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AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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19 minutes ago, Kimbo said:

I'm abit uncertain on were to start with my idoneth army. I have some more questions i would love your answer to (experienced players since you know what you talk about, no offence 🙂

 

- can the army be played competitive other then spamming eels? I would love to play and list with more than 1 unit spammed, not my thing! (I love the reavers and thralls!) 

- Reading on this forums some are afraid that eels will be nerfed, this make me a bit scared to invest tons of money into an "eels" army, should i be worried or not?

I made a list. What do you think? Foot Troops are there to sitter back on objectives as the other units run forward, simlpy put. How would you make it better? 

1x King 

10x Thralls 

6x Morrsarr 

3x Ishlaen 

10x Reavers 

980p. (How can i use the last 20p?) 

Cheers! 

Looks good for 1k. You cannot fill the 20pts.

You could use tons of Namarti and support them with the Namarti corps battalion and two Soulrendets. There‘s also one Enclave that buffs the healing of your soulrenders.

 

you basically go heavy on eels (super effective) or you go heavy on Namarti (example in the attachment)

Test%20%31k.pdf

Edited by JackStreicher
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20 minutes ago, Kimbo said:

I'm abit uncertain on were to start with my idoneth army. I have some more questions i would love your answer to (experienced players since you know what you talk about, no offence 🙂

 

- can the army be played competitive other then spamming eels? I would love to play and list with more than 1 unit spammed, not my thing! (I love the reavers and thralls!) 

- Reading on this forums some are afraid that eels will be nerfed, this make me a bit scared to invest tons of money into an "eels" army, should i be worried or not?

I made a list. What do you think? Foot Troops are there to sitter back on objectives as the other units run forward, simlpy put. How would you make it better? 

1x King 

10x Thralls 

6x Morrsarr 

3x Ishlaen 

10x Reavers 

980p. (How can i use the last 20p?) 

Cheers! 

I’ve seen a few builds based around a tidecaster general (to reverse the tides) and a mix of thralls, eels and the aspect of the storm with the fuethan enclave. This allows run and charge on the first turn then high tide on turn 2, which generally messes up anything the thralls can reach. 

 

Ultimately depends if you’re taking your army to tournaments or competitive clubs. If not, then fill out with what you want. I’ve squeezed a leviadon, allopex and an aspect of the sea into my 2000 points list and seem to be getting away with it! 

As for eel nerfs, it would be unusual for the warscrolls to get changed but it’s likely they’ll go up in points a bit. For armies with volturnos and massed eels that will be punishing, but if you’ve got a good balance of units then it may just mean a few tweaks to fit your army into your points limit, or no change at all if other units you have come down in cost (reavers and allopexes seem likely and possibly the leviadon as well) 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Azamar said:

I’ve seen a few builds based around a tidecaster general (to reverse the tides) and a mix of thralls, eels and the aspect of the storm with the fuethan enclave. This allows run and charge on the first turn then high tide on turn 2, which generally messes up anything the thralls can reach. 

 

Ultimately depends if you’re taking your army to tournaments or competitive clubs. If not, then fill out with what you want. I’ve squeezed a leviadon, allopex and an aspect of the sea into my 2000 points list and seem to be getting away with it! 

As for eel nerfs, it would be unusual for the warscrolls to get changed but it’s likely they’ll go up in points a bit. For armies with volturnos and massed eels that will be punishing, but if you’ve got a good balance of units then it may just mean a few tweaks to fit your army into your points limit, or no change at all if other units you have come down in cost (reavers and allopexes seem likely and possibly the leviadon as well) 

 

 

Do you have a list to link? Sounds fun! 

My game group is more competitive then casual.  So i want lists that have some teeth 🦁

 

And...thanks Jack for the feedback. That will be my first 1k list. Using most of the battle force box but still made better with some eels and king. 

Please feel free to give me more feedback everyone (if you like it, please write that to so i know!) 

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19 hours ago, Kimbo said:

Thanks for the tip! 

 

I have watched some battle reports and it helps alot! 

