AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[HollowHills]

1) Regarding previous discussion I don't think judging whether the new rules make Sylvaneth competitive versus Gristlegore is a good indicator of the quality of the book. I say this as a relatively competitively minded player. If it was it would be an example of power creep to an extreme and further disadvantage other armies, rather than levelling the field. It seems more logical to tone these other armies down when the new GHB comes out next month. I think you can expect to see DoK, Skaven, LoN and FEC units from the most competitive lists to see extreme point increases. Same as happened with other very strong lists in the past such as Tzeentch and Kunnin Ruk,

2) Request for advice. Bearing in mind old experience and new rules, how many Wyldwoods am I likely to need for 1000 point and under games?

[ElectricPaladin]

Here's a question: given that most buffs now require "wholly within" and dryads are on great big 32mm bases, are "full" squads of 30 dryads still a good idea? Or are we better off with teams of 20?

[TheGrayKing]

Trying to build a list for the new book. Here's what I have so far:

Arch-Revenant

Branchwraith

Spirit of Durthu

Treelord Ancient

20x Spite-Revenants

5x Spite-Revenants

5x Spite-Revenants

6x Kurnoth Hunters w/Scythe

Gladewyrm

Spiteswarm Hive

 

The list comes out to 1720/2000 I am having issues filling in the last 280 points and whether I should run a this as Winterleaf, Dreadwood or choose not to run a Glave so I can choose my CA and Artifacts. Any and all help is greatly appreciated.

Edited May 28, 2019 by TheGrayKing
Added last sentence.

[ElectricPaladin]

Wait just one minute. ALL Sylvaneth wizards now know the spell to spawn wyldwoods?! Awesome!

[Aezeal]

1 hour ago, jake3991 said:

Everqueen- 1 drop

6 hunters- 1 drop

Arch rev- 1 drop

Forest folk (3 units of dryads and 1 wraith) - 1 drop

Total: 4 drops

Missed forest folk sry. Even reread it 2 times.

[jake3991]

Ignore

Edited May 28, 2019 by jake3991

[Aezeal]

First list

Aiming for something basic. Not too many fancy things that might or might not do well.

I think our battleline units now all have something in favor for them (TRevs not that much... But 5 are cheap and teleport can be useful to screen or possibly objective grab). Glade will be winterleaf because without fancy stuff or putting a lot on a dancing durthu (harvestboon)it just has the best all round ability that just works on everyone in every combat phase. Also bodies are good.. (Even though FEC says differently but we can't play that game)

So:

The basis:

Winterleaf

30 dryads 270

20 spites 200

5 trev 80

Arch revenant 100

Branchwraith 80 throne of vines 

So far 630

 

Another free forest and a mage and some hitting power and shooting

Treelord Ancient 300 regrowth

Subtotal 930

 

Then some of the good stuff with point decreases

Durthu 340 (general getting both winterleaf artefact and CT)

Treelord 200

Subtotal 1470

 

And then some more raw power

2 x 3 swordhunters or 2 bows or one of each

Subtotal 1870

Cogs 60

Total 1930

+1 command point

 

I think the simple combination of wraith + cogs + throne hasn't been mentioned yet but I think it has some potential. Throne turn 1. Cogs and summon turn 2. Summon and maybe another forest turn 3.

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Aezeal

[scrubyandwells]

11 minutes ago, jake3991 said:

Winterleaf: The buff here is that 6s turn into 2 hits. 

Standard shooting: 4.3 hits

-1 to hit: 3.32 hits

Winterleaf Winter's Bite (6's = 2 hits) is melee weapons only...

Signed,

Fun Killer

[jake3991]

Just now, scrubyandwells said:

Winterleaf Winter's Bite (6's = 2 hits) is melee weapons only...

Signed,

Fun Killer

Good call! Damn, trying so hard to make bow hunters work!

[scrubyandwells]

50 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

2) Request for advice. Bearing in mind old experience and new rules, how many Wyldwoods am I likely to need for 1000 point and under games?

I'd think 4 of the new Awakened Wyldwood kits (i.e. a total of 12 Citadel Woods "models") should suffice for 1K or under.

[heiza]

 

1 minute ago, jake3991 said:

Good call! Damn, trying so hard to make bow hunters work!

