AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Heksagon]

1 hour ago, Kaylethia said:

Is there any kind of confirmation that shooting flying targets ignored terrain effects? As I've read it, flying units ignore terrain effects, but I'm not sure this is a two-way interaction.

Glad we have confirmation on the woods working this way, it'll make things more interesting for sure.

 

Yeah, it's on the warscroll.

[Popisdead]

2 hours ago, Heksagon said:

Yeah, it's on the warscroll.

It totally baffled me people argued about this.  Citadel woods block LOS and Sylvaneth Wildwoods are made of Citadel Woods.  I saw it pretty logical.  The FB groups are super heated over it

[Mirage8112]

double post

Edited July 24, 2018 by Mirage8112

[Mirage8112]

1 hour ago, Popisdead said:

It totally baffled me people argued about this.  Citadel woods block LOS and Sylvaneth Wildwoods are made of Citadel Woods.  I saw it pretty logical.  The FB groups are super heated over it

It's a big change. Yuge in fact. I think people were arguing about it not based on what the rules say, but that they felt it was too powerful to be true. 

[Freejack02]

17 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

It's a big change. Yuge in fact. I think people were arguing about it not based on what the rules say, but that they felt it was too powerful to be true. 

Just speculative, but do you think this could push Sylvaneth into the "tier 1" of competitive play? Terrain on demand that can block LoS I agree is huge, and combined with Alarielle/Summoning buffs I feel can make Sylvaneth catch a LOT of armies flat-footed with board control. This seems to make Sylvaneth quite a force to be reckoned with. 

Edited July 24, 2018 by Freejack02

[Mirage8112]

18 hours ago, romhi said:

Do you think the lens are really worth it considering that they can only be used once per battle round? It is possible that I am jaded from playing against Nagash or all the Tzeentch armies at my local shop but reducing the damage of one spell from the 8-10+ spells that I see incoming is a bit weak. I would rather use everything I have to delete as many caster as possible.

I actually wrote the list before the change. But even with the change, I still think it's a solid choice. Here's my reasoning.

Since Wyldwoods now block LoS to any model that cannot fly, any models blocked blocked by wyldwoods have pretty much nothing to fear from any spell which requires LoS. 90% of the Tzeentch spells require LoS,. That means even if your opponent can cast 8-10 spells per phase, in reality, they'll only be 3-4 in their arsenal that do not require LoS. Of those 3-4, you can probably expect to unbind 1-2. That means you're not eating 8-10 spells in practice; it will probably be more like 2-3.

Now, most of the single target spells in the game do anywhere from 1 to D3 damage per spell, and if the law of averages apply that's about 6 damage. This list has 2 casters, both of which have regrowth. So, assuming you take 6 damage a turn, the lans can be expected to reduce that by D3 (obviously you want to save it for a spell you failed to unbind that does 2-3 wounds) or 2 on average. If you can get at least 1 regrowth off from either of your two casters, you can pretty reliably negate whatever magic damage you've suffered. 

The other factor is what item would you take otherwise? Consider the fact that the item must go on either of the two lower level casters, so items which augment weapon damage are probably not a good investment. You want those caster hanging back from the front lines to form your magic defense, and even with weapon items they won't be particularly scary due to a low number of attacks and lack of rend. So what to give them instead? So that either leaves shooting weapons from Malign sorcery book (most are roll a fixed # of dice that do 1 mortal wound on a 6+ or something), which we won't be able to use thanks to woods now blocking LoS, or one of the casting/utility items. 

Now, there are a few other items that tempt me. The doppelgänger cloak look awesome (cant be chosen as the target of an attack unless they've already atatcked), but its meant for CC heroes. The aetherquartz brooch (command points back on a 5+) might be good, but I'm not sure how essential command points will really be to this build. Spellmirror might be as good as the lens (on a 5+ a spell "does not have any effect", but roll a 1 and the spellmirror can't be used again), but my concern is that it's not quite as reliable as the lens. There are a few more healing items, but if you play your cards right, your casters shouldn't be in need of healing. 

Granted the ability to use the lens on any spell would have been much better. But the ability to reduce a single spell damage by d3 could be the difference between Durthu hitting for 6 damage or for d6 damage. Considering I can't really think of anything better, it seems like a good defensive choice. 

