AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[Denegaar]

 

2 hours ago, DanielFM said:

Points have already leaked.

The bad:

-130 points Soulscryers. Harsh

-170 points Morrsar. Manageable

-Eidolon of the sea 420 points, Eidolon of the Storm 400. So -20 and unchanged. Still a hot pile of garbage.

The good:

-350 points Leviadon. 

-120 points Allopex. Both closer to be useable.

-80 points Soulrender

-130 points Namartis. Nothing groundbreaking, each 10 infantry guys pay for the Morrsar overcost.

Overall? Nothing will change. With a pure eel list, you lose 30-60 points. With a mixed list, you gain maybe 30-40 points. What use are those, an endless spell?

I hope other armies didn't get cuts across the board, because we will be left behind.

It's sad that an absolutely stunning model like the Eidolon is not efficiently usable in competitive games

Even though, eels got a minimum increase and the other units (Thralls, Reavers, Sharks) had become more useable.  Even the Octopus guy got cheaper haha

The Battleforce box that I just got became 70 pts cheaper  

[DragonRider]

Hello! Decided to join the community&Discussion. I was a long time Warhammer fantasy 7th & 8th edition player and after making the mistake of checking what's up with one of my favorite fantasy world's, I found myself buying Soul Wars set to gain the Nighthaunt half and hardcover core book; ouch.  GW has really stepped up on the look of minis along the years...

So having a Nighthaunt aka death army, I found myself thinking "Aah well, but of course I have to have an order army as well for, you know, teaching game to others and to have a "good guy army"" and I thought that either Sylvaneth OR Idoneth Deepkin look very nice and I bet would be a ton of fun to paint. However, can I play Idoneth Deepkin well/competitively if I'm not fielding Eidolon of Mathlan, Akhelian Leviadon and Akhelian Allopex? First two are budget concerns and third is that I don't really like the look of the shark. I love the look of Reavers, Thralls, Eels and Akhelian King(which is probably one of the most awesome looking units I've seen). I would not like to field an all eel army. Any word that more units would be coming? Would be cool to field, for example, crab cavalry, octopus/jellyfish units, Namarti heavy armour units etc, feels like options are fairly limited. Also, is the shipwreck a must have?

How would some 1000point lists look like? 

Also sorry if this is a wrong area to post this, I'm still investigating the forum

 

[Reuben Parker]

If you go full Mor’Phann infantry the list will at least be around 180 cheaper so an extra unit and render might squeeze in. 

I will be interested to see if thralls still get unit discount including the reduction as 30 at 330 would be quite reasonable. 

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Luckily, the units you don't like or have budget concerns are all either bad or just inefficient. Reavers are bad as well, but you can easily mix Thralls in with Eels and keep a competitive army, though maybe not a tournament-winner like with full Eel lists. Shipwreck is free points-wise: it won't hurt anything but your pocket-book. 

No word on new units unfortunately. Hopefully we get an Underworlds warband soon though, could use some more sculpts at the very least. 

[mmimzie]

3 minutes ago, Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll said:

Luckily, the units you don't like or have budget concerns are all either bad or just inefficient. Reavers are bad as well, but you can easily mix Thralls in with Eels and keep a competitive army, though maybe not a tournament-winner like with full Eel lists. Shipwreck is free points-wise: it won't hurt anything but your pocket-book. 

No word on new units unfortunately. Hopefully we get an Underworlds warband soon though, could use some more sculpts at the very least. 

Eels+ thralls do just as well as Just eels due to taking tide caster general and flipping the tides table.  So the eels+thralls were un changed really, while pure eels were mildly nerfed. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Reuben Parker said:

If you go full Mor’Phann infantry the list will at least be around 180 cheaper so an extra unit and render might squeeze in. 

I will be interested to see if thralls still get unit discount including the reduction as 30 at 330 would be quite reasonable. 

Yeah the thralls did get a good point drop, i'd definitly still try to find room for a soul scryer even with the points boost he's pretty pivotal. 

5 hours ago, DragonRider said:

How would some 1000point lists look like? 

