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AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion


Chris Tomlin
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37 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

. I still think throne of vines is well worth the price of investment

On a TLA or Alarielle or another caster? But not for casting the verdurous spell since - now I think of it - even with more spells you won't know 2 spells of the lore.

 

33 minutes ago, IRifter said:

The spell that summons 10 dryads is not aprt of the deepwood lore spells. You cant use the vesperal gem t auto summon 10 dryads every turn

Nor endless spells. So basicly only the single spell you pick on the caster.

 

37 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

Yes that’s initiative order. The two abilities cancel out and the player whose turn it is activates a unit as per normal

I though they meant the one whose turn it is pick the order the abilities fire. So all would strike before normals.. but you could (and would) pick all your first strikers to hit first.

 

37 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

1640pts easily lets you squeeze 20 dryads and 2 t-revs  (which you should be taking anyway for love of Pete)  Alarielle can still bring on 20 drayds, or 3 hunters if you need a little extra punch. and we still have the wraith to bring dryads on through WW.  

Not to be annoying (sry, know you've only worked with the data a few hours max) but there is no wraith in that list if you add 20 dryads and 10 TRevs.  And none of the endless spells (hive) either. Though 2 spites and 1 trev would give room for the hive or cogs and wraith I think. Will probably something I try I'll admit but the lack of bodies even if you summon 20 dryads and some more with the wraith if those succeed might make objectives hard to get.

Btw it's not been mentioned the new forest models might be a nerf too in a way: min 3 bases and it seems the area they cover is larger than an old single Base and rounder. Often I've only been able to place single Base old forests.. Will need bigger spaces now and away from objectives (only for the first?) .. And my group likes packed tables. . Placement might become a bigger issue.

Edited by Aezeal
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47 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

On a TLA or Alarielle or another caster? But not for casting the verdurous spell since - now I think of it - even with more spells you won't know 2 spells of the lore.

Depends on your build. I was think it would be great on a caster like Alarille, not for verdurous harmony mind you, but more for getting metamorphosis or an endless spell off with some unbind protection. 

If you wanted to run an old-style gnarlroot list, I would take the “knows an extra spell” command trait, spirit song stave (to cast an extra spell) throne of vines and regrowth.  And then put the auto-cast item on another TLA with verdurous harmony to help out with keeping him alive. That’s likely 3 spells going off which means 3 rolls on the WW craziness. I do think its work taking TL and TLAS in 2’s now. That stomp is brutal and will make a big difference in combat if you can reliably get it off. 
 

58 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

I though they meant the one whose turn it is pick the order the abilities fire. So all would strike before normals.. but you could (and would) pick all your first strikers to hit first.


Well yes, in his turn. Which would basically be the same thing as initiative order, the main protect here is that ASF still fires in your turn, but since you pick the order abilities fire in your turn you have a chance to strip that off of him.. In your turn, you stomp, he now strikes last (there is some question wether it replaces the roll, or just cancels it out. He’d be pissed if he went from attacking first to striking normally, but doubly pissed if he went to attacking last.

Another sneaky as fk idea would be to run lords and give one of the TLA’s the ragged cloak, but end your charge with that TLA in B2b. That way he can’t actually attack the bearer and cant pile in closer until you get a chance to try for stomp. 

oooo. I like that. That’s filthy. 

 

1 hour ago, Aezeal said:

Not to be annoying (sry, know you've only worked with the data a few hours max) but there is no wraith in that list if you add 20 dryads and 10 TRevs.  And none of the endless spells (hive) either. Though 2 spites and 1 trev would give room for the hive or cogs and wraith I think. Will probably something I try I'll admit but the lack of bodies even if you summon 20 dryads and some more with the wraith if those succeed might make objectives hard to get.


Sorry I wasn’t very clear. I wasn’t saying you’d take 20 drayds and a wraith, it was a “you could take this” or “you can take that”.

1 hour ago, Aezeal said:

Btw it's not been mentioned the new forest models might be a nerf too in a way: min 3 bases and it seems the area they cover is larger than an old single Base and rounder. Often I've only been able to place single Base old forests.. Will need bigger spaces now and away from objectives (only for the first?) .. And my group likes packed tables. . Placement might become a bigger issue.


