AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Luke1705]

Oh and it being one drop was just in line with the idea that multiple units could teleport using the dreadwood ability.  If the entire army is part of the battalion (and the rule works for all) then the whole army could redeploy if you were a one drop

[AaronWilson]

15 hours ago, jake3991 said:

Awesome! What are you running? I've been doing this.

Durthu

TLA

branchwitch

branchwraith

5 tree revs

20 dryads 

20 dryads 

6 hunters 

household/gnarlroot 

Hey dude, what I'm currently playing with is 

TLA
Ignax's Scales
Gnarled Warrior 
Regrowth 

Branchwraith 
Ranus Lamentiri 
Verdant Blessing

Brancwych 
Acorn of the Ages
Throne of Vines 

30 Dryads 
5 Tree Revenants
5 Tree Revenants 

3 Kurnoth Hunters (Bows)
3 Kurnoth Hunters (Bows)
3 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes)
3 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes) 

Quicksilver Swords
Soulsnare Shackles
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh

Household
Gnarlroot 

It's 2k on the head and I've had a fair amount of success with it, in practice games I'm 6-2 with it. On average I'm looking at 30 free dryads & returning 3 Kurnoth hunters a game, so I'm normally 500 points ish up. Nagash / Tzeentch tend to reduce that number. 

[a74xhx]

I was looking at the Blackout 2018 results:  https://aosshorts.com/blackout-2018-report/

A Sylvaneth list came 9th:

Spirit of Durthu (380) - General. Gnarled Warrior.

Alarielle the Everqueen (600)- Throne of vines.

Treelord Ancient (300) - Regrowth

Drycha Hamadreth (280)- Verdant blessing. Swarm, of sqirmlings.

Branchwraith (80) - Regrowth. Acorn of the ages.

10x Dryads (100)

10x Dryads (100)

10x Dryads (100)

Chronomatic Cogs (60)

2000 points.

I found it a little surprising. Only 85 wounds. Min sized dryad units. No revenants. No battalions. No rubbish taken in order to fulfil requirements elsewhere. No oaken armour!! - that TLA is going to be squishier than I'm used to. 

However, it does have ALL the big guys. TLA and Durthu and Alarielle and Drycha. Yowsa.

Got me thinking - Is that Dryad >12 bonus and -30 points for 30 of them really worth it if in return you need to take even more battleline? When instead you have more room for something really cool.

Curious how the cogs were used and what Alarielle summoned (Kurnoth sword/scythes I'd hope), and if TLA and Durthu stuck together or split up.

Edited September 28, 2018 by a74xhx
formatting

[jake3991]

A similar list  got 3rd at Midwest meltdown!  https://aosshorts.com/midwest-meltdown-results-and-recap/#more-2977

Perhaps monster mash is workable? In my mind the benefit for some of our battalions is tremendous, being a one drop army. All the other special rules for gnarlroot or the like are just gravy. 

 

 

[Amradiel]

1 hour ago, jake3991 said:

A similar list  got 3rd at Midwest meltdown!  https://aosshorts.com/midwest-meltdown-results-and-recap/#more-2977

Perhaps monster mash is workable? In my mind the benefit for some of our battalions is tremendous, being a one drop army. All the other special rules for gnarlroot or the like are just gravy. 

 

 

I really like this one. My old list is quite similar. I use gnarlroot. Ancient instead of Durthu. And only 3 Kurnoth hunters . Try to summon more hunters and Dryads. 

[Lanoss]

On the Dreadwood topic:

the stratagems clearly state:

-A (singular) Dreadwood unit can be redeployed outside 6”

-Up to 3 Dreadwood unit’s can immediately move as if it were the movement phase 

Nowhere can it possibly infer that the entire battalion can do these moves. 