 

Anyone else? Any tip on how to build a 1k list from the battle force box? Or should i skip it if the sharks are rather bad? 

I use two Allopex and am considering a third. I always feel that the people that say they are not good have never played with one. I particularly enjoy using them to outflank with a soulscryer and Reavers.  That squad has assasinated a large number of heroes using the almost auto charge rolls, my biggest kill to date is a charge kill on Arkan the Black. The one reroll a phase you can get on the Leviadon with the Akhalian Corp is also quite great, and requires an Allopex.

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4 hours ago, Kimbo said:

Do you have a list to link? Sounds fun! 

My game group is more competitive then casual.  So i want lists that have some teeth 🦁

 

And...thanks Jack for the feedback. That will be my first 1k list. Using most of the battle force box but still made better with some eels and king. 

Please feel free to give me more feedback everyone (if you like it, please write that to so i know!) 

The list I had in mind came 7th at Blackout earlier this year but was more of an eel spam than I remembered (and no eidolon):

basically 2  tidecasters, a souldscryer, 3x10 thralls and 18(!!)  morrsarr in 2 units and 3 ishlean guard. 

I reckon Jackstriecher’s list looks like a good way to use Thralls- like he says, focusing on one or the other between them and eels works better as several characters only buff one type of unit. But a thrall list with a few scattered eels in could still work (although I should add I don’t play in competitions so my view might be skewed)

 

 

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9 hours ago, Sactownbri said:

I use two Allopex and am considering a third. I always feel that the people that say they are not good have never played with one. I particularly enjoy using them to outflank with a soulscryer and Reavers.  That squad has assasinated a large number of heroes using the almost auto charge rolls, my biggest kill to date is a charge kill on Arkan the Black. The one reroll a phase you can get on the Leviadon with the Akhalian Corp is also quite great, and requires an Allopex.

Interesting, can you share your list here? 

Alot of times its about using units the right way and not just stare at the warscroll...now i am even more torn than before 😂 but i will own 2x so i will for sure try them out eventually! 

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On 12/20/2018 at 3:34 PM, JackStreicher said:

So I had another Game (1850 pts) vs stormcasts with a lot of Sequitors (10, 2x5), 6 palladors, a ballista, Lord-Arcanum on gryph charger, Lord-Relictor, Lord-Venator (the flying bow guy), a knight-Aquilor. Celestial Vindicators.

I fielded:

1 Akh. King, Ethereal Amulet and Born from Agony,  a Tidecaster - Steeds of Tide ,  Aspect of the Storm, 30 Thralls, 10 Reavers, 1 Allopex, 6 Morsarr, 3 Ishlean Guard. Dhom-Hain

I tried not to build the List too eel focused since I prefer balanced builds.

we rolled for the scenario (in the Big Rule Book) and we played the first one (Sth. Sth. Glory): you win if you control 4/4 objectives by the start of turn 4. (or if you control the most objectives by the end of turn 5. if it‘s still a draw it‘s decided by killpoints.

 

I placed my units so he couldn‘t deepstrike into my back. He had the first turn, deepatriked, charged my 6 Morsarr with the palladors and 10 Sequitors and pretty much wiped them. The rest of the game was damage control and in the End all I had left we’re my 30 thralls a Tidecaster and one Ishlean Guard. Granted I did a few mistakes and I refused to fix them afterwards in order to learn from them.

my conclusion to the game and the units:

Though most people complain about the eels I feel like you need to build eel-heavy to stand a chance in a competetive Environment which is a pitty for balanced lists.

I kept my Reavers around the Aspect of the Storm which made their shooting damage acceptable: rerolling 1s to wound ( 3 dead Sequitors and 2 wounds on the palladors damage caused within 3 turns). They didn‘t do anything in melee though. The Allopex chewed 2 turns on the ballista.... My heroes were the Ishlean Guards which, as usual dealt a lot of dmg while tanking like demigods. The Aspect was lackluster. The King was okay and died to 6 lucky mortal wounds due to the Palladors mounts (-_-!!). The Morsarr were utter ****** which wasn‘t their fault, but the fault of Turn 1 Alpha- Deepstrikes...🥺

overall I feel like most of the army’s internal point-balance is quite off. Imo the following points would rather fit the actual use of the units (what do you think?)

