Kelsicle Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Has anyone tried magnetising the arm on Akhelian Guard to swap between Morrsarr and Ishlaen? Any tips on doing so? I was hoping it would be easy but the join isn’t a flat surface like the Thralls were Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerdkingdan Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Kelsicle said: Has anyone tried magnetising the arm on Akhelian Guard to swap between Morrsarr and Ishlaen? Any tips on doing so? I was hoping it would be easy but the join isn’t a flat surface like the Thralls were I looked at this, and then I determined I would only likely run small min units of Ishlean at the same time as Morrsarr, and decided wasn't worth the effort, Also thinking to use two different eel schemes. With that said I've heard of people doing it. and it takes really small magnets. Edited June 25, 2019 by Nerdkingdan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acid_Nine Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 So, what do people think of having a tide caster shooting arcane corrosion from the back? I have a tide caster but since she cannot exactlt keep up with an all eel list I am planning on keeping her in the back corner to cover back objectives and plink off the closest units with mortal wounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valenswift Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 Played my first game of Meeting Engagement last night and we decided to use the first battleplan. My IDK list was Spearhead - Tidecaster Naquas Barionic, Mistress of Shoals, 10 Reavers, Quicksilver Swords Main body - Soulrender, Lotann, 10 Thralls, 3 Ishlaen Guard Rearguard - 10 Thralls, 3 Morsarr Guard I was playing against Khorne. My idea for the spearhead was have the tidecaster and reavers rush the objective and use some ranged attacks to score points in the first battle round. I didn't manage to get my endless spell off but the reavers took out one bloodletter with shooting and their 8" movement meant they scored me the maximum 5 points in battle round 1 (who would have thought reaver would ever be useful :P) Going second again in battle round 2 I countered his charge with his bloodletters, who took out half the reavers, by retreating with them and flanking either side with eels and thralls. This again won me the objective and wound points making it 10-0 Strangely high tide was the best round for Khorne as he let me go first so he could use the quicksilver swords and it meant a lot of my units were out of position for charges. Khorne managed to get 5 points here as he rushed the middle and took out my first eels whilst his Daemonic Prince general survived by 1 wound. Khorne went first in the final battle round and although he got all the charges as well as summoning 5 bloodletters and 5 hounds thanks to blood tithe and Karanak, he hadn't accounted for the Morsarr spears special ability and I took out his general before anyone attacked in the combat phase. Unbelievably the Morsarr rolled 3 twice to fail a charge in my turn which would have undoubtedly resulted in me taking the objective but ultimately it didn't matter as I got 23 wounds to his 21 and the final score was 12-8 on VP. I really like the way meeting engagements play, there is a lot of strategy to deciding your 3 contingents but also I feel the lists can be very thematic, helping tell the story of the battle. When composing my list I could just imagine the Tidecaster and Reavers storming onto the battlefield loosing arrows and Eldritch energies, with the Akhelian nobles coming in the rearguard after the minions had taken the brunt of the Chaos Daemons. After seeing no AoS or 40k being played as tournaments at Warhammerfest I'm sure this will definitely become the tournament standard their next year. With only 4 rounds and the way it scores, it feels like a cross between AoS and Shadespire and for me this is a fantastic way to play. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelven supremacy Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 9 hours ago, Acid_Nine said: So, what do people think of having a tide caster shooting arcane corrosion from the back? I have a tide caster but since she cannot exactlt keep up with an all eel list I am planning on keeping her in the back corner to cover back objectives and plink off the closest units with mortal wounds. I’ve been having this exact thought. Play with a double Tidecaster list, one as general which stays higher up the board and the other in the back corner (ideally surrounded by line of sight blocking terrain) to force the opponent to commit resources to stop 3-4 mortals a turn way away from any