 

4 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

Just speculative, but do you think this could push Sylvaneth into the "tier 1" of competitive play? Terrain on demand that can block LoS I agree is huge, and combined with Alarielle/Summoning buffs I feel can make Sylvaneth catch a LOT of armies flat-footed with board control. This seems to make Sylvaneth quite a force to be reckoned with. 

Based on my experience at Adepticon, I think Sylvaneth are already pretty competitive. I believe the 3rd place list was a Sylvaneth/Seraphon list and had I won my last game I would have placed 25th overall with my Dreadwood list. Would the extra 200pts I would have had from prices changes + LoS blocking Wyldwoods made a difference? Probably.  

It's difficult to tell because a lot of stuff changed/got cheaper for just about everybody. The wyldwood change however is pretty big mechanical change for our opponents. Not being able to shoot or use magic to pry camping units out of the forest will be pretty hard to swallow. But at the same time, we won't be able to just sit in the woods and shoot out/over them either. Remember, ranged attacks like Drycha's Flitterfuries and Squirmlings require line of sight, so in order to use those types of attacks you'll have to leave the safety of the woods. It makes us more aggressive, which is fine because we can now summon dryads to cover backfield objectives while our main army takes the fight to the front lines.    

It helps and hurts us, but I suspect it will hurt our opponents a lot more. 

 

Edited July 24, 2018 by Mirage8112

[Dallaen]

Something of interest in the Deepkin rules errata as well.

Page 94 – The Ethersea Change the final paragraph to: ‘An Idoneth Deepkin army can include up to 2 Gloomtide Shipwreck terrain features. After territories have been chosen but before armies are set up, you can set up the Gloomtide Shipwrecks anywhere on the battlefield, more than 1” from any other terrain features, more than 6” from any other Gloomtide Shipwrecks, and more than 6” from where any objectives will be located at the start of the first battle round. If both players can set up a terrain feature before armies are set up, they must roll-off, and the winner can choose the order in which the terrain features are set up.’

I wonder if this applies to The woods we place before the game starts as well or even the Nurgle forests for that matter?  The important part being 6" from an objective.  It would seem odd to penalize just Deepkin and not any other faction for beginning game terrain placement.

[Freejack02]

15 minutes ago, Dallaen said:

Something of interest in the Deepkin rules errata as well.

Page 94 – The Ethersea Change the final paragraph to: ‘An Idoneth Deepkin army can include up to 2 Gloomtide Shipwreck terrain features. After territories have been chosen but before armies are set up, you can set up the Gloomtide Shipwrecks anywhere on the battlefield, more than 1” from any other terrain features, more than 6” from any other Gloomtide Shipwrecks, and more than 6” from where any objectives will be located at the start of the first battle round. If both players can set up a terrain feature before armies are set up, they must roll-off, and the winner can choose the order in which the terrain features are set up.’

I wonder if this applies to The woods we place before the game starts as well or even the Nurgle forests for that matter?  The important part being 6" from an objective.  It would seem odd to penalize just Deepkin and not any other faction for beginning game terrain placement.

If Wyldwoods weren't errata'd, it doesn't apply to them... surely they would knock out all the relevant terrain features at once. 

[vesco]

So about the kurnoth huter's 'Envoys of the Everqueen' ability  how does it work with TLA's command ability?
Do they have to be within 10 inches from the TLA in order to measure the distance from them instead of the TLA?
Also, can i choose every kurnoth hunter unit or just once?

[Heksagon]

1 hour ago, vesco said:

So about the kurnoth huter's 'Envoys of the Everqueen' ability  how does it work with TLA's command ability?
Do they have to be within 10 inches from the TLA in order to measure the distance from them instead of the TLA?
Also, can i choose every kurnoth hunter unit or just once?

Based on FAQ's wording: you choose one Kurnoth Hunters unit and measure 10" bubble from this unit. They don't have to be close to the Treelord.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Heksagon

[Popisdead]

@Mirage8112 I've been looking at Ironbark for a bit and thinking about the viability of a 30-man Tree Revenant unit.  A buddy takes 30-man thralls (while they have a fair bit that differs them) it was something I've been tempted to try.  Or do you think this is just not wise?

