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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

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I will say, it's so frustrating to be between so many rules that we know of, but aren't actually out yet. I know selling paper is good business for GW, but honestly this would be so much more reasonable if we could just have those rules digitally. All I want is to know if my summoning plan works in Meeting Engagements! Please GW, gimme those books.

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Hi guys, I'm new to the forum.

I would be interested to have people's views on how many trees can realistically be put down turn one with the new rules, and how that impacts our mobility and how to remedy this... With the old rules, it seemed that with the tree we placed with our allegiance ability, acorn of ages, a Treelord ancient's ability of silent communion and verdant blessing, that we could count on roughly 3 wyldwoods in turn one. Now it seems that if we can get two wyldwoods, that will be on our side of the board we can consider ourselves lucky. 

We lost:

The forest folk ability to teleport once per game

Multiple teleports through woods

Wyldwoods in the opponent's half.

We gained:

A better teleport with tree revenants

Spiteswarm Hive, if that's what it is called...

Any thoughts on how we can still be very mobile on the board?

Edited by TreelordRecent

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21 hours ago, TreelordRecent said:

With the old rules, it seemed that with the tree we placed with our allegiance ability, acorn of ages, a Treelord ancient's ability of silent communion and verdant blessing, that we could count on roughly 3 wyldwoods in turn one. Now it seems that if we can get two wyldwoods, that will be on our side of the board we can consider ourselves lucky. 

We lost:

Wyldwoods in the opponent's half

You couldn’t ever count on three woods down in turn one. You could certainly achieve it, but only the free wood and the acorn were guaranteed. The treelord ancient ability was 50:50 and the spell needed a successful cast. 

We still have access to the acorn (although there are more options available for artefacts now) and the treelord ancient can guarantee a wood now. So arguably you’ve got more chance of getting three more woods down than before if that really is a priority. The only difference is where some of those woods can go. 

We didn’t lose a wood in the opponent’s half of the table, we lost it in the opponent’s deployment zone. Plenty of scenarios have deployment zones that take up less than half a table, and given the roll off for deployment zone, you were never guaranteed it in the enemy zone before. I never saw an opponent opt to deploy around my wood given the choice, but the new rules guarantee that I can plant a wood an inch in front of his line because I place the wood after sides have been chosen, which is arguable better (again, space permitting, which was always the case). 

So on balance, and allowing for the fact that you can’t place woods over objectives any more, the new rules aren’t as bad as some people are making out. What we lose in best case scenario (having a wood in enemy deployment space) we gain elsewhere. 

Overall mobility isn’t hit too badly either. You can still deploy in hidden enclaves and have units enter the table via a forward wood on turn one, and after that you likely won’t need to teleport much. Remember that it’s not just tree revenants that circumvent the teleport limit? All treelord types also have their own spirit paths ability that doesn’t use the 1/turn navigate limit. 

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Hello fellow tree people!

I have a question regarding the new Navigate Realmroots Allegiance Ability. I know, the new BT is not out yet, but I assume most of you already know the rules. I have played a couple small games with the new rules and was wondering if I can use the Navigate Realmroots to retreat out of combat. It says “Instead of making a normal move in your movement phase, 1 friendly SYLVANETH unit wholly within 6” of an AWAKENED WYLDWOOD can navigate the realmroots.”

Is a retreat move considered a normal move? If so, I can retreat out of a combat. If not, I think I’m stuck in combat?

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FAQ for the old Battletome addressed this. You can use Navigate Realmroots while within 3” of an enemy and it does not count as a retreat. 

This might change with the new book, but I don’t see any reason to assume it will for now. 

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I played a 2,000 point game last night with the new rules against a Blades of Khorne army.  Thought I'd give some observations and insights I learned about the new book.

My list: 
Winterleaf Glade
Spirit of Durthu with My Heart is Ice
Drycha Hamadreth with the Treesong Spell
Treelord Ancient with Regrowth
Arch-Revenant with the Frozen Kernal
Branchwraith with Throne of Vines
Branchwraith with Verdurous Harmony
20 Spite Revenants
5 Spite Revenants
5 Revenants
6 Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes
Spiteswarm Hive

 

1) Probably the biggest new factor of the book I noticed from my opponent was his reaction the change to the Treelord stomp.  The way I ran the list was the Kurnoth Hunters flanked by the Durthu and the Ancient on either end and the Arch-Revenant Behind him.  This way if they got charged by his large group of Mighty Skullcrushers as an alpha strike on the Kurnoth Hunters I had 2 chances to stomp the unit and let all three of my units go before them.  This caused him to instead not  charge as fear of it and themselves to get charged the next turn.  I noticed this happened several times during the course of the game as the threat of him going last and letting my hard hitting units all get to go first caused indecision and a wariness of going full bore into my army as he would have done in the past.

