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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

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1 hour ago, Siegfried VII said:

What I find weird myself is the lack from a response from GW on the battletome... There are people who have it and have bought it so I thought we would get at least a response... 

GW even admitting sylvaneth got delayed- even if they blamed other countries- was the most I’ve ever seen them stop and fully acknowledge something. I wouldn’t be surprised if at this point they’ll keep their mouth shut about the mistaken release just so that share holders won’t worry that they’re incompetent.. 

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10 minutes ago, Zanzou said:

GW even admitting sylvaneth got delayed- even if they blamed other countries- was the most I’ve ever seen them stop and fully acknowledge something. I wouldn’t be surprised if at this point they’ll keep their mouth shut about the mistaken release just so that share holders won’t worry that they’re incompetent.. 

It's a Bank Holiday in the UK so chances are GW is shut down for the day - community articles were likely written last week and just uploaded to the site (or just ticked "make visible") by a tech in 4 mins. So anyone who has any authority is likely not in work until tomorrow; with many of the staff likely away and only heading back home end of today after a nice weekend away or doing stuff. 

 

I also like to think that GW today isn't as neurotic about leaks as they once were. Or rather they still take it realy seriously in the background, but up front they present a much calmer attitude, probable because once the "damage is done" its "DONE" and no amount of screaming online or ranting or kneejerk reactions will lessen any blow. In fact a slower, more considerate response or even jovial (like the video we got when the slaanesh fiend leaked) actually builds customer confidence and support. 

 

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5 hours ago, Zanzou said:

Can someone explain to me why the Arch-Revenant keeps getting a mentioned as a major alarielle buff when the majority of her damage (her mount) cannot be affected?

 

But it can be affected. You’re likely getting command ABILITIES confused with command TRAITS.

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I’m going to sit down and start throwing around some sample lists tonight, so for everybody's reference here are our battalions and their cost (including units) from least expensive to most expensive. 

Outcasts: 280 pts

  • 3 units of Spite Revenants 

Household: 460 pts

  • Branchwytch
  • Treelord
  • T-revs

Forest Folk: 520 pts

  • Branchwraith
  • Dryads x3

Lords of the Clan: 860 pts

  • Treelord ancient x 2
  • Treelord

Free Spirits: 1080 pts

  • Durthu
  • Kurnoth Hunters x 3
     

Looking (roughly) at these point values, I don't think it would be unreasonable to try and squeeze 2 battalions at 2k points. I’t not saying its mandatory, but some of these relics are just so good. (Extra CP’s don’t hurt either)  

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@Mirage8112, I'm going to reply to a couple of posts here. First of all, you've made me reconsider some things and I'll get to that later. But I think that you are overstating a few things.

Your proposed counter to Gristlegore is just not reliably workable on a couple of levels. First and foremost, if you kit out your Durthu to beat his AGKoT, he isn't going to just attack you headlong and sacrifice his most powerful piece. Durthu can teleport around, but a competent opponent isn't going to position in a way that allows you to teleport and charge his AGKoT, and he certainly isn't going to charge you. He is going to zip around with his 14" flying move killing every other model in your army. Your Durthu can only cover one objective, so it's not like he is forced to confront you... and his AGKoT will *far* outdamage your Durthu. 

Even if you imagine the best case scenario and your full health Durthu gets the charge against the AGKoT with both the Harvestboon command ability and Arch-Revenant command ability AND the AGKoT doesn't have his extra 5+ save or a defensive artefact AND you are close enough to a wyldwood:

The sword will do an average of 15.12 unsaved wounds and the talons will do an average of ~1.75 mortal wounds and 1 further unsaved wound. So that's around 18 unsaved wounds on average. It's enough to kill the AGKoT most of the time, a pretty significant % of the time you will fail, and with the chalice it can heal up from near lethal damage.

And that setup is Magical Christmas Land. There is no way you can reliably create that scenario. With the extra 5+ ward save you're only averaging 12 unsaved wounds, so the AGKoT will survive most of the time. If you don't catch him near a wyldwood, you're looking at another big reduction in damage.