With pts changes and the new 1k format we aren't super sure. I think morrsarr will be very powerful if you bring a king as general as you can still take units of 6, which is the normal unit size we tend to take.  That when compared to units of like which are very powerful. Thralls also shine as 10 man units, so they also won't do too poorly in the 1k format.  The aspects of the storm and sea are actualy better in 1k pts as they aren't likely to die in a single turn, letting them take advantage of thier healing. 

[Deepkin]

How usable are Allopexes now? A unit of 3 is 360 points, and puts out 30 attacks, half of which have rend -1 or -2.  It also has nine shots in the shooting phase, albeit with no rend. A unit of six Morrsarr is 340 points, and puts out between 24-36 attacks, of which 12 have rend -2 when you charge (which is all that matters, typically). Once per game, it can MW bomb as well. 

I am bad at probability, so maybe someone else could mathhammer it all out. But just preliminary stats make it look like Allopexes aren't quite as bad as before. They were140 per shark before, IIRC, so this has been 80 point swing in their favor (6 Morrsarr are 20 points more expensive, and 3 Allopex are 60 points cheaper than previous) which is helpful. 

In the end its all a bit of a wash though, as I dont see how Allopex play all that differently from Morrsarr: fast cavalry unit charging in and doing damage on High Tide. I guess they are slightly less dependent on the charge, since they rend at all times, but are also 2" slower. The shooting seems fairly insignificant, 3 shots (who would ever take the net launcher?) at 3+/3+ and no rend isn't very exciting. 

Thoughts?

[DragonRider]

Thank you all for the help. Would 2x Start Collecting Boxes! Be a good start? It's not the best value compared to some boxes, but would get 2 soulrender, 6 eels and 20 thralls.
Also, would people mind at tournaments, if I would hypothetically build both options of eels but mix and match those so I could play 6 more offensive or 6 more defensive or 3 + 3 when needed? I'd like the variety.

[Reuben Parker]

1 hour ago, Deepkin said:

How usable are Allopexes now? A unit of 3 is 360 points, and puts out 30 attacks, half of which have rend -1 or -2.  It also has nine shots in the shooting phase, albeit with no rend. A unit of six Morrsarr is 340 points, and puts out between 24-36 attacks, of which 12 have rend -2 when you charge (which is all that matters, typically). Once per game, it can MW bomb as well. 

I am bad at probability, so maybe someone else could mathhammer it all out. But just preliminary stats make it look like Allopexes aren't quite as bad as before. They were140 per shark before, IIRC, so this has been 80 point swing in their favor (6 Morrsarr are 20 points more expensive, and 3 Allopex are 60 points cheaper than previous) which is helpful. 

In the end its all a bit of a wash though, as I dont see how Allopex play all that differently from Morrsarr: fast cavalry unit charging in and doing damage on High Tide. I guess they are slightly less dependent on the charge, since they rend at all times, but are also 2" slower. The shooting seems fairly insignificant, 3 shots (who would ever take the net launcher?) at 3+/3+ and no rend isn't very exciting. 

Thoughts?

Yeah I think 6 eels is still better but it’s a lot closer now (I was touching on this above). Other aspect to consider is that now shark is our cheapest combat unit so you may have 120 points spare in a list and throw it in as a flank harasser / objective stealer.

On the net launcher you take it when you take the turtle battalion as it’s a single dice attack it gets more benefit from the one dice per phase re roll (do it first to see if you need the re roll then turtle shooting second). 

[Reuben Parker]

Had some more thoughts on Mor’Phann style lists with new points. 

Max saving list

tidecaster 

4 render 

Lotann 

30/20/20 thrall

20/10/10 reaver 

battalion

——-

or maybe drop some heroes and dudes for king and a turtle for some better saves and then have a high tide punch. 

I think they maybe more viable with the points changes but time will tell. 

[Acid_Nine]

Any clue how if the archmage changed points? Really if the battalions didnt change points then I am fairly set for this next year.

 

now I just gotta learn how to play these boys to their full potential... also, has anyone else tried arcane corrosion on a back field tide caster? And how do we feel about the new command abilities?

[Denegaar]

If you mean the Tidecaster, I think she went untouched. No clue about new command abilities for Idoneth.