3 of the new woods surrounds 1 old wood like a glove. It’s almost exactly the same footprint (maybe 1/2 bigger on all sides?)
 

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43 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

Well yes, in his turn. Which would basically be the same thing as initiative order, the main protect here is that ASF still fires in your turn, but since you pick the order abilities fire in your turn you have a chance to strip that off of him.. In your turn, you stomp, he now strikes last (there is some question wether it replaces the roll, or just cancels it out. He’d be pissed if he went from attacking first to striking normally, but doubly pissed if he went to attacking last.

It does depend on the wording.  In the new Slaanesh book, their  "fight at end" ability states that if applied to a unit that has "strike first" then they cancel each other out and thus the unit would fight in the normal part of the combat phase.  Itchy Nuisance (Gitz spell), on the other hand, does not, so would make a "fight first" unit fight last. 

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So, I’m curious. How does the alpha strike game work out now? Without the old Dreadwood, all our teleports seem to take place after movement? So we now have to pull them all off with a 9” charge. Sure, we have a bunch of ways to buff charges, but do we feel we can reliably get them all off and in place in time to make that reliable? Because I kinda fell in love with the idea of dropping a Durthu in the enemy’s face and just slamming the giant tree into them, but I’m not sure if it’s reliable enough to pull off to build around anymore. Although I suppose there are other, equally fun tricks for my murder tree. 

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3 minutes ago, Fyrm said:

So, I’m curious. How does the alpha strike game work out now? Without the old Dreadwood, all our teleports seem to take place after movement? So we now have to pull them all off with a 9” charge. Sure, we have a bunch of ways to buff charges, but do we feel we can reliably get them all off and in place in time to make that reliable? Because I kinda fell in love with the idea of dropping a Durthu in the enemy’s face and just slamming the giant tree into them, but I’m not sure if it’s reliable enough to pull off to build around anymore. Although I suppose there are other, equally fun tricks for my murder tree. 

It's actually more reliable than ever.  You can max out at a +9" to charge on Durthu.  If that's not reliable I don't know what is.

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1 minute ago, Neffelo said:

I still don't get T. revs being priced at 80 points for five, I was sure they were going to get a point drop or major rules change. 

I was thinking the same thing. Especially since the spite revs got a point decrase and a better attack profile beiing 3+ 3+ isntead of 4+ 4+. Seems like spites are just straight up better efficiency wise

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Fair, but can you actually get that much going after the teleport, or just in a perfect bubble? And how much do you give up to pull it off? I suppose I’m just worrying a bit, like I tend to do, but it looks like it might be tricky to line it all up, and also have the tools to really utilize that alpha strike afterwords. 

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21 minutes ago, Fyrm said:

Fair, but can you actually get that much going after the teleport, or just in a perfect bubble? And how much do you give up to pull it off? I suppose I’m just worrying a bit, like I tend to do, but it looks like it might be tricky to line it all up, and also have the tools to really utilize that alpha strike afterwords. 

Well the endless spell bubble one (which gives you +3" to charge) is done in the hero phase. So you can buff as much as you can fit wholly within 8".
THEN teleport them in various ways (allegiance ability, treelord/durthu ability, waypipes, etc), then charge them later. 
So that alone, is pretty easy to set up. The teleports are automatic and always work. The buff spell just requires casting, and the range is decent so you can probably set up a caster outside of unbind range. 
Having units within 8" is purely up to your own deployment. 

So the only unknown or not fully controllable aspect is where  your wildwoods end up and where that alpha strike is going to happen. The free wood you get to place at the start is probably going to be of limited use since you can't place it near objectives, enemy territory or other terrain. But you can summon another one with the spell and place that wholly within 24" which makes that placement a bit more useful.  

