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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

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12 hours ago, Emissary said:

case anyone is interested, here is the size of the new Wyldwood to the old:

In kNEoWH8.jpg

It’s good that the shape is different, now we have more options to fit them. I thought the new one was the same as the old one.

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10 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

Thanks!

Would you care to get the approximate width x length dimensions?

And if you have a second one, would be great to see some photos of what's possible with up to 6 of the "Citadel Woods models," to use their updated terminology, where 1 of the new Awakened Wyldwood kits consists of 3 Citadel Woods models.

 

I probably won't be able to today.  Painting it well works better if the ground parts of the trees stay on the sprues along with the branches and leaves when getting painted. It's getting airbrushed today.  Maybe will have it tomorrow.

 

I would say it's approximately 10-12" in diameter.  It's taken apart for spraying and I'm not at home at the moment.

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If you double the circumference of a circle, the area goes up by a factor of 4.  If  3 of the new citadel woods is about the size of one old citadel woods model, then 6 of the new trees is going to have a footprint roughly between 3 and 4 old citadel woods.  Unfortunately, it seems you are really incentivized to buy the new tree models so you have the best flexibility for making the biggest woods you can.

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10 minutes ago, Sumanye said:

If you double the circumference of a circle, the area goes up by a factor of 4.  If  3 of the new citadel woods is about the size of one old citadel woods model, then 6 of the new trees is going to have a footprint roughly between 3 and 4 old citadel woods.  Unfortunately, it seems you are really incentivized to buy the new tree models so you have the best flexibility for making the biggest woods you can.

let's also keep in mind that with the new scenery rules, there is a 0% chance you'd be able to throw down a full 6-part woods in matched play. there's no point in seeking advantage in this case - though the new models have a slightly smaller footprint, which in the new rules is actually better overall.

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7 minutes ago, overtninja said:

let's also keep in mind that with the new scenery rules, there is a 0% chance you'd be able to throw down a full 6-part woods in matched play. there's no point in seeking advantage in this case - though the new models have a slightly smaller footprint, which in the new rules is actually better overall.

That’s true, but you don’t have to make a circle either, you can bend the shape when you setup to fit it where you need it if I understand correctly.  I haven’t built mine yet, so I can’t say how helpful this is.  On the other hand, a circle maximizes the area so it best to make that if possible

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 Congrats on new book, I have Sylvaneth but am primarily a Skaven player.

This may not be new, but did some Mathhammer - check my calculations?

Unit of 30 Dryads, Winterleaf, say in the Forest Folk battalion, why not?

They charge - say 15 models can roll to hit with the 2” range...

Enrapturing song so +1 

31 attacks at 3+ / / 4+

20 hits - but wait? 5 of those hits are 6’s so tat means

25 rolls to wound = 12 wounds, or .75 wounds per model able to reach in combat

12 vs -1 rend = 10wounds

12 vs -2 rend =  8 wounds

12 vs -3 rend = 6 wounds

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9 hours ago, Coyote said:

Enrapturing song so +1 

31 attacks at 3+ / / 4+

20 hits - but wait? 5 of those hits are 6’s so tat means

25 rolls to wound = 12 wounds, or .75 wounds per model able to reach in combat

12 vs -1 rend = 10wounds

12 vs -2 rend =  8 wounds

12 vs -3 rend = 6 wounds

Your basic numbers are correct, but 12 wounds from 15 models is 0.8 wounds per model, not 0.75. 

I assume the reference at the end to rend is a mistake, you seem to have listed results for 6+/5+/4+ save. 

As Emissary suggests, this is inferior to Spite Revenants for pure damage.

Let’s say the same 15 Spite Revenants found a target. They would make 46 attacks at 3+/3+ for  31 basic hits, plus 8 extras from winterleaf - 39 hits on average. Those would result in 26 successful wounds from 15 models or 1.7 per model, more than twice as deadly as the Dryads. 

It is harder to get 15 Spite Revenants into range of a target with only 1” melee weapons, but they’ve got plenty of damage potential to work with smaller numbers. 

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I'm far from an expert player, so forgive me if this is a stupid comment, but isn't the big variable there the chances of getting 15 Spite Revs into combat? It's easier to get Dryads into combat because of their 2 inch reach. Also, Dryads are a bit more survivable. Spite Revs have the bravery debufs, and are a lot cheaper, and you don't have to pay for the Forest Folk battalion as per Coyote's example.

 

I'm going to try both out, and I'm particularly excited to try out a Spite-heavy list with Drycha and that scary tree endless spell. I'll see how they go. Mathhammer rarely translates to the table in my experience. 

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I think they both have merit. Keep in mind that with the 3rd attack, you only need 2/³rds as many in combat to get the same damage output. So yes, often I don't get quite all of them, but they will still out damage dryads. This so ignoring the 3+ to wound. On the defence however it is much harder and the 2 inch reach much more useful. 

