AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Isotop]

For everyone who really wants to hide their Arch-Revenant in a Wyldwood: Hit him with an endless spell and use Ultimare Sacrifice. Problem "solved". 😋

Edited May 24, 2019 by Isotop

[Kairos Tejedestinos]

1 minute ago, Isotop said:

For everyone who really wants to hide their Arch-Revenant in a Wyldwood: Hit him with an endless spell and use Ultimare Sacrifice. Problem "solved". 😋

I like the cut of your jib.

[Trevelyan]

36 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

Any ideas if they will release more copies of Looncurse? It seems weird that they would want to encourage the inflated ebay prices. 

If it is only intended as a limited run then why would eBay prices matter? 

[ElectricPaladin]

1 hour ago, Isotop said:

For everyone who really wants to hide their Arch-Revenant in a Wyldwood: Hit him with an endless spell and use Ultimare Sacrifice. Problem "solved". 😋

Noooooo! Not the buggo frend!

[HollowHills]

4 hours ago, Trevelyan said:

If it is only intended as a limited run then why would eBay prices matter? 

Because ebay sellers are then encouraged to order loads of copies and resell them for profit. Which is bad for players who want those models at a fair price. 

The issue being it could be a long time before the archrevenant is available separately too. Basically it is an out of print model which is, likely, competitive in the current mets / new battletome. 

Also because GW tend to only give a week's notice on releases, it can be hard to budget for that. Especially if it will sell out immediately. 

So basically, it would just be better to run these boxes for a set amount of time but meet demand. Then release the unique models separately and discontinue the box. 

[The World Tree]

GW has admitted publicly that they underestimated demand. They are also clearly struggling for production. They want to be selling to you, they just can't. 

[HollowHills]

2 minutes ago, The World Tree said:

GW has admitted publicly that they underestimated demand. They are also clearly struggling for production. They want to be selling to you, they just can't. 

Ah OK cool, maybe a chance for a second run then if lucky. 

[Mirage8112]

On 5/23/2019 at 9:47 AM, Almace038 said:

The Arch-Revenant flies, so she can’t hide in the woods.

******.

@CrazeIn that case, Briarsheath is probably the single best artifact you can give him for survivability, since it provides nearly a 10% boost against all attack that require a hit roll. It also has the bonus of lower the chance of “on hit of 6+” effects from going off. Oaken armor is probably next best,  giving him +1 to his save, and if you have a TLA on the board (or you manage to get mystic shield off on him, he can RR 1’s). The problem here is that neither of those will happen if your opponent takes first turn, and it doesn’t do a whole lot to protect from rend.  

Above and beyond that, there is no real downside to making the arch revenant to your general to give a command trait and an artifact. In the first few incarnations of AoS, only your general could use command abilities. But since that’s a thing of the past, the only reason not to make him yogurt General would be if your playing in a tournament (sine killing an enemy germinal will usually be a secondary objective) or if you wanted to give another model extra protection (TLA for example).  

In that case, gnarled warrior + oaken armor is a really solid combo. There is very little rend -2 shooting in the game and since it’s pretty easy to screen out a 12”-18” bubble to protect from ambushes. A 3+ save without worrying about most rend is nearly a 20% boost on defense and better than briarsheath alone. It wont protect your from MW, so its not a terrible idea to make sure he’s properly screened in the first turn.   

[Zanzou]

16 hours ago, HollowHills said:

Ah OK cool, maybe a chance for a second run then if lucky. 

*Gonna be negative but real with you*

 They won’t. To say they “underestimated demand” is being quite generous to GW. If carrion empire already sold out as fast as it did, do you really think that they wouldn’t realize a box-set deal with one of the most popular AoS factions (sylvaneth) would not sell even faster? They knew there would be demand for this, and they purposefully low-ball to A) create artificial demand so that their audience feels more pressure to spend ASAP when anything they MIGHT be interested in getting is released and B) They are known for being super stingy about ever having “deal” boxes sit on the shelves too long. The fact that the slaves to darkness battleforce still hasn’t sold out yet is probably their worst nightmare for them right now (even though anyone could have told you that the sales for battleforcing a faction that they never bothered to give a battletome would be low).  Their goal is 100% to sell out within a month or so beyond all else and I can GUARANTEE you that they’d rather run out way too early than have even 1 extra box left that they couldn’t sell- it would destroy the illusion of demand.

