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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

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Phew! Finally caught up again. I take a break for a few weeks (months?!!) and I guess I missed  a whole lot. 

Very exciting times for our favorite tree people. Been great seeing you all discuss and breakdown the new book. Really seems to shaken things up. Sprites being in so lists really tickles me since they previously were only taken to fill the Dreadwood battalion. 

I will hopefully start contributing something useful as I am in the middle of an escalation campaign at the moment run in my local store - up to 1500 this week. 

 

Any how just wanted to say thanks for all the awesome discussion folks!

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14 hours ago, Trevelyan said:

Worth noting that they can both have it, and even both benefit from it simultaneously. They just can’t both cast it on the same turn.  

But you can have the Branchwraith cast it T1 and then stay put churning out Dryads on subsequent turns with a +2 bonus as long as she doesn’t move. Meanwhile Alarielle uses the first of her three spells on turns 2-5 to cast Throne, then casts two more spells with the +2 bonus. 

Very true, but that means that unless you take a third wizard, you give up taking the two heal spells which are the the true power spells in the lore IMHO.  Probably better to just straight up attempt to cast the summon 3 times. The net result is the same: 2 summons. But with my version, Alarielle can do whatever she wants on turn 1. (I like to cast Throne plus Glade Wyrm early on)

Its tempting to invest a lot into Branchwraiths: Cogs, Vortex, Gem (which requires a battalion tax usually), Gnarlroot, Thrones, etc. But IMHO this can become a bit of a trap. The whole point of summoning is to get units for free. If you find yourself making sacrifices for 10 Dryads, you may want to consider just taking more Dryads lol.

I personally only use the Branchwraith in 1000pts games. She is an absolute must-have at that point level. At 2000pts the 10 man units of dryads just end up being speed bumps or objective campers.

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4 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Very true, but that means that unless you take a third wizard, you give up taking the two heal spells which are the the true power spells in the lore IMHO.  Probably better to just straight up attempt to cast the summon 3 times. The net result is the same: 2 summons.

I definitely agree on the healing spells. Although I usually find that having any healing spell on a Branchwraith is a waste as she is very rarely in range and LoS of things that need healing. Alarielle almost certainly is (flying helps), so I’m often inclined to give her one of the healing spells unless there is a clearly better option (such as two TLAs with artefacts in gnarlroot). 

The gain from casting Throne probably doesn’t offset the cost of missing a summon by itself. In the past (old Battletome) I’ve played lists with two wraiths, one with Thrones and the other on wyldwood duty. Turn 1 the wyldwood wraith summons Dryads while the throne wraith gets her throne on (using the acorn and the TLA to get woods out) then they swap. That’s gave me a dedicated wood summoning caster that benefitted from being hidden so harder to destroy.

New Battletome makes that less valid as a choice since anyone can summon Wyldwoods and the range is reduced. My solo wraiths mostly have Thrones because it’s about the only other spell they might cast, even though they mostly just summon. 

4 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Its tempting to invest a lot into Branchwraiths: Cogs, Vortex, Gem (which requires a battalion tax usually), Gnarlroot, Thrones, etc. But IMHO this can become a bit of a trap. The whole point of summoning is to get units for free. If you find yourself making sacrifices for 10 Dryads, you may want to consider just taking more Dryads lol.

It’s never really tempting to put that much effort into Dryad summoning. For a start, the Vesperal Gem doesn’t do anything for her summoning. 

I have had her benefit from Cogs in the past, but only ever as a side effect of no longer needing the movement buff. Once you’re engaged you might as well switch the spell.  

4 hours ago, Landohammer said:

I personally only use the Branchwraith in 1000pts games. She is an absolute must-have at that point level. At 2000pts the 10 man units of dryads just end up being speed bumps or objective campers.

I still find value in speed bumps and objective campers at 2000 points. 100 points that you don’t spend on Dryads immediately will get you an arch-revenant. And while the relative value of 10 Dryads in a 2000 point list is half that in a 1000 point list, so is the relative cost of the Branchwraith to summon them.