TL;DR - a smart FEC player will not fall for the doppeldurthu trick and doesn't need to engage you at all, and even if you do you're only a small favorite to kill it in one go even assuming an ideal set of conditions that won't be true most of the time. 

______________

OK, all that said, I do think you have a reasonable point about the choice of turn. Sylvaneth seems well equipped to play in a way that can adapt well to either going first or second. Opponents may want to take the first turn to block you from adding extra wyldwoods, but you then get the protection against double turns and may still be able to hit them on the first turn if you want to. If they make you go first, you can alpha strike and/or deploy your forward wyldwoods in a better position for bunkering. The fact that most of the alpha options involve teleporting anywhere means that you can deploy in a way that works regardless of the turn order. 

______________

 

Finally, I think it might be worth exploring the different alpha strike options. In dreadwood anything can alpha, and Tree-Revenants now seem like a really good alpha strike option in any of the wargroves. They are still not very efficient on paper, but there are now some great tools to scale them. For all of us that have wanted to have a reason to field a unit of 30 tree-revs, I think we may now have one

Edited by swarmofseals
edit: removed the mysterious 41.33 from my post. Will explain in later post.
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So, now with a little time to think about it, some thoughts. Almost everything seems to have been boosted, even if only because the glades not effect everything, not just a few unit types. Additionally, we won't be tied to battalions, which means we won't be a 1-drop and will have to vie for that like everyone else, but also every list gets ~200 points more to play with. Thinking through the units: 

 

Big Winners: 

Spite Revenants: 4+/4+ to 3+/3+ is ~75% increase in damage. Coupled with a point drop, they are going to find a home. With only 1' reach, I don't think people will use 30 of them, but I think people will try out blocks of 10-20. 

Durthu: Points drop, same effectiveness. a ton of the command traits and artifacts look very useful on him. + 2 attacks on the charge might be better than ghyrstrike and fallback after striking as a command trait will make him annoying to deal with. 

Treelord Ancient: I think guaranteed woods will be critical. Gets away from the necessity for the acorn, which is excellent. I expect most lists will have 1 just for that utility. 

Treelord: Points drop is all he really needed. Comparable to kurnoth hunters. A bit more independent but less buffable. I think he still won't find a home though, since he doesn't seem to be as reliable or sturdy as just getting more hunters...

 

Slight Winners:

Kurnoth of all sorts: Benefit a lot from the command abilities with their already good stats.

Branchwraith/wych: No real changes, but getting the sure-thing verdant blessing is helpful. The glade changes and loss of lametri's really hurts them though, as their casting will be much much less reliable. None of the glades really buff casting. Still, I expect to see ~3 in every list.

Tree revenants: Their deepstrike is now much more reliable and gives them an additional role as charge blockers and mobile screens, but I think they will still mostly be backfield assassins. 

 

Slight losers (but still probably slightly stronger with the glades)

Dryads: Probably controversial, but I think the wholly-within will really hurt them in getting that -1 to hit. And they will have competition now with improved revenants. I expect 1-2 blocks of 20-30 instead of using them as the end-all-be-all of battleline. 

Allarielle: Still useful, just no longer an auto-include. Got stronger with the glades, but up in points makes her less of an autoinclude. I kinda like this though, as the queen herself probably shouldn't be in every skirmish. Still provides a ton of utility, although nowhere near the power of nagash.

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image.png.4aecf6398f3c6f81ee36e1f3b9937f92.png

Some very rough, early attempts at lists. (If I'm not allowed to post points please delete this Admins) 
What do people think? 

1st one is the main one I think as an alpha strike list.
TLA drops the second woods, Spiteswarm buffs the alpha strike units. Then Durthu, 6 Scythes and the Treelord teleport and get 6" charges. Winterleaf is likely the best option here

2nd one is some sort of heal, defensive list.... I dunno. 