[kenshin620]

2 hours ago, Zanzou said:

 I can GUARANTEE you that they’d rather run out way too early than have even 1 extra box left that they couldn’t sell

 

Or somehow end up with a dreadfleet situation. Thats a fringe case but it was pretty sad to see dreadfleet boxes around 3 years after its release.

[Namelessone81]

Noobie question :

Can a unit that has “fly” keyword see my unit that is inside a Sylvaneth Wyldwood ? (All the models on the terrain) 

can the flying unit make a spell against my covered unit if the spell say “must me visible” ?

[feltmonkey]

3 hours ago, Zanzou said:

*Gonna be negative but real with you*

 They won’t. To say they “underestimated demand” is being quite generous to GW. If carrion empire already sold out as fast as it did, do you really think that they wouldn’t realize a box-set deal with one of the most popular AoS factions (sylvaneth) would not sell even faster? They knew there would be demand for this, and they purposefully low-ball to A) create artificial demand so that their audience feels more pressure to spend ASAP when anything they MIGHT be interested in getting is released and B) They are known for being super stingy about ever having “deal” boxes sit on the shelves too long. The fact that the slaves to darkness battleforce still hasn’t sold out yet is probably their worst nightmare for them right now (even though anyone could have told you that the sales for battleforcing a faction that they never bothered to give a battletome would be low).  Their goal is 100% to sell out within a month or so beyond all else and I can GUARANTEE you that they’d rather run out way too early than have even 1 extra box left that they couldn’t sell- it would destroy the illusion of demand.

I think you're being overly harsh, and completely ignoring the economic reality of the situation. 

 

These boxes cost more to produce than the separate boxes of miniatures that they comprise of - the books they come with cost money to design and produce. They then sell them for less than the usual cost of the miniatures. The profit margin is therefore much smaller than selling the individual boxes of minis. Of course they need to sell out. It's not as easy as you suggest to predict demand, and they will have produced as many boxes as they felt they could sell without going over that number. Look at Speed Freeks - anyone would have predicted that would have been massive, but my FLGS still has six of them on the shelves. 

 

I agree that there won't be a second run, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the Arch Revenant appear as a separate model pretty soon. 

 

I reserve my grumbles not for GW, but for the ebay scalpers who buy up so much of the stock of these boxes to sell off piecemeal for a profit. 

Edited May 25, 2019 by feltmonkey

[HollowHills]

46 minutes ago, feltmonkey said:

I reserve my grumbles not for GW, but for the ebay scalpers who buy up so much of the stock of these boxes to sell off piecemeal for a profit. 

Exactly, no issue with GW wanting to produce a limit run product but this is what causes me a headache. 

[Paladin of Khorne]

Any word or update on the new release holdups?

[daviseford]

I developed a nifty online tool last week that might help you guys with your battles in the future. As a Seraphon player, I was always stressed that I was forgetting to do things in the right phase.

So, I developed AoS Reminders. It has Seraphon, Gloomspite Gitz, and most importantly, Sylvaneth!!!!

Check it out here -> https://daviseford.com/aos-reminders/

Basically, you add your units, battalions, command traits, realmscape features, and artifacts, and you will get an ordered list of what abilities to use during which phase. Sylvaneth has been heavily requested since I launched this tool - since I play against Sylvaneth a lot, I know how many rules you guys have to remember ;).

I hope this cheat sheet helps you be more efficient (and win more battles!)

Please give it a whirl and let me know if you enjoy it! I would LOVE some feedback and critiques! If you notice that a rule is wrong, please either tell me here or post it as an issue here

P.S. it is print-friendly! When you hit print, all of the fancy UI elements are stripped out and you get a list like so:

[Mirage8112]

9 hours ago, Zanzou said:

Gonna be negative but real with you*

 They won’t. To say they “underestimated demand” is being quite generous to GW. If carrion empire already sold out as fast as it did, do you really think that they wouldn’t realize a box-set deal with one of the most popular AoS factions (sylvaneth) would not sell even faster? They knew there would be demand for this, and they purposefully low-ball to A) create artificial demand so that their audience feels more pressure to spend ASAP when anything they MIGHT be interested in getting is released and B) They are known for being super stingy about ever having “deal” boxes sit on the shelves too long. The fact that the slaves to darkness battleforce still hasn’t sold out yet is probably their worst nightmare for them right now (even though anyone could have told you that the sales for battleforcing a faction that they never bothered to give a battletome would be low).  Their goal is 100% to sell out within a month or so beyond all else and I can GUARANTEE you that they’d rather run out way too early than have even 1 extra box left that they couldn’t sell- it would destroy the illusion of demand.