[Acid_Nine]

19 minutes ago, Denegaar said:

If you mean the Tidecaster, I think she went untouched. No clue about new command abilities for Idoneth.

I heard 2+ tough talk about them. I think one's re-rolling ones to hit in melee, one is re-rollling save rolls of one and One is rerolling hit rolls of one for shooting. Basically giving us stuff to do with our command points outside of turn 3.

[JackStreicher]

Srsly, these changes are rubbish. The usual comp. army stays the same, all of the rest stays ****** that will get you tabled.

[Kitsumy]

We have plenty of things to use our cps haha.

 

I always spend every cp on inspiring pressence to overcome our absurdly low leadership. Since nothing is worse than losing half unit on a leader check

[Denegaar]

28 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

I heard 2+ tough talk about them. I think one's re-rolling ones to hit in melee, one is re-rollling save rolls of one and One is rerolling hit rolls of one for shooting. Basically giving us stuff to do with our command points outside of turn 3.

True! I just saw that part of the video. As you said they are: Reroll ones in combat, reroll ones on saves and reroll ones at shooting.

[Aelven supremacy]

10 minutes ago, Kitsumy said:

We have plenty of things to use our cps haha.

 

I always spend every cp on inspiring pressence to overcome our absurdly low leadership. Since nothing is worse than losing half unit on a leader check

Yeah, auto running 6 and passing battleshock eats cps up.   We have enough reroll charges built in to not need that but otherwise we are a low bravery army that depends on movement.

[Acid_Nine]

2 hours ago, Aelven supremacy said:

Yeah, auto running 6 and passing battleshock eats cps up.   We have enough reroll charges built in to not need that but otherwise we are a low bravery army that depends on movement.

True, but most of the latest games with my akhelians I always had a few extra Cp's in the back pocket by the later turns. Using a few in turn one would go a long way to making ishlean a lot hardier turn 1, and they move fast enough for turn 2's run to be gravy. I dunno, I am just excited for them.

[valenswift]

I played my first game against my friends new FEC army last night and got destroyed, so was hoping for some pointers.

We don't play tournament lists as our group prefers a to use a range of models and often play narrative battles.

Last night was the Guardian Spirits battleplan from Forbidden Power with 1.5k armies

My List was:

Akhelian King

Tidecaster

6 Ishlean eels

Turtle

30 thralls

Shark

He had:

Royal Terror Gheist

Varghulf Courtier

Flayer Hero

Horror

hero

6 flayers

6 horrors

He was able to summon another 3 flayers for free as well as use the 3 heroes to roll 18 dice with returning models on a 5+. My eels took out the Horrors to 1 wound and then his turn he brought back 5 models restoring the unit to full strength so i had to fight them again. Add to this a spamming of feeding frenzy and even in high tide I was left with just the tidecaster on the table. I was a bit unlucky with the horrors so things could have gone differently and next time I'd stay away till high tide but still FEC seem awfully powerful. I really could do with any tips to beat them.

[Aelven supremacy]

2 hours ago, valenswift said:

I played my first game against my friends new FEC army last night and got destroyed, so was hoping for some pointers.

We don't play tournament lists as our group prefers a to use a range of models and often play narrative battles.

Last night was the Guardian Spirits battleplan from Forbidden Power with 1.5k armies

My List was:

Akhelian King

Tidecaster

6 Ishlean eels

Turtle

30 thralls

Shark

He had:

Royal Terror Gheist

Varghulf Courtier

Flayer Hero

Horror

hero

6 flayers

6 horrors

He was able to summon another 3 flayers for free as well as use the 3 heroes to roll 18 dice with returning models on a 5+. My eels took out the Horrors to 1 wound and then his turn he brought back 5 models restoring the unit to full strength so i had to fight them again. Add to this a spamming of feeding frenzy and even in high tide I was left with just the tidecaster on the table. I was a bit unlucky with the horrors so things could have gone differently and next time I'd stay away till high tide but still FEC seem awfully powerful. I really could do with any tips to beat them.

