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AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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1 hour ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys definitly about wildwood with versante blessing for ex we can but 

- 1 big aw windwood with 3 little trees

- 1/2/3 little trees 3" together , 1 " from models and 3" from objective 

Am I right?:)

1/2/3 single trees more than 3" from each other, more than 3" from other terrain, more than 3" from all objectives, and more than 1" from other models.

OR

One ring of 3 trees that follow the same restrictions (other than 3" from each other).

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Hello, going to my first tournament and I am looking for some advice between the two lists below or really any pointers to competitive play as I really just play my same buddy.  I am really only partial to the Alarielle in the list as I just finished a conversion. I don't have extra dryads so it doesn't make sense to me to bring a Branchwych to summon them. I have a Durthu, Drycha, two branch ladies, bow hunters and sword hunters that I will most likely summon on a set of that I could sub into the below. I get in the new scoring the spite-revenants might just be giving away free points. My really only goal is to win one game and turn one person's hero into trees.

 
Spoiler

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Gnarlroot
- Mortal Realm: Ghyran
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Alarielle the Everqueen (740)
Treelord Ancient (295) in Battle Regiment

Battleline
10 x Dryads (95) in Battle Regiment
10 x Dryads (95) in Battle Regiment
5 x Tree-Revenants (80) in Battle Regiment
5 x Tree-Revenants (80) in Battle Regiment
5 x Spite-Revenants (70) in Battle Regiment
5 x Spite-Revenants (70) in Battle Regiment

Units
6 x Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Scythes (430)
- Reinforced x 1

Endless Spells & Invocations
Spiteswarm Hive (40)

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 98

 

 
 
 
Spoiler

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Gnarlroot
- Mortal Realm: Ghyran
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Alarielle the Everqueen (740)
Treelord Ancient (295) in Battle Regiment
- General
- Command Trait: Nurtured by Magic
- Artefact: Chalice of Nectar
- Deepwood Spell: Verdurous Harmony
Drycha Hamadreth (330)
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth

Battleline
10 x Dryads (95) in Battle Regiment
10 x Dryads (95) in Battle Regiment
5 x Tree-Revenants (80) in Battle Regiment
5 x Tree-Revenants (80) in Battle Regiment

Units
3 x Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Greatswords (225)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Spiteswarm Hive (40)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 83



 
Edited by GunslingerOy
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8 hours ago, Pennydude said:

1/2/3 single trees more than 3" from each other, more than 3" from other terrain, more than 3" from all objectives, and more than 1" from other models.

OR

One ring of 3 trees that follow the same restrictions (other than 3" from each other).

Also note that the 3" restriction only affects the awakened wyldwoods you place before setup.  The ones you summon with spells, ancients or the acorn just follow their 1" from other model rules. (Single trees still have to be more than 3" from each other). 

Edited by Emissary
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1 hour ago, Emissary said:

Also note that the 3" restriction only affects the awakened wyldwoods you place before setup.  The ones you summon with spells, ancients or the acorn just follow their 1" from other model rules. (Single trees still have to be more than 3" from each other). 

Disagree. Woods placed during the game are still faction terrain features and thus are still subject to GHB restrictions in addition to warscroll restrictions. Needs FAQ and I hope I’m wrong. 

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16 minutes ago, Pennydude said:

Disagree. Woods placed during the game are still faction terrain features and thus are still subject to GHB restrictions in addition to warscroll restrictions. Needs FAQ and I hope I’m wrong. 

I understand that, but the 3" rule in the general's handbook is with the before the start of the game setup instructions.  The first paragraph on the Awakened Wyldwood datasheet where it mentions being 3" from other terrain and objectives is also only talking about the before the start of the game setup.  That's why we've been playing it as those that 3" setup restriction doesn't affect them once the game is started.

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3 hours ago, Emissary said:

I understand that, but the 3" rule in the general's handbook is with the before the start of the game setup instructions. 

This is an inference only. The section is not labeled as such, and it doesn't say anything in the rules text about no longer applying once the game begins.

There's certainly ambiguity, and I agree with @Pennydude that it needs an FAQ. Purely going with the rules as written, though, my belief is that you have to apply it to all wyldwoods during the game.

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13 hours ago, Pennydude said:

1/2/3 single trees more than 3" from each other, more than 3" from other terrain, more than 3" from all objectives, and more than 1" from other models.

