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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

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Too obvious. It’s far more likely to be a small growth on the back of a larger creature - as with mushrooms on trolls.

It looks like an extreme closeup of something very small, and GW would never post a clear picture of a tree if it was in any way tree-based. 

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@Landohammer great work with the list! Too bad against death. I always find them a pain to deal with also. 
Why did you choose Winterleaf over other Glades? And how did it benefit you throughout the day?

What are Morrsar Guard like with Syls? And how did you use them? They’re an interesting inclusion 

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1 hour ago, Lanoss said:

@Landohammer great work with the list! Too bad against death. I always find them a pain to deal with also. 
Why did you choose Winterleaf over other Glades? And how did it benefit you throughout the day?

What are Morrsar Guard like with Syls? And how did you use them? They’re an interesting inclusion 

I usually flip back and forth between Winterleaf and Dreadwood. Both are excellent. I went with Winterleaf in this case because I know there were a lot of combat heavy armies in the meta.

Winterleaf is really good for making your units reliable in combat. It can help mitigate bad rolls. Its particularly effective on Kurnoth Hunters with greatswords, since every 6 is a potential 5 damage.  Also the Frozen Kernel was absolutely pivotal. 

The Morrsar Guard performed fine, but I mostly used them defensively and as a distraction.  The real value was their shock combined with their reasonable survivability. Ideally you want to swing with them first, but several times I pushed them into a scary behemoth, shocked them down a few brackets, and then activated a different combat trusting that the eels could probably survive until their turn. 

They are fast, hit hard, and survive pretty well, so its hard to pass them up. However I lost quite a few to failed bravery tests. (only bravery 6 :( ) 

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11 hours ago, Landohammer said:

I usually flip back and forth between Winterleaf and Dreadwood. Both are excellent. I went with Winterleaf in this case because I know there were a lot of combat heavy armies in the meta.

Winterleaf is really good for making your units reliable in combat. It can help mitigate bad rolls. Its particularly effective on Kurnoth Hunters with greatswords, since every 6 is a potential 5 damage.  Also the Frozen Kernel was absolutely pivotal. 

The Morrsar Guard performed fine, but I mostly used them defensively and as a distraction.  The real value was their shock combined with their reasonable survivability. Ideally you want to swing with them first, but several times I pushed them into a scary behemoth, shocked them down a few brackets, and then activated a different combat trusting that the eels could probably survive until their turn. 

They are fast, hit hard, and survive pretty well, so its hard to pass them up. However I lost quite a few to failed bravery tests. (only bravery 6 :( ) 

I haven't tried Dreadwood yet, but oh boy does Winterleaf hit strong with the Frozen Kernel. Exploding 6 on all army is always a very good bonus. Even the command ability has its use sometimes.

Dreadwood i guess makes more sense if the objectives are very far apart :)

Edited by Anca

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On 12/2/2019 at 6:27 PM, Landohammer said:

Game 3 vs Ironjawz; Again screening wins games. I screened with Spites,

Recently played a game against Ironjawz.

6 Scythe Kurnoths with kernel easily took out Gordrakk (not all of them were in range either). Sadly he had already taken out Drycha. But overall, I was out ahead in that fight.

I found my Spite screens not providing much defence at all to orky battleline. 31 attacks from 10 Spites would mostly vanish to rend, then get effectively halved again due to 2 wounds per ork. Then when defending, the spites would just melt away. But, if they hold up for at least one turn in combat then they've done their job of diverting the enemy, right? Still trying to figure out how big my screens really need to be to be effective. And trying to find reasons to drop my block of 30 Dryads.

My game was Knife to the Heart. I was on the upper hand, but he cleared away enough chaff from around the objective to be able to teleport in another unit 9" away, charge the remaining models and instant win. Never like that battleplan.

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3 hours ago, Anca said:

I haven't tried Dreadwood yet, but oh boy does Winterleaf hit strong with the Frozen Kernel. Exploding 6 on all army is always a very good bonus. Even the command ability has its use sometimes.

Dreadwood i guess makes more sense if the objectives are very far apart :)

IMHO Dreadwood needs Spiteswarm Hive or Cogs and casters who can reliably get them off. So Dreadwood lists require a bit more investment. Winterleaf can be slapped on any list. 

29 minutes ago, a74xhx said:

Recently played a game against Ironjawz.

6 Scythe Kurnoths with kernel easily took out Gordrakk (not all of them were in range either). Sadly he had already taken out Drycha. But overall, I was out ahead in that fight.

