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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

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So, I'm a new-ish player looking for advice on Sylvaneth. I usually play Living City, but the Sylvaneth models are gorgeous and it seems like it would make a good second army, seeing a each unit I add is potentially an addition to the Living City as well. Right now i've just got the  SC! box, with the treelord assembled as Durthu and one of the dryads converted with some Glade Guard bitz to be a Branchwraith. I'm thinking about getting the Looncurse box, probably for christmas, and splitting it with my sister as she loves Grots but doesn't yet have an army. Is this a good buy? I've found it for about $250, free shipping. If so, how should I assemble the Hunters? I adore the Bow models, but i've read they aren't very good. My list would look something like this:

Spirit of Durthu 300pts

Branchwych/Wraith 80

Arch Revenant 100 (Probably my General)

10 Dryads 100

10 Tree-Revenants (or 2x 5) 160

Kurnoth Hunters (Any loadout) 200

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I don't have too much an issue with TRevs other than the points being high and what's dumb is they've consistently dropped in points each year I think.  

It is also confusing the Arch Revenant doesn't buff (tree) revenants but instead Hunters (or make it both,..)  Seems a naming misnomer.  +1A on a large block of teleporting Tree Revenants from an Arch Revenant that can fly seems to make more sense.

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10 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

I don't have too much an issue with TRevs other than the points being high and what's dumb is they've consistently dropped in points each year I think.  

It is also confusing the Arch Revenant doesn't buff (tree) revenants but instead Hunters (or make it both,..)  Seems a naming misnomer.  +1A on a large block of teleporting Tree Revenants from an Arch Revenant that can fly seems to make more sense.

I know, right? And that the Branchwych, who looks like a Dryad, is linked by the lore to Tree-Revenants. Also that she looks more like Dryads than a Branchwraith, who ACTUALLY summons Dryads...

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7 minutes ago, AthelLoren said:

I know, right? And that the Branchwych, who looks like a Dryad, is linked by the lore to Tree-Revenants. Also that she looks more like Dryads than a Branchwraith, who ACTUALLY summons Dryads...

Branchwych needs some native protection if GW feels she belongs in CC doing damage.  🙄

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17 hours ago, AthelLoren said:

So, I'm a new-ish player looking for advice on Sylvaneth. I usually play Living City, but the Sylvaneth models are gorgeous and it seems like it would make a good second army, seeing a each unit I add is potentially an addition to the Living City as well. Right now i've just got the  SC! box, with the treelord assembled as Durthu and one of the dryads converted with some Glade Guard bitz to be a Branchwraith. I'm thinking about getting the Looncurse box, probably for christmas, and splitting it with my sister as she loves Grots but doesn't yet have an army. Is this a good buy? I've found it for about $250, free shipping. If so, how should I assemble the Hunters? I adore the Bow models, but i've read they aren't very good. My list would look something like this:

Spirit of Durthu 300pts

Branchwych/Wraith 80

Arch Revenant 100 (Probably my General)

10 Dryads 100

10 Tree-Revenants (or 2x 5) 160

Kurnoth Hunters (Any loadout) 200


The bows are not great at all, if they change arch revanent to work in shooting phase they might be worth it or give them flat damage rate. The 4+ to hit is so unreliable in a squad of three so many time I would get maybe 2 wounds through and then with D3 damage  you can get only 2 wounds in. For 200 points NOT WORTH haha, the great swords with the update are going to be your best all around hunter with mortals on 6s plus exploding 6s with glade and extra wound roll. Plus I prefer the flat damage of a 2 than D3. Statistically they beat out Sycthes on any opponent other than their 3+ save units. 

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Yes, the branchwych leading households of tree revenants and treelords while Arch Revenants buff kurnoths...makes good sense GW....🙄

There is no consistancy in the rules and the fluff. The latest book is a lazy copy/paste rush job and it shows. No depth in the roster (so many badly designed warscrolls), makes little sense fluffwise, little imagination and crazy point values...this book is a hard miss, in an otherwise good period of book design (cities book a month later has so much more depth and exciting options)...

I’m a caual player, and the army just doesn’t function in casual. I know some spam lists can work (ish), but they really don’t represent a fluffy sylvaneth army. 

This book is not fixed by points adjustments...we will have to wait for a new book sadly. 

