AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Landohammer]

So something that hit the army in a really personal way is Spite revs staying at 5 model squads.

This effectively kills the unit. Its now a max squad size of 15 and is a big waste of reinforcement points that are just better spent on Hunters or Dryads. Also, Tree Revenants points staying the same is another nail in their coffin. 

Kinda wish I didn't own 50 lol of them lol. 

Durthu and Drycha looking good though. May try to take both. I think RAW, Unique characters don't get allegiance spells anymore though. Hopefully thats gets clarified. 

[Pennydude]

15 hours ago, Havelocke said:

Treelord Ancient - 295 (+35)
The Biggest Loser. The Treelord Ancient saw an increase in points, while also being outclassed by new competition for its primary role in the army. The ancient benefits from the new rampages and heroic actions, and the improvements to wyldwoods indirectly benefited its warscroll spell, but there's a better alternative for just about everything the Ancient does. I suspect the Ancient will occasionally appear in lists to take advantage of its free wyldwood, but iI think it will be replaced by a Warsong, Treelord, or Durthu in most cases.

Okay I will agree that the TLA lost out but I don't agree that it's as big of a loser as you think.

TLA still bring immense utility to the army for being a hero, monster, and wizard.  The free woods is still great now with the flexibility of the new Awakened Wyldwood warscroll.  The stomp is still a huge gamechanger in combat and while he's not super great in combat, it can be a distraction.  I think the key here is his CA.  Being able to pop that in the Hero Phase and grant re-rolls of 1 to saves in a 12" bubble around itself AND anything wholly within 12" of any Kurnoth Hunter units is going to be huge in this edition.  Getting any sort of re-rolls on rolls, especially on saves, is going to be a premium thing to have.  I think that if you can include Cogs, TLA's stonks go up more.

[Pennydude]

@Landohammer Tree-Revs not getting changed is a very good thing in my eyes. 

[Landohammer]

25 minutes ago, Pennydude said:

@Landohammer Tree-Revs not getting changed is a very good thing in my eyes. 

Oh absolutely. And its definitely a good thing externally. But I hate it when a unit just gets made useless internally 

There is no reason to ever take spites anymore unless you just don't have the extra 10pts for Tree Revs. 

[Pennydude]

@Landohammer I have an idea for Spite-Revs for a battleshock shenanigans list but yes, I agree that Tree-Revs would be superior if you have the extra points.  Thankfully I now have 15 Tree-Revs built!

[Havelocke]

46 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

This effectively kills the unit.

I agree, and I am similarly crushed. I started my Sylvaneth collection with Drycha and a bunch of Spites, and they continue to be some of my favorite units in the army. It's especially frustrating because I feel like, prior to these new rules, they were actually very close to being relevant. If Drycha's Spitegrove had stuck around, I think Spite Rev hammers could have been a thing.

(Maybe not a totally optimal thing, but still a usable thing.)

47 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Unique characters don't get allegiance spells anymore though. Hopefully that gets clarified. 

@Pennydude made an interesting point back on page 189. Rule 27.3.1 states that Enhancements cannot be given to unique units. This particular phrasing is repeated in 27.3.2 and 27.3.3 for traits and artefacts, but not in 27.3.4 or 27.3.5 for spells and prayers. These are known, rather than given.

This interpretation could be debated, but I think it's solid, given that it mirrors second edition and most likely the intent of the designers. (Also, I love having indexed rules to reference now!)

29 minutes ago, Pennydude said:

Okay I will agree that the TLA lost out but I don't agree that it's as big of a loser as you think.

After spending some more time toying around with lists, I think you might be right. Something I didn't account for is that, with points going up and fewer models in lists overall, versatility becomes a bit more important.

The Ancient loses big to the Warsong in casting potency and mobility, but it edges out the warsong in ranged damage and unbracketed melee damage. On top of that, it adds the stomp, the free woods, and the free teleport for utility.

In some lists that want woods but don't care as much about magic, Dreadwood comes to mind, I can definitely see a strong argument for including the Ancient over the Warsong.

[Wachamba]

Am i understood right - no more balewind vortex? 😕

 

[a74xhx]

1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

I think RAW, Unique characters don't get allegiance spells anymore though. Hopefully thats gets clarified. 

 

2 minutes ago, Havelocke said:

 

@Pennydude made an interesting point back on page 189. Rule 27.3.1 states that Enhancements cannot be given to unique units. This particular phrasing is repeated in 27.3.2 and 27.3.3 for traits and artefacts, but not in 27.3.4 or 27.3.5 for spells and prayers. These are known, rather than given.