3rd one trying some bravery debuff stuff. Durthu can have the Wraithstone. Cna probably swap one Branchwarith for 5 more Spite Revs? 
Winterleaf works well with Drycha too probably so that's a good option as well. A double attack with 20 revs or herself is solid. 

4th one, trying to get the more expensive alarielle to work. I think she's still good, but I dunno what the list is supposed to do any more. 
Can save a few points by going minimum dryad units I guess. Minimum battleline now is 3x5 Spite revs at 180 pts. 

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11 minutes ago, Frowny said:

 

Spite Revenants: 4+/4+ to 3+/3+ is ~75% increase in damage. Coupled with a point drop, they are going to find a home. With only 1' reach, I don't think people will use 30 of them, but I think people will try out blocks of 10-20. 

 

Spite Revs max out at 20 now anyway. 
But 200pts for 20 seems like a bargain. 

I like the idea of teleporting Durthu, a treelord, 20 spite revs (via dreadwood) and 6 hunters (via alligence ability). 
You do miss out on the extra pile in and 6 to hit ability of winterleaf though. 

I think for alpha strike you need that TLA to guarantee an extra wood in a better place. 
And the regular treelord got better as well as cheaper. The stomp is arguably better. The impale is much more useful and the spirit paths teleport is a bit better because you can set up wholly within 6" of the woods now not 3". 

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17 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

image.png.4aecf6398f3c6f81ee36e1f3b9937f92.png

Some very rough, early attempts at lists. (If I'm not allowed to post points please delete this Admins) 
What do people think? 

1st one is the main one I think as an alpha strike list.
TLA drops the second woods, Spiteswarm buffs the alpha strike units. Then Durthu, 6 Scythes and the Treelord teleport and get 6" charges. Winterleaf is likely the best option here

2nd one is some sort of heal, defensive list.... I dunno. 

3rd one trying some bravery debuff stuff. Durthu can have the Wraithstone. Cna probably swap one Branchwarith for 5 more Spite Revs? 
Winterleaf works well with Drycha too probably so that's a good option as well. A double attack with 20 revs or herself is solid. 

4th one, trying to get the more expensive alarielle to work. I think she's still good, but I dunno what the list is supposed to do any more. 
Can save a few points by going minimum dryad units I guess. Minimum battleline now is 3x5 Spite revs at 180 pts. 

I was toying with a similar list to the Lords of the Clan battalion but:

Heartwood Grove
 

TLA 300

TLA 300

Arch Rev 100

20 Spites 200

5 Tree revs 80

5 Tree revs 80 

Treelord 200

3 bow kurnoths 200

6 Sword kurnoths 400

Lords of the clans 60

Vengeful Skullroot 40

Edited by Rollcage

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4 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

@Mirage8112, I'm going to reply to a couple of posts here. First of all, you've made me reconsider some things and I'll get to that later. But I think that you are overstating a few things.

I always enjoy seeing your posts on here, because you bring the math: I like that. You’re the only poster I know who does theory hammer that way. It’s especially helpful in situations like this where all we really have is mathhammer to work things out vs actual plays testing . 
 

4 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Your proposed counter to Gristlegore is just not reliably workable on a couple of levels. First and foremost, if you kit out your Durthu to beat his AGKoT, he isn't going to just attack you headlong and sacrifice his most powerful piece. Durthu can teleport around, but a competent opponent isn't going to position in a way that allows you to teleport and charge his AGKoT, and he certainly isn't going to charge you. He is going to zip around with his 14" flying move killing every other model in your army. Your Durthu can only cover one objective, so it's not like he is forced to confront you... and his AGKoT will *far* outdamage your Durthu. 


I see everything your trying to say, but I think you’re missing the point here.  Yes, we’re assuming there is a situation where the general of Gristlegore army and the Durthu both have the opportunity to get into combat at full health. How he gets into combat is a question of gameplay and what the rest of the list brings, and how you engineer such a scenario is a question for another post. 
 