I found my Spite screens not providing much defence at all to orky battleline. 31 attacks from 10 Spites would mostly vanish to rend, then get effectively halved again due to 2 wounds per ork. Then when defending, the spites would just melt away. But, if they hold up for at least one turn in combat then they've done their job of diverting the enemy, right? Still trying to figure out how big my screens really need to be to be effective. And trying to find reasons to drop my block of 30 Dryads.

My game was Knife to the Heart. I was on the upper hand, but he cleared away enough chaff from around the objective to be able to teleport in another unit 9" away, charge the remaining models and instant win. Never like that battleplan.

Wow, good to know that Scythe Hunters brought down Gordrakk! However I think vanilla Mawcrushas (and similar units like Stardrakes) are a bit more problematic since they get access to artefacts and traits. 2+ armor saves are a big problem for our army.

Yea the only Ironjaw units that Spites can meaningfully damage are the Gore gruntas, and thats mostly because of their leadership shenanigans. When I screen with Spites, I always assume I will lose every single one of them. 

One trick I like to use is to to create a single file screen that leads into our wyldwood, and pull casualties from those farthest out. So assuming your wyldwood is your place of power, and you take enough casualties, you may end up wholly within the battleshock immunity bubble. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

IMHO Dreadwood needs Spiteswarm Hive or Cogs and casters who can reliably get them off. So Dreadwood lists require a bit more investment. Winterleaf can be slapped on any list. 

Hihve and cogs are here to garantee the charge right?

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Talking about battleshock shenanigans: Am I correct in saying that all battleshock tests happen at exactly the same time? So when taking into account units that effect the bravery roll on other units (spites, outcasts etc), the units just have to be alive and in range at the start of the battleshock phase. I also don't include any models that died during melee, shooting etc.

 

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2 hours ago, Anca said:

Hihve and cogs are here to garantee the charge right?

Yep! The Teleport loses some of its value if you can't reliably get a charge off afterwards. If you are just teleporting on to objectives without the intent to charge then Tree Revenants can do the job without the need for Dreadwood.

Cogs and Hive are both 7 to cast though, so Dreadwood  benefits greatly from a multi-caster. I usually cast throne and then Hive to help increase the chances that it goes off. 

2 hours ago, a74xhx said:

Talking about battleshock shenanigans: Am I correct in saying that all battleshock tests happen at exactly the same time? So when taking into account units that effect the bravery roll on other units (spites, outcasts etc), the units just have to be alive and in range at the start of the battleshock phase. I also don't include any models that died during melee, shooting etc.

 

Correct!

I think most players alternate battleshock tests just out of habit, but yes it all occurs simultaneously. So that sole surviving Spite Revenant testing at -19 leadership will still get to use his debuff provided he is still in range. 

Sometimes if my Kurnoth or characters are fighting elites, I will send any surviving units of spites into the combat as well. Most opponents aren't willing to waste attacks on them and end up losing several models to morale (or are forced to burn CP to save them). Outcast Spite revenants are particularly brutal at this. 

I actually caused 2 Gore Gruntas to flee from combat with 6 spites. Ouch! 

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I posted this over on the FB group, but wanted to see what people here thought. 

I'm looking to get into collecting Sylvaneth and was drawn by the Drycha model. How does this look for a first purchase list / learning list? I'm also interested in general tips or what the strengths/weakness of the list and Sylvaneth as a whole might be as a new player. 

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Dreadwood
Drycha Hamadreth (320)
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
Treelord Ancient (300)
- General
- Trait: Paragon of Terror
- Artefact: Jewel of Withering
- Deepwood Spell: Treesong
Branchwraith (80)
- Deepwood Spell: Verdurous Harmony
10 x Spite-Revenants (120)
10 x Spite-Revenants (120)
5 x Spite-Revenants (60)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 52

Edited by ChreeMills

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21 hours ago, a74xhx said:

Talking about battleshock shenanigans: Am I correct in saying that all battleshock tests happen at exactly the same time? So when taking into account units that effect the bravery roll on other units (spites, outcasts etc), the units just have to be alive and in range at the start of the battleshock phase. I also don't include any models that died during melee, shooting etc.

 

In the core rules it says the player whose turn it is tests first.

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Anyone had a success with KH with Bows? I'm running 21 KH list (6 Syths, 6 Bows, 9 Swords), and Swords consistently do not perform. I love the models and their shooting range, but its 400 points that dont do lots of damage.... I could convert them either to swords or syths.... Whats ur experience? 