When it we did fight, the stomp did really affect the combat phase several times.  Affecting the fight order really helped several times.  If I charged with a few units and I really wished that I could go before 2 of his units, when one got stomped and sent to the end of the phase, the choice was then easy to pick the other unit and hit it.  One turn I charged one of his heroes and the skullcrushers with Durthu and Drycha.  I needed to hit both before they could go so they didn't get a few wounds on my behemoths and knock down Durthu's straight 6 damage or Drycha's attacks.  I got the stomp off on the skullcrushers which allowed Drycha to kill the hero and then Durthu got to go before the skullcrushers and killed 3 before they could strike back.  

Overall, I love this addition to them and the ability really elevates them in my eyes to the point where I actually look at Drycha or another unit of Kurnoth Hunters and the fact that they don't have the stomp ability is a factor in taking them over a Durthu or regular Treelord (not the only factor, but a decent factor).   This new addition to the army's ability to swing the combat phase will be important and will stick with your opponent's decision making IMO, similar to the old wyldwoods' ability to kill running or charging models.

2) The Spite Revenants did well.  It's hard to get all 20 into combat due to their base size and 1" reach compared to Dryads.  However, the extra attack and hitting and wounding better is significant.  Their battleshock abilities also worked several times to clear out a unit mauled by them (one time denying some bloodletters getting models back when they rolled the 1 for the battleshock test...).  They are a glass cannon and I took to seeing the models that didn't get to fight as extra wounds for the unit.  

3) I didn't get a single spell off all game with any of my 4 wizards due to those damned skull judgments and the bloodsecrator so I can't speak to them.  I can say that I'm still up in the air about the hive right now.  It has it's uses but most of the game I didn't feel the need to cast it very often.  It will be a significant buff when you really need that movement or charge though.

4) Sadly, the wyldwoods didn't do a single thing all game for me other than block line of sight for my shooting one round.  The damage in the charge phase never happened due to it needing 1" and a 6 to use and I never got a spell off.  Overall, they didn't seem as necessary or important in the game.  Obviously keeping Durthu or Dryads near them is important, but they were certainly less of a focus.  I will say the Ancient's ability to auto-create one once a game is great.  You can guarantee you can place one with enough space where Durthu will be or to place it down before you cast the Vengeful Skullroot and get that D6 damage because it comes in within 1".  I also think creating one with the Ancient within 1" of a target, then casting treesong on that unit and then charging it will be a great combo.

5) Drycha is a beast and well worth her 320 points.  The mortal wounds off her bugs is fantastic, as is the initial 18" range on them.  Also, being able to switch her forms at the beginning of the battle round is good and helped when he got to go first the 2nd round, but I got to switch her from shooting to melee on his turn.  Buffing all the attacks from the spite revenants is nice too with the big 16" range it has, even if it's wholly within.

6) The change to the treelord impaling talons helped 3 times during the course of the game.  Got a thumbs up from me.

7) Winterleaf is really good.  The double hits are obvious.  For the artifact I used it on the second turn.  The Kurnoth hunters, Durthu, Ancient and Arch-Revenant moved up, The Kurnoth Hunters charged the center of his formation, then got buffed by +1 attack from the AR and then got to attack twice back to back.  Pretty much ripped the heart out of the center of his tightly packed formation and got to the heroes behind the first rank for the second round.  The only thing that stopped the charge from completely decimating a giant part of his army was the skullcrushers saving 10 of 12 wounds.  I put the Frozen Kernal on the Arch-Revenant due to her movement so I could make sure to place her where I knew she could use it after the charge.  If used correctly, the artifact can create a huge amount of momentum for the army, especially since you can protect the Hunters well with the treelord stomps.