I undertand people wanting to make that stretch but as the rules read it’s quite clear 

just my 2c  

[Isotop]

3 hours ago, Lanoss said:

On the Dreadwood topic:

the stratagems clearly state:

-A (singular) Dreadwood unit can be redeployed outside 6”

-Up to 3 Dreadwood unit’s can immediately move as if it were the movement phase 

Nowhere can it possibly infer that the entire battalion can do these moves. 

I undertand people wanting to make that stretch but as the rules read it’s quite clear 

just my 2c  

Beforehand I want to say: I play the Ambush rule exactly like you (and probably 99% of the player base). But the written rules are not as clear as you make them - a theme we often engage in the context of GW´s rules writing.

The rule in question states: 

"Ambush:  A Dreadwood unit can be redeployed anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 6"from an enemy unit." (p.126 Sylvaneth Battletome)

There are two points that are, in my view, pretty catastrophic:

(1) Gnarlroot Wargrove´s Seekers of Knowledge rule uses exactly the same wording and was ruled to affect all models in question (not a singular one).

(2) If the first "a" has a singular meaning, does the second ("an enemy unit") as well? Is the redeployed unit allowed to be closer than 6" to enemy units as long as it is more than 6" away from a (singular) enemy unit?

Again, I am playing Ambush with one unit redeploying more than 6" from all enemy units - because I am convinced that is the way GW wanted it to work and they way they will FAQ/clarify it (someday). I am not playing it this way because the written rules clearly tell me so - such a clarity of rules simply does not exist. 

 

Edited September 29, 2018 by Isotop

[Twh30]

Hi there looking for options on which generally performs better treelord ancient or kurnoth hunters. Considering whether 2x ancients or not 

[LennyB]

Hi all, I have a rules question.  Playing my first game with Sylvaneth tomorrow against Seraphon.  Probably get my teeth kicked in simply because I'll forget a bunch of cool stuff.  That being said.  My question is for Drycha's Colony of Flitterflies...does this need line of sight?  The way it reads in the book I would say no, I haven't seen anything in FAQ about it either.  "10 dice for each unit in range" seems like it is just a bubble.  Thanks for the help!

 

[Lhw]

7 hours ago, LennyB said:

Hi all, I have a rules question.  Playing my first game with Sylvaneth tomorrow against Seraphon.  Probably get my teeth kicked in simply because I'll forget a bunch of cool stuff.  That being said.  My question is for Drycha's Colony of Flitterflies...does this need line of sight?  The way it reads in the book I would say no, I haven't seen anything in FAQ about it either.  "10 dice for each unit in range" seems like it is just a bubble.  Thanks for the help!

 

Hi Lenny, I think it does require line of sight, unfortunately. It is listed as a missile attack, and in the core rules a stage of using a missile attack refers to needing line of sight. 

[LennyB]

Thanks @LHW.  One other question with respect to the Woods roused by magic.  Is it only the wood that the spell was cast near, or all of the woods on the board if a spell is cast?  I'm thinking the first but not sure.

[Cblackaus]

With  Dreadwood Subterfuge, does it happen before or after it is determined which player will have first turn? 

Edited September 30, 2018 by Cblackaus

[Lhw]

3 hours ago, LennyB said:

Thanks @LHW.  One other question with respect to the Woods roused by magic.  Is it only the wood that the spell was cast near, or all of the woods on the board if a spell is cast?  I'm thinking the first but not sure.

Think it says a a wood within 6" of the caster in the rules. 

[LennyB]

Just played my first game with Sylvaneth against Seraphon.  Arcane Places.  Spirit of Durthu with Ghyrstrike is a BEAST!  Wiped out a large unit of Temple Guard turn 1, then a Slaan turn 2.  We got booted from the table after turn 3 (one man shop with one table sucks.  Kill Team megabattle was reserved on the one table.  Guess how many players showed up to play that.  One.) .   Got one turn of shooting in with Drycha, then decided to charge Bastilladon to see what she can do in combat, d3 wounds make short work of her.  Next time I'll bubble wrap her in Dryads to keep her shooting the Flitterflies. Need to remember the rule for Wyldwood that units that end charge or run need to roll to see if they die, totally forgot about that.   Anyhow, Sylvaneth was a ton of fun to play and we had a major victory.