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Played a game with the new winterleaf today, what I took was

Alarielle, Throne of Vines
Durthu, Ghystrike, My heart is ice
Arch Revenant, Frozen Kernel
Branchwraith, Verdorous Harmony

3  x 5 Spite Revenants

6 Scythe Hunters

Outcasts

Spell Portal
Spiteswarm Hive

My opponent didn't properly screen so on my turn one I killed 10 Reavers via shooting with Durthu and Alarielle, then in the combat phase killed 14 Eternal Guard, 19 Thralls & 6 Morsarr guard with a double pile in from the scythe hunters. I won the normal turn order for turn 2 and killed 6 more Morsarr guard, the last of the eternal guard and thralls leaving my opponent with just akhelian king and soulscryer.  Was a good showing of just how kill new Winterleaf can be but a good example also of how if one things fail (second wood, spiteswarm spell, 2+ roll on the spiteswarm) your turn one can be a whiff.

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2 hours ago, feltmonkey said:

I'm far from an expert player, so forgive me if this is a stupid comment, but isn't the big variable there the chances of getting 15 Spite Revs into combat? It's easier to get Dryads into combat because of their 2 inch reach. Also, Dryads are a bit more survivable. Spite Revs have the bravery debufs, and are a lot cheaper, and you don't have to pay for the Forest Folk battalion as per Coyote's example.

Dryads are a lot tougher than Spites. Between blessings of the forest and impenetrable thicket, a unit of Dryads can be very hard to remove.

But in terms of pure damage out put they lose to the new Spites under any circumstances. Consider that in the above example, the aspires were doing more than twice the damage of the Dryads. Rather than look at the challenge of getting 15 Spites into range of the same target, you could look at it another way - you only need 7 Spites in range to do the same damage as those 15 Dryads.

Both units are useful but Spites are useful as a (glass) hammer, while Dryads are your anvil. You want Dryads for their durability, and to make the most of that durability you should be near a wyldwood. Spites play games with Bravery and Battleshock so want to be out hunting targets. 

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For those that travel and Fly with their army i have a question. How do you plan to transport your trees on a plane? I have a pack GO and can get the army to fit in it but i cant figure out how to transport the new tree on a plane. Anyone have any suggestions or tips. If not i dont think ill beable to fly with them and will have to pick up an easier to transport army

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Trevelyan said:

Dryads are a lot tougher than Spites. Between blessings of the forest and impenetrable thicket, a unit of Dryads can be very hard to remove.

But in terms of pure damage out put they lose to the new Spites under any circumstances. Consider that in the above example, the aspires were doing more than twice the damage of the Dryads. Rather than look at the challenge of getting 15 Spites into range of the same target, you could look at it another way - you only need 7 Spites in range to do the same damage as those 15 Dryads.

Both units are useful but Spites are useful as a (glass) hammer, while Dryads are your anvil. You want Dryads for their durability, and to make the most of that durability you should be near a wyldwood. Spites play games with Bravery and Battleshock so want to be out hunting targets. 

So you picked some key numbers here I want to point out, I play a lot of thralls in deepkin, correct me if I am wrong but they have the same base as Spites, and 1 inch reach.   7 is in fact the average number I get in contact, thralls are faster and occasionally get my +3 inch charge buff.    My point here is that you are significantly more likely to get more than 15 Dryads, than you are more than 7 Spites, consider the speed as well as the reach.    I picked up 2 looncurse and two starters, and my feeling is more dryads before more spites.

Edited by Nerdkingdan

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57 minutes ago, Nerdkingdan said:

My point here is that you are significantly more likely to get more than 15 Dryads, than you are more than 7 Spites, consider the speed as well as the reach.    I picked up 2 looncurse and two starters, and my feeling is more dryads before more spites.

Sylvaneth don’t really play like Idoneth. If the only option was to set the two units up on the table and get them running towards an opposing unit then the Dryad speed advantage would be more significant. And sometimes it really does help. But more often than not you are either a) being charged, in which case Dryads help on the defence but the movement is largely irrelevant; b) close enough to an enemy that failed a charge that you can walk right up with either unit and any half decent charge roll gives you adequate distance to get the unit fully engaged; or c) teleporting a unit forward, at which point the 9” charge is identical for both units, with the Dryad range needing to get twice as many, at around twice the cost, into combat to even things out. 

Teleports with the new book are obviously more restricted, but in Dreadwood you’ve got a lot of Spite synergy and extra teleports, and while you might not always be teleporting Spites otherwise, you won’t want to be teleporting Dryads in those circumstances either - you’ll be sending Kurnoths in ahead of either of them. 