A single successful summons earns the points back, more is just gravy. Worst case scenario, I’ve tempted opponents into unbundling her summons early so later, more strategically important spells can go off safely (and vice verse). 

There are lists where I’m tempted to drop the wraith, but she’s usually at the top of the list of things to add back if the points are available. 

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@Craze I like the list! Personally, I’d load Durthu with the greenwood gladius to fish for more of those exploding Winterleaf hits - but totally understand why you went with Gryhrstrike lol

Let us know how you fair 

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14 hours ago, Craze said:

I am right now trying to find out what list suits my playstyle best.

First the list I am looking at right now for reference:

 

Glade:  Winterleaf

Realm: Ghyran

Heroes:

Spirit of Durthu (General) - My Heart is Ice - Ghyrstrike --- 340

Arch Revenant - Frozen Kernel --- 100

Treelord Ancient - Verdurous Harmony --- 300

Drycha Hamadreth - Regrowth --- 320

Branchwraith - Throne of Vines ---80

Battleline:

Spite Revenants x20 --- 200

Spite Revenants x5 --- 60

Spite Revenants x5 --- 60

Other:

Kurnoth Hunters x6 - Swords/Scythes --- 400

Batallions:

Outcasts --- 90

Endless Spells:

Spiteswarm Hive --- 50

 

This is 2k Points on the spot.

Definetly discussable is the loadout of Hunters, especially if I play 2x3 Swords or 1x6 Scythes and if the Spiteswarm Hive is worth the 5 Points, or if some other spell would be better.

 

From my first impressions, we are still able to pack a serious punch between Durthu, melee Hunters, S-Revs and the new Drycha, especially when combined with the Winterleaf glade.

My main concern is right now durabilty against other offensive lists.  I am torn as none of the options I see seems really satisfying:

- Changing S-Revs for Dryads disables Outcast batallion, which is the only one that seems to fit in my list.

- Gnarlroot seems really decent with the casting buffs, combined with Vesperal Gem to push through our important spells. But the question is, if it sacrifices to much of the raw killing power that comes from exploding 6s.

- Not defensive in general, but a more hit & run playstyle that could be achieved by using Harvestboon, helping Durthu to dart in and out of fights, 

 

What kind of options/ideas do you see to have a more balanced list?

 

Thanks!

I just put this list into Azyr and you're 10 points over 😥 The Outcast batallion is 100pts not 90pts.  Would have to drop Spiteswarm for something else - Gladewyrm maybe?  Little more sustain but you're losing the +3 to charge.

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59 minutes ago, Predien said:

I just put this list into Azyr and you're 10 points over 😥 The Outcast batallion is 100pts not 90pts.  Would have to drop Spiteswarm for something else - Gladewyrm maybe?  Little more sustain but you're losing the +3 to charge.

I use the exact same list but with a Branchwych instead of the Arch Rev bringing the total down to 1990.

 

However I use dreadwood glade to get Durthu, Drycha and the large spite unit into my opponent, buffed with +3 charge in turn 1. 

Edited by Bobbin484
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Is there a clear(er) idea of which glades are good for what purposes? I started  collecting Sylvaneth pre-2.0 and at the time wanted to go for Gnarlroot spell-spam (creative, I know). Have 1 SC box (treelord ancient built), a branchwraith,  1 unit of greatbow kurnoth hunters, and 1 unit of tree-revenants. Was building a Gnarlroot household. Nothing painted yet. Now that things are (hopefully) better balanced, what are some must-haves and some good/fun glades?

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I'm under the impression, that at the moment we still do not really have an idea about what is really strong and what is weak. I guess Winterleaf and Harvestboon are always good, Gnarlroot is a more defensive and spell-focused variant. 
In terms of battleline, Spite-Revs are now a solid choice as well, and tree revs teleportation was buffed. Alarielle isn't a must-include anymore, and Drychas damage output was buffed immensely. 

