AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[tripchimeras]

14 minutes ago, Aelven supremacy said:

How do people in general manage to maximise their turn 3 if they are running an Akhelian King list?  Every time I try I wish I had tidecaster and flipped to get turn 2 high tide.   Only a handful of opponents/scenarios favour turn 3 high tide (nagash on take and hold comes to mind...)

So much this!  I understand why its the combo that occures to everyone first, but turh 3 is so very far away and our list is so glass cannony.  To make it work you have to put all of your eggs in that one basket with very little space for contingency, and I am just not convinced at all that that the combo is even needed for the most part.  The eels are killing almost everything with few exceptions without the kings help.  That being said I think maybe the real benefit to that list is being able to skip the thrall/reaver battleline entirely and just go all out on eels. 

I am of the opinion that flip tide list is the stronger competitive play.  There are situations when the no thrall eel spam is better, but for the most part those situations exist in a space where the deepkin flip tide list has the advantage as well, just not as big of one.  The flip tide list is far more versatile in my opinion, and gives you contingencies when you run into something unexpected.  For example in the situation you mention where third turn high tide is prefered, you just don't flip the tide.  Your 18 -21 eels are still going to be nearly as deadly as the all out eel spam was.  And I think the thralls/reavers in your backline are great for holding objectives on your side of the board and there are situations where the thralls are going to be much appreciated (hordes).  Its just more balanced and especially in a tourney setting a little bit of balance is needed for to stay competitive in marginal/coin flip matchups.

 

Edit: also note that the last deepkin list to take 1st in a tourney was a flip-tide list.  If anyone is interested to see it in action I know the Dimensional Cascade youtube channel streamed table 1 of that tourney, and the deepkin list that won just so happened to be on table one for the last 3 games, so you can see how he used it.  I think the fyreslayer matchup was the most impressive,  as I think that is a negative matchup for us normally.  He def lucked up on not drawing FEC as a matchup, but everyone (including FEC) has a matchup like that, so winning a tourney is always going to require a little matchup luck.  He was a really good player regardless and I learned a lot from watching those streams.

Edited June 19, 2019 by tripchimeras

[Aelven supremacy]

19 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:

So much this!  I understand why its the combo that occures to everyone first, but turh 3 is so very far away and our list is so glass cannony.  To make it work you have to put all of your eggs in that one basket with very little space for contingency, and I am just not convinced at all that that the combo is even needed for the most part.  The eels are killing almost everything with few exceptions without the kings help.  That being said I think maybe the real benefit to that list is being able to skip the thrall/reaver battleline entirely and just go all out on eels. 

I am of the opinion that flip tide list is the stronger competitive play.  There are situations when the no thrall eel spam is better, but for the most part those situations exist in a space where the deepkin flip tide list has the advantage as well, just not as big of one.  The flip tide list is far more versatile in my opinion, and gives you contingencies when you run into something unexpected.  For example in the situation you mention where third turn high tide is prefered, you just don't flip the tide.  Your 18 -21 eels are still going to be nearly as deadly as the all out eel spam was.  And I think the thralls/reavers in your backline are great for holding objectives on your side of the board and there are situations where the thralls are going to be much appreciated (hordes).  Its just more balanced and especially in a tourney setting a little bit of balance is needed for to stay competitive in marginal/coin flip matchups.

 

Edit: also note that the last deepkin list to take 1st in a tourney was a flip-tide list.  If anyone is interested to see it in action I know the Dimensional Cascade youtube channel streamed table 1 of that tourney, and the deepkin list that won just so happened to be on table one for the last 3 games, so you can see how he used it.  I think the fyreslayer matchup was the most impressive,  as I think that is a negative matchup for us normally.  He def lucked up on not drawing FEC as a matchup, but everyone (including FEC) has a matchup like that, so winning a tourney is always going to require a little matchup luck.  He was a really good player regardless and I learned a lot from watching those streams.

Will check them out, good shout.   I used to use tidecaster but wanted to try build a non-tidecaster list.  All I find is that spamming Ishlaen is needed to tank until turn 3 and then Volturnos adding on enough attacks to them gets through high armour through weight of dice.  Wondering if anyone has an alternative?