I’m not saying you won’t want Dryads, because you will. I’m saying that you don’t want to fall into the trap of thinking that’s a Dryads are your best offensive battleline infantry. And by extension, you don’t want to overlook the value of Spites, because even a unit of 5 or 10 can punch a lot harder than you’d think. 

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Allegiance: Sylvaneth
Grove: Winterleaf
Arch-Revenant (100)
Drycha Hamadreth (320)
- Deepwood Spell: The Dwellers Below
Spirit of Durthu (340)
- General
- Winterleaf items/ability 
Treelord Ancient (300)
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
Branchwraith (80)
- Deepwood Spell: Verdant Blessing
5 x Spite-Revenants (60)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
5 x Spite-Revenants (60)
6 x Kurnoth Hunters (400)
- Scythes
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200)
- Greatswords
Spiteswarm Hive (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000

Thoughts on this list?
I feel like it's a bit character heavy maybe? I'd love to take the outcasts battalion but can't really fit it. Maybe if I drop the revenant? Perhaps the hunter unit doesn't really need his ability? 

General idea is to teleport the 6 scythes and 2 tree lords, while Dyrcha and the other hunters run up a different flank or whatever. Spites hold objectives or screen until more dryads can be summoned and the tree-revs teleport to snatch objectives when possible. 

Just not sure if I have enough bodies.
I'd like to eventually try something with Alarielle too but at the moment, this is all the stuff I own.  

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2 hours ago, Inquisitorsz said:

Thoughts on this list? 

It would probably work well against something like Orruks that just want to charge at your front line, but against anything more mobile that can fly over your units to your objectives, or even just run faster to flank you, 5 Spite Revenants won’t be able to hold the objective. See the above discussion - this is a case where you want Dryads more than the alternative. While you can summon them, it isn’t reliable without some further casting buffs. 

I would be inclined to keep the arch Revenant but consider dropping one of Durthu or Drycha. With the Kurnoths in the list you’ve already got plenty of punch. That’ll let you get a nice blob of Dryads or two plus free up some more points, perhaps for a second wraith. 

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Theory: allocate the first wound you receive to the arch revs flying buddy so you lose the keyword and can sit in the woods without being shot. 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Inquisitorsz said:


Thoughts on this list?
I feel like it's a bit character heavy maybe? I'd love to take the outcasts battalion but can't really fit it. Maybe if I drop the revenant? Perhaps the hunter unit doesn't really need his ability? 

General idea is to teleport the 6 scythes and 2 tree lords, while Dyrcha and the other hunters run up a different flank or whatever. Spites hold objectives or screen until more dryads can be summoned and the tree-revs teleport to snatch objectives when possible. 

Just not sure if I have enough bodies.
I'd like to eventually try something with Alarielle too but at the moment, this is all the stuff I own.  

Overall, I think it's pretty good.  I wouldn't drop the Arch-Revenant.  She really adds to the Hunters not only in the reroll buff but also the +1 attack command ability.

I agree with Trev that the bodies holding the objectives will be a weakness in the army.  You will have to plan for it, especially if you are playing a fast army like Hedonites or an army that can come behind you like FEC or Beastmen.

Also, switch around your spells a bit.  Give the Branchwraith Throne of Vines and put the Harmony spell on Drycha.

Lastly, take Malevolent Maelstrom with your last 10 points.

Edit:  

1) Also, the Frozen Kernal probably should be on the Arch Revenant as she can get it where it needs to be easily with her large fly move.

2) You could also drop Drycha and add 3 more Sword Hunters and then drop a unit of spites for 10 Dryads and a 2nd Branchwraith.  Or you could drop the tree revenants for 20 Dryads.

Edited by Emissary

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Posted (edited)

I've started collecting Sylvaneth after a long, long time of doubt and now I'm toying with two Gnarlroot lists. The first one has only four drops and the second one has more bodies.  

 

List 1

Allegiance: Sylvaneth - Mortal Realm: Shyish
 - Glade: Gnarlroot
LEADERS
Alarielle the Everqueen (660)
- Deepwood Spell : Throne of Vines
Treelord Ancient (300)
- General
- Command Trait : Nurtured by Magic 
- Artefact : The Vesperal Gem 
- Deepwood Spell : Regrowth
Treelord Ancient (300)
- Artefact : Ethereal Amulet or the Acorn
- Deepwood Spell : The Dwellers Below
Branchwraith (80)
- Artefact : Chalice of Nectar 
- Deepwood Spell : Verdurous Harmony
UNITS
10 x Spite-Revenants (120)
5 x Spite-Revenants (60)
5 x Spite-Revenants (60)
BEHEMOTHS
Treelord (200)
BATTALIONS
Outcasts (100)
Lords of the Clan (60)
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN
Spiteswarm Hive (50)

There might not be that many bodies, but the four drops will likely allow me to choose who goes first most of the times. With that in mind, I can add two or three trees on the first turn plus 20 dryads next to an objective. The Ancients are not the most reliable heavy hitters but they can always do some damage and cause some units to go last. 