So, atm you probably want to go for one of the above glades, get a outcast or forest folk batallion, maybe free spirits (?), and that should be a solid baseline. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

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9 hours ago, Predien said:

I just put this list into Azyr and you're 10 points over 😥 The Outcast batallion is 100pts not 90pts.  Would have to drop Spiteswarm for something else - Gladewyrm maybe?  Little more sustain but you're losing the +3 to charge.

Very strange, in my Azyr it shows with 90 points, even after updating...but you are right of course, it is 100 now.

For the Greenwood Gladius vs. Ghyrstrike I think I will make a spreadsheet to see what gives the best average output.

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Hi all,

I have a question me and some friends are confused about on Sylvaneth. What is your atke on the following:

In the most recent Designers Comments Q&A for Sylvaneth, the folling QA can be found:

Q: Does an Awakened Wyldwood that is set up during a battle follow the same restrictions as faction terrain that is set up before the battle begins in the General’s Handbook 2019?
A: No. The rules in the General’s Handbook 2019 for setting up faction terrain only apply to faction terrain that is set up before the battle begins. For an Awakened Wyldwood that is set up during a battle, follow the restrictions for setting up that Awakened Wyldwood as they appear in the ability you are using.
 

It refers to a rule in the GHB19. However, that very rule has been errata'd only a couple of weeks ago with this:

Page 56 – Pitched Battles, Faction Terrain Change the first and second paragraphs to: ‘Sometimes the allegiance abilities for an army will allow it to include one or more terrain features, or a warscroll will allow you to set up one or more terrain features once the battle has begun. These are set up in addition to the Pitched Battle terrain features the player must set up as described above. In a Pitched Battle, faction terrain must be set up more than 3" from any other terrain features and more than 1" from any objectives, in addition to any other restrictions that apply to it. Sometimes this will make it impossible for a faction terrain piece to be set up; in this case, it is not used.’

How do we use these rules together in a pitched battle?

Thanks!

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The errata changes the rule in the GHB, the Commentary then tells you not to use that for the woods during the battle.  So you just deploy them as the rules on their warscroll etc tell you.

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The pre set up rules for the pre set up woods. And for all other woods only the restrictions on the warscrolls.

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1 hour ago, Strijkijzer said:

How do we use these rules together in a pitched battle?

Thanks!

That’s the very point of the FAQ update - it clarifies that you use the GHB during setup only and Wyldwoods placed during play ignore the GHB and follow the rules for the ability used to place them. 

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1 hour ago, Trevelyan said:

That’s the very point of the FAQ update - it clarifies that you use the GHB during setup only and Wyldwoods placed during play ignore the GHB and follow the rules for the ability used to place them. 

Our problem is that the answer says that the GHB states something (namely that those rules dont apply during battle), which it doesnt state anymore (since the erata the rules do apply during battle).

 

Anyway, thanks for the answer

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3 hours ago, Ruhraffe said:

I'm under the impression, that at the moment we still do not really have an idea about what is really strong and what is weak. I guess Winterleaf and Harvestboon are always good, Gnarlroot is a more defensive and spell-focused variant. 
In terms of battleline, Spite-Revs are now a solid choice as well, and tree revs teleportation was buffed. Alarielle isn't a must-include anymore, and Drychas damage output was buffed immensely. 

So, atm you probably want to go for one of the above glades, get a outcast or forest folk batallion, maybe free spirits (?), and that should be a solid baseline. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Makes sense. So more dryads and revenants, and I’m also eyeballing greatsword hunters and a spirit of Durthu (lots of big slicers).

Gnarlroot is spells, Harvestboon is run and hit and run, Winterleaf is exploding hits and mortal wounds afaict. Oakenbrow seems underwhelming but I’m not a good judge of power level. Dreadwood is for lots of spite-revenants, Heartwood is for lots of Kurnoth hunters, and Ironbark is good if... you want to ally with duardin? Why didn’t they include Kharadrons as allies, they were explicitly called out in the text.