objectives. Some scenarios you will need the tidecaster further up the board (hero scoring ones for example) but otherwise it’s interesting. Imagine something like take and hold where you smack 4 mortal wounds a turn on a defensive player guarding their objective until they send forces way away from your objective just to stop your tidecaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denegaar Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 4 hours ago, valenswift said: Played my first game of Meeting Engagement last night and we decided to use the first battleplan. My IDK list was Spearhead - Tidecaster Naquas Barionic, Mistress of Shoals, 10 Reavers, Quicksilver Swords Main body - Soulrender, Lotann, 10 Thralls, 3 Ishlaen Guard Rearguard - 10 Thralls, 3 Morsarr Guard I was playing against Khorne. My idea for the spearhead was have the tidecaster and reavers rush the objective and use some ranged attacks to score points in the first battle round. I didn't manage to get my endless spell off but the reavers took out one bloodletter with shooting and their 8" movement meant they scored me the maximum 5 points in battle round 1 (who would have thought reaver would ever be useful :P) Going second again in battle round 2 I countered his charge with his bloodletters, who took out half the reavers, by retreating with them and flanking either side with eels and thralls. This again won me the objective and wound points making it 10-0 Strangely high tide was the best round for Khorne as he let me go first so he could use the quicksilver swords and it meant a lot of my units were out of position for charges. Khorne managed to get 5 points here as he rushed the middle and took out my first eels whilst his Daemonic Prince general survived by 1 wound. Khorne went first in the final battle round and although he got all the charges as well as summoning 5 bloodletters and 5 hounds thanks to blood tithe and Karanak, he hadn't accounted for the Morsarr spears special ability and I took out his general before anyone attacked in the combat phase. Unbelievably the Morsarr rolled 3 twice to fail a charge in my turn which would have undoubtedly resulted in me taking the objective but ultimately it didn't matter as I got 23 wounds to his 21 and the final score was 12-8 on VP. I really like the way meeting engagements play, there is a lot of strategy to deciding your 3 contingents but also I feel the lists can be very thematic, helping tell the story of the battle. When composing my list I could just imagine the Tidecaster and Reavers storming onto the battlefield loosing arrows and Eldritch energies, with the Akhelian nobles coming in the rearguard after the minions had taken the brunt of the Chaos Daemons. After seeing no AoS or 40k being played as tournaments at Warhammerfest I'm sure this will definitely become the tournament standard their next year. With only 4 rounds and the way it scores, it feels like a cross between AoS and Shadespire and for me this is a fantastic way to play. That's great to hear! How do you rate your units in this mode? I was thinking of a similar list, dropping Lotann and the Swords for another unit. Spearhead: Tidecaster, Reavers Main Body: Soulrender, Thralls, Ishlaen, Allopex Rearguard: Thralls, Morrsarr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koradrel of Chrace Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 (edited) So after some tweeking, this is the army I plan on taking to a local tournament this weekend. Any advice would be appreciated. ++ **Pitched Battle** 2,000 (Order - Idoneth Deepkin) [2,000pts] ++ + Leader + Isharann Soulscryer [130pts] Isharann Tidecaster [100pts]: 3. Dritchleech, 6. Arcane Corrosion Isharann Tidecaster [100pts]: 1. Steed of Tides Volturnos [280pts]: General - Akhelian + Battleline + Akhelian Ishlaen Guard [140pts]: 3 Ishlaen Guard, Akhelian Guard Command Group Akhelian Ishlaen Guard [140pts]: 3 Ishlaen Guard Akhelian Morrsarr Guard [510pts]: 3x 3 Morrsarr Guard, Akhelian Guard Command Group Akhelian Morrsarr Guard [340pts]: 2x 3 Morrsarr Guard, Akhelian Guard Command Group Namarti Thralls [130pts]: 10 Namarti Thralls + Other + Namarti Reavers [130pts]: 10 Namarti Reavers + Allegiance + Allegiance . Idoneth Deepkin: Dhom-hain, Forgotten Nightmares, Gloomtide Shipwreck, Isharann Rituals, Tides of Death + Game Options + Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost ++ Total: [2,000pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe Ahkelian Crusade (BBCode) Edited June 26, 2019 by Koradrel of Chrace Forgot list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acid_Nine Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 7 hours ago, Aelven supremacy said: I’ve