[romhi]

16 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

The other factor is what item would you take otherwise?

Yeah, the only possible artefact that I would consider as a subtitute is the Gryph-feather Charm on a wraith. -2 to hit makes a really sticky hero. On the other hand, and in my personal case, my opponent's LoC and  Tzaangor Shamans/Skyfires laugh at the new rules thanks to their Fly ability.

I feel like the nerf was a bit to potent, I was really happy about Lens of Refraction because I thinks it was a step in the right direction and I understand that it could be considered a bit op against magic heavy armies, but the newest change made me sad. I am really looking forward to similar items/abilities/tactics/traits that could be used against wizards. Just thinking about trying to unbind against a LoC or Nagash gives me nightmares. 

[Thebiggesthat]

So finally got a game with my Sylvaneth (great considering I'm taking them to BOBO!) And have a questions

If a unit charges me in a wood, do I roll after each model moves in? 

 

[Tommm]

That’s correct. You roll for each specific model (so if its carrying a banner, the banner will die).

Edited July 26, 2018 by Tommm

[Thebiggesthat]

Cheers dude. So with Nighthaunt, they attack immediately if they get a charge of 10, so do we roll for spooky wood mishaps before this? 

[romhi]

16 minutes ago, Thebiggesthat said:

Cheers dude. So with Nighthaunt, they attack immediately if they get a charge of 10, so do we roll for spooky wood mishaps before this? 

In my humble opinion they roll for the scenery rule first, as it takes effect 'during' the charge/run move itself. The wave of terror attack takes place after they finished the charge but before the combat phase begins. Did not play against Nighthaunt yet so I might be wrong, but this is the  way I would decipher the rules.

[Atreyu]

Most of the Nighthaunt units are flying...

 

[Tommm]

For the purposes of a Charge through a Wyldwood first complete the Charge action - to satisfy any other conditions that may trigger from the action of a succesful charge.  Such as pile ins any special rules associated such as the Wave of Terror attack. Once the Charge movement has been completed, then roll for the Wyldwood ability for any individual models that triggered the ability.

The distinction herefor Flying models is that the rules for the Wyldwood specifically state if a model ends such a movement in the wood, so whilst a flying model would ignore the rule for movement/charging through, they would not bypass the part about ending a movement in the wood and still have to roll.

[IndigoGirls]

Two things...

First, on the topic of artifacts, I can't help but think the ethereal amulet is an underrepresented choice on TLA. I'm a fan of 3+ re-roll 1s ignore all modifiers. To do the exact math, you will let through more (-) rend and (-1) rend attacks (as compared to 2+ re-roll 1s ignore rend -1) but you're still only taking a wound 1 out of every 12 that gets through and you now have access to a different general trait. That gives the TLA some interesting choices besides Gnarled Warrior. Personally, I've been enjoying taking the amulet and warsinger. My spellcaster heroes (wraith and wych) are taking artifacts to boost their spell casting, as we don't have any natural +s to cast, I think those items really shine on the little guys. Especially wraith who is already fairly sticky with LOS and Wyldwood proximity for -2 to hit from range. Now, once a round lens is still powerful for soaking up spell damage that goes off and I still think we will see a lot of it.

Second, has anyone considered Overgrown Wilderness combined with Dreadwood? I see Ambush as a great option (for certain scenarios/matches) where a small hero can ambush to an objective with acorn and plant it. In that way, only flyers can get at them and you've teleported to an objective immediately while putting down a piece of LOS blocking terrain. In my opinion, Overgrown Wilderness is a powerful boost for Sylvaneth as you get to control the when and where. With smart placement you should be able to reduce what your opponent's options. That being said, messing up the placement now comes with a line of sight cost. But does it really? I usually have trouble fitting it in but Treesong offers forgiveness for poor wood placement plus the ability to move LOS terrain around. It feels stronger now than previously.

[Freejack02]

1 hour ago, IndigoGirls said:

I'm a fan of 3+ re-roll 1s ignore all modifiers. To do the exact math, you will let through more (-) rend and (-1) rend attacks (as compared to 2+ re-roll 1s ignore rend -1) but you're still only taking a wound 1 out of every 12 that gets through and you now have access to a different general trait.