OR

One ring of 3 trees that follow the same restrictions (other than 3" from each other).

I'm not sure that goes for the summoned forest. Warscrolls overrule core rules right? 

* After studying I'm still not 100% sure but will still advocate playing the 1" rules *

Reasoning:

The new awakened wyldwood scroll 'set up' part first starts about what clearly only is about the pre game placing of a wyldwood.

The next part:

' This faction terrain feature consists of 3 scenery pieces. When you set it up, you can set up the 3 scenery pieces so that they form a circle with an area of open ground inside the circle, or you can set them up more than 3" from each other. If you set them up so that they form a circle, they form 1 large Awakened Wyldwood, and the area of open ground inside the circle is considered to be part of the Awakened Wyldwood. If you set them up more than 3" from each other, they form 3 small Awakened Wyldwoods that are separate faction terrain features.' 

could be about every placement.

However I think the spell decription and the TLA ability overrule that part. GW has obviously looked at a lot of stuff, including the TLA warscroll and the spell lore page both which have had 2 other errata. Since the spell and the ability have not been changed I think you can legitimately still use that wording as it is especially since it's not unreasonably to assume the quoted part above is just about pregame placement.

Also it makes more sense to have an ability that lowers a treshold on another warscroll than to have an ability that specifically says 1 inch and then refer to another warscroll that makes it 3 inch.

All in all I think there is enough reason not to see playing 1" as abuse unless there is a FAQ. I'm all for erring on the side of caution and I've played ruled unfavorably for myself in the past but this reasoning leans so far towards 1" that I'll be playing that.

Edited by Aezeal
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Also I played a game yesterday and even though we had to stop after 2 turns (AoS 3.0 new rules made us play slow) I won and I can say I'm very happy with where we are.

The 3 seperate awakened wyldwood rules are nice (even though 2 where burned right away)

I also see much more options for teleporting (even though due to his run, charge mechanism) he was into (and burning) the forests so I couldn't teleport anywhere even after summoning a new set.

TL at this points value compared to hunters seem a valid option now. The monster abilities are very nice, and claiming objective for 5 really helps. I took 2 and a TLA, next time I'll probably play one 1 TL since healing all of them is not that easy (unless you have Alarielle I guess, which I didn't) and damage drop off is steep.

A side question for DoK players: can Morathi really use the hero healing ability.. because getting her down is not really possible if she can heal d3 every turn when you can only damage 3 max.

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5 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

A side question for DoK players: can Morathi really use the hero healing ability.. because getting her down is not really possible if she can heal d3 every turn when you can only damage 3 max.

The same rule that makes her unkillable also prevents her from healing in any way. 

It's the last line of Iron Heart of Khaine. 

Edited by KrispyXIV
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4 hours ago, Emissary said:

I understand that, but the 3" rule in the general's handbook is with the before the start of the game setup instructions.  The first paragraph on the Awakened Wyldwood datasheet where it mentions being 3" from other terrain and objectives is also only talking about the before the start of the game setup.  That's why we've been playing it as those that 3" setup restriction doesn't affect them once the game is started.

The GHB battlepack mentions rules that apply for your that battlepack and there's no mention of "before game" placement.  All rules in that apply to the game.  Does it suck?  Yes, but dem's the rules.

@Aezeal It's because the GHB applies restrictions to faction terrain placement in addition to whatever the warscroll says.

Everyone, I don't mean to be a downer.  I want this clarified like everyone else but it's crystal clear to me that we still have more restrictions to deal with.  I'd love for our woods to be 1" from things.

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@GunslingerOy

I haven't played a ton of third yet, but here's my thoughts on your lists:

Between the two, I think I'd prefer the list without Drycha. There's no doubt in my mind she's a badass, but tying up 1000 points on those two models is leaving you a little light on wounds. It's interesting, but I think the other list is "safer".

In that list, I would combine your Dryads and your Spite Revs into single units. That will make them better buff targets for command abilities, and make them slightly harder to take out for your opponent's battle tactic. (This would also let you fit your units into a single battle regiment. I think you've got too many units in there right now.)

If you did want to play the second list, I would again combine the Dreads, and I would also stick the Dryads, Kurnoths, and one Tree Rev squad into a hunters battalion, since you probably shouldn't worry about drops with that list.

