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AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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1 hour ago, DanielFM said:

PD: am I missing something and cover stops working if you charge? Or is it that you think it's impossible to charge with a unit and still be within the aura?

You do lose cover bonuses for any unit that charges in the turn they charge, its in the core rules.

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40 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

I believe its always been the case. I never really had it come up in AoS 1 though as i mainly played a gunline, so i could be wrong about that.

As Staunch Defender was kind-of-cover and carried a "doesn't work when you charge" caveat I always thought it was an exception to how cover worked.

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2 hours ago, DanielFM said:

😒

I think we play different games. What if you play Reverse Tide and you don't get first turn? Yeah, the Leviadon cover is useless.

What if (how dare you) you ambush a Leviadon with a big unit so they take and hold an objective?

What if you maneuver the Leviadon so it runs and keeps a charging unit within the bubble?

PD: am I missing something and cover stops working if you charge? Or is it that you think it's impossible to charge with a unit and still be within the aura? *Real edit: I wasn't aware cover doesn't work if you charge. Sorry. It doesn't wholly invalidate the previous argument.

Reply to the Edit:  what are you talking about? Running 5d6 and charging? Yeah, if the moon is where it should be when you need it (first battleround it's in the corner, no effect. Second battleround it can be in a quadrant or in the center of the table). The Leviadon moves 12+1d6 and charge in the second turn. Consider me unimpressed 😜

I’ve not played any Deepkin yet so take this advisedly but having ready the discussion this page I think the broad narrative is one that plagues most meta orientated games in that they nearly always assume you will be playing an opponent with a powerful list that they know how to use. The interpretation of what you are asking goes from your intended “what are these guys like” to “how will this list fare against the best opposition in the most intense circumstances.” Which makes the game an utter bore and is why you increasingly just see Gav Bombs against 50 Eels every match. A game of fantasy and drama becomes a monolithic slog that endlessly replays on every other table and tactics give way to hacks, exploits and gimmicks.

It sounds to me like you’ve thought through how you want your army to play and why and I bet even if you lose 4 games and win only 1 with *your* army you’ll have more fun than winning 5 games in which you just throw eels and dice in someone’s face. And in my eyes you’ll be far more of a general if you win with what you have than just buying all of the unanimously overpowered units who intrinsically just win more often because of imbalance.

I’m not saying I know better than anyone else but if you’re enthused by your plans dont be put off them. Life’s too short to spend hundreds of pounds on plastic eels just to “win” at toy soldiers.

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19 minutes ago, Nos said:

I’ve not played any Deepkin yet so take this advisedly but having ready the discussion this page I think the broad narrative is one that plagues most meta orientated games in that they nearly always assume you will be playing an opponent with a powerful list that they know how to use. The interpretation of what you are asking goes from your intended “what are these guys like” to “how will this list fare against the best opposition in the most intense circumstances.” Which makes the game an utter bore and is why you increasingly just see Gav Bombs against 50 Eels every match. A game of fantasy and drama becomes a monolithic slog that endlessly replays on every other table and tactics give way to hacks, exploits and gimmicks.

It sounds to me like you’ve thought through how you want your army to play and why and I bet even if you lose 4 games and win only 1 with *your* army you’ll have more fun than winning 5 games in which you just throw eels and dice in someone’s face. And in my eyes you’ll be far more of a general if you win with what you have than just buying all of the unanimously overpowered units who intrinsically just win more often because of imbalance.

I’m not saying I know better than anyone else but if you’re enthused by your plans dont be put off them. Life’s too short to spend hundreds of pounds on plastic eels just to “win” at toy soldiers.

Yeah, you and me look at the game in the same way.

I want to learn to use the army I want to play, not to play the best meta army. Because there are a lot of fun, interesting suboptimal options and strategies. But only so many cookie-cutter, top lists.

Edited by DanielFM
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3 hours ago, DanielFM said:

: am I missing something and cover stops working if you charge?

...

I want  to learn to use the army I want to play, not to play the best m eta army. Because there are a lot of fun, interesting suboptima l options and strategies. But only so many cookie-cutter, top list s.

Yes you don‘t profit from cover when you charge.

I always use the Leviadon, though I usually get punished hard for it.

imo it‘s just too expensive for what it does by a large margin. I would love to see it drop a little in price so I can add an additional Allopex or reaver unit.

 

so far the best strategy with the lev seemed to be if you screen it with 3-6 Ishlean which can charge or stay still while always having their 3+ save. But then you have a 500 point bundle that can at max hold one objective against small units while the rest of the army is obliterated.

or they alpha-strike the Leviadon to uselessness/death Turn 1 or 2.

