AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[DanielFM]

2 hours ago, DantePQ said:

I don't get this complaining about Deepkin they are powerful and very cool army to play with it. I love it as even spamming Morssar in Fuethan isn't auto pilot and forces to pick your targets carefully and plan everything in advance. 

Considering points

Eidolons are overpriced a little 20-40 points decrease would be quite handy

Maybe Reavers should get 20 points decrease 

Leviadon would need 80-100 decrease to be viable 

And Sharks like 40-60

But I don't see such dramatic point changes. 

Heroes are fine especially Tidecaster. 

The Aspect of the Sea would still be overpriced at 400. 

Compare to:

Thanquol- 400. Every bit as good a Spellcaster. Tougher. Close combat/shooting machine

Verminlords-300 or under. More or less what I said above.

Screaming Bell- 200, the same again, but much slower.

Lord of Change- 380, tougher, way better wizard.

I'm sure there are more examples out there.

It could go down to 350 and it would be still fair. Seriously, is being "untargetable" by shooting worth 80- 100 points?

Edited February 20, 2019 by DanielFM
Wrote Storm by mistake

[Deepkin]

Allopex at 110 points (30 point drop) has a comparable wounds-to-point value as Morrsarrs, and comparable attacks: a unit of 3 is 330 points, outputs 30 melee attacks (15 with rend) and 24 wounds. A unit of 6 morrsarrs is 320 points with 24 wounds and 24-36 attacks (if you roll straight 6s for the d3 tail attacks), of which 1/3 have rend when charging. 

So Allopexes at 110 points might be worth it. 

Also Daniel, youre talking about Aspect of the Sea. Storm is the cheaper choppy one, not the spellcaster. 

[DantePQ]

II doubt it 

Eidolon has many things going 

- it's not a monster 

- can take magical item

- isn't losing anything with wounds take 

-has access to fantastic Allegiance Abilities 

- 14" move with fly 

I don't expect nothing dramatic from GH 2019 my bet is 

Eidolons - 40

Reavers - 20

Leviadon - 80

Soulrender - 20

Shark - 20

Morssar +20

Battalions - 20

Edited February 20, 2019 by DantePQ

[Acid_Nine]

1 hour ago, DantePQ said:

I don't get this complaining about Deepkin they are powerful and very cool army to play with it. I love it as even spamming Morssar in Fuethan isn't auto pilot and forces to pick your targets carefully and plan everything in advance. 

 

It's worrying about the flesh eater courts and skaven just being more powerful and how we can keep up.  The two spell slinging skaven and always on high tide flesh eater courts are just more powerful for their points. I love playing these deep kin too, they are my favorite army to play, and I just don't wanna get face stomped because of the power gap between our tome and the other. 

If I'm going to fail I want it to be my fault, not because i can only bring one eidolon for every two verminlords.

[Deepkin]

Isnt that FEC ability only a command trait? So only on one model. Or did i miss something?

[Drofnum]

14 minutes ago, Deepkin said:

Isnt that FEC ability only a command trait? So only on one model. Or did i miss something?

It is.  The worry seems a bit overblown to be honest, FEC will be tough now but I dont think it will be DoK levels of power.  Skaven seems the worse offender to me in terms of power creep but I think worrying so much before we even see them at events is a bit silly.

 

Then again this is the internet, what else would we all expect!

[JackStreicher]

21 hours ago, Akhelian-Snail said:

Lets be honest not a lot we have is going to be very competitive against a whole dragon list. Especially if they take royal menagerie battalion. They out move, out save, and out punch almost everything we have. So my goal is to mainly de-buff and frustrate my opponent. Then buy him a beer after his dragons chomp through everything I've got.

10/10 Sportsmanship

I‘m having a hard time evaluating how strong a monstermash list of the FeC is. My first thought was that it would be weak... 

Edited February 20, 2019 by JackStreicher

[DantePQ]

It's bascially old same song and dance, new BT - power creep worries. 

FEC seems strong ? But are they really more powerful then SCE, Nagash, DoK and Deepkins ? Don't think so they might be at similar level but they won't absue meta 

For me Skavens aren't that good Tier 2 at best but we will see, and Deepkins with ability to nulify shooting should be fine against them. 