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4 hours ago, Shmaravoz said:

Anyone had a success with KH with Bows? I'm running 21 KH list (6 Syths, 6 Bows, 9 Swords), and Swords consistently do not perform. I love the models and their shooting range, but its 400 points that dont do lots of damage.... I could convert them either to swords or syths.... Whats ur experience? 

I'm doing the exact same thing as you. The bows just dont do the damage. Even giving them reroll all to-hit, they just never seem to push through enough damage.

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5 hours ago, Shmaravoz said:

Anyone had a success with KH with Bows? I'm running 21 KH list (6 Syths, 6 Bows, 9 Swords), and Swords consistently do not perform. I love the models and their shooting range, but its 400 points that dont do lots of damage.... I could convert them either to swords or syths.... Whats ur experience? 

I recently won a small doubles tournament running 9 Bows (3x3x3) and partnered with Beastclaw Raiders.  Heartwood Glade so my Branchwraith had the artefact granting re-rolls.  The bows shot a Bloodthirster and 1 Bloodcrusher off the board on turn 1.  We won that game handily.  I dropped a Celestial Hurricanum down to 2 wounds (only 7/9 shot, bad deployment on my part, still fairly new) but it stopped all his magic shenanigans early one and won that game handily because of it.

Bows seem to be the least liked of the three variants but honestly, they are my favorites.  They can take down big threats (or knock them down a few pegs), snipe small heroes, and can still hold objectives.  I charged a unit of 3 Bows into melee combat and ended up controlling an objective because of that.  Five wounds each with a 4+ save (possibly re-rolling) is still huge even if they aren't killing a ton.  

Bows have an effective 35" threat range on turn 1 if you don't put them into reserves.  If you do put them into reserves,  you can have a much larger range.  Don't count the bows out just yet.  I ran two units of 3 in my 2000pt list and between those two units and Drycha, I took out a Keeper and Shalaxi pretty easily and Drycha didn't die.  

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15 minutes ago, Pennydude said:

I recently won a small doubles tournament running 9 Bows (3x3x3) and partnered with Beastclaw Raiders.  Heartwood Glade so my Branchwraith had the artefact granting re-rolls.  The bows shot a Bloodthirster and 1 Bloodcrusher off the board on turn 1.  We won that game handily.  I dropped a Celestial Hurricanum down to 2 wounds (only 7/9 shot, bad deployment on my part, still fairly new) but it stopped all his magic shenanigans early one and won that game handily because of it.

Bows seem to be the least liked of the three variants but honestly, they are my favorites.  They can take down big threats (or knock them down a few pegs), snipe small heroes, and can still hold objectives.  I charged a unit of 3 Bows into melee combat and ended up controlling an objective because of that.  Five wounds each with a 4+ save (possibly re-rolling) is still huge even if they aren't killing a ton.  

Congrats on your win. Not to dismiss your example, but for every example like this, we have the opposite. I ran nearly the same list in a doubles event with ironjawz, and I spent every game futilely shooting at heroes to see only a couple of wounds go through. With average dice and the rerolls, 600 points of bow hunters doesnt kill a bloodthirster, a 270 point model. But that is misleading, because the disparity is even worse than that. To get those numbers close, you have to have the rerolls through heartwood. That means a hero is babysitting this unit. Furthermore, you are taking a glade that only helps this unit to be more accurate with their shooting. So the rest of your army suffers not getting benefits that they may get if you took another glade. You have to invest so heavily into bows to make them work that it isn't worth it in my opinion.

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1 minute ago, Graywater said:

Congrats on your win. Not to dismiss your example, but for every example like this, we have the opposite. I ran nearly the same list in a doubles event with ironjawz, and I spent every game futilely shooting at heroes to see only a couple of wounds go through. With average dice and the rerolls, 600 points of bow hunters doesnt kill a bloodthirster, a 270 point model. But that is misleading, because the disparity is even worse than that. To get those numbers close, you have to have the rerolls through heartwood. That means a hero is babysitting this unit. Furthermore, you are taking a glade that only helps this unit to be more accurate with their shooting. So the rest of your army suffers not getting benefits that they may get if you took another glade. You have to invest so heavily into bows to make them work that it isn't worth it in my opinion.