been having this exact thought. Play with a double Tidecaster list, one as general which stays higher up the board and the other in the back corner (ideally surrounded by line of sight blocking terrain) to force the opponent to commit resources to stop 3-4 mortals a turn way away from any objectives. Some scenarios you will need the tidecaster further up the board (hero scoring ones for example) but otherwise it’s interesting. Imagine something like take and hold where you smack 4 mortal wounds a turn on a defensive player guarding their objective until they send forces way away from your objective just to stop your tidecaster. I don't really see it causing so much damage that the enemy has to rush her, but still 3-4 mortal wounds on the closest enemy with good positioning is just icing on the cake. Since I have an extra relic with the battalion I have been considering using the augury shells as well. Since it does not say it's only unbinding for her spells, I imagine I can use it to stop the unbinding of my archmage further down the field on a critical turn. i only wish I had ten points extra for a balewind, just to give her riptide ability some extra range too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripchimeras Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 2 hours ago, Koradrel of Chrace said: So after some tweeking, this is the army I plan on taking to a local tournament this weekend. Any advice would be appreciated. ++ **Pitched Battle** 2,000 (Order - Idoneth Deepkin) [2,000pts] ++ + Leader + Isharann Soulscryer [130pts] Isharann Tidecaster [100pts]: 3. Dritchleech, 6. Arcane Corrosion Isharann Tidecaster [100pts]: 1. Steed of Tides Volturnos [280pts]: General - Akhelian + Battleline + Akhelian Ishlaen Guard [140pts]: 3 Ishlaen Guard, Akhelian Guard Command Group Akhelian Ishlaen Guard [140pts]: 3 Ishlaen Guard Akhelian Morrsarr Guard [510pts]: 3x 3 Morrsarr Guard, Akhelian Guard Command Group Akhelian Morrsarr Guard [340pts]: 2x 3 Morrsarr Guard, Akhelian Guard Command Group Namarti Thralls [130pts]: 10 Namarti Thralls + Other + Namarti Reavers [130pts]: 10 Namarti Reavers + Allegiance + Allegiance . Idoneth Deepkin: Dhom-hain, Forgotten Nightmares, Gloomtide Shipwreck, Isharann Rituals, Tides of Death + Game Options + Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost ++ Total: [2,000pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe Ahkelian Crusade (BBCode) 1.07 kB · 3 downloads Without knowing anything about you or your model collection, or exactly what your goals for the tourney are I'd say it looks like the list would do pretty well in a tourney and would be pretty fun to use, but that the owner is either: A. Maxing out his deepkin model collection to field it or B. You really are trying to run a balanced all phases list, but still wanted to take advantage of a volturnos turn 3. Neither of those things are going to be a huge issue for you, or are even necessarily a bad thing depending on your goals. I think it is strong enough especially at a local one dayer that you are unlikely to find a lot of lists that are going to make you feel uncompetitive. If you are using all or most of your models in this list, I think you have nothing to worry about going in. But if you were looking at a little optimization and have the models for it see below: I think my primary concern with the list is that, while I think there is enough power here for you to generally do well, it has some elements that feel like they are running a a bit of a cross purposes giving the whole list a bit of a feeling like it is hanging in limbo between the two deepkin power builds unsure of which direction it wants to go. Your general choice and fairly large contingent of eels indicates you are playing an eel spam list, but your inclusion of multiple infantry units and 2 tidecasters looks like the makings of a flip-tide list. Not that you should feel you need to play 100% into 1 of those 2 "net lists" but just that it feels like you are kinda in a little bit of an awkward in between in that a few of your units might not get you a ton of use as the list is currently constructed. I think the infantry is basically going to just sit in your back court guarding objectives, and hoping the enemy doesn't have anything fast to run at them with, I don't think you have enough of it to really provide much support to the eels or put up much of a fight on its own. I could be wrong, but even more so then the limited infantry I suspect you are going to find the double tidecasters not really pulling their weight in this list. And honestly if you aren't planning on making one of them your general for flip tide, I really don't think tidecasters are