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I'm currently trying Gnarlroot out at 1000 points. I'd say it is less spells, more healing and buffs from wizards. Sure, maybe I'm splitting hairs but it doesn't bring a lot of spell output. What it does bring is some nice healing and buffs with your wizards. I've been running 3 casters and taking extra healing from the Deepwood lore spells. Each wizard has units near them to take advantage of their buffs. It plays fairly defensive but, in my experience, very resilient. You probably won't be alpha-striking but entice your opponent to break their units on you and then counter attack and mop up the rest of their army. I generally play 1000 points so not sure how it would scale up.

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5 hours ago, Nick in York said:

I'm currently trying Gnarlroot out at 1000 points. I'd say it is less spells, more healing and buffs from wizards. Sure, maybe I'm splitting hairs but it doesn't bring a lot of spell output. What it does bring is some nice healing and buffs with your wizards. I've been running 3 casters and taking extra healing from the Deepwood lore spells. 

I think that’s an important difference between new Gnarlroot and old Gnarlroot.

The old wargrove was all about casting more spells, but didn’t make you any better at actually casting them. It was quantity over quality. 

The new glade doesn’t allow you to cast more, but makes that casting reliable and adds the various healing and defence buffs. Since the best spells on the Deepwood list are the two healing spells, chances are you’ll be using the reliable casting to cast a healing spell (doubly so if you also take a battalion and the Vesperal Gem). It adds up to a much more resilient list

 

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On 8/5/2019 at 6:05 AM, overtninja said:

Wyldwood = normal wood, so model sans special rules

Awakened Wyldwood = our cool bully treeS

 

On 8/5/2019 at 7:01 AM, Trevelyan said:

I agree that makes intuitive sense, but there is currently zero official support for this view. GW hasn’t released a generic Wyldwood warscroll or any sort of clarifying remarks. 

Do you have a reference that I’ve missed?


This is a tricky one. 

The GHB says that you must use the available warscroll for a a primary/secondary terrain feature if it has one. If a terrain feature does NOT have a warscroll you must generate a scenery rule from the unique table. According to the GHB, since there is no warscroll for a “Wyldwood”, you would be expected to treat it as Unique and generate a scenery rule for it using the provided table.

HOWEVER

The paragraph that says you must generate a scenery rule for terrain features that do not have a warscroll was changed in the errata. Now, the only terrain features you are required to generate rules for are unique terrain features. The language that said if a piece of scenery doesn’t have a warscroll, you must treat it as unique terrain is no longer there.

So what does that mean?       

Hell if I know. It really seems to me like it was intended to be an awakened wyldwood and somebody just thought that they’d shorten it for some reason. It’s pretty clear from the errata that all the primary/secondary terrain features on the table are meant to be used with a warscroll. The only warscroll that currently matches a “Wyldwood”  is the “Awakened Wyldwood”.

It sucks because we’re going to be treated like we’re trying to game the set-up rules, but based on how the FAQ/Errata/GHB rules all add up this seem like the most reasonable interpretation.  

 

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9 hours ago, IneptusAstartes said:

Makes sense. So more dryads and revenants, and I’m also eyeballing greatsword hunters and a spirit of Durthu (lots of big slicers).

Gnarlroot is spells, Harvestboon is run and hit and run, Winterleaf is exploding hits and mortal wounds afaict. Oakenbrow seems underwhelming but I’m not a good judge of power level. Dreadwood is for lots of spite-revenants, Heartwood is for lots of Kurnoth hunters, and Ironbark is good if... you want to ally with duardin? Why didn’t they include Kharadrons as allies, they were explicitly called out in the text.

Good summary!

If I had to find one thing to complain about in our book, its that Winterleaf is just so good that it  tends to overshadow the others in competitive play.

For example, Dreadwood is meant to buff Spites specifically, but winterleaf spites outperform dreadwood spites while also buffing every other unit in the book. Winterleaf also has the best glade item.

It kinda makes you wonder if Winterleaf exploding 6s were perhaps originally intended to be for Dryads only? All of the other primary glades specifically favor certain units. IE

Gnarlroot - Wizards

Dreadwood- Spites

Harvestboon - Durthu

Oakenbrow - Treelords

Yet winterleaf buffs everyone? Doesn't seem right.