This interpretation could be debated, but I think it's solid, given that it mirrors second edition and most likely the intent of the designers. (Also, I love having indexed rules to reference now!)

As I read it, you give the Spell Lore enchantment to your army. This gives you a spell for each wizard.

[a74xhx]

Also, Wanderers missing from Allies list.

Stormcast, Deepkin and the Ironbark stuff only now.

[Pennydude]

21 minutes ago, Wachamba said:

Am i understood right - no more balewind vortex? 😕

 

Correct. Honestly, it’s for the better.

[Landohammer]

27 minutes ago, a74xhx said:

 

As I read it, you give the Spell Lore enchantment to your army. This gives you a spell for each wizard.

Yea my groups are arguing it both ways. They are arguing that "given" and "known" are two different things. I also point out that in the margins (where clarifications like this are placed) actually say "taking a spell lore enhancement allows every WIZARD to know 1 spell from a spell lore.

I feel like the underlining intent is pretty clear lol. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Landohammer

[Ravenrei]

31 minutes ago, a74xhx said:

Also, Wanderers missing from Allies list.

Stormcast, Deepkin and the Ironbark stuff only now.

This is rather strange isn't it? 

[Hoseman]

32 minutes ago, a74xhx said:

Also, Wanderers missing from Allies list.

Stormcast, Deepkin and the Ironbark stuff only now.

Seriously!!!!!???? This is so bad for me... I love mixing sometimes some eternal guard or shadow warriors for that oldschool Silvan elfs vibe... so bad...

 

[Wachamba]

14 hours ago, Arzalyn said:

Battalions wound be:

- Warlord: Arch, Wraith, Drycha and one Tree-rev unit.

Drycha - 10 wounds

[Arzalyn]

5 minutes ago, Wachamba said:

Drycha - 10 wounds

She is the Commander, which doesn't care about her wounds (should had put her at the start of the list to avoid confusion).

[Havelocke]

24 minutes ago, Hoseman said:

Seriously!!!!!???? This is so bad for me... I love mixing sometimes some eternal guard or shadow warriors for that oldschool Silvan elfs vibe... so bad...

Alternatively, this is very good for you, if it's a sign of things to come...

[Hoseman]

2 minutes ago, Havelocke said:

Alternatively, this is very good for you, if it's a sign of things to come...

I would love, and I think maybe that cursed city hero set on sylvaneth instead of cities is a clue, but it was a clue too the mistweaver from silver tower and nothing seen about it yet.

I find nice the idea of making new different units, like the centaurs or faun like the underworlds warband. That feeling of the old Orion (wich I own) and nostalgia hiting hard... but then I realize Gw is not going to make more troops for us, they preffer releasing more armys like shadow elfs, new orks, maybe chaos dwarfs.... we have scenery, endless, a relatively new battletome, and we got 2 new heroes + alarielle rework this last year so I think we are done for a wile

[Jazarith]

I'm getting back into Sylvaneth after the Wyldwood changes and the Warsong Revenant model was too amazing to ignore. I don't have the current battletome for Sylvaneth. With the loss of all battletome battalions, the change in rules/points would you wait for our next battletome or is there a reason to go ahead and get it?

[Havelocke]

2 minutes ago, Jazarith said:

I'm getting back into Sylvaneth after the Wyldwood changes and the Warsong Revenant model was too amazing to ignore. I don't have the current battletome for Sylvaneth. With the loss of all battletome battalions, the change in rules/points would you wait for our next battletome or is there a reason to go ahead and get it?

Unit warscrolls, glades, artefacts, and spells are all still relevant pieces of the current battletome, but all of that information is also easily findable on list building apps and around the web. It's also missing the three warscrolls currently only available in BR:Kragnos.

Spoiler

It really comes down to whether or not you like having a physical reference for your hobby. I tend to buy the books because I like sitting down with a big stack of references and feel like a wizard. Not everybody cares about that.

It is also entirely possible that the book will be replaced at some point in the next year. You should ask yourself if you'll have buyers remorse, should that happen.

"Buy it if you want it" feels a little dismissive, but that's kinda what it comes down to.

[Wachamba]

26 minutes ago, Arzalyn said:

She is the Commander, which doesn't care about her wounds (should had put her at the start of the list to avoid confusion).