Deepkins are lovely army to play with as I enjoy them much more then my DoK sure their playstyle is obvious right know with Morssar spams but it's really, really hard to master - one bad decision and instatnly you're behind. 

That's why I don't think so we will see dramatic changes in GH2019, I would love 80 points discount on Leviadon and 40 points of Eidolons and I have some ideas how to make totally different army with Leviadon if it is cheaper.  Maybe some tweaks to Reavers and Soulrender point cost. 

In fact a lot of issues could be fixed with points costs like 120 points Allopex maybe makes sense (especially with Morssar go up to 180 for example) 

Reavers for 120 and Soulrender for 80 make easier to use for example Namarati Battlions (especially if it drops 20 points for example)

Eidolon of Storm for 360-380 would be nice, 

Eidolon of Sea is different story becasue he lacks few things :

- any cast bonuses 

- good spells (his spell is very good but he needs to be near enemy to take full advantage of it) especially when there is easy access to -1 to hit spells. - could be fixed with some cool Deepkin endless spells I think we will get at some point this year. 

[DanielFM]

2 hours ago, Deepkin said:

Allopex at 110 points (30 point drop) has a comparable wounds-to-point value as Morrsarrs, and comparable attacks: a unit of 3 is 330 points, outputs 30 melee attacks (15 with rend) and 24 wounds. A unit of 6 morrsarrs is 320 points with 24 wounds and 24-36 attacks (if you roll straight 6s for the d3 tail attacks), of which 1/3 have rend when charging. 

So Allopexes at 110 points might be worth it. 

Also Daniel, youre talking about Aspect of the Sea. Storm is the cheaper choppy one, not the spellcaster. 

Yep, meant Aspect of the Sea, sorry.

440 minus the proposed reduction (by DantePQ) would be 400.

2 hours ago, DantePQ said:

II doubt it 

Eidolon has many things going 

- it's not a monster 

- can take magical item

- isn't losing anything with wounds take 

-has access to fantastic Allegiance Abilities 

- 14" move with fly 

I don't expect nothing dramatic from GH 2019 my bet is 

Eidolons - 40

Reavers - 20

Leviadon - 80

Soulrender - 20

Shark - 20

Morssar +20

Battalions - 20

Most things I mentioned can have magical artifacts. They also get their own useful allegiance abilities. And some of them are as fast or faster, even flying (Aspect of the Sea, the overpriced one, moves only 10). Once again, only thing it has going for it is Forgotten Nightmares and access to cover and LoS.

[Kitsumy]

Oh im not conplaining about idoneths being bad lol. Im conplaining about being forced to play only morsar.  And noone can deny this when every top idoneth list have 12+ morsars. Every list with sharks. Avatars or turtle are outside of top position always.

 

So i would love to a sligthy tone down on too units like morsar. With a buff on others units. To keep the same power we have now or even sligthy worse but with more diversity on lists.

[Deepkin]

I dunno man, would making the other units morr viable even do that much? If you have 12+ morrsarr or 9+ allopex, what is really the difference in playstyle? Its still fast moving cavalry that hits hard with a lot of attacks buffed by an Akhelian King. It would be cool to swap out the models (he says, as he paints up his growing collection of eels) but it would end up playing pretty similarly. 

[Azamar]

4 hours ago, Drofnum said:

I believe the wording on theirs was similar to the morrsarr mortals. Which takes place before combat actually begins, which means it happens before high tide. 

Hmm. Good point- exact wording is “at the start of the combat phase” for the FEC ability. Although high tide trait says your units “fight before *any* other units, which might still supersede it? Probably one for an FAQ

[Deepkin]

I imagine it will be resolved similarly to the mirror match high tide ruling: on my turn, my Deepkin strike first; on their turn, the ghoul king strikes first. But yeah, one for the faqs.

[DanielFM]

1 hour ago, Deepkin said:

I dunno man, would making the other units morr viable even do that much? If you have 12+ morrsarr or 9+ allopex, what is really the difference in playstyle? Its still fast moving cavalry that hits hard with a lot of attacks buffed by an Akhelian King. It would be cool to swap out the models (he says, as he paints up his growing collection of eels) but it would end up playing pretty similarly. 