4 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Even if you imagine the best case scenario and your full health Durthu gets the charge against the AGKoT with both the Harvestboon command ability and Arch-Revenant command ability AND the AGKoT doesn't have his extra 5+ save or a defensive artefact AND you are close enough to a wyldwood:

The sword will do an average of 15.12 unsaved wounds and the talons will do an average of ~1.75 mortal wounds and 1 further unsaved wound. So that's around 18 unsaved wounds on average. It's enough to kill the AGKoT most of the time, a pretty significant % of the time you will fail, and with the chalice it can heal up from near lethal damage.

And that setup is Magical Christmas Land. There is no way you can reliably create that scenario. With the extra 5+ ward save you're only averaging 12 unsaved wounds, so the AGKoT will survive most of the time. If you don't catch him near a wyldwood, you're looking at another big reduction in damage.


I’m not sure about your math. With a best case-scenario (as you say), my math has Durthu throwing out 7 attacks. 3 base + 2 for being within 8” of a Wyldwood (I do not think it’s unreasonable to assume he can be within 8” of a wood. Especially if we are in fact able to blanket our side of the board with WW at least 1” from an objective that is being fought over), +1 for charging, +1 for Arch rev’s command ability. He’s also RR 1’s from Vibrant Surge. With spiteswarm out, Durthu has a 8” move, or can teleport within 9”. He only needs a 6” charge which can be rerolled with a CP. That’s pretty damn reasonable.  

Between those sword attacks, 6 verdant blast attacks (which will give him 1-2 extra wounds), and 3 impaling talon attacks (which benefit from both the arch rev ability and the +1 attack on a charge ability giving him another wound) my math has him doing somewhere around 22 wounds before the 5+ save (if it’s up). I can show you the math if you like. That 5+ drops that damage to just under 15. Its close, but should on average be enough to wipe him out in 1 turn. 

But lets say just four the sake of argument, you fluff a couple of attacks or you aren’t within 8” of a WW. Then my math has his damage output dropping to 16 wounds before the 5+ and 11 wounds after. Whatever the case, let’s say he’s grievously wounded but still fighting. Durthu gets a free 6” move immediately after he attacks, before the Terrorgeist can attack. The Terrorgheist cannot pile in and attack him, because he’s no longer within 3” of him and not in combat. 

What happens next depends a lot on what the board looks like, and who gets next turn. But if we’re assuming he can’t bring any other models to bear with a 3” reach (either because they’re dead, locked in combat from the previous turn, or don’t have a 3” reach). He could scream at Durthu, maybe peel 1-3 wounds off him (since he’ll be bravery 10)  and drop his sword down a tier, he could charge but Durthu still gets to attack first and the arch rev can still get his command ability off to give Durthu 4 attacks. In such case Durthu still stands a good chance of killing him before he can do anything about it. Strike first doesn’t mean much if you can’t select Durthu as a target. 
 

4 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

TL;DR - a smart FEC player will not fall for the doppeldurthu trick and doesn't need to engage you at all, and even if you do you're only a small favorite to kill it in one go even assuming an ideal set of conditions that won't be true most of the time. 

   
Here I think we disagree.

While I agree that a smart FEC player will figure out real quick how deadly that Durthu is; especially when it wipes a Terrorgeist off the table in a single turn of combat, even when he’s supposed to have the first activation. At some point he’ll be forced to try and do something about it. These FEC lists don't really have the bodies to afford losing a Terrorgheist per turn.  Sure he’ll spend a turn killing stuff on the other side of the board. Then in our turn, Durthu heals up to full wounds, charges, and wipes out another Terrorgiest. At that point, what’s he going to do about it? Spend the whole game wiping out chaff on the other side of the board not using the most killy thing in his army to do something about the thing thats wiping him off the board? 

We’re also not even considering how easy it is for our army to throw out mortal wounds and healing from our new endless spells now.  It’s very reasonable to assume that in our own turn, we can peel 2-3 wounds off that monster, bring Durthu in through teleport and have him at full health, fully within a WW, striking first and wiping him off the board before he can do much about it.  