Oh, now its clear

I really like your list, but I want to try out the Warsong MW bomb, so I'll change it up a bit

Spoiler                     Allegiance: Sylvaneth               Glade: Gnarlroot                                 Leaders:     Battalions:           General: Warsong Revenant   Battle Regiment     275                       Command trait: Nurtured By Magic (Gnarlroot)               Artefact: Chalice Of Nectar (Gnarlroot)               Deepwood spell:                                     Branchwraith   Warlord     95     Artefact: Spiritsong Stave               Deepwood spell: Throne of Vines                                   Drycha Hamadreth   Warlord     330     Artefact:                 Deepwood spell: Regrowth                                   Arch-Revenant   Warlord     105     Artefact:                 Deepwood spell:                                                                       Battleline                   Dryads - 20   Battle Regiment     190                         Dryads - 20   Battle Regiment     190                         Tree Revenants - 5   Warlord     80                       Unit                   Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes - 6   Battle Regiment     430                         Kurnoth Hunters with Swords - 3   Battle Regiment     225                                                                             Behemoths                 Endless Spells / Terrain / Extra Command Point                                   Umbral Spellportal         70                                                                                               Battalions                                   Wounds           117     Total points           1990

 

[Wachamba]

Update my file, added battalions to units, changed the cost of Endless spell to correct. 

Sylvaneth 3 v1_1.xlsx

[Mirage8112]

3 hours ago, Landohammer said:

So something that hit the army in a really personal way is Spite revs staying at 5 model squads.

This effectively kills the unit. Its now a max squad size of 15 and is a big waste of reinforcement points that are just better spent on Hunters or Dryads.

 

2 hours ago, Havelocke said:

I agree, and I am similarly crushed. I started my Sylvaneth collection with Drycha and a bunch of Spites, and they continue to be some of my favorite units in the army. It's especially frustrating because I feel like, prior to these new rules, they were actually very close to being relevant. If Drycha's Spitegrove had stuck around, I think Spite Rev hammers could have been a thing.

(Maybe not a totally optimal thing, but still a usable thing.)

I hate to be that guy who always goes "Well AksHUallY" but....

I still think spites are very viable, but there isn't really much of reason to take them in anything other than Dreadwood list (which is where they belong anyway). We took them everywhere before because they were easily our cheapest battalion and the easiest way to get access to a second CA and artifact. sure we used them, but that's not really how they were best utilized.

Spite may have gone up 10 points, but they're still a ducking steal at 70 pts. The changes to saves and CA really benefits them. Units can't stack saves past +1 anymore, and they only reason they would is to negate rend (which spites don't have). Units can't be debuffed past -1 to hit, which means at absolute worst they hit on 4's. The units they are fighting aren't as tough or hard to hit, they are smaller, and by-and-large are more expensive. It's also not terribly hard to get them to a 4+ save, as they should probably be fighting in cover anyway.  

A few pages back, somebody mentioned the Horrorgast, Drycha, Warsong, Dreadwood, Vengeful Skullroot combo. A unit of 10 spites will have 30 attacks, 3's x 3's RR 1's to hit and wound. The enemy will have a -3 to bravery, will have to RR successful battleshock tests, can't use command abilities to make units immune to Battleshock, and have an extra 2D3 model flee when they fail. 

Throw flaming weapons on them for extra lols. 

And even if you only pull off 50%-75% of the above combo, battleshock is going to hurt for any unit who isn't innately immune to battleshock.  

 

2 hours ago, Havelocke said:

After spending some more time toying around with lists, I think you might be right. Something I didn't account for is that, with points going up and fewer models in lists overall, versatility becomes a bit more important.

The Ancient loses big to the Warsong in casting potency and mobility, but it edges out the warsong in ranged damage and unbracketed melee damage. On top of that, it adds the stomp, the free woods, and the free teleport for utility.

In some lists that want woods but don't care as much about magic, Dreadwood comes to mind, I can definitely see a strong argument for including the Ancient over the Warsong.

 

I think the ancient is a strong contender for a place in our lists. There's only two units on the battletome that have an aura CA (TL and Alarielle), and Alarielle's used in the already crowded combat phase. The ability to give RR 1's to the entire army (potentially) is huge in the new edition. 

Also, paired with a healing endless spell like lifeswarm or the wyrm, the TLA can basically heal 2d3 every hero phase without worrying about a cast (and even pair with vesperal gem for d6 if you have to). Paired with cogs he's a reliable 2 spell caster. There's a lot of versatility here depending on the type of game you want to play. 