[Chibbins]

Got a small rules query I’m hoping somebody could help me answer - when the branchwraith summons dryads into a wyldwood, the spell states that those dryads cannot move that turn. Does that include using the spirit paths to move them to a different wyldwood considering that would be considered “setting up” the unit rather than a move?

[LennyB]

18 minutes ago, Chibbins said:

Got a small rules query I’m hoping somebody could help me answer - when the branchwraith summons dryads into a wyldwood, the spell states that those dryads cannot move that turn. Does that include using the spirit paths to move them to a different wyldwood considering that would be considered “setting up” the unit rather than a move?

Yes, the spirit paths counts as a move.

[MayItBe]

6 hours ago, LennyB said:

Yes, the spirit paths counts as a move.

While i was at Warhammer World Europe, i've asked judge about the same issue. He found this in the FAQ:

He said that he is not sure (as he is not from rule team) but it would use this FAQ statement, and just restrict you from making normal move.

[romhi]

On 9/30/2018 at 12:50 AM, LennyB said:

Hi all, I have a rules question.  Playing my first game with Sylvaneth tomorrow against Seraphon.  Probably get my teeth kicked in simply because I'll forget a bunch of cool stuff.  That being said.  My question is for Drycha's Colony of Flitterflies...does this need line of sight?  The way it reads in the book I would say no, I haven't seen anything in FAQ about it either.  "10 dice for each unit in range" seems like it is just a bubble.  Thanks for the help!

 

 

On 9/30/2018 at 8:08 AM, Lhw said:

Hi Lenny, I think it does require line of sight, unfortunately. It is listed as a missile attack, and in the core rules a stage of using a missile attack refers to needing line of sight. 

This is an interesting question that comes up a lot of times. Many people say that you need los and many say you don't. Apart from being a missile attack, it is also an ability that has its own rules stated on the warscroll without any need of visibility. The safest bet would be to discuss this with your opponent/judge/organizer. If my memory serves me right in the last 1-2 years I have only seen it played as not needing los as it is an area of effect ability. This does not mean that this is the right way to play.

 

7 hours ago, Chibbins said:

Got a small rules query I’m hoping somebody could help me answer - when the branchwraith summons dryads into a wyldwood, the spell states that those dryads cannot move that turn. Does that include using the spirit paths to move them to a different wyldwood considering that would be considered “setting up” the unit rather than a move?

The exact words from the battletome states: "If a SYLVANETH unit is within 3"of a Sylvaneth Wyldwood at the start of your movement phase, it can attempt to traverse the spirit paths instead of moving normally.

In my reading you "exchange" your normal move for a teleport. If you can't move at all in the movement phase I feel like you can't teleport either. I could be wrong, the only similar thing that comes to mind are the new summoning abilities from other armies. Most of them can summon at the end of the movement phase thus locking you out of such options like this one. 

[Yoshiya]

8 minutes ago, romhi said:

 

This is an interesting question that comes up a lot of times. Many people say that you need los and many say you don't. Apart from being a missile attack, it is also an ability that has its own rules stated on the warscroll without any need of visibility. The safest bet would be to discuss this with your opponent/judge/organizer. If my memory serves me right in the last 1-2 years I have only seen it played as not needing los as it is an area of effect ability. This does not mean that this is the right way to play.

 

The exact words from the battletome states: "If a SYLVANETH unit is within 3"of a Sylvaneth Wyldwood at the start of your movement phase, it can attempt to traverse the spirit paths instead of moving normally.

In my reading you "exchange" your normal move for a teleport. If you can't move at all in the movement phase I feel like you can't teleport either. I could be wrong, the only similar thing that comes to mind are the new summoning abilities from other armies. Most of them can summon at the end of the movement phase thus locking you out of such options like this one. 