particularly good especially when you are running so much speed. Max I'd personally be running 1, but really I would nix them entirely If you aren't going to flip the tide and if you want to have some magic to play with/be able to dispel things I'd honestly say you are better off going with either the wanderer mage or the stormcast mage that both come with that 1 time auto dispel ability if you have access to the models. I'd either try to get 1-2 more units of infantry and make the tidecaster your general, or abandon the infantry entirely and commit further to the eel spam with vulturnos. I like the fliptide because it preserves some semblance of army balance, but either way I think those changes put you in a situation where your army no longer has loose ends without a ton of utility. But again can't emphasize enough that your list is already perfectly fine for a local tourney and going to play strong I think. I don't want to dissuade you if you were hoping to test a bunch of different units, really had some fun things planned for the dual casters or are maxing out your collection here. I think no matter what if you've got your tactics down this list will play pretty well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelven supremacy Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 3 hours ago, Koradrel of Chrace said: So after some tweeking, this is the army I plan on taking to a local tournament this weekend. Any advice would be appreciated. ++ **Pitched Battle** 2,000 (Order - Idoneth Deepkin) [2,000pts] ++ + Leader + Isharann Soulscryer [130pts] Isharann Tidecaster [100pts]: 3. Dritchleech, 6. Arcane Corrosion Isharann Tidecaster [100pts]: 1. Steed of Tides Volturnos [280pts]: General - Akhelian + Battleline + Akhelian Ishlaen Guard [140pts]: 3 Ishlaen Guard, Akhelian Guard Command Group Akhelian Ishlaen Guard [140pts]: 3 Ishlaen Guard Akhelian Morrsarr Guard [510pts]: 3x 3 Morrsarr Guard, Akhelian Guard Command Group Akhelian Morrsarr Guard [340pts]: 2x 3 Morrsarr Guard, Akhelian Guard Command Group Namarti Thralls [130pts]: 10 Namarti Thralls + Other + Namarti Reavers [130pts]: 10 Namarti Reavers + Allegiance + Allegiance . Idoneth Deepkin: Dhom-hain, Forgotten Nightmares, Gloomtide Shipwreck, Isharann Rituals, Tides of Death + Game Options + Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost ++ Total: [2,000pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe Ahkelian Crusade (BBCode) 1.07 kB · 3 downloads To add totripchimera’s points, Dritchleech plus Arcane Corrosion on the same tidecaster puts it at cross purposes. One wants it held right back, the other further forward. Put Dritchleech on the Steed of Tides tidecaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koradrel of Chrace Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 Thanks for the feeback. I'm just starting AoS after getting a little miffed at the destruction of WHFB. I have about 15k High Elves from as far back as 5th, and I'm used to running more combined arms with fairly decent magic support. This was me collecting something close to what I used to use. So you're saying the Flip Tide list is closer to that approach? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripchimeras Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Koradrel of Chrace said: Thanks for the feeback. I'm just starting AoS after getting a little miffed at the destruction of WHFB. I have about 15k High Elves from as far back as 5th, and I'm used to running more combined arms with fairly decent magic support. This was me collecting something close to what I used to use. So you're saying the Flip Tide list is closer to that approach? Yeah, because it basically forces you to take a semi-balanced list in return for 1 humongous benefit getting to choose before the game knowing who your opponent is whether you want ASF on turn 2 or turn 3 and if fuethen getting to charge and fight on turn 1 going into asf turn 2. Fuethan is the natural pairing I think, but domhiem is probably good with it too. Without it I think if you are min/maxing there is very little reason at all to take a balanced combined arms list otherwise, but I think the benefits of being able to flip the tides are large enough that as long as you still invest in a sizeable eel contingent (like you are already doing) it is arguably as good if not better then full on eel spam. I was a high elf player since 6th myself too so I think it is a pretty natural jump from how they played to this. I think eel spam is going to be more forgiving, but flip tide is going to give you more versatility and sounds like its much closer to how you would have played combined arms high elves, though in the end you are still going