Ah yes. The “GW are evil geniuses” theory.  

[Zanzou]

Let me preface my post by saying GW is under no obligation to do anything for us as customers.  This post is simply an extension of my previous post about why their true business goals have become clear.

5 hours ago, HollowHills said:

Exactly, no issue with GW wanting to produce a limit run product but this is what causes me a headache.

The problem is, scalpers will always scalp with extremely unbalanced product vs demand.  Other than not limiting sales to X number of boxes per customer, massively "underestimating" demand on the company side of things is actually the root cause of the issue.  For example, the situation that happened with Nintendo and the classic NES is a prime example of this.  They made less than 1/10th of what would sell- scalpers knew this and took advantage.

6 hours ago, feltmonkey said:

I think you're being overly harsh, and completely ignoring the economic reality of the situation...

...It's not as easy as you suggest to predict demand, and they will have produced as many boxes as they felt they could sell without going over that number.

Here's the thing- it really is that easy, and I'll describe how below.  Like you said, it costs a lot to make these boxed sets from scratch- from the artwork to the writing of the book- that's why I'm simply advocating that they COULD capitalize on the investment that went into this set and actually sell it to gain a maximum return on investment, if they actually wanted to.

  I'll briefly go along with you and pretend that GW didn't ignore the success of carrion empire and could not have realized that sylvaneth would sell way more.  If GW ACTUALLY, actually wanted to meet demand for their box-set?  There are two simple solutions.  

Solution 1:  Do not announce the product only a week or so before release, with predetermined production numbers.  Start taking pre-orders early and order the # of boxes to be produced based on pre-order demand.  I think we all need to take a step back here and realize that they sold out of PRE- orders. Can you see how avoidable that is?

Solution 2:  If you sell out on the 2nd to 3rd day of pre-orders, simply respond to demand and order a very limited "second run".  The thing is, you know they will not.  I know they will not.  GW does not do things like that because like it or not what I said in my original post is 100% true.  They care more about maintaining the image of demand for their products.

22 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

Ah yes. The “GW are evil geniuses” theory.  

If I was wrong, GW could produce even a very limited second run of this box-set to meet their demand.  They won't.  They want the demand to stay and they want the rest of the people who were going to buy the set to pay full price for the Arch-Revenant now. However, if they did make a second run,  I will come back to this forum and eat my words.

[Mirage8112]

33 minutes ago, Zanzou said:

If I was wrong, GW could produce even a very limited second run of this box-set to meet their demand.  They won't.  They want the demand to stay and they want the rest of the people who were going to buy the set to pay full price for the Arch-Revenant now. However, if they did make a second run,  I will come back to this forum and eat my words.

 Yes. I’m certain GW is reading this forum right now and fully intends to do this solely to prove you wrong. /sarcasm 

[Zanzou]

3 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

 Yes. I’m certain GW is reading this forum right now and fully intends to do this solely to prove you wrong. /sarcasm 

The fact you think they’d only do it to prove me wrong, even sarcastically, kind of proves my point 😆

Edited May 25, 2019 by Zanzou

[Aezeal]

On 5/24/2019 at 9:48 PM, Mirage8112 said:

******.

@CrazeIn that case, Briarsheath is probably the single best artifact you can give him for survivability, since it provides nearly a 10% boost against all attack that require a hit roll. It also has the bonus of lower the chance of “on hit of 6+” effects from going off. Oaken armor is probably next best,  giving him +1 to his save, and if you have a TLA on the board (or you manage to get mystic shield off on him, he can RR 1’s). The problem here is that neither of those will happen if your opponent takes first turn, and it doesn’t do a whole lot to protect from rend.  