I don't know what item to give to my second Ancient. It could either go with the Acorn for extra woods or the Ethereal Amulet for tankiness or the Fire Cape for mobility. 

 

List 2

Allegiance: Sylvaneth - Mortal Realm: Shyish
 - Glade: Gnarlroot
LEADERS
 Alarielle the Everqueen (660)
- Deepwood Spell : Throne of Vines
Treelord Ancient (300)
- General
- Command Trait : Nurtured by Magic 
- Artefact : The Vesperal Gem 
- Deepwood Spell : Regrowth
Branchwraith (80)
- Artefact : Chalice of Nectar 
- Deepwood Spell : Verdurous Harmony
Drycha Hamadreth (320)
- Deepwood Spell : The Dwellers Below
UNITS
10 x Dryads (100)
10 x Dryads (100)
10 x Dryads (100)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
BATTALIONS
Forest Folk (140)
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN
Spiteswarm Hive (50)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

Many more bodies, Drycha, teleporting squad and the Geminids.

What do you think? 

Edited by Izotzuhure

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Not sure if this has been discussed, or will have to wait for the FAQ, but I'm interested in people's thoughts on the wording of the Spirit Paths ability the treelord type characters have.

I'm thinking about where it says "...if this model is within 6" of a friendly Awakened Wyldwood..." and "...set it up wholly within 6" of a different friendly Awakened Wyldwood...".

Does the use of 'friendly' mean that if we're playing against another Sylvaneth army that we'd not be able to teleport to and from the woods they have put down?

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41 minutes ago, Nick in York said:

Not sure if this has been discussed, or will have to wait for the FAQ, but I'm interested in people's thoughts on the wording of the Spirit Paths ability the treelord type characters have.

I'm thinking about where it says "...if this model is within 6" of a friendly Awakened Wyldwood..." and "...set it up wholly within 6" of a different friendly Awakened Wyldwood...".

Does the use of 'friendly' mean that if we're playing against another Sylvaneth army that we'd not be able to teleport to and from the woods they have put down?

The wyldwood you place at setup is part of your army as it is included with your army.  Both the Treelord Ancient and Acorn of the Ages state you place a new wyldwood and add it to your army.  Verdant Blessing does not have that statement, but I'm willing to bet it should have it and that will get fixed.  

So yes, you can't use the wyldwoods they put down for teleporting.  Their wyldwoods can't hurt you though.

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On 7/19/2019 at 11:34 PM, scrubyandwells said:

Thanks!

Would you care to get the approximate width x length dimensions?

And if you have a second one, would be great to see some photos of what's possible with up to 6 of the "Citadel Woods models," to use their updated terminology, where 1 of the new Awakened Wyldwood kits consists of 3 Citadel Woods models.

 

I've almost got my first of four Awakened Wyldwoods painted.  Just have to finish the branches with the leaves.  The dimensions is roughly an 8" diameter circle.  One tree has a flatter part of the circle which pulls it in a little.  The diameter will vary from a little under 8" at the narrowest part to 9" at the widest.

When I get the 2nd set together I can do the 6 trees together, but it won't be until after the weekend as I'm going to be out of town later this week until Sunday.

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9 hours ago, Emissary said:

The wyldwood you place at setup is part of your army as it is included with your army.  Both the Treelord Ancient and Acorn of the Ages state you place a new wyldwood and add it to your army.  Verdant Blessing does not have that statement, but I'm willing to bet it should have it and that will get fixed.  

So yes, you can't use the wyldwoods they put down for teleporting.  Their wyldwoods can't hurt you though.

I’m not sure that’s true. The Wyldwood you put down with your allegiance ability is still considered a terrain feature and the core rules note that “Terrain features are considered to be friendly to both sides and cannot he chosen as the target of an attack”.

I don’t know if there is a specific FAQ on faction terrain which supersedes that. 

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4 hours ago, Trevelyan said:

I’m not sure that’s true. The Wyldwood you put down with your allegiance ability is still considered a terrain feature and the core rules note that “Terrain features are considered to be friendly to both sides and cannot he chosen as the target of an attack”.

I don’t know if there is a specific FAQ on faction terrain which supersedes that. 

On page 70 of the Sylvaneth book under Awakened Wyldwood it states "A Sylvaneth army can include 1 Awakened Wyldwood terrain feature". That's where I got that.

 

That is odd if terrain is friendly to both side that the Sylvaneth book would state you add Awakened Wyldwoods to your army in a few places.

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