Edited by JackStreicher
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Okay so my 2 cents on the leviadon. I love that model. He looks cool, can put out some mortal wounds with his chomp. Especially turn 3 if you spam the king or volturnous's command ability on him. And he is a blast to move around the board. But in my opinion he would be better if he either droppep a few points in cost nothing major, maybe 340 instead of 380. Give a little wiggle room to squeeze him in other 2000 pt lists. Or if his cover ability was changed to +1 to save. That way you could play as aggressively as idoneth need to be played without losing that extra save. 

I say thats my 2 cents because i played a 1250 pt game last night against wanderers. And instead of the leviadon i took the Eidolon of Mathlann with abyssal darkness spell (cover for units wholly within 9") and in my opinion that worked better because not only did the eidolon benefit from his own cover if a unit got outside of 9" i just healed them with the cloying sea mist. And the whole match my eidolon only went down at most to half health and i mist have healed 20 wounds back to him. So with the eidolon doing what the leviadon does plus healing and only costs 60 pts more i would rather have the flexibility of the Eidolon. Even though for now im keeping the Leviadon for my akhelian battalion.

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47 minutes ago, Akhelian-Snail said:

Okay so my 2 cents on the leviadon. I love that model. He looks cool, can put out some mortal wounds with his chomp. Especially turn 3 if you spam the king or volturnous's command ability on him. And he is a blast to move around the board. But in my opinion he would be better if he either droppep a few points in cost nothing major, maybe 340 instead of 380. Give a little wiggle room to squeeze him in other 2000 pt lists. Or if his cover ability was changed to +1 to save. That way you could play as aggressively as idoneth need to be played without losing that extra save. 

I say thats my 2 cents because i played a 1250 pt game last night against wanderers. And instead of the leviadon i took the Eidolon of Mathlann with abyssal darkness spell (cover for units wholly within 9") and in my opinion that worked better because not only did the eidolon benefit from his own cover if a unit got outside of 9" i just healed them with the cloying sea mist. And the whole match my eidolon only went down at most to half health and i mist have healed 20 wounds back to him. So with the eidolon doing what the leviadon does plus healing and only costs 60 pts more i would rather have the flexibility of the Eidolon. Even though for now im keeping the Leviadon for my akhelian battalion.

I'm fairly certain Abyssal Darkness is just within 9", not wholly within, which makes it pretty comparable to the turtle cover save.

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2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Yes you don‘t profit from cover when you charge.

I always use the Leviadon, though I usually get punished hard for it.

imo it‘s just too expensive for what it does by a large margin. I would love to see it drop a little in price so I can add an additional Allopex or reaver unit.

 

so far the best strategy with the lev seemed to be if you screen it with 3-6 Ishlean which can charge or stay still while always having their 3+ save. But then you have a 500 point bundle that can at max hold one objective against small units while the rest of the army is obliterated.

or they alpha-strike the Leviadon to uselessness/death Turn 1 or 2.

That (and the other recent posts) is way more constructive.

It would be nice if it dropped 40 points? For sure. Could GW tune its aura to work better with the army? Clearly.

But neither will happen (if it does) until summer.

We can try to make it work the better we can, or leave it at home. What a pitty to do so, isn't it?

 

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The thing is with Idoneth almost all the units are good.  The Leviadon and Shark are not as good as Morrsarr, we all know and accept that, but compared to most things outside of our Battletome they are still quite good units.  I've played quite a few "suboptimal" lists and for everything outside of serious tournament play its still powerful enough to table opponents.

I love the shark and Leviadon models and hope they get buffed up in some small way so they are more viable in tournament play but there is no reason at all not to field them right now unless you are on the bleeding edge competitive scene. 

I think a Namarti heavy army with a Leviadon providing constant cover could be pretty cool to play, 4+ save Thralls bringing back 6 models a turn is nothing to sniff at!

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1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

Agreed 🥺😭

@Drofnum Nautilar (+1 to Hits when charged) with a horde of Namarti thralls and a Leviadon could work quite well =} (it‘s quite a brick concerning movement though) ^^

Unfortunately it's rerolls (1s?) to hit when charged. +1 to hit would have been brutal for the Leviadon.

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Food for thought: Seraphon's Bastiladon is 280 points for only 8 wounds and poor CaC (good shooting though) but an infamously annoying resilience.

Would you like the Leviadon to be more like it? Maybe 3+ unmodifiable/4+ vs mortals would be unbalanced on a 16 wound model.