U can't make work bow kurnoth when u see jezzails skaven warscrool buff they can have

[Aezeal]

8 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

Winterleaf Winter's Bite (6's = 2 hits) is melee weapons on

Signed,

Fun Killer

Bit you can rr 1's from archie though

 

[Freejack02]

11 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

Bit you can rr 1's from archie though

You can just go Heartwood and reroll all hits... the problem (to me) with bow hunters is that so much of their point value is tied up in their survivability, and teleporting around the board with a 30" range should really mitigate the need for it. Something like Jezzails or SCE Longbows are just better suited to be artillery units because all their points are really spent on offense, while Bow Hunters really shine more when they're soaking up attacks WHILE shooting (but the 2.0 shooting rules sort of killed target selection). 

They just need to put more on the offense side of their kit

[scrubyandwells]

Of course it's way early, but Heartwood is the initial front-runner in my mind for an all-comers build.

While maybe not as sexy as some of the others (hi, Winterleaf), it seems to provide meaningful ranged damage vs Activation Wars, while still having some anti-horde pieces (e.g. pick two (maybe three): Alarielle, Drycha, Durthu/Double Durthu, 3-6 Sword Hunters, or maybe 20-40 Spites), along with a decent # of bodies.

Heartwood lists are also looking pretty good even with 5 drops, but remains to be seen if we need that low of a drop-count.

One general challenge is how to get off a reliable bonus to move/charge, especially for teleport charges, while staying within a Glade. 

With Heartwood, have been looking at: 

1. Alarielle w/ Throne + Spiteswarm or Cogs 

• Option 1: Throne, Spiteswarm, Verdant (w/ Acorn on Bwraith), puts alpha strike on table + hopefully maintains our ability to have 3 Wyldwoods on table after T1 even if we go second (but the degree of importance now re: multi-Wyldwoods is unclear...)
• Option 2: Throne, Cogs (slow time), Verdant, 4th spell via Cogs + RR saves for Alarielle, but have to setup/wait for turn 2 strike

2. One Bwraith w/ Acorn and another w/ Throne; Throne cast T1 to then cast Spiteswarm T2 for bonus to move/charge (requires Bwraith staying put T1)

3. One Bwraith w/ Spiritsong Stave and Throne to cast Throne then Spiteswarm; puts alpha strike on table for T1 but you lose Acorn

Edited May 28, 2019 by scrubyandwells

[scrubyandwells]

[Removed double post]

Edited May 28, 2019 by scrubyandwells

[scrubyandwells]

Another thing to consider is 1x6 Kurnoth Bows instead of 2x3, so that if you need to teleport all of them out of harm's way, you can (as long as you have somewhere for them to land...). This isn't great with Heartwood RR hits artefact on a Bwraith, though, since you may have to teleport her as well, which runs into our new Nav Realmroot once/turn limit.

Thankfully, the artefact bubble is wholly within 12", so with a Bwraith moving 7" and then running, that's decent board coverage even without teleporting her.

An Arch-Rev would give greater mobility to keep the artefact in range of the Bows (or other Kurnoth) for the RRs to hit, but he has some misalignment in lists I've been looking at, unless going both, say, 6 Bows and 6 Swords, so that you can better leverage his CA.

At the same time, with our ******-for-all CP generation, it may be a moot point, since you'll be spending CP on the Glade CA, charge RRs, etc.

Edited May 28, 2019 by scrubyandwells

[scrubyandwells]

4 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

Another thing to consider is 1x6 Kurnoth Bows instead of 2x3, so that if you need to teleport all of them out of harm's way, you can (as long as you have somewhere for them to land...). This isn't great with Heartwood RR hits artefact on a Bwraith, though, since you may have to teleport her as well, which runs into our new Nav Realmroot once/turn limit.

...

Sorry for double post. Still no way to delete posts? 

Edited May 28, 2019 by scrubyandwells

[Aezeal]

1 hour ago, scrubyandwells said:

Of course it's way early, but Heartwood is the initial front-runner in my mind for an all-comers build.

At first glance I don't think heartwood brings enough unless you go kurnoth heavy. Like 5 units of hunters. And then some stuff to guarantee some woods (TLA). Artefact on a wraith behind 9 bowhunters. Archie putting the CA, his buff and his CA on 6 swordhunters (forget scythes). While at it add Durthu and spirits for lower drops and a nice artefact on Big D. 