Given you play narrative battles I am going to assume you don’t want tips on army builds but more on in game tactics. Against FEC you need to take out their heroes but their heroes are strong.  In your build you don’t have the soulscryer/ Morrsarr speed so are less able to reach his army on your own terms.  However FEC are also fast so can hit you quick too.   Your Ishlaen can tank, so maybe try to hold the royal terrorgheist there so you can bring in your Thralls to finish it.  Send your turtle, shark and king into his other heroes.  In this match up you won’t make it to turn 3 so you need to go hard from the start.   Hope this helps a bit!

[Raviv]

Hi all,

I'm considering my first conversion/kit-bash project. Here's a unit I came up with:

Akhelian Queen - Isharann Tidecaster on Kharibdyss  
Move:12"*
Wounds:15
Bravery:8
Save:4+

Abilities:
Fly (according to its description, the Kharibdyss is an deep sea creature, so as all other Idoneth mounts, it should be able to "fly")

Kharibdyss abilities:
Abyssal Howl
Feast of Bones
(removed one ability that is related to the handlers)

Tidecaster abilities:
Spirit Guardians - I think it should be nerfed a bit - First save roll is an automatic success (instead of negating the first wound)
The Wide Ethersea
Magic (Riptide)

Weapon table (weapons from both basic models, excluding the handler's weapons):

Melee Weapons	Range	Attacks	To Hit	To Damage	Rend	Damage
Pelagic Staff	1"	2	3+	3+	-	D3
Fanged Tentacles	3"	*	4+	3+	-1	2
Clawed Limbs	1"	2	3+	3+	-1	1
Spiked Tail	2+	D6	4+	*	-	1

Damage Table:

Wounds Suffered	Move	Fanged Tentacles	Spiked Tail
0-2	12"	6	2+
3-5	10"	5	3+
6-8	8"	4	4+
9-11	6"	3	5+
12+	4"	2	6+

 My plan is to build the Kharibdyss without its handlers, and then add some kind of saddle or howdah, with the Tidecaster standing on it.
What do you think?
For balance purposes, what do you think is the estimated point value for such a model/unit?

(as a side note, I think of trying to fit the War Hydra heads from this kit as alternative heads for eels, but that's a different project)

[Denegaar]

Maybe try changing Ishlaen for Morsarr and charge turn one with Fuethan Flood Tide?

Can't talk about t'he Leviadon, but Sharks are not that killy. Thralls should be good vs their battleline as they have 4 wounds each afaik.

Don't get frustrated, FEC is considered one of the strongest armies, even if they don't play ultra competitive builds, their abilities are stupidly powerful.

[tripchimeras]

9 hours ago, valenswift said:

 

He had:

Royal Terror Gheist

Varghulf Courtier

Flayer Hero

Horror

hero

6 flayers

6 horrors

 

I'm sure your friend is playing in good faith as well, and just wanted to use cool models, but the competitiveness of your lists are not even close unfortunately.  FEC is a rough matchup for Deepkin to begin with, but on top of that he is playing a list that sits much closer to the FEC power builds then your list is close to the deepkin power builds, so a fairly bad matchup is made much worse by the list construction gap.  You would need him to make some mistakes and for everything to go right for you to have a shot in this game.  I know its narrative play so list construction tips are probably not what you are looking for, but you may want to harden your list a bit if terrorgheist ghoul kings lists are what your opponents are bringing.

As for what you can do, like others have said you gotta focus in and isolate his heroes as early as possible.  If you are interested in hardening up the list specifically with the idea of hanging with the FEC list a little longer I would say first off you are never going to make it to high tide as things stand to use the king combo, so I would run the mage as your general and split up the thralls into 20/10 to stay legal with fliptide at minimum against him if you want to use same models, king can still aid in killing the heroes, and honestly the 20/10 split is going to likely help you in objective game.  If you have the models I'd then either flip the ishlaen for morrsarr for a small change to be a little better against your friend, or keep the ishlaen and flip the king for morrsarr and if you need extra points to do so get rid of the shark as well to make the room.  If you really want to give him a run I would remove the king, the shark and the ishlaen for 2 units of 6 morrsarr, flip the tides with the mage, and try to time the charge so the morrsarr both hit the gheist on turn 2, good chance you kill it.  If you manage to do that with most of your army intact you will likely win.  You still have the turtle then to keep the army semi fluffy :).