to need to lean heavily on the eels to do a lot of your dirty work. Its like in 8th if there had been no option to play pheonix guard bunker, you would have been forced to take a dragon prince death star no matter what and you would have just been deciding whether to take maxed out pheonixes + star dragon, all cav core + DP death star (eel spam with vulturnos) or still a DP death star but no dragon and only 1 frost phoenix, and some shooting behind it lol. At the core you are going to be pretty eel dependent offensively in competitive play no matter what unfortunately, because we don't really have an alternative build like high elves did, but luckily thanks to flip tide I think we can play at a "balanced" looking list without sacrificing too much. Unfortunately despite being a magic infused race, our magic options are really poor, so you are going to have difficulty trying to mirror the high elf playstyle in that regard. I our magic is going to be mostly "token". Issue is our tidecaster is expensive (comparatively) and gets no bonuses of any kind, while our level 4 archmage equivalent (aspect of sea) is just too costly to do anything but build your entire list around it, but isn't good enough as a centrepiece model to do that imo. Edited June 26, 2019 by tripchimeras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koradrel of Chrace Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 Thanks for the info dump. I've gotten more out of talking to you than reading through all 58 pages of this thread! So, with our discussion in mind, how does this look? ++ **Pitched Battle** 2,000 (Order - Idoneth Deepkin) [2,000pts] ++ + Leader + Akhelian King [240pts]: 4. Ignax's Scales, Bladed Polearm Isharann Soulscryer [130pts] Isharann Tidecaster [100pts]: 1. Steed of Tides, Born From Agony, General - Isharann + Battleline + Namarti Reavers [130pts]: 10 Namarti Reavers Namarti Thralls [130pts]: 10 Namarti Thralls Namarti Thralls [130pts]: 10 Namarti Thralls + Other + Akhelian Allopexes [120pts]: Akhelian Allopex, Razorshell Harpoon Launcher Akhelian Morrsarr Guard [510pts]: 3x 3 Morrsarr Guard, Akhelian Guard Command Group Akhelian Morrsarr Guard [510pts]: 3x 3 Morrsarr Guard, Akhelian Guard Command Group + Allegiance + Allegiance . Idoneth Deepkin: Forgotten Nightmares, Fuethán, Isharann Rituals, Tides of Death + Game Options + Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost + Realm of Origin + Realm of Origin: Origin: Aqshy ++ Total: [2,000pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelsicle Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 @Koradrel of ChraceThis is very similar to the list that I plan to run once I get things built up. I think it’s a good balance between the eel spam for the punch and infantry for objective holding. Also let’s me bring a couple a sharks which I hope I can get some work out of. Haven’t settled in spells etc yet though: Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin- Enclave: FuethanLeadersVulturnos, High King of the Deep (280)Isharann Soulscryer (130)Isharann Tidecaster (100)- GeneralBattleline10 x Namarti Thralls (130)10 x Namarti Thralls (130)10 x Namarti Reavers (130)Units9 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (510)3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)2 x Akhelian Allopexes (240)10 x Eternal Guard (70)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 134 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koradrel of Chrace Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 Interesting. You'll have to tell me how the Allopexes do as a unit. I think they might work better separate as MSU chaff, but I don't have enough experience yet with the new system to really say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelsicle Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 My plan is to use them as choppy chaff to try clear screens/tank shooting. They can take a hit and pack a pretty decent punch so I think they’ll be useful for escorting thralls up the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denegaar Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 4 hours ago, Kelsicle said: My plan is to use them as choppy chaff to try clear screens/tank shooting. They can take a hit and pack a pretty decent punch so I think they’ll be useful for escorting thralls up the board. Have you tried to play them as two units of 1 Shark each? It has to be painful rolling a 6 in Battleshock when you lose one of them. Plus, being two diferent dudes you can send them in different directions and stop two units of doing things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelsicle Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 24 minutes