Without any extra buffs, this results in multiple units getting a teleport and a 6" charge, which is fairly reliable.
Warsinger Trait gives another 2" to all units wholly within 12", so again, Durthu, Treelord and a big unit of hunters teleporting and making a (now 4") charge is quite feasible 

Edited by Inquisitorsz
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3 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

Well the endless spell bubble one (which gives you +3" to charge) is done in the hero phase. So you can buff as much as you can fit wholly within 8".
THEN teleport them in various ways (allegiance ability, treelord/durthu ability, waypipes, etc), then charge them later. 
So that alone, is pretty easy to set up. The teleports are automatic and always work. The buff spell just requires casting, and the range is decent so you can probably set up a caster outside of unbind range. 
Having units within 8" is purely up to your own deployment. 

So the only unknown or not fully controllable aspect is where  your wildwoods end up and where that alpha strike is going to happen. The free wood you get to place at the start is probably going to be of limited use since you can't place it near objectives, enemy territory or other terrain. But you can summon another one with the spell and place that wholly within 24" which makes that placement a bit more useful.  

I was wondering if  the verdant blessing spell (summons a wyldwood)is a part of the deepwood lore or not? 

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1 minute ago, Inquisitorsz said:

Well the endless spell bubble one (which gives you +3" to charge) is done in the hero phase. So you can buff as much as you can fit wholly within 8".
THEN teleport them in various ways (allegiance ability, treelord/durthu ability, waypipes, etc), then charge them later. 
So that alone, is pretty easy to set up. The teleports are automatic and always work. The buff spell just requires casting, and the range is decent so you can probably set up a caster outside of unbind range. 
Having units within 8" is purely up to your own deployment. 

So the only unknown or not fully controllable aspect is where  your wildwoods end up and where that alpha strike is going to happen. The free wood you get to place at the start is probably going to be of limited use since you can't place it near objectives, enemy territory or other terrain. But you can summon another one with the spell and place that wholly within 24" which makes that placement a bit more useful.  

Fair. I had not noticed the spell to summon more trees, completely missed it in fact. Hmmmmm. Alright, so it is looking like I’d want a TLA to summon the second set of trees [spell for better range, but base line ability for the garauntee], and then have them also summon the hive for a +3” to the charge. Maybe also Cogs for another +2”? If I forgo a wargrove, I can give the Durthu another +2 in his command trait, for a total of +7” to the charge. So autopassable, or gamble 2” and throw it into a wargrove. Not quite as elegant, but still certainly doable!

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1 minute ago, IRifter said:

I was wondering if  the verdant blessing spell (summons a wyldwood)is a part of the deepwood lore or not? 

A quick look makes it seem like no? It is not listed on the Deepwood lore table, like the base line spells for our wizards. So I’d guess no, sadly no free trees with that gem. 

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What's your opinion on Spite Revs vs. Tree Revs right now? I still got my looncurse revs on sprues waitng to be built.

Tree Revs are basically the same unit with no changes (unless im missing soemthing) while spite revs got a point decrase AND a buff to their attack profile. Now that there is no need to take 3 spite revs to get dreadwood (although spite revenants are stiill buffed more than other units in that glade) it seems to me especially if you support the spiite revs well they are jsut staright up superior. You can easily get a 20 model unit (61 attacks wiiith 3+ 3+) and reroll hiits and wounds of 1. Would you guys take Tree revs or spite revs? Or do you think Dryads are superior? 
 

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4 minutes ago, Fyrm said:

Fair. I had not noticed the spell to summon more trees, completely missed it in fact. Hmmmmm. Alright, so it is looking like I’d want a TLA to summon the second set of trees [spell for better range, but base line ability for the garauntee], and then have them also summon the hive for a +3” to the charge. Maybe also Cogs for another +2”? If I forgo a wargrove, I can give the Durthu another +2 in his command trait, for a total of +7” to the charge. So autopassable, or gamble 2” and throw it into a wargrove. Not quite as elegant, but still certainly doable!

Yeah if you wanna go crazy, you could get:
Endless spell (+3)
Cogs (+2)
Command Trait (+2)
+7  is nothing to sneeze at. Guarantees a charge for multiple units (though I think you'd often just use Durthu + big scythe unit). 