 

Grimbok

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I agree some things feel very lazy especially the battalions, they are copy pasted and not worth taking, people are forcing them into list. They aren’t worth it at all. 

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I don’t think it’s a bad book, the only real issue I have is TLA being a level 1 caster.   This guys should be slinging spells all day.  Tree Revenants also feel ineffectual in combat combat.  Wish they didn’t die to a swift breeze and could dish out some hurt.  For 80 points they are only useful for zipping around the board to get opponents to keep a unit on objectives.  Winterleaf is the most forgiving to play and can dish out a lot of damage.  I am more attracted to Gnarlroot and feel like I’m still not able to dominate the magic phase like an all in spell caster Glade should be able to.  It’s close, but it’s just not there with TLA with one cast/unbind.  Battalions are useful to get that extra artifact though.  You’re pretty much locked in to giving Durthu Ghyrstike so he doesn’t whiff though. 

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How many sylvaneth armies do you see at tournaments? 

How many at your local club/store? 

 

Very few, for a once wildly popular army. It’s a bad book, both for casuals and competitive. 

 

 

Grimbok

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Not super popular, you see a couple but people are bringing top tier armies like HoS Skaven, flesheater, DoK 

sylvaneth are a third tier army right now with a win rate around 43% which is not good my other army DoK is about 60%. I have to work for wins with my trees while I feel like I walk all over my opponent’s with DoK.

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6 hours ago, Ching Wing said:


The bows are not great at all, if they change arch revanent to work in shooting phase they might be worth it or give them flat damage rate. The 4+ to hit is so unreliable in a squad of three so many time I would get maybe 2 wounds through and then with D3 damage  you can get only 2 wounds in. For 200 points NOT WORTH haha, the great swords with the update are going to be your best all around hunter with mortals on 6s plus exploding 6s with glade and extra wound roll. Plus I prefer the flat damage of a 2 than D3. Statistically they beat out Sycthes on any opponent other than their 3+ save units. 

Actually 3 threaten 5W heroes well.  The reach of the bows is fantastic and picking off 2-3 wounds in a turn will change your opponents game play.  If you have a turn of dice spiking (always happens once a game it seems) you can drop the hero then and there.  And they can camp an objective taking few wounds unless it is a serious threat.

While Scythes (2" reach trumps swords) are clearly the winner if you love the army and end up building up a lot of Hunters having 6 of each weapon option isn't terrible.

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8 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

Actually 3 threaten 5W heroes well.  The reach of the bows is fantastic and picking off 2-3 wounds in a turn will change your opponents game play.  If you have a turn of dice spiking (always happens once a game it seems) you can drop the hero then and there.  And they can camp an objective taking few wounds unless it is a serious threat.

While Scythes (2" reach trumps swords) are clearly the winner if you love the army and end up building up a lot of Hunters having 6 of each weapon option isn't terrible.

We can agree to disagree on the bows, in my opinion 200 points can be spent a whole better than 2-3 wounds a turn if your lucky, Ive had several rounds with 0  wounds. Plus with core rule change of look out sir good luck sniping. Before the rule change I would run scythes all day over swords, not with the mortal wounds on 6s now though plus wound roll, like I said they win out over scythes statistically every matchup except against 3+ saves. 

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When I first started sylvaneth I got multiple bows for my army I thought the same thing and how cool they were. I had a terrible success rate with them till I switched them out for scythes and now greatswords ftw I take a unit of 6 swords and summon in a unit of scythes with Alarielle summon

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Hey guys, I've been looking into getting some Sylvaneth, and I've drafted up a couple of lists. I'm not really sure how these will play competitively, but what do you guys think? I think the second list is probably better, but I feel they are both too reliant on magic and dryad summoning. I'll take any suggestions, comments or questions. Thank you!