ago, Denegaar said: Have you tried to play them as two units of 1 Shark each? It has to be painful rolling a 6 in Battleshock when you lose one of them. Plus, being two diferent dudes you can send them in different directions and stop two units of doing things. I generally try to keep them in the 18” bravery bubble from the king, so the Battleshock isn’t usually a concern. I do agree though bravery is one of their weaknesses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripchimeras Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 (edited) 16 hours ago, Koradrel of Chrace said: Thanks for the info dump. I've gotten more out of talking to you than reading through all 58 pages of this thread! So, with our discussion in mind, how does this look? ++ **Pitched Battle** 2,000 (Order - Idoneth Deepkin) [2,000pts] ++ + Leader + Akhelian King [240pts]: 4. Ignax's Scales, Bladed Polearm Isharann Soulscryer [130pts] Isharann Tidecaster [100pts]: 1. Steed of Tides, Born From Agony, General - Isharann + Battleline + Namarti Reavers [130pts]: 10 Namarti Reavers Namarti Thralls [130pts]: 10 Namarti Thralls Namarti Thralls [130pts]: 10 Namarti Thralls + Other + Akhelian Allopexes [120pts]: Akhelian Allopex, Razorshell Harpoon Launcher Akhelian Morrsarr Guard [510pts]: 3x 3 Morrsarr Guard, Akhelian Guard Command Group Akhelian Morrsarr Guard [510pts]: 3x 3 Morrsarr Guard, Akhelian Guard Command Group + Allegiance + Allegiance . Idoneth Deepkin: Forgotten Nightmares, Fuethán, Isharann Rituals, Tides of Death + Game Options + Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost + Realm of Origin + Realm of Origin: Origin: Aqshy ++ Total: [2,000pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe Looks good, def let us know how the tourney goes and what you think of the list afterwards. I have a semi-similar list going right now, and one thing I am thinking about is whether the king/volturnos is worth it when not the general. I really want him to be, and I've had some success from his passive buffs and decent killiness so far, but I think there are better options for his points honestly, I just really don't want to build more eels haha (I think its something you are better off rolling with this weekend as is and seeing how you feel about it, then switching up your list again). I haven't seen a ton of examples yet where the new ghb points have actually affected army composition for us, but your new list here is actually a great example. When the allopex was 20 more and the morrsarr were 10 less, I suspect that you would not have considered including the allopex because it wouldn't have fit those last points you had. But as it is I see from your first list you replaced your 6 ishlaen with 1 allopex and 3 morrsarr, I think that is a trade-off where I can see arguing in either direction, which is exciting for sharks getting some use haha. Certainly the second unit of morrsarr is far more effective as 9 then as 6, but the ishlaen are going to be appreciated more then the allopex. But you can't afford both ishlaen and morrsarr, so you have to make the choice between 6 ishlaen vs 3 morrsarr and the shark. I think its a great example of how at first glance the GHB pt changes don't seem to effect our lists much at all, but as we are filling out those last 200-300pts I think we may see situations like this where things we didn't consider before seem to become a possibility. I think when you have more time to playtest after this tournament, running each of those 2 combos in a couple of games would be interesting to see which you feel gives you more versatility, I don't think its obvious which is going to do better for you from just theory hammering your list. Edited June 27, 2019 by tripchimeras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripchimeras Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 (edited) The more I play with the listbuilding post GHB, the more I realize I don't think the Deepkin pt changes were off by quite as much as I initially supposed. I think the sharks become a chaffe mainstay at 100pts, but at 120pts there are obviously situations where they make sense to fill in a list, which means GW was at least semi successful at bringing them into competitive play. They shouldn't be a mainstay, GW designed them in fluff and game intending them to be a support unit, and I think they function pretty well that way at 120. I think the trick is that I consistently have found myself with 100-120 extra points after core list construction, which makes allopax a good choice to fill those last points. I think the turtle similarly becomes more of an option. For a flip-tide list (I keep using it as the example because that is how I put