I'd like to see your math on this, because just off the top of my head the "1 in 12" is wrong. You're taking at least every 2 that is rolled, which is 1 in 6 - then you're taking 33% of all 1's rolled (the reroll kicks in, and only 1 in 3 fails the reroll). If I'm correct that's 4/18, or [1 in 4.5]. 

That's assuming a naked 3+ with reroll 1's, and ignoring modifiers. It's great against high rend units, but I think most of the time the traditional 2+ rr1's ignore -1 rend is superior (although it requires the extra command trait). 

[IndigoGirls]

57 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

I'd like to see your math on this, because just off the top of my head the "1 in 12" is wrong. You're taking at least every 2 that is rolled, which is 1 in 6 - then you're taking 33% of all 1's rolled (the reroll kicks in, and only 1 in 3 fails the reroll). If I'm correct that's 4/18, or [1 in 4.5]. 

That's assuming a naked 3+ with reroll 1's, and ignoring modifiers. It's great against high rend units, but I think most of the time the traditional 2+ rr1's ignore -1 rend is superior (although it requires the extra command trait). 

Apologizes, my math was a little off the mark and hastily done. I took the time to do the correct math, which is as simple as 1 minus the probability of failure (1/3) times the probability of failure (1/3). In the end your 3+ rerolling 1s ignoring modifiers passes  8/9 times or 88.88% of the time. My bad on communicating it to be 1/12, it's actually 1 out of 9 to wounds will not be saved.

I think the two options are simply different but equally viable. Against rend of (-2) /(-3) the amulet is favorable. Against (-) and (-1) rend it is certainly worse. However, the opportunity cost of an artifact and trait cannot be denied. In taking something like Warsinger, you increase your charge probabilities (for more than just the general), which is significant. It also frees up Oaken Armor for another character (relevant to lists with a Durthu and TLA). I brought up the amulet as a lesser discussed artifact that's worth a look.  Also, I felt like there wasn't a ton of conversation around realm artifacts on the big trees.

tl;dr ethereal amulet - strong against high rend threats, allows more flexibility weak  against hordes with low or no rend

gnarled warrior and oaken armor - strong against hordes with low or no rend weak against high rend threats, limited flexibility

[Freejack02]

13 minutes ago, IndigoGirls said:

Apologizes, my math was a little off the mark and hastily done. I took the time to do the correct math, which is as simple as 1 minus the probability of failure (1/3) times the probability of failure (1/3). In the end your 3+ rerolling 1s ignoring modifiers passes  8/9 times or 88.88% of the time. My bad on communicating it to be 1/12, it's actually 1 out of 9 to wounds will not be saved.

No... this still isn't right. You're calculating 3+ reroll all failures instead of just reroll 1's. Like I said before, even if you assume you succeed on every single '1' reroll, you still are guaranteed to fail every '2' rolled - which is 1/6 or 16.67%. That means, even without diving into the reroll 1 specifics, your absolute best case average scenario would be 5/6 success, or 83.33%. 

When accounting for the reroll 1's, your success rate should be 77.78%, or 14/18. 

[IndigoGirls]

@Freejack02 thanks so much for the math help! It's not my speciality ? you were right in the end!

I think my tl;dr still stands though!

[Freejack02]

5 hours ago, IndigoGirls said:

tl;dr ethereal amulet - strong against high rend threats, allows more flexibility weak  against hordes with low or no rend

gnarled warrior and oaken armor - strong against hordes with low or no rend weak against high rend threats, limited flexibility

Agreed!

[Justinbot]

On ‎7‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 4:03 AM, Tommm said:

For the purposes of a Charge through a Wyldwood first complete the Charge action - to satisfy any other conditions that may trigger from the action of a succesful charge.  Such as pile ins any special rules associated such as the Wave of Terror attack. Once the Charge movement has been completed, then roll for the Wyldwood ability for any individual models that triggered the ability.

The distinction herefor Flying models is that the rules for the Wyldwood specifically state if a model ends such a movement in the wood, so whilst a flying model would ignore the rule for movement/charging through, they would not bypass the part about ending a movement in the wood and still have to roll.

Is this the accepted interpretation of the rules for flying units in Wyldwoods? I'm going to be playing some Nighthaunt players soon who might be skeptical, just want to make sure I'm getting it right ?