AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[Kenk]

1 minute ago, JackStreicher said:

Due to the new ruling that modifiers are calculated „outside“ of the save first

The Ishlaen rule is still to “ignore the rend characteristic”. Nothing in the new rules conflicts with that.

[Molkaice]

So now Ishlaen are essentially just 4+/3+ always as everything has rend now and saves can't stack.  Wow rend is going to make everything die faster.

I don't know if I'm going to use IDK much until their new book comes as I've never been a fan of using MSU eels as it always feels like they really lack killing power for any sizeable unit.  I think finding an alternative build is better than leaning on MSU.

[azdimy]

The biovoltaic barrier does not increase the save by 1 but changes the warscroll save characteristic to a 3+. You could still increase your save to a 2+ in that instance and remain unrendable

[Rhetoric]

3 hours ago, Molkaice said:

So now Ishlaen are essentially just 4+/3+ always as everything has rend now and saves can't stack.  Wow rend is going to make everything die faster.

I don't know if I'm going to use IDK much until their new book comes as I've never been a fan of using MSU eels as it always feels like they really lack killing power for any sizeable unit.  I think finding an alternative build is better than leaning on MSU.

Ishlaen are still a great unit.  On the charge their save characteristic goes to 3+.  They don’t get +1 to save.  Massive difference.  They will still get the +1 from the Leviadon or cover if they don’t charge.  It’s still a great scroll.  

[Molkaice]

10 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Ishlean Guard:

Hiw does the whole effect stacking work?

Example: They get +1 armour from the Leviadon. They‘re attacked by  a -2 rend attack.

a) Do the modifiers calculate outside of the save: +1-2= -1 rend -> immune to rend so the save stays at 4+
b) the unreadable completely ignores the rend, only adding the positive modifier: 3+ save remains against any kind of rend.

 

Yesterday I played it like a.

If I did it wrong, could someone please direct me to the rules paragraph where I can look it up?

 

7 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Due to the new ruling that modifiers are calculated „outside“ of the save first

If the modifier is done prior then any +1 would be negated by rend prior to the unrendable portion coming into play right?  So the ishlaen would just be a 3/4+ always for the most part.  It not bad, but its hard to swallow the point increase and unit sizes pushing to MSU and use them like before (ishlaen or morsarr)

[Kenk]

13 minutes ago, Molkaice said:

 

If the modifier is done prior then any +1 would be negated by rend prior to the unrendable portion coming into play right?  So the ishlaen would just be a 3/4+ always for the most part.  It not bad, but its hard to swallow the point increase and unit sizes pushing to MSU and use them like before (ishlaen or morsarr)

Could you provide a rule number that suggests anything like that happens?

13.3 (3. Save Roll) says to make a roll, modifying by rend (which can be more than -1).

Ishlaen ignore this modifier.

It then says we cannot modify by more than +1. As others have pointed out, the biovoltaic rule sets the save to 3+, which can then be given a +1, meaning a roll of a 2+ succeeds. 
 

I’m not sure where you’re adding this separate ‘negation’ of the positives phase, but I don’t think it’s the case. At least not with rend. Other penalties would of course still affect Ishlaen.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Kenk

[Molkaice]

You're right I can't find the calculation method that the quote references.  So hopefully we can keep that 2+, however I do need to reevaluate the way of using Morsarr (however when I tried some 3.0 rules it was against FEC terrogheist only army).

 

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Molkaice said:

You're right I can't find the calculation method that the quote references.  So hopefully we can keep that 2+, however I do need to reevaluate the way of using Morsarr (however when I tried some 3.0 rules it was against FEC terrogheist only army).

 

I think we can keep the 2+
I was referring to the sidebar where calculating modifiers is handled (however I can‘t check it since I currently have no access to the core rules) 

[Siorra]

On 6/16/2021 at 2:37 PM, DocKeule said:

I think this would fall under the "specific rules overwrite core rules".

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but until we get a new tome I do believe we lost a ship.