Edit: the problem with just playing keep away till turn 3 for the comboing, is 1. that is easier said then done 2. that whole time he is going to be summoning, widening the gap in army strength, and if he has some skill likely dominating board control as you flee and depending on scenario taking hefty objective leads that are going to be extremely difficult for you to come back from if you have to spend turn 3 trying to finally start whittling his army down.  On top of that the king combo is really best with morrsarr, the ishlaen will benefit from it much less, and while its great with the thralls they are the unit least likely to successfully play keep away till turn 3.

Edited June 19, 2019 by tripchimeras

[valenswift]

7 hours ago, Aelven supremacy said:

Given you play narrative battles I am going to assume you don’t want tips on army builds but more on in game tactics. Against FEC you need to take out their heroes but their heroes are strong.  In your build you don’t have the soulscryer/ Morrsarr speed so are less able to reach his army on your own terms.  However FEC are also fast so can hit you quick too.   Your Ishlaen can tank, so maybe try to hold the royal terrorgheist there so you can bring in your Thralls to finish it.  Send your turtle, shark and king into his other heroes.  In this match up you won’t make it to turn 3 so you need to go hard from the start.   Hope this helps a bit!

Thanks it does help and yes this is exactly what i'm looking for. I do have a Scryer and Morsarr so I'm thinking i should deepstrike the heroes and take out as many as I can. I'll couple that with hopefully some massive points hikes for his units come July  🤣

[valenswift]

1 hour ago, tripchimeras said:

I'm sure your friend is playing in good faith as well, and just wanted to use cool models, but the competitiveness of your lists are not even close unfortunately.  FEC is a rough matchup for Deepkin to begin with, but on top of that he is playing a list that sits much closer to the FEC power builds then your list is close to the deepkin power builds, so a fairly bad matchup is made much worse by the list construction gap.  You would need him to make some mistakes and for everything to go right for you to have a shot in this game.  I know its narrative play so list construction tips are probably not what you are looking for, but you may want to harden your list a bit if terrorgheist ghoul kings lists are what your opponents are bringing.

As for what you can do, like others have said you gotta focus in and isolate his heroes as early as possible.  If you are interested in hardening up the list specifically with the idea of hanging with the FEC list a little longer I would say first off you are never going to make it to high tide as things stand to use the king combo, so I would run the mage as your general and split up the thralls into 20/10 to stay legal with fliptide at minimum against him if you want to use same models, king can still aid in killing the heroes, and honestly the 20/10 split is going to likely help you in objective game.  If you have the models I'd then either flip the ishlaen for morrsarr for a small change to be a little better against your friend, or keep the ishlaen and flip the king for morrsarr and if you need extra points to do so get rid of the shark as well to make the room.  If you really want to give him a run I would remove the king, the shark and the ishlaen for 2 units of 6 morrsarr, flip the tides with the mage, and try to time the charge so the morrsarr both hit the gheist on turn 2, good chance you kill it.  If you manage to do that with most of your army intact you will likely win.  You still have the turtle then to keep the army semi fluffy :).

Edit: the problem with just playing keep away till turn 3 for the comboing, is 1. that is easier said then done 2. that whole time he is going to be summoning, widening the gap in army strength, and if he has some skill likely dominating board control as you flee and depending on scenario taking hefty objective leads that are going to be extremely difficult for you to come back from if you have to spend turn 3 trying to finally start whittling his army down.  On top of that the king combo is really best with morrsarr, the ishlaen will benefit from it much less, and while its great with the thralls they are the unit least likely to successfully play keep away till turn 3.

Thank you more great advice, I'm certainly going to try a more competitive list next time

[Aelven supremacy]

How do people in general manage to maximise their turn 3 if they are running an Akhelian King list?  Every time I try I wish I had tidecaster and flipped to get turn 2 high tide.   Only a handful of opponents/scenarios favour turn 3 high tide (nagash on take and hold comes to mind...)