[tripchimeras]

55 minutes ago, Aelven supremacy said:

Will check them out, good shout.   I used to use tidecaster but wanted to try build a non-tidecaster list.  All I find is that spamming Ishlaen is needed to tank until turn 3 and then Volturnos adding on enough attacks to them gets through high armour through weight of dice.  Wondering if anyone has an alternative?

 

Interesting so you go all Ishlaen and no morrsarr?

Have you tried spamming to death massive morrsarr units with deepstriking and using turn 3 as more of a luxury?  Wonder if that might work out just on sheer weight of mortals and models?  Volturnos is pretty useful even without relying on the command ability, and while morrsarr are better off with ASF, if you have enough of them I would think you could weather the combat to still get the killing in.  Haven't tried it myself but I would imagine against a lot of opponents it works.  I think the risk you run is getting bogged down, and if you don't kill enough you are pretty much screwed. 

Alternatively maybe throwing them out in waves might work?  Holding back your biggest unit with volt perhaps holding some objectives on your end, to come in and finish things off on turn 3.  Like if you have enough of them, using them as suicide bombers isn't such a bad thing, they are durable enough to force the enemy to devote resources to killing them even after the charge is over.

Assuming you are always taking volturnos and 1 soulscryer (assuming new ghb pts) that gives you 1590 to spend entirely on eel spam.  That's 27 morrsarr.  Ram a unit of 9 in through deepstrike on turn 1 and do as much damage as you possibly can, force opponent to put attention immediately on dealing with them, turn 2 maybe come in with 6 if you need to keep them distracted or need to cover your primary force, then turn 3 come in with 2-3 units of 6 depending on what you did on turn 2 and volturnos since with asf you don't need to worry about i go you go.  Idk something like that.  Only reason I might split them up a little like that is for objective coverage.  Seems like itd be pretty good, maybe a little too point and click for my tastes, but I feel like if you are going to go  the king list route, just going all in on raw voltaic power might serve better then trying to cover yourself with the high armour, play the strengths of the combo to the max and hope the strengths are so strong that the extreme weaknesses don't even come into play lol.

 

edit: The reason I haven't tried the entirely eel spam build personally is just a lack of models.  I have 18 morrsarr right now, so can't pull this off, and I haven't seen any tourney results or streams that had a deepkin going morrsarr spam this hard.  Most I've seen 21 morrsarr.  The king lists I've seen have had some ishlaens in them to hold the enemy in place, and I'm meh on it, but that's why I wonder if maybe just going all in offense, no holds barred might end up working better

 

Edited June 19, 2019 by tripchimeras

[Aelven supremacy]

32 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:

 

Interesting so you go all Ishlaen and no morrsarr?

Have you tried spamming to death massive morrsarr units with deepstriking and using turn 3 as more of a luxury?  Wonder if that might work out just on sheer weight of mortals and models?  Volturnos is pretty useful even without relying on the command ability, and while morrsarr are better off with ASF, if you have enough of them I would think you could weather the combat to still get the killing in.  Haven't tried it myself but I would imagine against a lot of opponents it works.  I think the risk you run is getting bogged down, and if you don't kill enough you are pretty much screwed. 

Alternatively maybe throwing them out in waves might work?  Holding back your biggest unit with volt perhaps holding some objectives on your end, to come in and finish things off on turn 3.  Like if you have enough of them, using them as suicide bombers isn't such a bad thing, they are durable enough to force the enemy to devote resources to killing them even after the charge is over.

Assuming you are always taking volturnos and 1 soulscryer (assuming new ghb pts) that gives you 1590 to spend entirely on eel spam.  That's 27 morrsarr.  Ram a unit of 9 in through deepstrike on turn 1 and do as much damage as you possibly can, force opponent to put attention immediately on dealing with them, turn 2 maybe come in with 6 if you need to keep them distracted or need to cover your primary force, then turn 3 come in with 2-3 units of 6 depending on what you did on turn 2 and volturnos since with asf you don't need to worry about i go you go.  Idk something like that.  Only reason I might split them up a little like that is for objective coverage.  Seems like itd be pretty good, maybe a little too point and click for my tastes, but I feel like if you are going to go  the king list route, just going all in on raw voltaic power might serve better then trying to cover yourself with the high armour, play the strengths of the combo to the max and hope the strengths are so strong that the extreme weaknesses don't even come into play lol.