The book says we can take a "maximum of two Etheric Vortex terrain features". The rules say "your army can include 1 faction terrain feature". 1 does not contradict "a maximum of two", so unfortunately I think we need to shelf that second ship for now. It doesn't even sound like you can play split ships any more. Feel free to tell me if I'm wrong, as I'd prefer to be!

[DocKeule]

Of course it contradicts the core rules. The battletome says up to two as part of the IDK allegiance. And according to 1.6 of the core rules, specific abilities overwrite core rules unless they explicitly state the opposite. 

[Kitsumy]

Wtf??? Am i the only one who realized gw just nerf our avatar in todays article????

 

His aura went from 18"<8 and +1 to wound to rerolls 1s....... So gw dont fix useless thralls giving them 2", but delete the aura on melee avatar, because it was so good that was being spamed stomping every tournament.

 

Even worst is, thralls is our best unit now!!! But they forgot to tell people that only 5 each 10 can fight....

Edited June 25, 2021 by Kitsumy
Tone down salty

[Drofnum]

1 hour ago, Kitsumy said:

Wtf??? Am i the only one who realized gw just nerf our allready useless avatar even more in todays article????

 

His aura went from 18"<8 and +1 to wound to rerolls 1s....... So gw dont fix useless thralls giving them 2", but delete the aura on melee avatar, because it was so good that was being spamed stomping every tournament.

 

Even worst is, thralls is our best unit now!!! But they forgot to tell people that only 5 each 10 can fight....

 

Everytime i see thing on this eddition reinforce my statment of this is " the worst ruleset ever"! Haha, will have to wait 1 full year to play a game, maybe after other faq and a ghb they balance this thing

What are you talking about with the Eidolon? The image below is whats posted on the community site.

Also on a more positive note there is this little bit: Each unit’s Prince can issue an All-out Attack command ability.  Which will be nice not to need a hero nearby to issues the command ability.

[Kitsumy]

Ehh?? It wasnt the image posted when i saw it. Did they change it after????

 

I swear im not fooling u. The ability sad whitin 8" and only reroll 1s to wound.

 

So an error? Or they plan to change it to it n the future?

[Drofnum]

1 minute ago, Kitsumy said:

Ehh?? It wasnt the image posted when i saw it. Did they change it after????

 

I swear im not fooling u. The ability sad whitin 8" and only reroll 1s to wound.

 

So an error? Or they plan to change it to it n the future?

It's possible they posted the old ability he had, pre broken realms.

[Leemer]

Been trying to come up with a list that goes heavy into Namarti Reavers as the  triple shot Unleash Hell seems like it could have gas.

Enclave: Dhom-hain

Warlord Battalion

1x Eidolon of the Storm (330)

A: Cloud of Midnight

1x Lotan (75)

1x Soul Render (90)

A: Arcane Tome - Tide of Fear

3x Ishlaen Guard (155)

3x Ishlaen Guard (155)

Battle Regiment

Soul Scryer (140)

General

CT - High Priest

Prayer - Curse

10x Reavers (115)

Battleline

20x Reavers (230)

Battleline

20x Reavers (230)

Battleline

3x Aetherwing (45)

Allies

3x Aetherwing (45)

Allies

1x Leviadon (380)

Points: 1990
Wounds: 129
Drops: 5

Full buffs looks like rapid fire (3 shots), +1 hit (leviadon), rroll 1 (lotann), 6's mortal (curse prayer), +1 wound (eidolon), rroll monster wounds (dom-hain) and resurrection (render).

A unit of 20 Reavers will be looking at 15 wounds and 10 mortals against a 4+ save. Stacking AOA and Leviadon can mitigate the -1hit of unleash hell so you can get a decent amount of damage in.

At the same time the ishlaen, leviadon, eidolon and aetherwings are running interference tagging enemies in combat. The eidolon and leviadon are decent hammers also.

Think Soulsnare Shackles and/or an Annointed on Frostheart (+alpha beast battalion with leviadon) would also work well in this list. Also not decided on CT and the 2nd Artefact after Cloud of Midnight. High priest seemed like a way to make the curse more consistent.