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24 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

Honest WArgamer Sylvaneth with mathmarshamallowmattmathetmatics or whatever his name is.  Great guy though.  Rob is always fun.

I'm halfway through this (coffee break atm) and it's got some good little things to pickup.  I'm.... suspecting it's someone here also but I could be wrong. 

I’m interested to try his list at a tournament this weekend but I don’t know if I have the cajones to run something that’s little melee presence.

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2 hours ago, Pennydude said:

The GHB battlepack mentions rules that apply for your that battlepack and there's no mention of "before game" placement.  All rules in that apply to the game.  Does it suck?  Yes, but dem's the rules.

@Aezeal It's because the GHB applies restrictions to faction terrain placement in addition to whatever the warscroll says.

Are we the only faction that can summon faction terrain during the game as well as place it at the start? That alone might be a cause for ambiguity. 
While the Faction Terrain subheading doesn’t explicitly mention “before game” placement, it is clearly placed in a sequential list after discussion of generic terrain features and before determining the traits of mysterious terrain features. Suggesting that this isn’t part of the pre game sequence is a stretch. 

More interesting is the revised Awakened Wyldwood warscroll itself. The language there talking about the 3” limit is clearly only talking about setup at the start of the game. The warscroll doesn’t mention later placement, which is significant because the pre-BR version (still listed on the AoS app) very explicitly does apply additional restrictions on placement beyond those in the spell used to summon it. 
 

It is possible that GW really did mean the section of rules on setup to supersede all subsequent summoned distances. It is possible that GW removed the extra restrictions on the old version from the updated warscroll for Awakened Wyldwoods but still expected people to apply them. It is possible that GW decided not to errata any of the applicable spells and abilities that summon Awakened Wyldwoods to clarify the summoning restrictions when updating the rest of the army. But I find it the less convincing interpretation unless/unroll we get clarification. 

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I think that we only have in mind Matched play. GW wrote different set ups for all faction terrains, and they are acceptable for narrative, open and path to glory. But to standardize all those rules for matched play, GW added the restrictions of 3” in addition to the current restrictions all faction terrain. Also, when you summon an awakened wyldwood it is actually a faction terrain, it is written on the warscroll, in the title. I know that you can set it up from different sources and the restrictions are not the same, but ot is a faction terrain and on top of these restrictions you have to add the one for matched play (if you are playing this game mode).

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57 minutes ago, GunslingerOy said:

The Warsong revenant is on the same base as Treelords and Drycha? Reads as 105mm oval but stuff I see online seems to imply 105mm oval and 105mm by 70mm are the same.

Treelords, Drycha, Warsong, and Skullroot are all on the same 105mm x 70mm oval base.

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On 7/14/2021 at 9:11 AM, Pennydude said:

The GHB battlepack mentions rules that apply for your that battlepack… All rules in that apply to the game.  Does it suck?  Yes, but dem's the rules.

No. The rules are Battletome/warscroll rules override core rules. It’s literally been that way forever (and I’m fairly sure it’s printed in the new rule set as well although I don’t have a citation handy atm).

Think about what you arguing. Are we going to argue that Alarielle can’t retreat from combat and shoot because the core rules for matched play say “you can’t retreat and shoot”? Are we not allowed to take Gotrek as an ally because the GHB rules say you can’t have more than 400pts of allies? Are we just going to ignore all the instances in the game where a warscroll says you can do something that conflicts with the core rules? 

No. And I can cite dozens of examples of this from nearly every Battletome that’s been released so far. 

If the core rules say one thing (3”) and warscroll/Battletome rules say another (1”) you use the warscroll rules. Yes it says “in addition to” but we already have a range restriction in the Allegiance/warscroll ability. War still/Battletome always, always, takes precedence when two rules conflict. When there’s a question of which rule/range to use, you use the Battletome RAW. Full stop. 

I’d like to point out I’d like to have an faq on this too. Mostly so people can stop arguing that Battletome rules take precedence for every army except Sylvaneth apparently.

Edited by Mirage8112
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7 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

No. The rules are Battletome/warscroll rules override core rules. It’s literally been that way forever (and I’m fairly sure it’s printed in the new rule set as well although I don’t have a citation handy atm).