That brings us on 1960 without battleline though which is a problem to be solved by deleting 3 bow hunters for 3 units of spites I think. Which leaves 60 points.. Just enough for cogs. And done.

PS maybe forget an offensive artefact on Big D make the item something so the TLA can reliably cast Harmony: vesperal gem or increase survivability.. in this list (MSU hunters) life wreath seems to have great potential.

 I think messing with Alarielle doesn't leave enough room for hunters to be worth choosing heartwood over winterleaf.

 

Btw.. damn The high casting values on the spells. Even with 5s and 6s I hardly got stuff through .. Now it'll be worse. 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Aezeal

[Zanzou]

3 hours ago, heiza said:

i really think the salvation of this new batlletome is in kurnoth with sword

The problem is that swords were already fine and GW kind of ignored Kurnoth Hunters with bows who are pretty weak in most glades. 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Zanzou

[Mirage8112]

I’m going to push my luck again and ask what might be a weird rules interaction question:

The new warscroll battalions have a peculiar wording in regards to command traits. From Winterleaf: “A Winterleaf general must have this command trait, instead of one listed on pg. 66”

Fair enough. If you have a Winterleaf General, he must have that Command trait and cannot choose another.

The core rules says, on page 242, that “Named characters such as Nagash Archaon and Alarielle are singular and mighty warriors, with their own personalities and artifacts of power. as such, those models cannot have a command trait or artifact of power.”

Fair enough, if you have Alarielle as your general she cannot pick an additional command trait. But, based on the wording above, what if you make Alarielle the general of a Winterleaf wargrove? It says the “General must have this command trait”, which takes precedence? The designers commentary for the core rules has this question:

Q: If a warscroll or set of allegiance abilities has a rule that contradicts the core rules, can I use it? For example, Lord Kroak has a rule that allows him to attempt to cast Celestial Deliverance up to three times in the hero phase, but this contradicts the core rule that you can only attempt to cast a spell once per turn. 

A: Warscrolls and allegiance abilities take precedence over the core rules, allowing you to do things that would not normally be allowed. In the case of Lord Kroak, his rule means he can attempt to cast Celestial Deliverance up to three times in the same turn

We’ve also seen this with FEC, where the Gristlegore Terrorgiests count as battleline units and thus do not count as behemoths in an explicit FAQ; another example where a core rule is altered by something akin to our wargroves.

Q: In a Pitched Battle, Royal Terrogheists and Royal Zombie Dragons from a Gristlegore army are Battleline. Are they still counted Behemoths as well?
A: No.

GHW has already ruled that warscrolls  “take precedence over the core rules” in nearly every case where there is a conflict. 

I understand that the rules include the phrase “instead of the ones listed on pg. 66”. But before you say, “because Alarielle cannot choose an command trait, this prevents her from taking a warscroll battalion one”, consider that this type of rules interaction has come up before in regard to summoning dryads with the Branchwraiths spell. When a unit of Drayds is summoned to the board, they cannot move in the following movement phase. The question was asked “can they still use the realmroots, since the wording of realmroots includes the “instead of moving normally” since they can’t move normally”. After much discussion on that point, I (and I think we?) came down on the “yes” side.  Just because they “can’t” do one doesn’t mean they dont have the option of doing the other.

Much akin to the syllogism:  “instead of running, you must sit”. “I don’t have legs so I can’t run anyway” “Then you must sit.”

I understand the reticence to go against the core rule book, but armybooks repeatedly trump core rules restrictions. Yes gamey perhaps, but again, Gristlegore and Kroak are perfect examples where this is happening.  Can anybody give me a solid rules-referenced based perspective on this? 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Mirage8112

[Mirage8112]

56 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

At first glance I don't think heartwood brings enough unless you go kurnoth heavy. Like 5 units of hunters. And then some stuff to guarantee some woods (TLA). Artefact on a wraith behind 9 bowhunters. Archie putting the CA, his buff and his CA on 6 swordhunters (forget scythes). While at it add Durthu and spirits for lower drops and a nice artefact on Big D. 

Just FYI I think this is by design. The old heartwood battalion required the Free spirits battalion and at least 4 units of hunters

[Warheadsbylink]

46 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

I’m going to push my luck again and ask what might be a weird rules interaction question:

The new warscroll battalions have a peculiar wording in regards to command traits. From Winterleaf: “A Winterleaf general must have this command trait, instead of one listed on pg. 66”

Fair enough. If you have a Winterleaf General, he must have that Command trait and cannot choose another.