 

[Drofnum]

9 minutes ago, Leemer said:

Been trying to come up with a list that goes heavy into Namarti Reavers as the  triple shot Unleash Hell seems like it could have gas.

Enclave: Dhom-hain

I would change the Enclave to Nautilar possibly.  Get reroll hits when charged, which I think would work with Unleash Hell since it is a reaction to being charged.  Ideally your Namarti arent getting charged but it would help when they are and would help the Ishlaen more than the Dhom-Hain bonuses I think.

I dont think I would even bother with Lotann, even at 75 points an endless spell would probably be better if you're making your soulrender a wizard. Reroll 1's is nice but I still dont really like him for his cost and the aura is fairly small due to his base size.

[Gurtyel]

This is the image they posted originally:

I'm glad they changed it to suit the newest warscroll. It was indeed the one on the original battletome.

[Molkaice]

How did thralls become the best unit?  They still have a paper thin save, difficulty with 2-3 wound models, and the 1 inch reach.  Honestly the biggest issue is still the new rules making it only 5 that can get into combat, it means regardless of the bonus it's still half as effective 

[Kitsumy]

Yes that point is the thing keeping me away from playing aos 3.0. i wont play that ****** untill they fix melee ranges ( 40k rule) or give 2" to thralls.

 

I refuse to buy more eels, i like lists with everything. So i have 2 units of each, only 3 among both eels, so my list was pretty bad allready, and now gw did my bad list unplayable.... Sure maybe spam eels etc could be ok in 3.0 but i dont like that spam list, so wont play till they fix the game

[Baron Klatz]

The way it talked about them being good monster hunters makes me wonder how much of the new Ghur realmscape rules were applying to that outcome. If the tester's opponent was going monster heavy he might have gotten more out of his large namarti force with the Underdog ghur battalion & beast realm buffs being added to them to beat monsters and carve up their supporters.

[Drazhoath]

13 hours ago, Gurtyel said:

This is the image they posted originally:

I'm glad they changed it to suit the newest warscroll. It was indeed the one on the original battletome.

What? They changed the ability again? Oh GW… 

[Baron Klatz]

Stuff like this makes me think the article makers get paid extra when they cause a flare up in the communities.

17 hours ago, Leemer said:

At the same time the ishlaen, leviadon, eidolon and aetherwings are running interference tagging enemies in combat. The eidolon and leviadon are decent hammers also.

Oh wow, I never though about using aetherwings allies before. I always go straight for their tanky or shooty Stormcast units to add survivability.

 

[Leemer]

9 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

Oh wow, I never though about using aetherwings allies before. I always go straight for their tanky or shooty Stormcast units to add survivability.

Yeah I'm a big fan of aetherwings and will pretty much always take at least one unit. They're cheap and versatile, plus you can model them as crabs, fish, seahorses etc.

I find one of the problems with IDK is they don't really have any decent<100 point, sit-on-objective type units or chaff. Your eels are too expensive to fill this role and namarti just aren't very good. I guess allopexes could do it but they still too cost too much IMO.

Aetherwings are ideal for small chaff walls, screening deepstrikes, and objective grabbing. They tend to be very low target priority so good in turns 3/4 to move onto the points your eels have cleared out. Plus at 45pts it really doesnt matter if they die.

Only downside is they're taking up your limited ally quota and there's quite a lot of decent ally options now.

Tree-revs and khainite shadowstalkers could also be good. But I dont have any experience with these and they cost a bit more.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Leemer

[Molkaice]

I'm going to wait for 3.0 to be out in full and try some games but I may be holding off on deepkin u till they get a new book.  Of all times the age of the book is really being felt now, it just feels like we have schizophrenia in our army and too many units that you want to avoid fielding or are too expensive to field how I want.

[Rhetoric]

Has anyone considered a double King build?  Now that +1 To hit CA and Finest Hour is in the game, kitting out a King as a hammer might be something with Unstoppable Fury + Potion of Hateful Frenzy.  

He becomes a source of big damage on the charge with the spear.