 

edit: The reason I haven't tried the entirely eel spam build personally is just a lack of models.  I have 18 morrsarr right now, so can't pull this off, and I haven't seen any tourney results or streams that had a deepkin going morrsarr spam this hard.  Most I've seen 21 morrsarr.  The king lists I've seen have had some ishlaens in them to hold the enemy in place, and I'm meh on it, but that's why I wonder if maybe just going all in offense, no holds barred might end up working better

 

I like this take on it. In my mind I had been thinking to play cagey turn one (with Ishlaen allowing that more than Morrsarr) then just play for the double turn 2 into 3 and go for the Volturnos bang.   Waves of Morrsarr would be tasty though...  

 

Overall the biggest weakness of going so extreme on the turn 3 focus is that it is really hard to play the objectives game as everything is focused on killing your opponent in one turn in the middle of the game. As you said, this highlights one of the biggest, yet relatively unnoted, strengths of tidecaster fuethan of having run and charge on 3 out of 5 turns which enables good objective play too.

[Acid_Nine]

Honestly when I play at a 1,000 point level I always see high tide as a bonus. Sure, it would be nice to perfectly align myself to hit hard turn 3, but sometimes you just gotta play the game in the moment and react, hitting where you can and setting up for another attack later. I may need to practice it more to be honest, as I usually use flood tide as the more important turn to get where I want.

[tripchimeras]

Lots of talk on general threads about ghb pt changes, and my opinion and consensus seems to be that almost nothing has changed for us.  Power builds basically lose a soulscryer or 3 eels and that's about it.  However, it hasn't stopped me from trying to re-examine all of our underutilized units in the hopes of finding anything new that works competitively at the new points.  Anyone finding new wrinkles they plan on trying for deepkin now that they weren't considering before? My thoughts on one is below.

While I think the sharks are close, they really only work in the exact same massed role Morrsarr filled, and the Morrsarr still fill it better.  So while I think you actually might be able to fill a moderately competitive list with them now, I think they make less sense then some of the things that got less help, since you are not actually altering your army construction, you are replacing one unit with another, slightly worse one, that fills basically identical role. 

I keep trying to make an infantry heavy list with soulrenders since they got such a big point drop and everytime I look at it, it looks like a logistical nightmare that would not play well on the table.  I just can't wrap my head around thrall units larger then 10 with the 32mm base size combined with short attack range.  Ironically the only list I've come up with so far that I don't instantly hate involves either an eidolon or a leviadon interchangeably, and in both cases (hilariously) the list was already legal before the ghb changes and in fact was slightly cheaper... Why I didn't like it then, and like it now?  I have no idea, probably just desperation to play something a little different in my competitive focused group, and a renewed desire to make the underused models work.

Tidecaster (general)

soulscryer

10 thralls

10 thralls

10 thralls

6 Ishlaen Guard

12 Morrsarr Guard

Leviadon

Allies: 10 eternal guard

Cost before GHB: 1990  Cost after GHB: 2000 ( I know, it baffles me that this list sounds better to me now that it is actually more expensive haha)

OR remove the allies and the leviadon and add in the eidolan, the 2 essentially fill the same role in the list (make it harder to kill my stuff) with different pros/cons.  I think on first thought I like it a little more for leviadon, though the eidolon was the model I most wanted the GHB to make playable (I love its rules).

It is honestly same basic structure as the current  flip-tide power build.  You are basically losing 9 morrsarr plus some change  for 6 ishlaen guard and a leviadon or eidolan.  I think if you go Leviadon, there is a case for reducing morrsarr to 9 and kicking ishlaen to 9 since its buff is made for them, but idk, that will come with playtesting. What I like about this list variation is mostly that it has more balance.  There is a little more going on, there are more strategic ripples then traditional power builds for us.  It is lacking in raw power, and I think ultimately it is worse for that, but I think its good enough to be moderately competitive, so I may very well try it. Unfortunately though for me this exercise just went to show that, aside from helping me to look at the book with new eyes and maybe giving me a new thing to try while I recover from morrsarr fatigue, these changes have essentially done nothing to alter what the competitive builds look like in the book to my eyes.