But I'd probably take a wargroove and stick with +5 or +3.
Even +5.... that means you're going to need 3 spell casters (or Alarielle I guess). 
Still the base +3 is still reliable enough, especially with a command point reroll. 

The winterleaf or harvestboon grooves are just too good, especially for alpha strike. 
Winterleaf gives you the extra pile in/attack, and extra hits on 6s.
Harvestboon gives you reroll 1s to hit on the charge, and the ability for a charging Durthu to back out of combat after attacking and stay safe (and +1 attack). 
 

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5 minutes ago, IRifter said:

What's your opinion on Spite Revs vs. Tree Revs right now? I still got my looncurse revs on sprues waitng to be built.

Tree Revs are basically the same unit with no changes (unless im missing soemthing) while spite revs got a point decrase AND a buff to their attack profile. Now that there is no need to take 3 spite revs to get dreadwood (although spite revenants are stiill buffed more than other units in that glade) it seems to me especially if you support the spiite revs well they are jsut staright up superior. You can easily get a 20 model unit (61 attacks wiiith 3+ 3+) and reroll hiits and wounds of 1. Would you guys take Tree revs or spite revs? Or do you think Dryads are superior? 
 

I think dryads are still the better choice, especially for larger units and objective holding. They are tougher, have  a larger reach and move faster.
But they do a bit less damage.

Tree revs seem to be good only for their teleport. They don't rely on the wildwoods anymore so that's nice but their attacks and cost still suck. 

Spites are certainly worth taking now due to the high attacks and great hit/wound. Outcasts battalion is not a bad way to get your 3 battleline and another artifact/CP.
I don't think I'd invest much into them though (maybe units of 10 as chaff?). Certainly great with the dreadwood and Drycha rerolls but the dreadwood list is probably a bit 1 dimentional, and you still get little value out of all the special rules against bravery 10 or battleshock immune stuff. I like Drycha but people seem to think she's a bit over costed now.  She could be with the winterleaf ability... I'm not sure how that interacts with her 6=mortal wound ability though. 

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1 minute ago, Inquisitorsz said:

I think dryads are still the better choice, especially for larger units and objective holding. They are tougher, have  a larger reach and move faster.
But they do a bit less damage.

Tree revs seem to be good only for their teleport. They don't rely on the wildwoods anymore so that's nice but their attacks and cost still suck. 

Spites are certainly worth taking now due to the high attacks and great hit/wound. Outcasts battalion is not a bad way to get your 3 battleline and another artifact/CP.
I don't think I'd invest much into them though (maybe units of 10 as chaff?). Certainly great with the dreadwood and Drycha rerolls but the dreadwood list is probably a bit 1 dimentional, and you still get little value out of all the special rules against bravery 10 or battleshock immune stuff. I like Drycha but people seem to think she's a bit over costed now.  She could be with the winterleaf ability... I'm not sure how that interacts with her 6=mortal wound ability though. 

I thought about that interaction with winterleaf and drycha too. IMO there are only 2 ways this would work :

A: you get 1 mortal wound on a 6 and roll another wound roll for the extra attack
B: you get 2 mortals wounds for each 6

While B sounds much better i guess A is more likely but we cant be sure untiil its FAQ'd

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6 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

Yeah if you wanna go crazy, you could get:
Endless spell (+3)
Cogs (+2)
Command Trait (+2)
+7  is nothing to sneeze at. Guarantees a charge for multiple units (though I think you'd often just use Durthu + big scythe unit). 

But I'd probably take a wargroove and stick with +5 or +3.
Even +5.... that means you're going to need 3 spell casters (or Alarielle I guess). 
Still the base +3 is still reliable enough, especially with a command point reroll. 

The winterleaf or harvestboon grooves are just too good, especially for alpha strike. 
Winterleaf gives you the extra pile in/attack, and extra hits on 6s.
Harvestboon gives you reroll 1s to hit on the charge, and the ability for a charging Durthu to back out of combat after attacking and stay safe (and +1 attack). 
 

Ya, this is ultimately where I have been leaning towards. Specifically, the Harvestboon one. Get Durthu in, smack them and then run off to your woods. Now they have to either charge you back, which means they’ll potentially be taking those mortal wounds [not super likely, but possible], or wait for him to charge back in and repeat the game. Feels like it’d be fun! Now just gotta figure out how to fit it all together, and start figuring out the lore for said army...