I can 100% see your point and you are not wrong.  It's a lot of investment to make it work and like I said, it worked in doubles perfectly at 1000pts (9 Bows, B-Wraith, 20 Dryads, 5 TR, Balewind).  I personally like them because they have the flexibility to assist other ground units across the board but at a cost of not having more on the front line.  My list had a specific purpose and that was to support my BCR partner and it couldn't have worked any better than it did.  Bows happened to be the first kit I built so I'm quite partial to them.  

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If the drop Bows points in the December's FAQ to 160 or less then I see the point keeping them  otherwise I am switching to swords... Which is painful, as I really enjoy the concept of bows. I find I am losing games as 600 points of my army does not perform the way it should. Even when I target heroes, with "Look out Sir" its 5 to hit.... I run Winterleaf glade and Swords are my preferred option. They are pretty consistent and usually dont fail...

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I occasionally run bows. The trick is that they generally aren’t supposed to do big damage - if you expect them to mirror the output of their melee cousins then you’ll be disappointed. 

Bow hunters are good for two things, and maybe a third if forced. 

1) You have the range to put some damage on targets early. Don’t waste it on small heroes surrounded by other units, but seriously consider the value of taking a behemoth down a damage tier or two before it gets a chance to engage. 

2) Clean up duty ahead of charging. There is nothing more frustrating than a cheap chaff unit in your charge lane. Bow hunters are pretty good at clearing space for your heavier hitters to get stuck in. 

3) If forced, bow hunters are a surprisingly good tarpit for a 3-man unit. I wouldn’t set out to use them like that, but if you are charged By something trying to limit their targets, or you get the opportunity to charge yourself into something that wants to stay mobile, then they can stick around long enough to protect something squishier. Just don’t expect them to do any damage in combat - they are less effective than half a unit of Dryads in offence. 

Anyone seeing the “Kurnoth Hunter” label and expecting ranged damage on par with scythes or swords hasn’t thought carefully enough about why they won’t get that at 30” range. 

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On 12/7/2019 at 10:18 PM, Pennydude said:

I recently won a small doubles tournament running 9 Bows (3x3x3) and partnered with Beastclaw Raiders.  Heartwood Glade so my Branchwraith had the artefact granting re-rolls.  The bows shot a Bloodthirster and 1 Bloodcrusher off the board on turn 1.  We won that game handily.  I dropped a Celestial Hurricanum down to 2 wounds (only 7/9 shot, bad deployment on my part, still fairly new) but it stopped all his magic shenanigans early one and won that game handily because of it.

Bows seem to be the least liked of the three variants but honestly, they are my favorites.  They can take down big threats (or knock them down a few pegs), snipe small heroes, and can still hold objectives.  I charged a unit of 3 Bows into melee combat and ended up controlling an objective because of that.  Five wounds each with a 4+ save (possibly re-rolling) is still huge even if they aren't killing a ton.  

Bows have an effective 35" threat range on turn 1 if you don't put them into reserves.  If you do put them into reserves,  you can have a much larger range.  Don't count the bows out just yet.  I ran two units of 3 in my 2000pt list and between those two units and Drycha, I took out a Keeper and Shalaxi pretty easily and Drycha didn't die.  

I love your list. Actually seeing your list a while back actually caused me to reassess the Hunters with Bows altogether! I actually impulse bought some off ebay that day!

However as @Graywater said, the investment to get those Hunters to perform was pretty huge. Thats a lot of points that needs to stay together and I am curious how it would do outside of a team-based event. (You should run it in a singles event and let us know!!)

16 hours ago, Trevelyan said:

I occasionally run bows. The trick is that they generally aren’t supposed to do big damage - if you expect them to mirror the output of their melee cousins then you’ll be disappointed. 

Bow hunters are good for two things, and maybe a third if forced. 

1) You have the range to put some damage on targets early. Don’t waste it on small heroes surrounded by other units, but seriously consider the value of taking a behemoth down a damage tier or two before it gets a chance to engage. 

2) Clean up duty ahead of charging. There is nothing more frustrating than a cheap chaff unit in your charge lane. Bow hunters are pretty good at clearing space for your heavier hitters to get stuck in. 

3) If forced, bow hunters are a surprisingly good tarpit for a 3-man unit. I wouldn’t set out to use them like that, but if you are charged By something trying to limit their targets, or you get the opportunity to charge yourself into something that wants to stay mobile, then they can stick around long enough to protect something squishier. Just don’t expect them to do any damage in combat - they are less effective than half a unit of Dryads in offence. 