most of my energy, in list building and playing), I think the core you want is approximately 18 eels, 3 units of infantry, a soulscryer, and tidecaster. While I think those 18 eels don't have to be ALL morrsarr, assuming they are leaves you with 360pts. Guess what fits extraordinarily neatly into that 360? A Leviadon. The equation here is a leviadon vs 6 morrsarr vs 1 king and an allopax vs 2 more infantry units and 100pts for allies vs 6 ishlaen guard and 80pts for allies. I think all of a sudden you have a lot of different directions you can go, and the leviadon doesn't look WAY worse then the others. I think it still probably doesn't win for sheer efficiency, but I think its not going to significantly reduce the competitiveness of that list, its going to be on the margins. Compare this to the situation before when that same combo left us with 420pts remaining. At 420 in old points you could include a second soulscryer AND 6 morrsarr VS vulturnos and 1 allopex OR 1 infantry unit OR 3 ishlaen guard VS 3 units of infantry (or 2 units of our infantry plus 2 units of eternal guard) VS 9 Ishlaen Guard VS 1 Eidolan VS 1 leviadon with 40 deadpoints to spend on an endless spell for your tidecaster to never get off lol. There is no way if you are playing competitive you would EVER choose the leviadon in this situation, the eidolan, and no way you would choose the allopex over the extra infantry or eels when taking volturnos or king. Despite the list before the GHB having MORE pts leftover to spend, the chances the under-used units were getting chosen were way worse, because of the way the leftover non-core points worked out. This is very important, because every competitive list has a core that is required for it to function as a competitive list, but many of those lists don't require all 2000 pts to function. Flip tide is a perfect example in that the core of the list is approximately 1600pts. its in those 250-500pts after the core where small pt changes are really going to start making things matter, what can you fit in your list with those last points to be least wasteful and augment your efficiency. Its hard to notice how small changes effect this at first glance, and I was definitely quick to judge in this regard. But as I am building lists for Deepkin, I am consistently finding myself in a sweetspot with points left where some of our much maligned units look far more attractive then they ever did before. If you are looking to avoid any inefficiency in your list, I think you still may end up skipping them, but I think the gap is small enough now that even someone looking to do really well in a tourney can likely take one of these options without seeing a huge dip, and I think that is a much better place for us then I initially thought. Edited June 27, 2019 by tripchimeras 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelven supremacy Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 9 minutes ago, tripchimeras said: The more I play with the listbuilding post GHB, the more I realize I don't think the Deepkin pt changes were off by quite as much as I initially supposed. I think the sharks become a chaffe mainstay at 100pts, but at 120pts there are obviously situations where they make sense to fill in a list, which means GW was at least semi successful at bringing them into competitive play. They shouldn't be a mainstay, GW designed them in fluff and game intending them to be a support unit, and I think they function pretty well that way at 120. I think the trick is that I consistently have found myself with 100-120 extra points after core list construction, which makes allopax a good choice to fill those last points. I think the turtle similarly becomes more of an option. For a flip-tide list (I keep using it as the example because that is how I put most of my energy, in list building and playing), I think the core you want is approximately 18 eels, 3 units of infantry, a soulscryer, and tidecaster. While I think those 18 eels don't have to be ALL morrsarr, assuming they are leaves you with 360pts. Guess what fits extraordinarily neatly into that 360? A Leviadon. The equation here is a leviadon vs 6 morrsarr vs 1 king and an allopax vs 2 more infantry units and 100pts for allies probably. I think all of a sudden you have a lot of different directions you can go, and the leviadon doesn't look WAY worse then the others. I think it still probably doesn't win for sheer efficiency, but I think its not going to significantly reduce the competitiveness of that list, its going to be on the margins. Compare this to the situation before when that same combo left us with 420pts remaining. At 420 in old points you could include a second