 

In my next game I plan on trying out the following:

Gnarlroot Glade
Treelord Ancient with Chalice of Nectar and Nourished by Magic
Treelord Ancient
Treelord
Lords of the Clan
Arch-Revenant with Crown of Fell Bowers
Branchwraith
15 Spite Revenants
5 Spite Revenants
5 Revenants
6 Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes
3 Kurnoth Hunters with Greatswords
Spiteswarm Hive

It's got a lot of the same philosophies as the Winterleaf army above with a few key differences.  First it has another Treelord for yet another stomp.  I'm curious to try out the battalion for the extra mortal wounds and it has some more healing.  The rerolling of 1s should help my bad rolling with treelords.  Then the 2 Ancient staff shots reroll misses when unwounded and it helps with them in melee.   Also, the chalice should help to cast the Hive (all our endless spells need that 7 to cast which has a decent failure rate) and for defense.  It also has more hunters for another hard hitting unit.  Lastly, the AR with the Crown is another buff for the Scythe Hunters.  They don't get to strike twice, but they do get the reroll 1s to hit and then reroll all wounds which should be similar.  Curious to see how it goes and compares.

Edited by Emissary
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Overall, the one thing that stuck with me was my opponent and another friend watching the game say "I thought they said they got nerfed" after the game was over.  Obviously, it's only one game and you can't just make hard conclusions from it, but none of us certainly felt the army was nerfed after the game.  If anything, it felt a little better.

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2 hours ago, Emissary said:

Overall, the one thing that stuck with me was my opponent and another friend watching the game say "I thought they said they got nerfed" after the game was over.  Obviously, it's only one game and you can't just make hard conclusions from it, but none of us certainly felt the army was nerfed after the game.  If anything, it felt a little better.

Who has seriously said we got nerfed? Other than the many-times-flawed update to the 1d4chan tactics page, I don’t think anyone who has seriously looked at the leaks thinks they are a nerf. If they do then they need to look again. 

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I think that what appears really nice with the new book is that every unit is now playable.  You could legitimately build a solid list that includes any of the units at our disposal. It will certainly make things more interesting for us and our opponents.

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18 minutes ago, Trevelyan said:

Who has seriously said we got nerfed? Other than the many-times-flawed update to the 1d4chan tactics page, I don’t think anyone who has seriously looked at the leaks thinks they are a nerf. If they do then they need to look again. 

I think they had just seen the initial reactions and that was all.  When they came out they were most keen on the Wyldwood changes (as they hated them most) saw that they weren't as dangerous as before and saw it as verification of their initial thought.

13 minutes ago, TreelordRecent said:

I think that what appears really nice with the new book is that every unit is now playable.  You could legitimately build a solid list that includes any of the units at our disposal. It will certainly make things more interesting for us and our opponents.

I agree overall, though I really don't like the bow Kurnoth Hunters much.

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As someone who build 3 sets of bow hunters as I thought they looked good I can only agree! They are quite swingy.

That being said with the heartwood enclave and the artefact of the horn of the consort, 3 sets of bow hunters can do about about 17 wounds per turn on a 4+ save unit. Having managed to clear a lord of change in one turn I think there are lists where they can work quite well.

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That awkward moment when just bringing in Sisters of the Watch allies at 160 points overshadows your own ranged units.

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33 minutes ago, TreelordRecent said:

As someone who build 3 sets of bow hunters as I thought they looked good I can only agree! They are quite swingy.

That being said with the heartwood enclave and the artefact of the horn of the consort, 3 sets of bow hunters can do about about 17 wounds per turn on a 4+ save unit. Having managed to clear a lord of change in one turn I think there are lists where they can work quite well.

Problem is that's 600 points in bow hunters do that.  I've found that can be done in 1 turn with 3 of the other two types of Hunters.

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Sisters of the watch are really good but I think that the extra range, better save, realm roots and better melee does make up for the extra 40 points. I certainly considered using glade guard and wayfinders in my lists.

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2 minutes ago, Emissary said:

Problem is that's 600 points in bow hunters do that.  I've found that can be done in 1 turn with 3 of the other two types of Hunters.

That’s true. The wound output of 6-9 scythe hunters boosted by the arch revenant, and alarielle did make me buy more kurnoths.  Add dreadwood to that and pop them 9 inches away from the enemy with cogs and/or the spite swarm hive and you’re laughing. (I know that’s a lot of extra boosters and maybe only 1-2 will happen but that’s just an example of what you can use to make that unit better).

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48 minutes ago, Emissary said:

Problem is that's 600 points in bow hunters do that.  I've found that can be done in 1 turn with 3 of the other two types of Hunters.

Yeah been having this debate locally.

If not doing Heartwood Bows for ranged damage vs FEC, Khorne, Slaanesh, Daughters, Idoneth, Fyreslayers, etc., or generally having ranged damage vs Activation Wars and powerful combat units, then we're relying on Groundshaking Stomp, all else equal.