Anyone else got any interesting builds the new pt changes have caused them to re-examine?  Even if that build, like mine, turns out to have been legal all along haha.  Would love to see if anyone thinks there is something new worth trying that we couldn't do before.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2019 by tripchimeras

[Drofnum]

The more I think about it I could actually see a use for a unit of 2 sharks.  I just dont know what I would drop from my current lists to get them and i'm not sure if they would be worth it still, but at 240 points they could be nice to have roaming around killing smaller heroes.

I expect I would find the 20 point drop still isnt enough to make them viable over Ishlaen though.

[kozokus]

Consider the akhelian Corp. +100 points -5 drops, extra artefact and CP. And a ****** reroll EACH PHASE for the leviathan! To run to shoot to charge to hit with the fins etc. Worth.

[tripchimeras]

5 hours ago, kozokus said:

Consider the akhelian Corp. +100 points -5 drops, extra artefact and CP. And a ****** reroll EACH PHASE for the leviathan! To run to shoot to charge to hit with the fins etc. Worth.

Nice call.  But I will say that it really depends on how much going second is actually important to you I think as Deepkin are one of the few armies that are less affected by first turn priority.  Its also not quite as simple as +100 pts for all of those benefits.  Its really +220pts if you take the min shark as min shark is still next to useless, and if you plan on making the sharks actually useful it becomes a little more complicated to determine the lost efficiency of replacing a unit of eels of 1 type or another with multiple sharks.  That is a considerable investment, and its not as simple as to calculate.  Additionally its not just whether 220 is worth the points (I agree with you that unlike before it probably is), its

A. Can I fit it to begin with without sacrificing the integrity of my list strategy

B. Is it better then what I could include if I'm not bound by it.

I think it depends on the list and your goals.  If you take a king list its certainly easier to fit then if you run traditional battleline, but I think the need to go second in the king list is not so great.  So imo from the perspective of power building its probably still not something worth taking.  From the perspective of things we can take while still being moderately competitive I think you make a good point that this is much more an option post GHB then it was prior to it.  I definitely think we can chalk this as a list building win for us.  If you aren't looking to win the whole tourney but want to be competitive in your games, or just want to go toe-to-toe with competitively minded friends, I definitely think our options have been opened a considerable amount, which is definitely more positive then the rule changes initially seemed.

 

As an aside on my previous post about new builds that are exciting me more then previously, I realized why I liked the build I listed more post release then I did pre-release.  I think I was making an analytical mistake in focusing too much on the fact that the build I liked was legal before too.  Yes, it was legal, but the point costs were more heavily weighted towards the support units in the list before, making it seem like an unaffordable indulgeance, while now with the power build costing more, the point costs are more heavily weighted then previously towards the offensive units.  So while the list is the same, you are giving up less for it in comparison to the other builds then you were before.  Something to keep in mind with the changes, that I missed in my previous post.  Still don't think the list is a power build, but like using a full akhelian Corp. I think it is competitively viable which is better then before.

Edited June 20, 2019 by tripchimeras

[Acid_Nine]

6 hours ago, kozokus said:

Consider the akhelian Corp. +100 points -5 drops, extra artefact and CP. And a ****** reroll EACH PHASE for the leviathan! To run to shoot to charge to hit with the fins etc. Worth.

Hey, that's the list I'm currently running! Leviadon, 2 squads of 6 morrsarr, 2 squads of 3 ishlaen, a shark, a king and a tide caster / archmage combo is what I'm planning on running at 2,000 points with dhom hain. Played one game with it so far and though I lost, it was due to me not understanding the mission and having terrible luck with the power orb.

 

in fact, the turtle saved my king from a storm eidolon with his cover save bubble, and helped to kill him after the king swung. I lost the objective because I was stupid, but to be honest the big turtle isn't half bad.