If units were balanced (ideally) people would not lose much by using a split of those units, and most people tend to prefer model variety so they would go for it. 

Even then, the real incentive for variety is not (only) balance but slightly different roles. People still field some Ishlaen (not many, though) as they offer something different to Morrsar. Allopexes don't really offer anything substantially different to Morrsar (mediocre shooting?). Making them cheaper could help to see them on the tables, but it wouldn't be enough.

[Drofnum]

1 hour ago, Azamar said:

Hmm. Good point- exact wording is “at the start of the combat phase” for the FEC ability. Although high tide trait says your units “fight before *any* other units, which might still supersede it? Probably one for an FAQ

Its the same wording as the Eel ability, quicksilver potion, etc.  It happens before combat, high tide just lets you activate all your units during the combat phase before your opponent chooses to activate theirs.  There is no need for a FAQ since there are already abilities in the game that act in the same way.

Lets say you were playing deepkin and got charged by them, during high tide, you would still argue you could activate your eels blast before they attack right?  Exact same situation and its already been ruled to play that way.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Drofnum

[Drofnum]

From the FAQ to clarify the issue:

Q: Some abilities allow or require a unit to fight at the start of the combat phase, or the end of the combat phase. How exactly does this work? What happens if two or more units have to fight at the start or the end of the phase?

A: Units that fight at the start or the end of the combat phase make a pile-in move and then attack with their melee weapons before the players start picking any other units to fight in that phase, or after the players have picked all other units to fight in that phase, respectively. So, first you pile in and make attacks with the units that are to fight at the start of the phase, then the players alternate picking units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place, and lastly you pile in and make attacks with units that make attacks at the end of the combat phase. If there are several units fighting at the start or the end of the phase, the player whose turn is taking place attacks with all of their units in the order of their choice, and then their opponent does the same.

 

Since high tide takes place during the combat phase and not before the Gristlegore command trait happens before high tide.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Drofnum

[Deepkin]

Yeah that seems pretty cut and dry. Oh well, just stick him against a big unit of Ishlaen I guess and kill everything else in his army.

[Azamar]

2 hours ago, Drofnum said:

Its the same wording as the Eel ability, quicksilver potion, etc.  It happens before combat, high tide just lets you activate all your units during the combat phase before your opponent chooses to activate theirs.  There is no need for a FAQ since there are already abilities in the game that act in the same way.

Lets say you were playing deepkin and got charged by them, during high tide, you would still argue you could activate your eels blast before they attack right?  Exact same situation and its already been ruled to play that way.

Disclaimer: you’re probably right, or will be proven to be in time, but just to throw a spanner in the works:

 the idoneth designers commentary describes high tide as a start of phase ability. not sure how to copy and paste from a pdf on phone, but wording is “if both units can use an ability at the start of a phase (such as the high tide allegiance ability)...”

 

the full question in that faq directly relates to two idoneth armies armies fighting each other, but I would think that would still apply to other similar abilities? 

That would also suggest that, if another deepkin player charged me in high tide, they would attack with their units in their turn before I could use the eels discharge ability. 

 

Even if I'm wrong hopefully you can see why I’m confused on that, as I was thinking  of the idoneth faq. 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Azamar

[Drofnum]

4 hours ago, Azamar said:

Disclaimer: you’re probably right, or will be proven to be in time, but just to throw a spanner in the works:

 the idoneth designers commentary describes high tide as a start of phase ability. not sure how to copy and paste from a pdf on phone, but wording is “if both units can use an ability at the start of a phase (such as the high tide allegiance ability)...”

 

the full question in that faq directly relates to two idoneth armies armies fighting each other, but I would think that would still apply to other similar abilities? 

The FAQ is completely clear.  Its based on abilities happening at the beginning of the combat phase(Gristlegore) vs ones that happen during the combat phase(High Tide).  Just read the wording on the abilities carefully and you will see the distinction, its already very clear.