List 1:

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Winterleaf
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Arch-Revenant (100)
- Artefact: Frozen Kernel
Branchwraith (80)
- Artefact: The Vesperal Gem
- Deepwood Spell: Throne of Vines
Branchwraith (80)
- Deepwood Spell: Throne of Vines
Branchwych (80)
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
Treelord Ancient (260)
- General
- Command Trait: My Heart Is Ice
- Artefact: Spiritsong Stave
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth

Battleline
30 x Dryads (270)
10 x Dryads (100)
10 x Dryads (100)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)

Units
6 x Kurnoth Hunters (400)
- Greatswords

Behemoths
Treelord (180)

Battalions
Forest Folk (140)
Household (100)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Gladewyrm (30)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 129

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Winterleaf
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

List 2:

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Winterleaf
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Arch-Revenant (100)
- Artefact: Frozen Kernel
Branchwraith (80)
- Deepwood Spell: Throne of Vines
Branchwraith (80)
- Deepwood Spell: Throne of Vines
Treelord Ancient (260)
- General
- Command Trait: My Heart Is Ice
- Artefact: Spiritsong Stave
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth

Battleline
20 x Dryads (200)
20 x Dryads (200)
10 x Dryads (100)

Units
6 x Kurnoth Hunters (400)
- Greatswords
6 x Kurnoth Hunters (400)
- Scythes

Battalions
Forest Folk (140)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Gladewyrm (30)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 137
 

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@ogarrah my preference is List 2. However (if you have him) I would suggest swapping the TLA for a SoDurthu. In Winterleaf he’s a beatstick and frankly the TLA isn’t doing too much for you. I’d also suggest regrowth and perhaps verduous harmony going on your two branchwraiths

cheers

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imo I wouldn’t take out the TLA he gives you a for sure Wyldwood first turn of the game so you can start teleporting to objectives, plus another spellcaster.  Durthu is good for damage output but 12 hunters is going to give you a lot of damage especially with the arch rev.

Our mobility using the woods is our strongest faction ability though and you have a for sure drop with TLA. You cant rely just on casting trees, you can miscast or they can unbind. Plus your list has 50 dryads who will definitely want to be in the trees. 

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Posted (edited)

Definitely appreciate folks' frustrations with the book.

With that said, I think the number of "3-2 viable" (i.e. competitive) builds is quite extensive. 

Dreadwood has always stood out because of its CA and the incredible opportunities it opens up; but if you don't go Dreadwood...if your mobility, board control, capacity to pressure, etc. is going to be more reliant on Wyldwoods, then a few things stand out from personal testing, all of which reflect a bias that Sylvaneth is still best suited toward objective play, controlling space, and being selective about when you look to do damage.

1. While not everyone agrees, I tend to think a TLA is almost a must-have in non-Dreadwood builds. While it's unfortunate it isn't 2-cast/unbind, the fact that it (essentially) guarantees you will have a second Wyldwood on the table, wholly within 18" of it — that fact stabilizes your capacity to play the army/scenario.

2. 1x5/2x5 Tree-Revs continue to have an important place in Sylvaneth lists, especially in objective play, screening at key moments, and keeping opponents' honest.

3. At least 1x30 Dryads also remain invaluable for screening/zoning, staying near an objective and wholly within 6" of your Places of Power pre-deploy Wyldwood (so that they auto-pass battleshock), or applying pressure up-field. When the book came out last year, I didn't fully appreciate the ongoing value of a big unit of Dryads. While it's possible that you could do well with, e.g., a Harvestboon Monster Mash build with multiple Spirit of Durthu's, I think 1x30 Dryads reflects a staple of playing to the strengths of Sylvaneth.

4. Spellportal provides a degree of flexibility, mobility, and opponent-pressure that otherwise isn't possible when a Wyldwood — via Verdant — is limited to wholly within 24" (or even 30" with a Balewind). Casting Verdant through Spellportal enables, e.g., placing a Wyldwood deep in opponent territory, without over-exposing your caster (often a Branchwraith in the backfield, out of harm's way, with Spiritsong Stave + Throne of Vines). Spellportal makes it difficult for opponents to zone out Wyldwood-placement space. It increases the pressure/threat that can be applied, in addition to the 1x5/2x5 Tree-Revs.

Of course, right now, a number of top-table builds are excellent at shutting down magic, which affects Wyldwood generation (and further elevates the importance of a TLA), but that's part of the greater risk faced when running non-Dreadwood.

Edited by scrubyandwells
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I agree with the Ancient is very important in non dreadwood. He is still bad, but you will need the wyldwood. In this casting meta, getting off spells i sylvaneth is extremely difficult. Maybe a backline caster turn one spiteswarm, hope for the best. Otherwise good luck with magic! Sylvaneth are really not good at casting, which is odd...

Yes, one og two groups of tree revenants are really good at threatening late game to keep your opponant honest. I just hate that these elite, pricy, great models are reduced to standing at the back, waiting to teleport, but not really doing anything. Not exactly very soldiery...