And if we're investing a lot into individual models (Durthu, TLA, Treelords), that's reducing our model count and potential ability to compete in scenarios w/ lots of objectives (e.g. Better Part of Valour and the new Scorched Earth). 

If we're not doing 3-4 drop and playing like we used to (getting woods out and bunkering on objs), then we need to be able to do enough damage, quickly, to catch back up on objs (in a # of scenarios) later in the game, since many opponents will have gone first and bunkered.

We also need to be able to survive a strong alpha strike, since opponents out-dropping us could go first and try to pin us in our deployment zone, while they're scoring objs. 

Thankfully our damage output potential has gone up considerably, but I'm still not sure whether to focus on Stomps vs Activation Wars, or meaningful long-range damage (Heartwood Bows), and then balancing that ranged damage with some combat punch (in that regard, I like Heartwood's RR 1's to hit and wound CA + combined w/ Arch-Rev's +1A for a unit).

Edited by scrubyandwells
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Of course, 120 Spite-Revenants in double Outcasts for 1,400pts seems like a good competitive answer, but spam is tasteless to most folks for a reason. :)

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In the meta I play in there are a few players with competitive idoneth, Khorne and FEC. Having had a few units deleted quite quickly I can certainly see the value in getting rid of one threat at a time and having a lot of wounds on the board. Most of the lists I play against can easily delete Durthu and Alarielle in one turn. Getting rid of the opponent’s main threat is really helpful!

The answer may be dependent on what the points for FEC, Khorne and other factions with very powerful heroes change to. We will know soon enough!

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Forest Folk looks reasonably compelling, especially in a low drop list w/ a TLA to get at least one reliable Wyldwood out and bunker some Dryads in it, a la old-school Sylvaneth. The retreat-and-still-charge ability could come into play a fair amount. Opens up pinball options for greater mobility outside of our now more limited teleport. And a unit of 20-30 Dryads w/ +1A from Arch-Rev and other buffs (e.g. Winterleaf, etc.) could do a lot of work in combat.

Not as high on Lords of the Clan at the moment, since two TLAs is one too many IMO. You don't get two auto-Wyldwoods from two TLA -- just one. The extra stomp can be nice, but it's 600pts into 2 models that don't tend to do much in shooting or combat.

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50 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

Forest Folk looks reasonably compelling, especially in a low drop list w/ a TLA to get at least one reliable Wyldwood out and bunker some Dryads in it, a la old-school Sylvaneth. The retreat-and-still-charge ability could come into play a fair amount. Opens up pinball options for greater mobility outside of our now more limited teleport. And a unit of 20-30 Dryads w/ +1A from Arch-Rev and other buffs (e.g. Winterleaf, etc.) could do a lot of work in combat.

 

I think Harvestboon is the best wargrove to use when considering forest folk. Units from this battalion benefit the most from “retreat and charge” since they RR 1’s on the turn they charged. Pair that with the double extra attack from the groves command ability and Arch-revenants command ability, and dryads are doing 4 attacks apiece, hitting on 3’s (in your turn) RR 1’s, and wounding on 4’s. I also think this would be a good set up to take advantage of the Sisters of the Thorn  to give them a little extra protection in your enemies turn. 3+ save RR failed and doing MW on 4+ is no joke. 
 

50 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

Not as high on Lords of the Clan at the moment, since two TLAs is one too many IMO. You don't get two auto-Wyldwoods from two TLA -- just one. The extra stomp can be nice, but it's 600pts into 2 models that don't tend to do much in shooting or combat.


I think LotC is a trap. It’s tempting to take because its a 3 model battalion with a very low battalion price tag.  Of course 2 TLA’s is really a waste unless your playing Gnarlroot and looking to get another tanky caster on the table.  

 

2 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

we're relying on Groundshaking Stomp, all else equal.


A lot of players are down on abilities that interrupt the turn order. Generally speaking I really like the mechanic, since its the only reliable counter for models who have a stupidly high damage output. I’m also used to playing with it, having a lot of wargaming experience from the WHFB days and seeing high elves on the table frequently (an army where every model struck first regardless of activations or turns.) I’m beginning to look at this mechanic a lot like players felt about endless spells or double turns; it’s relatively new, but we’ll get used to it.

That being said, 200pts for access to a 50/50 stomp is an absolute steal in our army. Treelords gained a lot of healing potential, and if you run them paired with a screen (t-revs or spites) they’re going to be tough to remove without some seriously focused attention. I’d be curious to see if @swarmofseals has done any calculations on how much a strike last ability raises a units offensive/defensive efficiency, since it effectively combines the attacks of every unit striking against whatever has been effected AND allows you to more efficiently activate your other units across the board. 