As I said earlier, the rest of the army will be pretty key in engineering a scenario where this face-off happens.  What would that look like?

Dryads vs Terrorgheists is just feeling him points/bodies and the answer is no dryads and just chaff chaff chaff.

Our chaff is crazy cheap now, and this Durthu set up has an entry cost of 580 points (Durthu + our cheapest battalion) that comes with 3 units of spites who make perfect bubble wrap and give you battleline.  I’m even tempted to throw 2 x 3 Hunters with bows in the woods, surrounded by chaff just to bait the Terrorgheists in to do something about it or risk being picked apart at a 30” range (RR 1’s from the battalion helps with that 4+ to hit). That’s 980 points. For another 580, you can get a spellcaster with regrowth and the gem to auto-cast for support, another Treelord to anchor the line and possibly force those baited Terrortgiests to strike last (making those chaff spites into terrifying blenders) and a unit of T-revs to snatch objectives.  Put your positions down right and they wont be able to retreat and help elsewhere (household battalion).  That’s 1560. plenty of room for 2 endless spells (spiteswarm to help with teleport charging, and the worm for MW and healing, a wraith (with throne of vines) to help get them out and summon dryads, for 160 pts. You now have 2 casters to rouse the wood and unbind, and endless spells that do double duty within MW output and healing, and source to bring extra bodies on the board to either act as chaff or counter units summoned to your backfield.   

Add the mandatory arch-revenant that’s another 100 so 1820pts. Plenty of room for more chaff to help hold objectives, be speed bumps or generally be annoying objective grabbers. What difference does a million attacks that do MW’s make if all he can do are kill are single units of 5 at a time? 

####
Edit: a kind player just informed he this item has been errata’d, and must be activated at the start of the combat phase. That clearly puts a kink in how I was thinking of using this strategy, and bears reconsideration. I’m still convinced in our own turn Durthu would have the numbers on his side, but at one use only you’d only get one shot, a bad roll and it would be lights out.  
###  
 

4 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

OK, all that said, I do think you have a reasonable point about the choice of turn. Sylvaneth seems well equipped to play in a way that can adapt well to either going first or second. Opponents may want to take the first turn to block you from adding extra wyldwoods, but you then get the protection against double turns and may still be able to hit them on the first turn if you want to. If they make you go first, you can alpha strike and/or deploy your forward wyldwoods in a better position for bunkering. The fact that most of the alpha options involve teleporting anywhere means that you can deploy in a way that works regardless of the turn order. 



My thought was if the opponent takes first turn, the best he can do (at most) is come up the middle of the board (if he’s pushed up to his front line and runs) and if your free wood is near the center, it’s likely he’ll opt to go around since the roll happens now whether he charged or not. You can still drop a metric fk-ton of woods in your first turn regardless, and when you do, you might be well-able to hit him with a first turn charge. My guess is he’ll play back, in which case you just push your wood deeper more mid-line.

If you get the first turn then you just put your woods wherever you like, set up your defensive lines and dare him to do something about it.    
 

 

4 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Finally, I think it might be worth exploring the different alpha strike options. In dreadwood anything can alpha, and Tree-Revenants now seem like a really good alpha strike option in any of the wargroves. They are still not very efficient on paper, but there are now some great tools to scale them. For all of us that have wanted to have a reason to field a unit of 30 tree-revs, I think we may now have one.


I’m inclined to agree with you. Getting the +3 to charge endless out and maybe even cogs in the same turn is a 5+ to move and charge. That’s a massive threat range and only a 4” charge if you teleport 9” away. I don't know about 30 T-revs only because of their range but 20 backed by an arch rev and  showing up in the backfield is bad business. Couple that with a pair of teleporting Treelords (for a double shot at making the target strike last) all combo charging something sounds like absolute havoc. 

What do you see a list making use of this look like? 