Aspect of the Sea - 340/360

Aspect of the Storm - 320/340

Leviadon - 320/340

Allopex - 80/100

Reavers - 100

thralls - 120/140

Ishlean 140/160

morsarr 160/180

Soulscryer 120

All Battallions down by 10 to 20. 

Let‘s see what January will bring...

=}

That's interesting, but I have to ask... did you bubble wrap your units at all? If you know he's coming to you, you could make a huge no man's zone with the thralls or reavers  in order to stop them from getting your speels with some room to spare I think? Heck it sounds like your thralls were largely unhurt, and  if you want to try them out then maybe protect them a bit more or invest in a soulscryer for outflank?

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4 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:

That's interesting, but I have to ask... did you bubble wrap your units at all? If you know he's coming to you, you could make a huge no man's zone with the thralls or reavers  in order to stop them from getting your speels with some room to spare I think? Heck it sounds like your thralls were largely unhurt, and  if you want to try them out then maybe protect them a bit more or invest in a soulscryer for outflank?

True. That was one mistake I did, I should have screened the eels with the Reavers for example. The Thralls were too busy holding two objectives (which they did since he didn‘t dare getting close to them). Also I couldn‘t move away from the objectives due to „ride the winds etheric“ and The Unit teleport his Lord relictor had.

I did not want to invest points in the Soulscryer since that‘s what I And pretty much everyone else does. Additionally my opponent is rather an AoS sceptic „this game is so stupid, 40k is much better“ so I didn‘t want to build a too strong alphastrike army.

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25 minutes ago, Gwill_of_the_Woods said:

I'm a regular user of the Dhomain enclave allegiance. Out of curiosity are there any Briomdar users?

I tried it once and it was underwhelming. At 3 deepstriking Units you run out of space to deepstrike them.

the „fly“ is kind of useful though the buffs of the other enclaves are just better

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22 hours ago, Sactownbri said:

I use two Allopex and am considering a third. I always feel that the people that say they are not good have never played with one. I particularly enjoy using them to outflank with a soulscryer and Reavers.  That squad has assasinated a large number of heroes using the almost auto charge rolls, my biggest kill to date is a charge kill on Arkan the Black. The one reroll a phase you can get on the Leviadon with the Akhalian Corp is also quite great, and requires an Allopex.

I don't think it's that they're not good.  I think they're not worth it.  You're almost always better going for eels point for point.  The typical response would be to make the eels cost more.  BOO.  I think the aloplex should be tweaked instead.  Maybe toss a rend on those shooting attacks.  That way, the major melee units don't canabalize each other and instead, alloplexes can serve a different function.

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13 hours ago, Kimbo said:

Interesting, can you share your list here? 

Alot of times its about using units the right way and not just stare at the warscroll...now i am even more torn than before 😂 but i will own 2x so i will for sure try them out eventually! 

Volturnus warlord

Tidecaster + balewind vortex + steelshell pearl  (arcane corrasion)

soulscryer

10 Thralls 

10 Thralls

10 Reavers 

3 Morrsarr

3 Ishlaen

2  Allopex

Leviadon 

Akhelian Corp

 

Lots of flexibility, lots of killing power, lots of shooting, lots of mobility, cover around the Leviadon, that reroll in the Corp, just solid. This is my go to when I have no clue what missions I will be playing or we are playing with the open play deck. I’ve also found that my opponents have a lot of fun most games as well and that makes the game more fun for me. My all eel list with the Eidolon gets lots of frowny faces ☹️.

Edited by Sactownbri
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21 minutes ago, Vextol said:

I don't think it's that they're not good.  I think they're not worth it.  You're almost always better going for eels point for point.  The typical response would be to make the eels cost more.  BOO.  I think the aloplex should be tweaked instead.  Maybe toss a rend on those shooting attacks.  That way, the major melee units don't canabalize each other and instead, alloplexes can serve a different function.