Anyone seeing the “Kurnoth Hunter” label and expecting ranged damage on par with scythes or swords hasn’t thought carefully enough about why they won’t get that at 30” range. 

I don't disagree, but I think "good" is relative here. They can shoot in a book with very limited access to shooting, so that makes them useful. However our allies just run circles around them. We have access to some pretty solid shooters such as Celestar Ballistas, Sisters of the Watch, and the Wanderer characters. All of which are a lot more efficient at the role.

Hunters are just paying too many taxes on their melee-based abilities that don't benefit them at their job. 

 

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1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

I don't disagree, but I think "good" is relative here. They can shoot in a book with very limited access to shooting, so that makes them useful. However our allies just run circles around them. We have access to some pretty solid shooters such as Celestar Ballistas, Sisters of the Watch, and the Wanderer characters. All of which are a lot more efficient at the role.

Hunters are just paying too many taxes on their melee-based abilities that don't benefit them at their job. 

 

Exactly this. Even if we are giving the benefits of the heartwood reroll all hits artifact, AND not taking into account the cost of running that model or the much harder to place cost of not running a glade that gives army wide benefits, that unit of bowhunters is putting out about 5 damage to a 5+ save unit. Sure the range is a big deal, but most armies are currently playing the melee game, which means they're going to be coming across the board, usually quite fast. You're paying a lot for a 30 inch range, and it doesnt feel great when the distance between yourself and the enemy is closed in a turn. Sure, the hunters are relatively hard to shift, but you dont typically want your shooting unit in melee. This is especially true when it's usually the enemy choosing that engagement, and so now you're stuck shooting a unit your opponent wants you to, instead of one you want to. They aren't bad, but sylvaneth isnt a strong enough faction to take a bunch of average at best units.

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Comparing to the new big models, anyone else hoping that Alarielle gets a small point reduction in the upcoming points review (maybe down to 620 points)?  It seems sad that at essentially 460 points (subtracting the summon) she only has the beetle attack as an actual threatening attack, and defense is meh. She is costed high for being a wizard when she only has one okayish spell, and these days there are so many things that negate magic.

What point value do you think would make Alarielle relevant without overdoing it?  Obviously due to her heal if she was too low she would always be a must-take...

Edited by Zanzou
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So for the most part I think Alarielle is at least in the ballpark of a good cost. GW tends to price wizards at around 90pts+ per cast. So that is 270pts right off the top. So that puts the beatle at around 190pts which is really good for a flying behemoth.

Alarielle only starts to look bad when you compare her to the insanely undercosted behemoths like Keepers of Secrets. If you only compare her to tier B and C stuff then she is relatively reasonable.

Personally I wish they would remove her summon ability and make her 460pts. Maybe make her "soul pod" ability something like a deepstrike.  That way she wouldn't dictate so much of our lists. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

So for the most part I think Alarielle is at least in the ballpark of a good cost. GW tends to price wizards at around 90pts+ per cast. So that is 270pts right off the top. So that puts the beatle at around 190pts which is really good for a flying behemoth.

Alarielle only starts to look bad when you compare her to the insanely undercosted behemoths like Keepers of Secrets. If you only compare her to tier B and C stuff then she is relatively reasonable.

Personally I wish they would remove her summon ability and make her 460pts. Maybe make her "soul pod" ability something like a deepstrike.  That way she wouldn't dictate so much of our lists. 

 

 

I think she could probably still be 40-60 pts cheaper and still be a strong but not OP choice.

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She needs to be able to resurrect models passively to be worth her cost imo. D3 dryads and revenants, and 1 Hunter. 
I’d take her every game. 

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On 12/8/2019 at 6:06 AM, Shmaravoz said:

Anyone had a success with KH with Bows? I'm running 21 KH list (6 Syths, 6 Bows, 9 Swords), and Swords consistently do not perform. I love the models and their shooting range, but its 400 points that dont do lots of damage.... I could convert them either to swords or syths.... Whats ur experience? 

Park an Arch-Revenant next to your bow units to give them rerolls of 1. Rerolls make them much more reliable, even if they are hitting on 4s. If you run 6 bows, you can flank Archie with two groups of 3 and go to town on anything that you need to. Archie's command ability works with any Kurnoth on the field, so in such a list you really, really should be using one, or even two!

...I really hope they offer a clam-pack of the hero, it really makes Kurnoth lists much more potent.

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