Above and beyond that, there is no real downside to making the arch revenant to your general to give a command trait and an artifact. In the first few incarnations of AoS, only your general could use command abilities. But since that’s a thing of the past, the only reason not to make him yogurt General would be if your playing in a tournament (sine killing an enemy germinal will usually be a secondary objective) or if you wanted to give another model extra protection (TLA for example).  

In that case, gnarled warrior + oaken armor is a really solid combo. There is very little rend -2 shooting in the game and since it’s pretty easy to screen out a 12”-18” bubble to protect from ambushes. A 3+ save without worrying about most rend is nearly a 20% boost on defense and better than briarsheath alone. It wont protect your from MW, so its not a terrible idea to make sure he’s properly screened in the first turn.   

Gryph feather charm?

[feltmonkey]

1 hour ago, Zanzou said:

Let me preface my post by saying GW is under no obligation to do anything for us as customers.  This post is simply an extension of my previous post about why their true business goals have become clear.

The problem is, scalpers will always scalp with extremely unbalanced product vs demand.  Other than not limiting sales to X number of boxes per customer, massively "underestimating" demand on the company side of things is actually the root cause of the issue.  For example, the situation that happened with Nintendo and the classic NES is a prime example of this.  They made less than 1/10th of what would sell- scalpers knew this and took advantage.

Here's the thing- it really is that easy, and I'll describe how below.  Like you said, it costs a lot to make these boxed sets from scratch- from the artwork to the writing of the book- that's why I'm simply advocating that they COULD capitalize on the investment that went into this set and actually sell it to gain a maximum return on investment, if they actually wanted to.

  I'll briefly go along with you and pretend that GW didn't ignore the success of carrion empire and could not have realized that sylvaneth would sell way more.  If GW ACTUALLY, actually wanted to meet demand for their box-set?  There are two simple solutions.  

Solution 1:  Do not announce the product only a week or so before release, with predetermined production numbers.  Start taking pre-orders early and order the # of boxes to be produced based on pre-order demand.  I think we all need to take a step back here and realize that they sold out of PRE- orders. Can you see how avoidable that is?

Solution 2:  If you sell out on the 2nd to 3rd day of pre-orders, simply respond to demand and order a very limited "second run".  The thing is, you know they will not.  I know they will not.  GW does not do things like that because like it or not what I said in my original post is 100% true.  They care more about maintaining the image of demand for their products.

If I was wrong, GW could produce even a very limited second run of this box-set to meet their demand.  They won't.  They want the demand to stay and they want the rest of the people who were going to buy the set to pay full price for the Arch-Revenant now. However, if they did make a second run,  I will come back to this forum and eat my words.

You can't make "very limited" runs of this sort of thing and sell it at the same price they did for Looncurse. Printing runs, of both the books and the sprues, need to be of a certain size to even be profitable. The economics of scale come into play.  Also, I seriously doubt that such a limited run could be produced as quickly as you seem to imagine. If a second print was to appear, even then we probably wouldn't see it for several months. Demand now does not guarantee demand in two or three months time. It just doesn't. 

 

The fact that you are amazed that something can sell out in the pre-order stage shows that you don't really understand how this sort of thing works. The print numbers were decided months ago. Taking pre-orders earlier wouldn't have guaranteed against selling out of pre-orders. The only way to guard against this is to do something more akin to kickstarter, but that's pretty incompatible with GW's business model. Kickstarters for miniature games tend to be fulfilled well over a year after being announced. If GW started doing this - announcing the concept of a big box and taking pre-orders eighteen months before they hit the shops, well it would be ludicrous. They would have to take payment at the time of the pre-order, otherwise a raft of cancellations due to a shift in the meta or something could have disastrous consequences. All the excitement about releases and announcements would fizzle away by the time the models appeared. You wouldn't even eliminate the problem you're talking about. You'd still have people who decide too late that they want a box and are disappointed, the only difference is that they could be disappointed a year before the thing is released. 

 

Sales of Looncurse seem to have been massive. Going by my local gaming store, who are admittedly one of the bigger ones in the UK, they had taken quite a lot of pre-orders, and for some reason held back a few for release day for walk-in customers* as well. When I picked my box up they had about ten boxes piled up on the counter. So they must have had loads of boxes in. I think rather than Looncurse being really limited, it just sold extraordinarily well. 