I don’t know about dryads though. 270 for 30 is kind of cheap. Depends on the board really and your wyldwood production. The boards I play have a great deal of terrain, so very limited opportunity for wyldwoods, but when I watch battle reports many boards seem empty with lots of space for the wyldwoods. Maybe they set up terrain to make room for some woods, but then the premise for the army is very different from rules as written... it really seems like you have to ask your opponant permission to play with wyldwoods these days, and I hate that. It should never be a thing, let alone your main allegiance ability...

 

I see dreadwood as the only playable option these days. Drop one wood in your deployment, don’t waste time and resources on generating more woods and focus on actually killing the enemy. Go cheap on spellcasting, no healing etc. Then you can play without all the problems generated by the wyldwoods. 

 

Grimbok

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Also, how come our spells are so bad? It’s another kind of level of bad. ToV is good because of branchwraith and spiteswarm hive, but you need a double caster, which we only have in Alarielle. Regrowth is not good, healing is so bad. I often find it hard to cast, or the big models are already dead. The Dwellers below...really GW? Casting value 7? Just insane...deadly harvest...what? Harmony....few casts in army, no bonus to cast, casting value 7. Gnarlroot on big group of hunters? Otherwise...no. Treesong...ehhh....

But we a few good command traits and relics, that we really can’t use in glades...doh. You are really forced in to a battalion just to take spiritson stave, to cast the critical spite swarm og dryad summons...it’s forced design just to compete. 

Grimbok

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We really need to lay down  that “the book is mostly good” attitude at get the message to GW that we need a new book. Both casual and tournament sylvanth  is hurting bad...

 

Grimbok

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On 5/31/2020 at 3:04 PM, Ching Wing said:

We can agree to disagree on the bows, in my opinion 200 points can be spent a whole better than 2-3 wounds a turn if your lucky, Ive had several rounds with 0  wounds. Plus with core rule change of look out sir good luck sniping. Before the rule change I would run scythes all day over swords, not with the mortal wounds on 6s now though plus wound roll, like I said they win out over scythes statistically every matchup except against 3+ saves. 

Bows are swingy.  That's true.  But they aren't bad.  I like they made a separate scroll so that they can drop the points of bows.  

6 Sycthes will always do more damage than 3 swords.  Reach and Rend win this argument (and have always).  If you don't like that comment, you don't see swords in lists like you do scythes.  Feel free to keep arguing but 5 years of Sylvaneth lists show even the old stalwarts of Swords eventually swung over (pun intended).  This argument never goes away cause there is always one person making it without trying Scythes and everyone else comes to the conclusion of Scythes.

9 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

Dreadwood has always stood out because of its CA 

I wish there was a better battalion so Dryad players didn't have to take 3 units.  You kinda want 30 then spam the rest.  It took a while but yeah it's got such a strong ability there as it doesn't rely on woods.

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36 minutes ago, Popisdead said:6 Sycthes will always do more damage than 3 swords.  Reach and Rend win this argument (and have always).  If you don't like that comment, you don't see swords in lists like you do scythes.  Feel free to keep arguing but 5 years of Sylvaneth lists show even the old stalwarts of Swords eventually swung over (pun intended).  This argument never goes away cause there is always one person making it without trying Scythes and everyone else comes to the conclusion of Scythes.

 

They always have won the argument in the past, the place you gotta stop living in ;)  also you used the words always win over swords, not true, horde army will take more damage from the swords while heavy armored enemies Scythes will win. Go back and do the statistics, I’m not being biased  just looking at rolling statistics. You’re free to ignore it though if you want :) 

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http://40k.ghostlords.com/dice/aos.html
 

Here is the website you can run the numbers for yourself :)

Swords win out unless it is 3+ saves you’re going against, you get the mortal wounds on 6s plus if youre running winter glade you get more dice to try and roll 6s  with swords. 
 
If you disagree that’s fine I just want you to have all the information. You should use the website :) 

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@Grimbok I would not think they would release a new book within 24months of the current one - which is why I’d expect an errata on wyldwoods and a couple glades  or evening new glades in the GHB 20

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A wyldwood errata in GHB would go a long way... haven’t thought about that. GHB would be  a good place to fix them...

 

 

Grimbok

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