Edited by Mirage8112
Updated info re: FAQ

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31 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:


What happens next depends a lot on what the board looks like, and who gets next turn. But if we’re assuming he can’t bring any other models to bear with a 3” reach (either because they’re dead, locked in combat from the previous turn, or don’t have a 3” reach). He could scream at Durthu, maybe peel 1-3 wounds off him (since he’ll be bravery 10)  and drop his sword down a tier, he could charge but Durthu still gets to attack first and the arch rev can still get his command ability off to give Durthu 4 attacks. In such case Durthu still stands a good chance of killing him before he can do anything about it. Strike first doesn’t mean much if you can’t select Durthu as a target. 
 

  

If the Gristlegore Player charges with this AGKoT you won´t be able to activate Doppelgangers Cloak before he attacks, since both effects takes place at start of combat and its his turn, meaning he gets to choose the order.

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Do rules regarding setting up a Wyldwood (1" away from opponent's territory) refer only to the FIRST FREE Wyldwood that we put before the battle or to all next WW as well (set up by verdant blessing, acorn,...)? 

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20 minutes ago, Rangeltoft said:

If the Gristlegore Player charges with this AGKoT you won´t be able to activate Doppelgangers Cloak before he attacks, since both effects takes place at start of combat and its his turn, meaning he gets to choose the order.

Doppelganger cloak doesn’t require an activation. It says the bearer “cannot be chosen as a target for melee attacks” unless he’s already attacked. It’s doesn't matter when the AGKoT attacks, he can’t target Durthu until Durthu attacks first.

Effectively he is required to “pass” (not something you see very often) and then regular attack activations start. In his turn, he’d have to activate another unit, in yours, you get to activate a unit i.e. Durthu and then move away 6” after attacking. 

He can still make a pile-in move after Durthu attacks and moves 6”, which puts him in range of the fanged-maw attack in his own turn (but not in yours, since only units who charge get a free pile-in if there are no enemies around) unless you can engineer a unit to be closer to him than to Durthu OR he wasn’t touching your base when he charged (i.e if you had a unit of T-revs in front screening him, hint hint). The funny thing is, in this case, he’s be forced to attack the revenants and ignore Durthu, since you can’t pass and refuse to activate a unit that is able to attack. 

Edited by Mirage8112

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1 minute ago, Mirage8112 said:

Doppelganger cloak doesn’t require an activation. It says the bearer “cannot be chosen as a target for melee attacks” unless he’s already attacked. It’s doesn't matter when the AGKoT attacks, he can’t target Durthu until Durthu attacks first.

Effectively he is required to “pass” (not something you see very often) and then regular attack activations start. In his turn, he’d have to activate another unit, in yours, you get to activate a unit i.e. Durthu and then move away 6” after attacking. 

He can still make a pile-in move which puts him in range of the fanged-maw attack in his own turn (but not in yours, since he wouldn’t have charged) unless you can engineer a unit to be closer to him than to Durthu OR he wasn’t touching your base when he charged (i.e if you had a unit of T-revs in front screening him, hint hint). 

Page 84 – Artefacts of Power, Relics of Ulgu, Doppelganger CloakChange the rules text to: ‘Once per battle, at the start of the combat phase, you can say that the bearer will put on the cloak. If you do so, the bearer cannot be chosen as the target of attacks made with melee weapons unless the bearer has made any attacks earlier in that phase.

 

The Gristlegore Player still gets to go first in his turn, since according to the Malign Sorcery Errata, doppleganger cloak is not automatic and happens in the start of the combat phase, same as the gristlegore strike first.

Would love to be proven wrong here tbh.

/cheers Rangeltoft

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Hey ya'll, little Undead sproutling here coming from Nighthaunt to Sylvaneth. Following a Start Collecting, Looncurse, and a cheap nabbing of Drycha and some Tree Revenants, I've started growing my own little forest of hate. Now, I'm wondering how should I bring it up to 2000 points?