 

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18 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

I’d be curious to see if @swarmofseals has done any calculations on how much a strike last ability raises a units offensive/defensive efficiency, since it effectively combines the attacks of every unit striking against whatever has been effected AND allows you to more efficiently activate your other units across the board. 

Unfortunately this can't really be factored into offensive efficiency in that it's completely dependent on unpredictable factors like the damage output of the target unit and the total damage you can deal to that unit with whatever gets to strike first. Basically the value of the ability is directly proportional to the offense that you can bring to bear early and the offense of the enemy unit that is delayed and gets reduced by casualties.

I'm not really convinced about the Treelord yet mostly because of the speed problem. The AGKoTG and keepers are as good as they are largely because they are really fast in addition to striking first, so you can often pick combats where the ability is most advantageous more easily. Treelords are both unreliable and relatively slow, so it's going to be much harder to manufacture a situation where you really get to crush your opponent by disrupting sequencing. The Treelord itself is not very efficient, so in order for the striking first to matter you really need to pair it with a high offense unit which further complicates matters. It definitely has the potential to be good, but I'm not sold on it yet and would really like to see how it plays out in actual games.

As far as Wargroves go, I find it a little amusing that you're such a proponent of Harvestboon. You might well be correct, but Harvestboon definitely strikes me as the "combat efficiency first" choice which isn't the way you usually approach things. I'm wary mostly because Sylvaneth has been able to get by despite it's relatively slow speed by leaning on several factors: the ability to nearly guarantee the first turn and drop right onto objectives, supplementing with fast units like the Frostheart Phoenix, and Alarielle who is quite fast. Now I'm not so sure we will be able to drop onto objectives nearly so reliably, which makes slow speed much more of a liability (particularly given the potential complications posed by the new terrain rules). We no longer get to take the frostie (and might not want to anyway given the points increase), and Alarielle is significantly more expensive. She might still be good enough, but it's at least less clear now. That makes me think that the more mobility focused wargroves (like Dreadwod in particular) might be necessary to compensate for these difficulties. 

 

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4 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Unfortunately this can't really be factored into offensive efficiency in that it's completely dependent on unpredictable factors like the damage output of the target unit and the total damage you can deal to that unit with whatever gets to strike first. Basically the value of the ability is directly proportional to the offense that you can bring to bear early and the offense of the enemy unit that is delayed and gets reduced by casualties.


This all makes sense, but with the prevalence of these types of abilities there has to be some way to account for it. Abilities that affect activation order remind me a little of abilities that give blanket buffs or debuffs, that don’t really offer anything to the unit providing the buffs. If memory serves, in the early days of AOS in first iterations of the GHB there was guy who claimed that “combat efficiency” was the only stat that mattered and that games could be predicted based solely on the armies combat efficiency score. Every unit in the game got an A-F rating for it’s efficiency based on it’s ability to do damage relative to its points. But units like the celestial hurricanium got very low scores, ignoring the fact that it significantly increased the damage metrics of everything around it and allowed Sylvaneth to dominate the early competitive scene. 

I’m not saying you’re wrong, but force multiplying units like TL stomps or Slaanesh’s Locus of diversion are going to play a huge part in the meta going forward and it’s best to find some way to find someway to quantify that a little. 
 

4 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I'm not really convinced about the Treelord yet mostly because of the speed problem. The AGKoTG and keepers are as good as they are largely because they are really fast in addition to striking first, so you can often pick combats where the ability is most advantageous more easily. Treelords are both unreliable and relatively slow, so it's going to be much harder to manufacture a situation where you really get to crush your opponent by disrupting sequencing. The Treelord itself is not very efficient, so in order for the striking first to matter you really need to pair it with a high offense unit which further complicates matters. It definitely has the potential to be good, but I'm not sold on it yet and would really like to see how it plays out in actual games.


I feel like AGKoTG is a fringe case, albeit at the moment a very dominate one. IIRC the current top winner of ITC played the FEC list at Nova this year and wiped everything off the board. It’s not the faction itself that is particularly dominant, but that particular unit because it hits hard, is terribly mobile, and disrupts the combat sequencing. It’s very hard to take any other army and write an all-comers list that can field well against the broader meta AND handle Gristlegore, so the comparison between it and the TL is not a fair one at the moment.  I’m anticipating some sort of change to this on Sat with the impending GHB update. I’m not sure what this will be, but I think there’s a good chance something will change. 