[kozokus]

2 hours ago, tripchimeras said:

min shark is still next to useless

Not so fast! There is quite a legend about shark beeing useless and needing support which i disagree a lot.  Sure the dammage output doesn't compare with Ishlaen but that is not the point. Here was my list for the last year : 

Volturnos + 2 Scriers (with various artifacts)

Akhelian corp with 6 +3 Morsarr and 6+3 Ishlaen Turtle and shark.

And it won me two 3-0, 24 man tournaments and made me go 4-1 in the London Blood Tithe 2019 (4-man team) only loosing to myself beeing dumb and unable to deploy  properly against a tzeentch player (Spoiler : ambushing is a self-trap)

I wont talk about the usual eel scryer volturnos package. For me the shark acted like a terrible nuisance for the opponent. He can't be ignored, still dish some dammage, eat 5 wounds caracter alive, fits where eel squad can't, shot at chaff along with the turtle for 9 3+/3+/- shots total, packs REND which you lack a lot, is a wonderful target to get +4 Rend2 Dammage3 attacks to eat thoses pesky armoured units andd finally is still a dangerous threat with 7 wounds attached to his back. 

Yes it can be seen asa downgrad from ishlaen with  unit stats, but it does things that ishlaen don't. 

(For the funny story, i once tryed to pack a unit of 3 but i had a terrible battleshock experience.)

The Turtle is another story which i have a lot to tell too.

[tripchimeras]

9 minutes ago, kozokus said:

Not so fast! There is quite a legend about shark beeing useless and needing support which i disagree a lot.  Sure the dammage output doesn't compare with Ishlaen but that is not the point. Here was my list for the last year : 

Volturnos + 2 Scriers (with various artifacts)

Akhelian corp with 6 +3 Morsarr and 6+3 Ishlaen Turtle and shark.

And it won me two 3-0, 24 man tournaments and made me go 4-1 in the London Blood Tithe 2019 (4-man team) only loosing to myself beeing dumb and unable to deploy  properly against a tzeentch player (Spoiler : ambushing is a self-trap)

I wont talk about the usual eel scryer volturnos package. For me the shark acted like a terrible nuisance for the opponent. He can't be ignored, still dish some dammage, eat 5 wounds caracter alive, fits where eel squad can't, shot at chaff along with the turtle for 9 3+/3+/- shots total, packs REND which you lack a lot, is a wonderful target to get +4 Rend2 Dammage3 attacks to eat thoses pesky armoured units andd finally is still a dangerous threat with 7 wounds attached to his back. 

Yes it can be seen asa downgrad from ishlaen with  unit stats, but it does things that ishlaen don't. 

(For the funny story, i once tryed to pack a unit of 3 but i had a terrible battleshock experience.)

The Turtle is another story which i have a lot to tell too.

Good point on the base size and character consumption.  Hadn't thought about the getting into tight spaces to single models.  That is definitely a bit of utility there that is nice.  I assume sharks in larger units have to have some kind of leadership bubble following them, or you need to have command points at the ready.  I definitely can picture 140pt (120 now) a model sharks just melting away on a bad roll after the first one died in combat lol.  I prefer the versatility of flip tide so haven't gotten as many king focused games in, and theory hammer def only gets you so far haha.  So definitely might try to use one for hero hunting in my next list and see if I prefer it to more eels.

Edited June 20, 2019 by tripchimeras

[Aelven supremacy]

4 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:

Good point on the base size and character consumption.  Hadn't thought about the getting into tight spaces to single models.  That is definitely a bit of utility there that is nice.  I assume sharks in larger units have to have some kind of leadership bubble following them, or you need to have command points at the ready.  I definitely can picture 140pt a model sharks just melting away on a bad roll after the first one died in combat lol.  I prefer the versatility of flip tide so haven't gotten as many king focused games in, and theory hammer def only gets you so far haha.  So definitely might try to use one for hero hunting in my next list and see if I prefer it to more eels.