The core rules says, on page 242, that “Named characters such as Nagash Archaon and Alarielle are singular and mighty warriors, with their own personalities and artifacts of power. as such, those models cannot have a command trait or artifact of power.”

Fair enough, if you have Alarielle as your general she cannot pick an additional command trait. But, based on the wording above, what if you make Alarielle the general of a Winterleaf wargrove? It says the “General must have this command trait”, which takes precedence? The designers commentary for the core rules has this question:

Q: If a warscroll or set of allegiance abilities has a rule that contradicts the core rules, can I use it? For example, Lord Kroak has a rule that allows him to attempt to cast Celestial Deliverance up to three times in the hero phase, but this contradicts the core rule that you can only attempt to cast a spell once per turn. 

A: Warscrolls and allegiance abilities take precedence over the core rules, allowing you to do things that would not normally be allowed. In the case of Lord Kroak, his rule means he can attempt to cast Celestial Deliverance up to three times in the same turn

We’ve also seen this with FEC, where the Gristlegore Terrorgiests count as battleline units and thus do not count as behemoths in an explicit FAQ; another example where a core rule is altered by something akin to our wargroves.

Q: In a Pitched Battle, Royal Terrogheists and Royal Zombie Dragons from a Gristlegore army are Battleline. Are they still counted Behemoths as well?
A: No.

GHW has already ruled that warscrolls  “take precedence over the core rules” in nearly every case where there is a conflict. 

I understand that the rules include the phrase “instead of the ones listed on pg. 66”. But before you say, “because Alarielle cannot choose an command trait, this prevents her from taking a warscroll battalion one”, consider that this type of rules interaction has come up before in regard to summoning dryads with the Branchwraiths spell. When a unit of Drayds is summoned to the board, they cannot move in the following movement phase. The question was asked “can they still use the realmroots, since the wording of realmroots includes the “instead of moving normally” since they can’t move normally”. After much discussion on that point, I (and I think we?) came down on the “yes” side.  Just because they “can’t” do one doesn’t mean they dont have the option of doing the other.

Much akin to the syllogism:  “instead of running, you must sit”. “I don’t have legs so I can’t run anyway” “Then you must sit.”

I understand the reticence to go against the core rule book, but armybooks repeatedly trump core rules restrictions. Yes gamey perhaps, but again, Gristlegore and Kroak are perfect examples where this is happening.  Can anybody give me a solid rules-referenced based perspective on this? 

You can select Alarielle as your general but she doesn't get the command trait as per designers commentary.

https://imgur.com/a/QwLx1eK

[Aezeal]

4 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

Just FYI I think this is by design. The old heartwood battalion required the Free spirits battalion and at least 4 units of hunters

Yeah it's obviously both lore and rule wise a hunter heavy glade.  I guess alarielle could be used instead of a unit of hunters (summon it), TL and TLA. Not sure that would be better since you'd loose some wounds,  an auto forest, the combos in delaying enemy strikes, and you'd not gain much in shooting or combat :probably loosing a bit of damage really. 

Am I the only one who thinks cogs are better than the swarm  btw?

[Freejack02]

Does anyone know why the ability of Free Spirits is worded the way it is? It seems like they are intentionally trying to state the unit isn't technically 'running'... 

"In your movement phase, if you declare a unit from this battalion will run, do not make a run roll. Instead, add 6" to the Move characteristic of that unit for that phase"

Why wouldn't they just say "the run roll is treated as being a 6" like the Core Rules wording... unless they are specifically avoiding that. Can anyone provide a parallel ability that is similarly worded from a different faction/source?

[jake3991]

42 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

Does anyone know why the ability of Free Spirits is worded the way it is? It seems like they are intentionally trying to state the unit isn't technically 'running'... 

"In your movement phase, if you declare a unit from this battalion will run, do not make a run roll. Instead, add 6" to the Move characteristic of that unit for that phase"

Why wouldn't they just say "the run roll is treated as being a 6" like the Core Rules wording... unless they are specifically avoiding that. Can anyone provide a parallel ability that is similarly worded from a different faction/source?

 Hope they iron this one out quick, I agree  its very confusing. 

Edited May 28, 2019 by jake3991