That's the same understanding I have for it. You can only teleport if you can move and newly summoned units can't move the same turn they appeared.

As for that FAQ I'd say it's irrelevant as it's talking about units that are reset up and not ones newly set up (though the two are similar).

[Lhw]

@romhi the core rules say:

"MISSILE WEAPONS
In order to attack with a missile
weapon, the model using the weapon
must be in range of the target unit
(i.e. within the maximum distance,
in inches, of the Range listed for the
weapon making the attack), and the
target unit must be visible to the
model with the weapon"

It's listed as a missile weapon on Drycha's profile. It may have been played previously as not needing LoS, but I guess it came up less then? Now, with Wyldwoods rules, probs more likely to happen. I really think it clearly needs LoS. 

[Kaylethia]

@Lhw The warscroll states "When she attacks with her Colony of Flitterfuries, roll 10 dice for each unit within the range shown on the damage table." 

Perhaps we'll see an FAQ or rewording, but for the time being, I'd argue that it doesn't require line of sight. 

[Isotop]

16 minutes ago, Lhw said:

@romhi the core rules say:

"MISSILE WEAPONS
In order to attack with a missile
weapon, the model using the weapon
must be in range of the target unit
(i.e. within the maximum distance,
in inches, of the Range listed for the
weapon making the attack), and the
target unit must be visible to the
model with the weapon"

It's listed as a missile weapon on Drycha's profile. It may have been played previously as not needing LoS, but I guess it came up less then? Now, with Wyldwoods rules, probs more likely to happen. I really think it clearly needs LoS. 

So far I took the Thundertusk´s Frost-wreathed Ice as a reference. It is a missle weapon with a special way of attacking with it described by an ability. However, it states "[...]pick a unit within 18" that is visible to the Thundertusk[...]"(https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-thundertusk-en.pdf). If visibility of the target unit(s) was automatically included in (special) ranged attacks, there would be no need to state it in the Blasts of Frost-wreathed Ice ability. 

I understand that this is not a proof for "Drycha does not need LoS", but I think it is a very strong hint in this direction.

[Lhw]

2 minutes ago, Kaylethia said:

@Lhw The warscroll states "When she attacks with her Colony of Flitterfuries, roll 10 dice for each unit within the range shown on the damage table." 

Perhaps we'll see an FAQ or rewording, but for the time being, I'd argue that it doesn't require line of sight. 

It's listed as a missile weapon. So it has to follow the rules mentioned above. In the same way that you can't run and use it - it's down as a missile attack, so it has to follow all the rules of a missile weapon. I'm afraid I disagree with you and @Isotop. Think it's clearly covered under the core rules. If it wasn't listed as a missile weapon, like the dragonbreath ability or Heraldor, and was merely something that happened in the missile phase, I'd agree. 

[Isotop]

5 minutes ago, Kaylethia said:

@Lhw The warscroll states "When she attacks with her Colony of Flitterfuries, roll 10 dice for each unit within the range shown on the damage table." 

Perhaps we'll see an FAQ or rewording, but for the time being, I'd argue that it doesn't require line of sight. 

As @Lhw quoted, the Core Rules state "In order to attack with a missile weapon [...] the target unit must be visible to the model with the weapon"(emphasis mine). Drycha´s warscroll states "When she attacks[...]"(e.m.). An argument can be made that the Core Rule part is a requirement for the second quoted part to happen. 

As always: Thank you, GW, for excellent rules writing and consistency

[Isotop]

2 minutes ago, Lhw said:

It's listed as a missile weapon. So it has to follow the rules mentioned above. In the same way that you can't run and use it - it's down as a missile attack, so it has to follow all the rules of a missile weapon. I'm afraid I disagree with you and @Isotop. Think it's clearly covered under the core rules. If it wasn't listed as a missile weapon, like the dragonbreath ability or Heraldor, and was merely something that happened in the missile phase, I'd agree. 

What would be your reaction to my Thundertusk argument? (no offense)