 

also, why 3 casters? You could pull it off with just the TLA and a second caster, if you’re willing to go with the 18” tree drop. Most battle plans give you 24” space between you and enemies [most seem to be that you can’t deploy within 12” of enemy territory, so two sets of 12” would be 24”]? So that gets you easily within the range of the teleports anyways. And you don’t have to worry about it being dispelled. Or am I missing a piece? I suppose having 3 small casters would be cheaper than a TLA and a second small caster though. 

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28 minutes ago, Fyrm said:

Ya, this is ultimately where I have been leaning towards. Specifically, the Harvestboon one. Get Durthu in, smack them and then run off to your woods. Now they have to either charge you back, which means they’ll potentially be taking those mortal wounds [not super likely, but possible], or wait for him to charge back in and repeat the game. Feels like it’d be fun! Now just gotta figure out how to fit it all together, and start figuring out the lore for said army...

 

also, why 3 casters? You could pull it off with just the TLA and a second caster, if you’re willing to go with the 18” tree drop. Most battle plans give you 24” space between you and enemies [most seem to be that you can’t deploy within 12” of enemy territory, so two sets of 12” would be 24”]? So that gets you easily within the range of the teleports anyways. And you don’t have to worry about it being dispelled. Or am I missing a piece? I suppose having 3 small casters would be cheaper than a TLA and a second small caster though. 

Well if you want the swarm spell, cogs, and the second wildwood placement, then you need 3 spells. (and you're paying 110pts for those spells on top of the caster costs). Oh yeah the TLA helps. But that's also expensive and the 18" range isn't that much when it needs to be placed wholly within....
Really depends what the rest of your list looks like with that alpha strike likely taking up close to 740pts. You're looking at 1140 with the TLA without another treelord and without any battleine yet. (i'm assuming alpha strike of Durthu and 6 scythe hunters) 

If you can get a lucky wildwood placement somewhere in the middle of the table, then that's great. But I think that first wildwood is likely going to end up somewhere on your 1/3rd of the table. It can't be within 1" or enemy territory, other terrain or within 6" of an objective..... and it's about 8" in diameter I think so takes up quite a lot of space.
If you can find a 9" circle on your half of the table that's not near an objective, then that's great. I doubt it though. 
Depends a bit on the scenario and objective positions I guess. Something like scorched earth with a bit of empty space in the middle would be great.

Having the extra spell placement just makes it a little bit easier coz that wildwood can end up in the opponent's territory and within 1" of objectives, terrain, models. But it's still a pretty huge footprint to place. 

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44 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

Spites are certainly worth taking now due to the high attacks and great hit/wound. Outcasts battalion is not a bad way to get your 3 battleline and another artifact/CP.

I don't think I'd invest much into them though (maybe units of 10 as chaff?). Certainly great with the dreadwood and Drycha rerolls but the dreadwood list is probably a bit 1 dimentional, and you still get little value out of all the special rules against bravery 10 or battleshock immune stuff. 


Spites will be absolutely brutal now. I’ve played with them for a while and even at 4+/4+ they did a decent job at squeezing a few wounds out of a unit. 

But now a unit of 20 is sporting 60 attacks, at 3+/3+. thats going to suuucckkk for anybody who gets hit with that. Also, don’t dismiss the D3 extra models fleeing from battleshock. Especially if you synergize and bring the floating tree with an extra D3 on top of that.

Think about it. Say a branchwytch hero with the crown of fell bowers (RR wounds vs 1 enemy unit during the combat phase), and an arch-revenant with the Wraithstone and warsinger and a unit of 10 spites. In the hero phase, the wytch casts spiteswarm Endless spell for the +3 move/ +3 charge

That unit now has a threat range of “8+2D6 (lets say we take a high average to low average of 6”-8”)+5” (warsinger+endless spell)= 19”-21”. Arch-rev pops his command ability and the spites are rolling 40 attacks 3’s by 3’s, RR failed wounds. And whatever doesn’t evaporate from combat will definitely flee from battleshock; bravery 10 or not.
 