 

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Hi there! Has someone a template of the aeakened wyldwood for the Base sizes? I want to Build my own Woods. Thank you.

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10 hours ago, Landohammer said:

If I had to find one thing to complain about in our book, its that Winterleaf is just so good that it  tends to overshadow the others in competitive play.

For example, Dreadwood is meant to buff Spites specifically, but winterleaf spites outperform dreadwood spites while also buffing every other unit in the book. Winterleaf also has the best glade item.

Winter leaf is a strong glade, but I think you are underestimating several of the others. Harvestboon, Gnarlroot and Dreadwood are all a lot better than you acknowledge. 

Winterleaf has the most directly potent Ability, but I’d argue that other grades have the stronger claim to the best Command Ability, Command Trait and Artefact. 

Branch Blizzard just pays a command point to autocast Dwellers Below. The mobility provided by Dreadwood’s Sinister Ambush is vastly better, especially with the reduction in movement via wyldwood. With a battalion or two for extra command points and the Spiteswarm Hive to boost charges you can arrange an alpha strike that doesn’t need exploding 6s. Another contender is Harvestboon - a single extra attack for Durthu under the Harvestboon command ability will do more damage than the Winterleaf ability. 

Harvestboon has a very useful command trait too. Seek New Fruit prevents most retaliation in combat. Put that on a Durthu and he’s got a much easier time picking targets and surviving attacks. The Gnarlroot Nurtured by Magic is defensive rather than offensive, but significantly boosts healing and plays well with the glade artefact as well as the popular Vesperal Gem. 

Gnarlroot has one of the strongest artefacts too. A lot of strategies depends on getting key spells out in time, and the Chalice of Nectar helps with those. The Vesperal Gem is obviously good for everyone, but only the Chalice helps to summon Wyldwoods, cast endless spells and unbind offensive magic. It has value every turn, in contrast the Winterleaf Gem buys you one extra attack and can be wasted. 

Winterleaf is best for charging your blob and the other guy’s blob and rolling fistfuls of dice. Other glades are equally good at different ways of playing the game. 

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Going up against 1500 pts of Fyreslayers this weekend  - which i have never fought. Should be fun.

I have played Winterleaf and Gnarlroot so far and quite liked the differences in play they bring. Going to try a Harvestboon Durthu list this time as it seems ridiculous fun!

 

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18 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Good summary!

If I had to find one thing to complain about in our book, its that Winterleaf is just so good that it  tends to overshadow the others in competitive play.

For example, Dreadwood is meant to buff Spites specifically, but winterleaf spites outperform dreadwood spites while also buffing every other unit in the book. Winterleaf also has the best glade item.

It kinda makes you wonder if Winterleaf exploding 6s were perhaps originally intended to be for Dryads only? All of the other primary glades specifically favor certain units. IE

Gnarlroot - Wizards

Dreadwood- Spites

Harvestboon - Durthu

Oakenbrow - Treelords

Yet winterleaf buffs everyone? Doesn't seem right.

 

Well, Harvestboon is pretty decent all around, in my opinion. It's command ability is the most applicable to all units, and it's bonus is nice to have on units like Dryads or Tree Revenants. I'd say there really isn't a unit besides maybe Kurnoths that don't benefit from it.

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7 hours ago, Trevelyan said:

 

Winterleaf is best for charging your blob and the other guy’s blob and rolling fistfuls of dice. Other glades are equally good at different ways of playing the game. 

You are probably right. Winterleaf fits my personal play style so perhaps I over value it above the rest. Also, admittedly, I have only played one tournament with the new codex so I haven't given the others an honest try yet.

But, to be fair,  all of my games have in fact, come down to gigantic fights between blobs. There is only so much we can do with teleports, magic, and shooting.

At the end of the day you will have to have a way to pull Archaon, 30 chainrasps, or  50 skinks off an objective.  (all of which I experienced in that tournament). 

I may just have to be the Winterleaf apologist until I see something that convinces me otherwise lol. 

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