 

*If I had known they were planning to do this, I would have publicised the fact on these boards so that at least the few who were desperate for the box and geographically close enough could have made the trip to get one. Sadly, the rate they were selling made it obvious that it would have been futile to post about it by the time I went in and realised they had stock. Sorry all. 

[Mirage8112]

+++ MOD EDIT +++ No leaked pictures please!

[the_master288]

4 hours ago, feltmonkey said:

You can't make "very limited" runs of this sort of thing and sell it at the same price they did for Looncurse. Printing runs, of both the books and the sprues, need to be of a certain size to even be profitable. The economics of scale come into play.  Also, I seriously doubt that such a limited run could be produced as quickly as you seem to imagine. If a second print was to appear, even then we probably wouldn't see it for several months. Demand now does not guarantee demand in two or three months time. It just doesn't. 

 

The fact that you are amazed that something can sell out in the pre-order stage shows that you don't really understand how this sort of thing works. The print numbers were decided months ago. Taking pre-orders earlier wouldn't have guaranteed against selling out of pre-orders. The only way to guard against this is to do something more akin to kickstarter, but that's pretty incompatible with GW's business model. Kickstarters for miniature games tend to be fulfilled well over a year after being announced. If GW started doing this - announcing the concept of a big box and taking pre-orders eighteen months before they hit the shops, well it would be ludicrous. They would have to take payment at the time of the pre-order, otherwise a raft of cancellations due to a shift in the meta or something could have disastrous consequences. All the excitement about releases and announcements would fizzle away by the time the models appeared. You wouldn't even eliminate the problem you're talking about. You'd still have people who decide too late that they want a box and are disappointed, the only difference is that they could be disappointed a year before the thing is released. 

 

Sales of Looncurse seem to have been massive. Going by my local gaming store, who are admittedly one of the bigger ones in the UK, they had taken quite a lot of pre-orders, and for some reason held back a few for release day for walk-in customers* as well. When I picked my box up they had about ten boxes piled up on the counter. So they must have had loads of boxes in. I think rather than Looncurse being really limited, it just sold extraordinarily well. 

 

*If I had known they were planning to do this, I would have publicised the fact on these boards so that at least the few who were desperate for the box and geographically close enough could have made the trip to get one. Sadly, the rate they were selling made it obvious that it would have been futile to post about it by the time I went in and realised they had stock. Sorry all. 

It's more that GW should've done Pre-Orders farther in advance so that they can gauge the market better.  Wouldn't it be better for GW to have an adequate number of Pre-Order sales so that everyone who is interested could get a box?  I see no reason for them to not be able to take Pre-Orders further in advance, make a decision based on how many Pre-Orders to manufacture that many, and then add an extra percentage as "Extra Sales".  

It's ludicrous that some people on this very forum didn't even get their copy that they had "Pre-Ordered".  All because GW decided long ago that they were going to only do a release with X number of copies, instead of gauging just how much interest there was from a real "Pre-Order" system.  I also heavily doubt it takes GW 18 months from idea -> release.  They have the manpower and the skill to do projects at a faster pace than a Kickstarter would be able to.

[Mirage8112]

1 minute ago, the_master288 said:

Stuff

The only reason this matters (or anyone cares)  is because of the arch revenant. Everybody keeps talking about, “how garbage t-revs are” and now they care that they cant get their hands on a bunch of t-revs all of a sudden? Give me a break...

If it matters all that much to you proxy a model until the arch-rev actually comes out. That way you don’t have to buy a bunch of units you probably won’t use, making whatever money you saved on the box totally pointless. 

Looncurse was a box supposed to bring NEW people into the hobby by giving them two semi-balanced forces to play with for the first time. GW clearly underestimated the sheer insanity that new plastic crack would create among established players; because quite frankly everyone freaking out about this needs to get hit in the head with a giant cartoon hammer and take a nap for a bit.  

[Jasonleehj]

+++ MOD EDIT +++ No leaked pictures please!

A closer zoomed photo.

I like how the Wyldwood is now going to be a constant D3 threat for every charge phase regardless of whether the enemy charged or not (but good luck to bringing allies...). As for placement, do you think it would be possible for the area inside the Wyldwood circle to allow for already placed terrain? Such that you count the distance for placement of Wyldwoods from each model and not the completed circle itself l. Would fix the biggest issues regarding wyldwood placement!

Edited May 26, 2019 by RuneBrush