44 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

She could be with the winterleaf ability... I'm not sure how that interacts with her 6=mortal wound ability though. 


New Drycha is absolute murder and worth every penny of her 40pt increase. On average she’s doing an 5 mortal wounds from her squirmlings/flitterfuries and that’s just for showing up. Not to mention her 6 talon atacks at two damage now at rend -2.

The wording on winterleaf suggests any sixes to hit count as 2 sixes = i.e. 2 mortal wounds. That makes Drycha a 10 MW generator in your turn, and likely 6 MW in your enemies phase for 16MW just for taking Winterleaf and showing up. I’m stil convinces Alarielle and winterleaf+ arch rev CA is better Nuke, but Drycha isn’t anything to sneeze at. 
 

Edited by Mirage8112
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I've just quickly ran through all the changes. For a person who played Gnarlwood Wargrove it's hard to comment without swearing. I'm not sure how to name what Gnarlwood was changed into now? 

From my perspective most of the things I cared about was changed for worse. As if this army needed any nerfs. Biggest disappointment in AoS so far I guess.

I see how people running dreadwood are happy with the changes but my playstyle seems no longer supported. It will take some work to adapt to new battletome. Don't like it at first glance. 

😔

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3 minutes ago, Aryann said:

I've just quickly ran through all the changes. For a person who played Gnarlwood Wargrove it's hard to comment without swearing. I'm not sure how to name what Gnarlwood was changed into now? 

From my perspective most of the things I cared about was changed for worse. As if this army needed any nerfs. Biggest disappointment in AoS so far I guess.

I understand the frustration, it looks like Gnarlroot's power lies solely in the artefact... and we lack a good multi-caster to really take advantage of it. 

Overall the changes are growing on me however. Question - do we think Bow Kurnoths could make a comeback with the Heartwood artefact? Rerolling all hits really shores up their largest issue, and doing it from 30" is just massive. Likely 3 units of 3 Hunters (more Huntmasters)... I know our trees blocking LoS is a pain, but I wonder if it can have a large impact as mobile artillery. 

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15 minutes ago, Aryann said:

I've just quickly ran through all the changes. For a person who played Gnarlwood Wargrove it's hard to comment without swearing. I'm not sure how to name what Gnarlwood was changed into now? 

From my perspective most of the things I cared about was changed for worse. As if this army needed any nerfs. Biggest disappointment in AoS so far I guess.

I see how people running dreadwood are happy with the changes but my playstyle seems no longer supported. It will take some work to adapt to new battletome. Don't like it at first glance. 

😔

As a former SCE player i can understand where you're coming from. Not that the sce 2.0 tome was just nerfs or anything like that but pretty much everything I liked about them changed. Yes Evocators and Sequitors are bonkers but its really really boring to be limited like that. You want a nice shooting unit? Great! here are 6 different units to choose from! Except every unit does the same thing and one of them is the best option. Elite melee units? -> Evocators (paladins are a joke compared to these AND are more expensive). Battleline?-> Sequitors.


The list goes on. Thats one of the reasons i got started with a second army. But i also learned that even if things get changed there will always be things that are extremely fun. Wait until the new battletome is out and people got a change to experiment. I'm sure there will be something that fits your playstyle. It might not be the most optimized list but you shouldn't loose hope right from the get go. If you like casting spells alot there are a ton of new artefacts and combos that you'll surely like. The new deepwood lore spells are also very nice and the endless spells are just insanely cost effective.


E.G. Run a branchwych with a balewind vortex the artefact that gives you +1 cast per turn and throne of vines as lore spell. Thats 3 casts per turn and after casting throne of vines you got +2 on the next 2 spells. perfect for pumping out endless spells. Another nice combo (pretty much what gnarlroot did just better) is giving verdurous regrowth to a mage and give him the artefact vesperal gem. Thats a guaranteed non bindable revive of units just like gnarlroot.

Edit: the new gnarlroot artefact is also really powerful

Edited by IRifter
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