Akhelian Corp is great, really the only one I ever play. Fuethan + High tide, + Allopex  + Supreme Lord of Tides makes Allopex look too cheap. You also need to commit to using them, one alone is meh.

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11 minutes ago, Sactownbri said:

Akhelian Corp is great, really the only one I ever play. Fuethan + High tide, + Allopex  + Supreme Lord of Tides makes Allopex look too cheap. You also need to commit to using them, one alone is meh.

Yeah but...with no buffs at all, a unit of morrsarr does more damage on the charge (by a lot), they aren't monsters, they have 2 more wounds, they move faster, and deal mortal wounds.  Alloplexes feels like a tax in the Corps.

Given, supreme Lord of tides does help this, but spears only loses a little bit of ground on the bite per command point spent and the buffed fanged maws and lashing tails of the guard are enough to outperform the buffed hooks and fins of the alloplexes.  Adding attacks to these outweighs the potential benefit of the increased attacks on the bites.

If you're worried you can't charge the enemy, then yes, alloplexes will outperform on damage but you're probably in a bad way.  Fuethan actually makes eels worse so it's a good one to pick for eel-badness.

I think alloplexes feel like they're "missing" something.  That's why I want a rend on their shooting.  

As a side note, I'm currently painting 3 of them.  Don't get me wrong, I love these guys.  But I can't defend that they are a good competitive choice.  I love the models and I think they're fun and fully support anyone who wants to field them.  If I ever played against alloplexes when someone had a box of eels they could field,  I would buy them a beer. 

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2 hours ago, Vextol said:

Fuethan actually makes eels worse so it's a good one to pick for eel-badness.

Why fuetan makes them worse? 2 attacks on the warscroll benefit the reroll. 

Btw i have 3 fat sharky bois and i love them but never really want to field them in a tournament( aside one for the batallion) : 

Shark have 4 wound less 10 attacks less 2" slower and no great abilities (compared to the defensive eels) 

I think they need a warscroll buff or like the small KO ship a decrease in point cost :/

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6 hours ago, Feanor said:

Why fuetan makes them worse? 2 attacks on the warscroll benefit the reroll. 

Btw i have 3 fat sharky bois and i love them but never really want to field them in a tournament( aside one for the batallion) : 

Shark have 4 wound less 10 attacks less 2" slower and no great abilities (compared to the defensive eels) 

I think they need a warscroll buff or like the small KO ship a decrease in point cost :/

Worse for eels because they lose the retreat and charge turn in the tides 

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So I’ve been doing a lot of listcrafting recently and I can’t quite seem to get a list to work. Do you guys typically run Volturnos as a general to go bonkers on high tide turn? Or the tidecaster to reverse the tide table and get high tide sooner?

I’m thinking I may run an aspect of the storm with the ethereal amulet, as that sounds like a great way to have him never die (except to mortals) especially when buffed with cover (like maybe the spell) and/or mystic shield. 2+ re-rolling? Ok.

I love the aesthetic of the eels so the fact that they’re good is just gravy, and a soulscryer seems very auto include. Perhaps even the tidecaster is auto include for a spell, although I like the wanderer caster who has an automatic unbind. Take that nagash!

Basically I feel leader heavy. Volturnos, AoStorm, Tidecaster and Soulscryer would be a lot of points.

One last thing - how necessary do you guys find screens to be with the ishlaen guard being such great tanks? I’m thinking 2 units of eternal guard for screening/backfield objective capping. 

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4 hours ago, Vextol said:

Worse for eels because they lose the retreat and charge turn in the tides 

Thank you! That's the main reason I like dohm hain. No draw backs that messes with the tides, and the faction rules fits what an aggressive army should be like as long as they get the charge!

19 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

True. That was one mistake I did, I should have screened the eels with the Reavers for example. The Thralls were too busy holding two objectives (which they did since he didn‘t dare getting close to them). Also I couldn‘t move away from the objectives due to „ride the winds etheric“ and The Unit teleport his Lord relictor had.

I did not want to invest points in the Soulscryer since that‘s what I And pretty much everyone else does. Additionally my opponent is rather an AoS sceptic „this game is so stupid, 40k is much better“ so I didn‘t want to build a too strong alphastrike army.