Think about what you arguing. Are we going to argue that Alarielle can’t retreat from combat and shoot because the core rules for matched play say “you can’t retreat and shoot”? Are we not allowed to take Gotrek as an ally because the GHB rules say you can’t have more than 400pts of allies? Are we just going to ignore all the instances in the game where a warscroll says you can do something that conflicts with the core rules? 

No. And I can cite dozens of examples of this from nearly every Battletome that’s been released so far. 

If the core rules say one thing (3”) and warscroll/Battletome rules say another (1”) you use the warscroll rules. Yes it says “in addition to” but we already have a range restriction in the Allegiance/warscroll ability. War still/Battletome always, always, takes precedence when two rules conflict. When there’s a question of which rule/range to use, you use the Battletome RAW. Full stop. 

I’d like to point out I’d like to have an faq on this too. Mostly so people can stop arguing that Battletome rules take precedence for every army except Sylvaneth apparently.

Thanks for jumping down my throat and I disagree with what you say other than also wanting to see an FAQ.  GHB rules aren't core rules.  Gotrek's exception is explicitly written in his points in the pitched battle profile.  Alarielle's is on her warscroll which takes precedence over CORE rules (1.6 sidebar).  

I'm done here.  I'm done posting.  Thanks for ruining this for me.

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1 hour ago, Pennydude said:

Thanks for jumping down my throat and I disagree with what you say other than also wanting to see an FAQ. 

We all have our opinions on rules interpretations that aren’t covered by an existing FAQ. If you’re prepared to give your opinion and reasoning, you should be prepared to have somebody disagree with it. Generally that’s what these discussions are for, and I’ve said as much elsewhere.
 

1 hour ago, Pennydude said:

GHB rules aren't core rules. Gotrek's exception is explicitly written in his points in the pitched battle profile. Alarielle's is on her warscroll which takes precedence over CORE rules (1.6 sidebar).  


GHB is a core rulebook47A4D529-3777-4510-94F8-A2F1062C6DE3.jpeg.51bee41042a0d112b406d3e83ede8be8.jpeg

The TLA has his WW summoning rule explicitly written on its warscroll. Allarielle explicitly has her WW summoning rule written on her warscroll. Both have had their warscrolls updated for 3.0, I can’t think of a single warscroll that has one set of rules for matched play and one set for open play. That’’s why Warscrolls take precedence over core books.

 

1 hour ago, Pennydude said:

I'm done here.  I'm done posting.  Thanks for ruining this for me.

 

I’ll totally own that fact that I can be forceful in my replies. Still, I do value your insight and respect your right to have an opinion. I will absolutely defend to the death your right to express your viewpoint, but I’m not going to refrain from challenging it just because you have it. 

I’d hate to see you go, not least because I find your insight super valuable: I find opposing viewpoints more valuable than concurring ones. If I’ve offended you with my tone I apologize, but I’m not going to apologize for rigorously disagreeing with you.   

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@Pennydude The warscroll states, under setup:

SET-UP: After territories are 
determined, you can set up this faction 
terrain feature wholly within your 
territory and more than 3" from all 
objectives and other terrain features.

There is no other mention of having to be more than 3" away from other models. They also do not mention "in addition to any other restrictions," as was the case in 2.0 (this is based on the wyldwood, TLA, and Alarielle warscrolls) 

This, to me, clearly means that whichever ability is being used to set up a wyldwood will have all the restrictions listed. As there are no generic restrictions outside of the 3" from the other two models when deploying three small wyldwood, I'm damn sure there are no additional restrictions to apply.

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2 hours ago, Pennydude said:

I'm done here.  I'm done posting.  Thanks for ruining this for me.

I'd like to echo what @Mirage8112 posted, and say that I always enjoy your posts, and I find your insights to be super valuable. I'd never tell someone to stay on a board if they're not enjoying the discourse, but you should know that your opinions are valued and respected here, @Pennydude. I hope you stick around.

1 hour ago, Mirage8112 said:

I’ll totally own that fact that I can be forceful in my replies. Still, I do value your insight and respect your right to have an opinion. I will absolutely defend to the death your right to express your viewpoint, but I’m not going to refrain from challenging it just because you have it.

I doubt anyone's ever accused you of being afraid to speak your mind, but I've always found you to be respectful when our opinions have differed. The fact that you take the time to respond carefully and thoroughly is, I think, a credit to how you give weight to what is posted when people disagree.