Right now, I have

Drycha

Durthu

Branchwych

Arch-Revenant

3 Kurnoths with Scythes

16 Dryads

10 Tree Revenants

5 Spite revenants

 

I'm debating on whether I should buy another Start Collecting, or just pick up another box of Dryads.

Edited by Undeadly

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8 minutes ago, Rangeltoft said:

Page 84 – Artefacts of Power, Relics of Ulgu, Doppelganger CloakChange the rules text to: ‘Once per battle, at the start of the combat phase, you can say that the bearer will put on the cloak. If you do so, the bearer cannot be chosen as the target of attacks made with melee weapons unless the bearer has made any attacks earlier in that phase.

 

The Gristlegore Player still gets to go first in his turn, since according to the Malign Sorcery Errata, doppleganger cloak is not automatic and happens in the start of the combat phase, same as the gristlegore strike first.

Would love to be proven wrong here tbh.

/cheers Rangeltoft

Ugh. Errated. I was working from an old copy of the book.  Talk about an amazing item being made totally garbage by an errata.

Whelp. That clearly wont work then. Lol. 

It would still work in your own turn (I think),  it would definitely take some engineering, but the list I provided before has enough chaff (I think) to set-up the positioning to make it go off in your turn. You would very much be putting all your eggs in one basket in that case though...

Edited by Mirage8112

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24 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

Ugh. Errated. I was working from an old copy of the book.  Talk about an amazing item being made totally garbage by an errata.

Whelp. That clearly wont work then. Lol. 

It would still work in your own turn (I think),  it would definitely take some engineering, but the list I provided before has enough chaff (I think) to set-up the positioning to make it go off in your turn. You would very much be putting all your eggs in one basket in that case though...

Yeah Doppelgänger was my initial go-to vs GKoT. It does still work in your own turn, but you can no longer cause them to "skip" their activation window entirely. They errata'ed that as well. Let's say you activate Doppelgänger, attack, and the GKoT remains alive. It can then still attack.

Of course, in your scenario above, maybe your general has gotten 6" out of dodge and the situation doesn't enable the GKoT to reach the general with its 6" threat (3" pile in and 3" Fanged Maw).

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Just now, scrubyandwells said:

Yeah Doppelgänger was my initial go-to vs GKoT. It does still work in your own turn, but you can no longer cause them to "skip" their activation window entirely. They errata'ed that as well. Let's say you activate Doppelgänger, attack, and the GKoT remains alive. It can then still attack.

Of course, in your scenario above, maybe your general has gotten 6" out of dodge and the situation doesn't enable the GKoT to reach the general with its 6" threat (3" pile in and 3" Fanged Maw).

Oh, and hi @Mirage8112 + @swarmofseals. I see we're still here for our regular reunion with the new shiny. 🙂

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I haven't cooked up many new lists yet, but I think you can bring Alarielle, Durthu, Drycha, 3 units of Spite-Revenants, Outcast Battalion, and 6 Scythe Kurnoth for 2k exactly. I'd likely drop either Durthu or Drycha for an Arch-Revenant, a Branchie of some description, and some endless spells, but that increases your drops even more. With that option you could probably even finagle another battalion for even fewer drops. I mean, you could even just use a Treelord and an Arch-Revenant, too! Good way to get another monster in there, and they're actually pretty decent anyway!

I'm not totally convinced that going first is going to be totally necessary, since many armies actually don't want to go first, but there are a lot of armies that move fast enough that not going first will make it hard to put trees down. Given how important the trees have been for the army's overall strategy, it seems like a huge blow, since we really want the teleporting options and the cover. The Places of Power rules is going to be pretty solid for securing cover, and also selecting a terrain piece  on an objective that your units can't be shifted from without being totally wiped off the map.

With that said, the new Awakened Wildwood models appear to have have rather small footprints, and you have to put them more than 1" away from things, you they might be easier to fit in now than they were before, especially since you've got some leeway about what a 'ring' can be shaped like (in my opinion at least; I rather doubt they will be required to create perfect circles), which will make it easier to fit them around existing terrain and whatever units are there.