That's a dilemma, but that is also a lot of points holding the backfield to not be doing much to be honest. Playing stormcasts is tricky and so far I only did a few times, but outside of that and experience I have from 40k I have no clue what to say. 

Also, it doesn't seem like he's keeping to the 'non strong alphastrike army' like you are trying to do? 

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I've played a lot comeptitive AoS with Deepkins recently. Mainly two builds Fuethan Reverse Tides Alpha Strike and Dhom-Haim Volturnos Eels, I had more fun with Volturnos but you need Aspect of The Storm in it (in Fuethan you can go both ways) I've used Doppleganger Cloak (pre FAQ), Ethereal Amulet and Cloud of Midnight on him and like Cloud of Midnight best but Ethereal Amulet is great as well. 

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15 hours ago, DantePQ said:

I've played a lot comeptitive AoS with Deepkins recently. Mainly two builds Fuethan Reverse Tides Alpha Strike and Dhom-Haim Volturnos Eels, I had more fun with Volturnos but you need Aspect of The Storm in it (in Fuethan you can go both ways) I've used Doppleganger Cloak (pre FAQ), Ethereal Amulet and Cloud of Midnight on him and like Cloud of Midnight best but Ethereal Amulet is great as well. 

As always I'm interested in your lists 😊

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39 minutes ago, Amradiel said:

As always I'm interested in your lists 😊

Sure 

Dhoim-Haim I use is :

Volturnos, Aspect of the Storm (Cloud of Midnight), Soulscryer, Tidecaster(Steed of Tides), 9 Morssar, 2x6 Morssar

Fuethan is :

Tidecaster, 2xSoulscryer, Aspect of the Storm(Ethereal Amulet), 9 Morssar, 6 Morssar, 5 Heartrenders 

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2 hours ago, DantePQ said:

Sure 

Dhoim-Haim I use is :

Volturnos, Aspect of the Storm (Cloud of Midnight), Soulscryer, Tidecaster(Steed of Tides), 9 Morssar, 2x6 Morssar

Fuethan is :

Tidecaster, 2xSoulscryer, Aspect of the Storm(Ethereal Amulet), 9 Morssar, 6 Morssar, 5 Heartrenders 

Do you use the tidecaster as the general in either of those lists? In the first list, do you feel like the lack of screening units is an issue competitively? And why would you use the cloud of midnight in one list and the amulet in the other?

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Yep in Fuethan Tidecaster got to be general - to reverse the tide ability.I on't think that you need screenin units that much but you got to be good wit deployment it's an issue mainly in Volturnos list, as Fuethan has Namarati to guard objectives and you can screen with them as well. 

Item selection on Aspect is just tesing different options, recently played two games with Volturnos list and switched artifact for those and it opened up a lot of possibilities. 

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11 hours ago, DantePQ said:

Sure 

Dhoim-Haim I use is :

Volturnos, Aspect of the Storm (Cloud of Midnight), Soulscryer, Tidecaster(Steed of Tides), 9 Morssar, 2x6 Morssar

Fuethan is :

Tidecaster, 2xSoulscryer, Aspect of the Storm(Ethereal Amulet), 9 Morssar, 6 Morssar, 5 Heartrenders 

Second list would be illegal as you don't have any battlelines. Unless that is partial and you've got a few units of thralls. 

As to the earlier discussion on reavers, they are terrible for damage and survivability. At 140 points they are probably overcosted from an objective standpoint and definitely overcosted comparative to the other units at that point mark. However, if you want a tidecaster general then you need three nemarti units and taking one unit of reavers to hang around the back / avoid taking up combat space isn't a bad idea. 

It's worth pointing out that for all the strength of the lists we see in tournaments none of them have actually won. Deepkin still seem a fair way behind LoN and DoK in their ability to win at a competitive level. 

For me my biggest bugbear with thralls is their base size and the wholly within rule restrictions. I really think they would have been a better unit on 25mm or if the idoneth had less "wholly within" for range restrictions. 

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