I’ve played 5 sharks (one unit of 3, one of 2) + 9 Ishlaen in a king  build before.  Positioning is a nightmare as you are trying to maintain bravery buffs and then the kings command ability across all the units.  I used a soulscryer with liandras last lament to also help.   FEC ruined me but I managed well versus stormcast and skaven.   That turn 3 versus skaven I saved all my command points (and started off with plus 2) giving 5 extra attacks to every shark (the Ishlaen had all been wiped out as I had been using them to tank skaven shooting).  6 ferocious bites on every shark obliterated every unit in contact (stormfiends, clanrats, screaming bell, warp lightning cannon), I didn’t even need to roll for the fins or the men on top.  Even with that the game was still close as need to position carefully all the time limited my objective game significantly.  A one off shark could be interesting but I’d still go fuethan.

[Maddpainting]

With Sharks going downa nd Eels going up, i'd say they are balanced with each other now. But i feel the best use for Sharks (given how meta is right now, but might change after FEC/Skaven FAQ comes out soon), they should be played as single man units, MSU of sharks, 5 single mans to support other units and to force attacks on them from your other units, also uits like FEC Terror cant kill a unit of them, position it so he wants to fight 1 or 2 of your sharks and waste 70% its damage on a single target or 2.

I'm going to try MSU sharks soon (in comps) and i'll let you know how it works in practice and not on paper. But i also normally play with the Turtle, IDK how i feel about dropping it out of my list, its one of my favorite units (I normall play Namarti Corps + 12 Eels, Turtle, Scyer x2, Tidecaster)

[Acid_Nine]

Honestly the biggest change is going to be placing terrain for our shpwrecks. No more blocking movement lanes I think, just being annoying.

 

I think it's time to buy those last two boxes of eels and completing the akhelian core

[Acid_Nine]

Double post do do do

Edited June 21, 2019 by Acid_Nine

[Drofnum]

22 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

Honestly the biggest change is going to be placing terrain for our shpwrecks. No more blocking movement lanes I think, just being annoying.

 

I think it's time to buy those last two boxes of eels and completing the akhelian core

What changed there?

[Acid_Nine]

6 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

What changed there?

I think it is now you cannot place terrain within 6" of each other, but don't quote me on that. I mostly got that from the general discussion thread.

 

[Drofnum]

Just now, Acid_Nine said:

I think it is now you cannot place terrain within 6" of each other, but don't quote me on that. I mostly got that from the general discussion thread.

 

Interesting if thats the case but its always been FAQ'ed that we cant place two ships within 6" of each other.  I need to see when I can get my hands on my GHB.

[Acid_Nine]

1 hour ago, Drofnum said:

Interesting if thats the case but its always been FAQ'ed that we cant place two ships within 6" of each other.  I need to see when I can get my hands on my GHB.

I think they mean like, 6 inches from  scatter terrain or something. And it has to be more than 16 inches from the edge

[Maddpainting]

They have posted on their Facebook (GW) that Faction terrain ignores those rules > Link 

It literally will otherwise make some faction terrain unplayable for all or most missions (Gnawholes, Loonshrine, etc..), given a good opponent (or a nasty one) you can place terrain in a way you ca not place faction terrain as well.

Edited June 22, 2019 by Maddpainting

[Acid_Nine]

4 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

They have posted on their Facebook (GW) that Faction terrain ignores those rules > Link 

It literally will otherwise make some faction terrain unplayable for all or most missions (Gnawholes, Loonshrine, etc..), given a good opponent (or a nasty one) you can place terrain in a way you ca not place faction terrain as well.

Oh! Well nevermind then. Time to buy a second ship! Mwahahahahahahaha.

[Kitsumy]

Where do it says it? I cant see the coment on my tablet.

 

But is a nice change. It was retarded otherwise. It woukd hurt us but would make others factions like sylvaneth unplayable.

[Maddpainting]

This link copy oddly. Here, this might help.

https://www.facebook.com/GWWarhammerAgeofSigmar/posts/1063248077205318

 

Nige James We're gonna need some rules clarifications for terrain, as it is now many factions terrain pieces are going to have a bad time. Gnawholes are broken completely.

Warhammer Age of Sigmar Hi Nige - this feedback has been passed on and it will be addressed. For now, we recommend carrying on using the rules as they appear in the battletome. Thanks!

Edited June 22, 2019 by Maddpainting
Added links

[Denegaar]

Have you tried Meeting Engagements already?