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1 hour ago, Acid_Nine said:

So apart from the archmage, which mage would be most useful for us? I think having some more magic allies could be fun, and may open more modeling opportunities for us in the longrun.

 

heck, to add to this, which monsters / creatures could be fun to add to our armies?

Well Morathi but tragically it cannot be done.

 

Edit: my buddy plays sylvaneth using her as an ally and I am jealous.  Dislike all of the other DoK but she is super cool (and very good)

Edited by Luke1705
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5 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:

So apart from the archmage, which mage would be most useful for us? I think having some more magic allies could be fun, and may open more modeling opportunities for us in the longrun.

 

heck, to add to this, which monsters / creatures could be fun to add to our armies?

If you run aspect of the sea or aspect of the storm the lore master ain't too bad. A storm cast wizard with a comet in his pocket is also fun. 

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2 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

is there a way to make an Ahkelian King a wizard? like one of the artefacts from malign sorcery or something? i would like to use magic but dont want to break my theme of Ahkelian units only

not that i know of but an aspect of the sea/storm might work??? it's not an ahkellian, but depending on your lore it could only be the souls of ahkellan or be all the dead namarti. 

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15 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:

So apart from the archmage, which mage would be most useful for us? I think having some more magic allies could be fun, and may open more modeling opportunities for us in the longrun.

 

heck, to add to this, which monsters / creatures could be fun to add to our armies?

Sorceress and Loremaster can be useful too

 

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18 hours ago, mmimzie said:

If you run aspect of the sea or aspect of the storm the lore master ain't too bad. A storm cast wizard with a comet in his pocket is also fun. 

Good idea, the lore master can give out some pretty good buffs in general, but having him keep up with an aspect of the sea might be a bit of a pain... the stormcast idea is awesome though. Can't you dispel one of those endless spells and recast it? Make it keep dropping down again and again?

8 hours ago, Sergi said:

Sorceress and Loremaster can be useful too

 

Sorceress could be fun, but it's just another -1 to hit debuff, which we already have covered...

 

has as anyone tried a drakeseer just for fun? Have him set units on fire the entire game with his unique spell and dragon's attack?

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12 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

Good idea, the lore master can give out some pretty good buffs in general, but having him keep up with an aspect of the sea might be a bit of a pain... the stormcast idea is awesome though. Can't you dispel one of those endless spells and recast it? Make it keep dropping down again and again?

Sorceress could be fun, but it's just another -1 to hit debuff, which we already have covered...

 

has as anyone tried a drakeseer just for fun? Have him set units on fire the entire game with his unique spell and dragon's attack?

yeah, and the comet is particularly nasty if you are going 2nd because you can drop it it goes off, then at the start of the next round it immediately goes off again before you opponent get a chance to move away or dispel it.

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Hi, does this list sound better than my last one?

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Fuethan

Leaders
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Storm (400)
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- General
- Trait: Lord of Storm and Sea 
Isharann Soulscryer (100)

Battleline
10 x Namarti Reavers (140)
10 x Namarti Thralls (140)
10 x Namarti Thralls (140)

Units
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (160)
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (160)
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (140)

Behemoths
Akhelian Leviadon (380)

Battalions
Akhelian Corps (100)

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 100
 

Balewind vortex is for filling points and help Tidecaster with the short range (plus another spell to help her contribute more).

Any suggestions for the artifacts and spell? I can't see the use for the ubiquitous Cloud of Midnight on the Avatar of the Storm. A turn doing nothing seems a waste for its profile.

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On 1/18/2019 at 3:59 PM, DanielFM said:

Hi, does this list sound better than my last one?

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Fuethan

Leaders
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Storm (400)
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- General
- Trait: Lord of Storm and Sea 
Isharann Soulscryer (100)

Battleline
10 x Namarti Reavers (140)
10 x Namarti Thralls (140)
10 x Namarti Thralls (140)

Units
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (160)
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (160)
1 x Akhelian Allopexes (140)

Behemoths
Akhelian Leviadon (380)

Battalions
Akhelian Corps (100)

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 100
 

Balewind vortex is for filling points and help Tidecaster with the short range (plus another spell to help her contribute more).

Any suggestions for the artifacts and spell? I can't see the use for the ubiquitous Cloud of Midnight on the Avatar of the Storm. A turn doing nothing seems a waste for its profile.

artifact for the storm could be the ignax's scales, giving him a 4+ ward, making him more durable to attacks? or you could give him something like the etheral amulet, which lets him ignore rend?

 

spells could be steed of tides to throw him into combat, or maybe vorpal malestrom in order to throw out easyish mortal wounds?

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