Just about everything in playable in the right combination. Hell, even stuff that didn't look viable before (looking at you Oakenbrow) now seems much more feasible to play. Oakenbrow with a bunch of reenforced dryads, a TLA, Durthu and double treelords looks like it might actually be viable on the tabletop. All the monsters can take 4-5 wounds before they bracket, dryads will be immune to Battleshock, double trees at two spots on the table (durthu+ TL, Ancient +TL) for 2 tomb rolls per unit, rampages, and plenty of easy access to healing on 3+ save monsters that can easily be given  2+ and RR 1's. 

I think our play has really opened up with the new changes. Time to think outside the Winterleaf/Gnarlroot/Dreadwood box. Hell, even in those boxes there's a lot of new way to build a viable competitive army.  
  

Edited June 18, 2021 by Mirage8112

[Havelocke]

You get the eternal optimist merit badge for sure, Mirage.

 

4 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

I still thinks spite are viable, but there isn't really much of reason to take them in anything other than Dreadwood list (which is where they belong anyway). 

I'm not sure, but it's not gonna stop me from trying them. I'm actually going to run them in Gnarlroot, first. If they're supported by Drycha, they've got the same buffs as they do in Dreadwood, and I think they synergize well with a magic-heavy army, since they want to get all those endless spells off. Tragically, flaming weapons has to target one of the caster's melee weapons. That would have been an insane combo, otherwise.

 

13 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

I think the ancient is a strong contender for a place in our lists. There's only two units on the battletome that have an aura CA (TL and Alarielle), and Alarielle's used in the already crowded combat phase. The ability to give RR 1's to the entire army (potentially) is huge in the new edition.

Yeah, I'm already rethinking my position on the Ancient. He's a swiss army knife. I'm curious to see exactly how his aura works with the new command ability rules. Do all units within 12" receive a command, for example, and does it work with Envoys of the Everqueen or not? (I don't think it's a given.

 

23 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

I hate to be that guy who always goes "Well AksHUallY" but....

I love it! You always fuel good discussion. 😉

[Landohammer]

6 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

 

I hate to be that guy who always goes "Well AksHUallY" but....

I still thinks spite are viable, but there isn't really much of reason to take them in anything other than Dreadwood list (which is where they belong anyway). We took them before because they were easily our cheapest battalion and the easiest way to get access to a second CA and artifact. sure we used them, but that's not really how they were best utilized.

Spite may have gone up 10 points, but they're still a ducking steal at 70 pts. The changes to saves and CA really benefits them. Units can't stack saves past +1 anymore, and they only reason they would is to negate rend (which spites don't have). Units can't be debuffed past -1 to hit, which means at absolute worst they hit on 4's. The units they are fighting aren't as tough or hard to hit, they are smaller, and by-and-large are more expensive. It's also not terribly hard to get them to a 4+ save, as they should probably be fighting in cover anyway.  

A few pages back, somebody mentioned the Horrorgast, Drycha, Warsong, Dreadwood, Vengeful Skullroot combo. A unit of 10 spites will have 30 attacks, 3's x 3's RR 1's to hit and wound. The enemy will have a -3 to bravery, will have to RR successful battleshock tests, can't use command abilities to make units immune to Battleshock, and have an extra 2D3 model flee when they fail. 

Throw flaming weapons on them for extra lols. 

And even if you only pull off 50%-75% of the above combo, battleshock is going to hurt for any unit who isn't innately immune to battleshock.  

 

 

   

 


  

So I don't have a problem with the Spite statline or points. Its actually fine. Its the fact that taking a unit of 10 burns a finite resource and a unit of 5 isn't really a functional threat outside of a screen or speedbump. The really frustrating part is that the decision was clearly based on how they are sold, rather than their functionality. For example, Thralls are a very similar unit in terms of role, cost and model yet they are taken in base units of 10. 

But wait there is more. Under the new coherency rules, a unit of 10 is unlikely to get all of their attacks. If you honeycomb, you can probably stretch 6 guys into combat for a whopping 18-19 attacks. (you can't break coherency to pile in to my knowledge)

But hey, their leadership debuff is solid right? But only if they survive to the battleshock phase to provide it. Under the new rules, the active player takes all of their tests first, So even if you get lucky, and don't get wiped out on return attacks, (which is rare in my tourney experience with spites, they ALWAYS get wiped), then you have to test on bravery 6 or burn a CP to save like 3 guys. 

Flaming Weapons is on the caster only. But as a side note I'm hoping the Unique/Spell Enhancement clarification gets made soon so we can potentially put that on Drycha

So yes, on paper, the Spites look fine. But in real life 3rd ed matched play they have been indirectly nerfed into the ground

 

[Pennydude]

@Havelocke The auras stack and are usable with the Kurnoths being a beacon. There’s no unit receiving the CA but everything in range is affected.