 

Quote

That would also suggest that, if another deepkin player charged me in high tide, they would attack with their units in their turn before I could use the eels discharge ability. 

This is incorrect.  The eel ability happens at the beginning of the combat phase, which happens BEFORE you pick units to fight in the combat phase.  High Tide says you fight before other units IN the combat phase.  Think of each phase as having a beginning, a middle and an end and it will make it a bit more clear.  It's the same reason that summoned units that come on at the END of the movement phase are unable to move that turn as it is the very last thing to happen, likewise with things that happen at the beginning of the phase happen before anything else does.

[Azamar]

6 hours ago, Drofnum said:

The FAQ is completely clear.  Its based on abilities happening at the beginning of the combat phase(Gristlegore) vs ones that happen during the combat phase(High Tide).  Just read the wording on the abilities carefully and you will see the distinction, its already very clear.

 

This is incorrect.  The eel ability happens at the beginning of the combat phase, which happens BEFORE you pick units to fight in the combat phase.  High Tide says you fight before other units IN the combat phase.  Think of each phase as having a beginning, a middle and an end and it will make it a bit more clear.  It's the same reason that summoned units that come on at the END of the movement phase are unable to move that turn as it is the very last thing to happen, likewise with things that happen at the beginning of the phase happen before anything else does.

I hope you don’t think I’m awkward by keeping replying to this, but it is interesting  

I completely get what you’re saying (and I’m used to start vs end of phase abilities and all that , and how these would interact with normal combat order). But my point in my last post is, is High tide a start of phase ability? 

Its not outright stated as such in the rule’s wording, but the idoneth  faq question I mentioned specifically uses it as an example of a start of phase ability. Still not sure how to copy and paste so I’ve screen capped it below.  Look at the first sentence of the answer in particular.

 

There’s two ways to interpret this really: 

1. The High Tide ability is intended to happen at the start of the phase, and the idoneth faq should be considered confirmation of this, in which case it follows the rules in the same way as all other start of phase abilities. (The first half of the answer in that question is basically repeating the start of phase question that you posted)

2. High Tide isn’t a start of phase ability, the wording of the ability should be taken literally and the line in the faqs, saying it is start of phase, is a mistake. 

I think it’s 1. myself, as the faqs are meant to offer rules clarifications after all. But I admit I can imagine errors pop up in the faqs as well so it could be a genuine mistake. But again, hopefully you can see why I don’t think it’s completely clear at this point. 

 

This is largely theoretical for me, as even if I run into Gristlegore at any point, it’ll only actually matter on a single turn, so I’m probably splitting hairs anyway. 

 

 

[Bozly]

Hey im going to get into idoneth what should i look to pick up? 

[Acid_Nine]

Well, managed to play with my idoneth instead of studying, and Honestly I have no regrets! fought against a khrone list at 1000 points based around the concept of "Stop Hitting Yourself" with wrathmongers, with so much things either causing  attacks out of sequence or punching myself.  Honestly, Things performed well, and my dice rolls were hot the entire game (my models killed themselves more than the enemy did...)

I have to say I need to work on getting my morrsarr into positions where they can charge more than once per game.

[Sonnenspeer]

Acid Nine, I know🙄what you mean wrathmongers are a pain. But wait untill a FEC dragon scares your king to death 

[Azamar]

17 hours ago, Bozly said:

Hey im going to get into idoneth what should i look to pick up? 

There’s a start collecting set going up for pre-order (I think) this weekend- so that might be a good place to start- you’d only need a king or another box of thralls to have all the battleline you need, then could fill out the rest up to the first 1000 points with whatever you fancied. 

[Acid_Nine]

6 hours ago, Sonnenspeer said:

Acid Nine, I know🙄what you mean wrathmongers are a pain. But wait untill a FEC dragon scares your king to death 

gosh, I think I might be taking the aqshy fire amulet thingie just to protect against that on my king. I usually take Gyrnstrike, but I think that I could suffer through the standard hits just to keep him alive.

 

new question: if an archmage's bubble of 6+ to saves reaches a unit that's covered by a ship's 6+ save, does it stack?

Edited February 22, 2019 by Acid_Nine