 

3 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

If the core rules say one thing (3”) and warscroll/Battletome rules say another (1”) you use the warscroll rules. Yes it says “in addition to” but we already have a range restriction in the Allegiance/warscroll ability. War still/Battletome always, always, takes precedence when two rules conflict. When there’s a question of which rule/range to use, you use the Battletome RAW. Full stop.

Speaking of disagreements, I guess I'd like to weigh in on this point. Your argument seems to look at the deployment restriction as a single variable, which can't have two different static values at once. I think you're basically saying that the following two statements are contradictory:

  • The distance from other terrain that the wyldwood must be set up is 1"
  • The distance from other terrain that the wyldwood must be set up is 3"

And they are, because they cannot both be true. However, it's not how the rules are worded. The next two statements are NOT contradictory:

  • The wyldwood must be set up more than one inch away from other terrain
  • The wyldwood must be set up more than three inches away from other terrain

These two rules don't contradict each other, because they're not mutually exclusive. If a tree is more than three inches from other terrain, it is also more than one inch away, and both rules are satisfied. If tthey can both be followed at the same time, then they don't contradict each other, and you don't get to ignore the GHB rules in favor of the warscroll rules.

All of this also ignores the presence of the "in addition to" clause. The wording of that phrase makes it very difficult, in my mind, to overrule the GHB rules. The only time I could see a battletome overruling the GHB restrictions is if the conditions of the ability actually cannot coexist with the restrictions, such as:

  • This faction terrain feature must be set up within 1" of another terrain feature
  • All faction terrain must be set up more than 3" from other terrain features

The above is obviously not a real rule, but it's an example of what two mutually exclusive conditions could look like.

14 minutes ago, Kaylethia said:

There is no other mention of having to be more than 3" away from other models. They also do not mention "in addition to any other restrictions," as was the case in 2.0 (this is based on the wyldwood, TLA, and Alarielle warscrolls) 

This, to me, clearly means that whichever ability is being used to set up a wyldwood will have all the restrictions listed. As there are no generic restrictions outside of the 3" from the other two models when deploying three small wyldwood, I'm damn sure there are no additional restrictions to apply.

The "in addition to" does not come from the warscroll. It comes from faction terrain rules in the GHB, and I don't think that @Pennydude ever said that wyldwoods needed to be 3" from models.

@Pennydude's stance, and mine, is that wyldwoods must follow the restrictions listed on whatever ability is being used to place the wyldwood, plus the restrictions listed in the generals handbook.

As I understand it, there's a general consensus that both these rules and the rules on the wyldwood's warscroll must be followed when setting up a wyldwood before the battle begins. The debate is mostly centered around whether the GHB rules continue to apply to faction terrain which is set up after the battle begins.

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On 7/14/2021 at 7:21 PM, Popisdead said:

Honest WArgamer Sylvaneth with mathmarshamallowmattmathetmatics or whatever his name is.  Great guy though.  Rob is always fun.

I'm halfway through this (coffee break atm) and it's got some good little things to pickup.  I'm.... suspecting it's someone here also but I could be wrong. 

Wait a sec, they said in this podcast if I give gnarloot artefact on warsong revenant i can roll 3 dice to see my casting role, i chose 2 highter rolls to see if I casted the spell, but when I resolve that spell i can use all 3 dice to see casting roll? ( for ex if I roll 4-5-6 , i cast the spell with 11 +1 if near ww. If opponent doesnt unbind that I roll 16 dice and see how many 5+ i got? Am I right?

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1 hour ago, Tizianolol said:

Wait a sec, they said in this podcast if I give gnarloot artefact on warsong revenant i can roll 3 dice to see my casting role, i chose 2 highter rolls to see if I casted the spell, but when I resolve that spell i can use all 3 dice to see casting roll? ( for ex if I roll 4-5-6 , i cast the spell with 11 +1 if near ww. If opponent doesnt unbind that I roll 16 dice and see how many 5+ i got? Am I right?

I remember the part you're talking about. It was confusing. They were adding in the bonus from multiple turns of throne or vines, not using all three dice from the artefact. They also happened to get their math wrong, on top of everything else.

When using the Gnarlroot artefact, only the two dice you keep count for anything at all.

Edited by Havelocke
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