soulscryer AND 6 morrsarr VS vulturnos and 1 allopex OR 1 infantry unit OR 3 ishlaen guard VS 3 units of infantry (or 2 units of our infantry plus 2 units of eternal guard) VS 9 Ishlaen Guard VS 1 leviadon with 40 deadpoints to spend on an endless spell for your tidecaster to never get off lol. There is no way if you are playing competitive you would EVER choose the leviadon in this situation, and no way you would choose the allopex over the extra infantry or eels when taking volturnos or king. Despite the list before the GHB having MORE pts leftover to spend, the chances the under-used units were getting chosen were way worse, because of the way the leftover non-core points worked out. This is very important, because every competitive list has a core that is required for it to function as a competitive list, but many of those lists don't require all 2000 pts to function. Flip tide is a perfect example in that the core of the list is approximately 1600pts. its in those 250-500pts after the core where small pt changes are really going to start making things matter, what can you fit in your list with those last points to be least wasteful and augment your efficiency. Its hard to notice how small changes effect this at first glance, and I was definitely quick to judge in this regard. But as I am building lists for Deepkin, I am consistently finding myself in a sweetspot with points left where some of our much maligned units look far more attractive then they ever did before. If you are looking to avoid any inefficiency in your list, I think you still may end up skipping them, but I think the gap is small enough now that even someone looking to do really well in a tourney can likely take one of these options without seeing a huge dip, and I think that is a much better place for us then I initially thought. Excellent post. I have defaulted to an extra tidecaster and also always worry about bodies on the table so had not noticed. It does make me immediately think though that 350 is about how much the Storm should cost... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koradrel of Chrace Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 I agree as well. There were a couple initial attemps I made that included a Leviadon as well. If I had the model I might have pursued those a little more. I think if you're going to use the Leviadon though, the Akhelian Corps battalion is now looking significantly more attractive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripchimeras Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Aelven supremacy said: Excellent post. I have defaulted to an extra tidecaster and also always worry about bodies on the table so had not noticed. It does make me immediately think though that 350 is about how much the Storm should cost... Completely agree. I think 350-360 is the range that both the eidolons would get some use in, and the Turtle while I think it is viable now, if eidolans go down to 350-360 it'd need to be 300-320 to remain viable. I think at those levels everything in our army would see some competitive play. You still wouldn't see any of the under-used stuff in every list, but you would see all of them in one list or another depending on space left over after the core-list is created. On a related side note I got in 2 games post GHB rules changes where I took the aspect of the sea after the 20pt reduction, and I think that guy is so close to having rules that work its infuriating, but the spell ranges on his stuff are so insanely bad for where he wants to be on the table. I think the 12 inch range would have worked if we were playing warhammer where spell casting happened after movement, but because it has to happen at the start of the phase it takes too long for that spell to become useful and so close to combat is a dangerous place to be for such an expensive caster without a mortal wound save. I think if you extended the bubble on his debuff spell to 24 inches he is viable in that high 300-low 400 range, but as is his rules don't really work as intended, and I think at 350-360 even you would be likely to see the storm more often at the same price-point for the same reason. Edited June 27, 2019 by tripchimeras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 Imo the lev and the Eidolons would need to go down to 300 and the lev perhaps even lower. They‘re a handicap if you pick them 😕 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koradrel of Chrace Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 Even the Storm one? I feel like in a more infantry heavy list it could still be efficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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