Also, the Honest Wargamer review is like two and a half hours of doom and gloom. I understand that it's coming from the perspective of serious tournament play, but if anyone was expecting the new book to deliver cheese on the level of Skaven or FEC, they were going to be disappointed no matter what. We'll see in under a month how they adjust the points costs of certain things in the new GHB, which will likely throttle some of the abusive lists currently possible back. If anything, I'm actually happy our new book isn't shining out with imbalances, it means it won't get slapped up by the impending balance review.

Anyway we've had like two days to think about the rules so far, and no one's actually played with it yet - certainly not with the new Wyldwood models. There's a lot that simply hasn't been figured out yet.

Edited by overtninja
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1 hour ago, Undeadly said:

Hey ya'll, little Undead sproutling here coming from Nighthaunt to Sylvaneth. Following a Start Collecting, Looncurse, and a cheap nabbing of Drycha and some Tree Revenants, I've started growing my own little forest of hate. Now, I'm wondering how should I bring it up to 2000 points?

Right now, I have

Drycha

Durthu

Branchwych

Arch-Revenant

3 Kurnoths with Scythes

16 Dryads

10 Tree Revenants

5 Spite revenants

 

I'm debating on whether I should buy another Start Collecting, or just pick up another box of Dryads.

Buy another start collecting, since you will want a Tree lord ancient (he seems quite a solid option with the new battletome) and you can convert your branchwych to a branchwraith, who is a must.

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54 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

Yeah Doppelgänger was my initial go-to vs GKoT. It does still work in your own turn, but you can no longer cause them to "skip" their activation window entirely. They errata'ed that as well. Let's say you activate Doppelgänger, attack, and the GKoT remains alive. It can then still attack.

Of course, in your scenario above, maybe your general has gotten 6" out of dodge and the situation doesn't enable the GKoT to reach the general with its 6" threat (3" pile in and 3" Fanged Maw).

He can only pile in if he’s charged in that turn. So in your turn, you’d be safe from the pile in.

I’m going to sit back and think on this a bit. This obviously isn’t the only problem out there, but right now it’s the main one.The unbeaten list in Best Coast Pairings was FEC: Gristlegore, GKoT with Gryph feather, arch regent and Terrorgiests x4 + quicksilver swords. That’s a lot of nasty. 

I’m going to sit back and think and paper hammer this out a bit with the new book info. It’s very possible that the GHB in July might make some adjustments to FEC because they’re so dominate in the meta right now. And if normal releases schedule is to happen this week, our book will drop 2 weeks before-ish. 

We’ll have to see how things shape up. It will either be like Disc of TZ that was super op and got hit hard and errated/repointed out of existence, or Gw will just shrug and say “figure it out”.

 

Edited by Mirage8112
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@scrubyandwells Actually, you are still protected from GKoTG, since you can only retreat as durthu if you charge, meaning hitting and retreating 6 - with or without the cloack - but the TG cant pile in to reach him since he didnt charged ( or the Durthu then cant flee :D ) so it protect him , unless he has other units he is engaged with and then, all of this has no point :)

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so with Looncurse, it seems ive started a Sylvaneth army (i wanted the box for the Squigs)
with that being said, im not entirely sure where to go from here (im aware of the new battletome, but lets go off the current rules for the sake of keeping it simple)

the units i prefer the models: Durthu, Treelord, Treelord Anicent, Alarelle, Kurnoth Hunters, Tree Revenants, Spite Revenants, Arch Revenant

im more interested in themes and just having fun, not really concerned with being competitve, however it is worth mentioning that i occuasionally play against competitve lists. i like to win but its not a major point.
with that being said, can Sylvaneth be good without Dryads or the small heroes?

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Is there really no way whatsoever to use an order wizard or order unit with a sylvaneth army now, or am I mistaken??  That would be very depressing if they randomly removed that.  Toying with quirky mages was a big bit of fun to me.

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