In regards to the TL itself, it’s important to remember that a TL’s mobility increased dramatically with the number of WW we have on the board, A treelord might only be able to move 6”, but 6” isn’t really 6” with teleport. A pair of Treelords can easily cross the entire board with a screen of  T-rev’s and still have a free teleport to bring in something with combat power, 2 teleports if playing Dreadwood. With KoS and AGKoRT have excellent movement and attacking power, they do not have the ability to teleport, which means you should reasonably able to determine their threat radius and account for that. As a fellow 5th edition wood elf player I’m fairly well versed in assessing what will come into play and what will not come into play on a model with a fixed movement value.     

 

4 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

As far as Wargroves go, I find it a little amusing that you're such a proponent of Harvestboon. You might well be correct, but Harvestboon definitely strikes me as the "combat efficiency first" choice which isn't the way you usually approach things. 


I’m not exactly a proponent of Harvestboon. I think that it could be viable for a certain playstyle, but that’s likely not my first choice. I will probably be playing Dreadwood first. I was simply pointing out that if I were to play Harvestboon, I think forest folk would be a good fit battalion-wise. 
 

4 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I'm wary mostly because Sylvaneth has been able to get by despite it's relatively slow speed by leaning on several factors: the ability to nearly guarantee the first turn and drop right onto objectives, supplementing with fast units like the Frostheart Phoenix, and Alarielle who is quite fast. Now I'm not so sure we will be able to drop onto objectives nearly so reliably, which makes slow speed much more of a liability (particularly given the potential complications posed by the new terrain rules). We no longer get to take the frostie (and might not want to anyway given the points increase), and Alarielle is significantly more expensive. She might still be good enough, but it's at least less clear now. That makes me think that the more mobility focused wargroves (like Dreadwod in particular) might be necessary to compensate for these difficulties. 


While I understand this has been the dominant playstyle with Sylvaneth, it’s not at all close to mine. In the old book, I played Dreadwood competitively, which mostly focused of extensive use of chaff, high damage output in a very focused area of the board, and long-lasting tar pits. I did make extensive use of alpha-bunkering by including 30 drayds and a TLA however, but I  think we are still reasonably capable of doing that with a little planning. I never used Alarielle or the Phoenix and still did very well in competitive tournaments. 

I’m wary of detailing all the things we can do in the new book, or detailing the particulars of why I think TL’s and T-revs are going to be the backbone of competitive Sylvaneth play going forward, because when I do, the inevitable reply is “Well, that will never work against X build/army”, or “you’ll never be able to make those scenarios happen” or “what if x spell is dispelled or you fail that 4” charge” (as if any those scenarios hadn’t crossed my mind). It’s been my experience that the best build for an army exploits its designed strengths and minimizes its inherent weaknesses. As such, while I recognize that TL’s aren’t super efferent, I never build Sylvaneth solely for combat efficiency. Combat efficiency is certainly something I consider in my playstyle (because you have to fight sometime), but it’s only 1 phase of the game (I might even say that the only combat phase you should plan on winning is yours while you set up units to sacrifice in your opponents turn; i.e. chaff), and it very possible to win games based almost entirely on movement.

Which is why I’m surprised you characterize Sylvaneth as a low speed army. My experience is just the opposite. Most games are fought over control of 25-30% of the objectives on the board, i.e. if there are 4 objectives only 1 will change hands frequently and another might change hands 1-2 times. For the most part, I don’t see that changing because the way lists are written and the way armies are designed, most armies can’t fight everywhere at once. Few armies are capable of fighting for backfield objectives controlled by their enemy, because they lack the necessary movement to successfully threaten those objectives while still maintaining pressure on anything midfield while simultaneously holding their own backfield. The better the player, the more objectives they can threaten. Despite our low movement values, we are exceptionally good at doing this: our threat range is actually quite large between flying units, teleports and LoS blocking terrain.   

While I’m withholding concrete judgements on our new book, initial battle reports look very promising. I think there will be a much clearer picture on Saturday when we get the full and complete breakdowns of points changes for all the factions (I know most have been leaked already, but Skaven, FEC and Slaanesh will be released as addendums.) I actually think the new scenery rules will make it easier to get our own terrain out on the table, while posing a bigger problem for other factions who are much more limited by initial terrain drops. It remains to be seen exactly how this will be applied in competitive play going forward, but for single match-ups I think it’s a real boon for us.  

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