AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[overtninja]

15 hours ago, ElectricPaladin said:

English is such a dumpster fire of a language.

 

15 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

It is! English is all kinds of f-kd up. That’s why its a super interesting thing to study. 

Can confirm, as someone gainfully employed teaching English as a second language in a non-English-speaking country. English is basically a dogpile of interesting things from other languages smashed together. It's a history of being sandwiched between many other languages, cultural jealousy, conquests, imperialism, and a general willingness to poach words, improvise or just make stuff up, as there were really no rules about spelling, vocabulary or even grammar really until like 150 years ago. It's kind of wonderful, like a complete train wreck that somehow arrives at it's destination on time in a smoking heap, with few casualties.

[Easytyger]

17 hours ago, tman3257 said:

I don't believe you are correct on this for a couple of reasons.

First I refer you to this article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/21/who-fights-first/

Our new stomp "go last" ability does NOT have the clause that turns "Strike First" into cancelling out and "striking normal".  It simply says they have to go last. Period. Not if they would go first to cancel it out, just straight up back of the line "you go last".  This would entirely cancel Gristlegore's strike first ability during our turn for sure because our stomp activates first and turns them into striking last.  This gets a little fuzzier during their turn.  Their trait says they fight at the start of the combat phase.  Our ability triggers at the start of the combat phase.  According to this article since it is their turn they get to resolve ALL "start of combat" abilities before we get to resolve any of ours.  This would mean he gets to strike first before we even get to stomp.

In Slaanesh's case I do not think that FAQ applies at all.  Slaanesh tells our model to strike last, we tell Slaanesh to strike last.  You do not have 2 abilities that conflict at all.  You simply are setting the combat order of both models to the end of the turn.  When it hits end of turn, if it is our turn we get to hit first with ALL of the things Slaanesh affected with "strike last" then they get to attack with all of the things we stomped on.  During Slaanesh's turn if he confers strike last to us, and us to him, he gets to strike first with ALL of the models we made strike last, then we get to go with all models.

 

This is the correct interpretation.

 

[Zanzou]

So can someone explain...

1 ) What is the merit of ever running 2 TLA at 300 points each? Their spell as well as their silent communion do not stack.. So why would you?

2) Because of number 1, why the heck didn't they make Lords of the Clan 2-4 Treelords and 1-3 Treelord Ancients, instead of the other way around?  All of a sudden that battalion would have actually been decent.  Are you guys just forcing it into your lists because you want more artefacts?

[Sleepa]

35 minutes ago, Zanzou said:

So can someone explain...

1 ) What is the merit of ever running 2 TLA at 300 points each? Their spell as well as their silent communion do not stack.. So why would you?

2) Because of number 1, why the heck didn't they make Lords of the Clan 2-4 Treelords and 1-3 Treelord Ancients, instead of the other way around?  All of a sudden that battalion would have actually been decent.  Are you guys just forcing it into your lists because you want more artefacts?

I'm pretty sure the only reason to ever run two TLAs is to meet the reqs for LotC. It's tied for cheapest battalion and the ability isn't completely useless. I completely agree with you though, I don't see the point in ever taking two TLAs. I don't understand why they didn't at least make the TLA a native double-caster. 300 points is so much for a single spell wizard with no bonuses to cast or unbind. It's not like TLAs are a force to be reckoned with in melee either. Three decent attacks that go down as they take wounds, and one very mediocre attack.  My theory is that their point-costing algorithm really values the new stomp and "Walk the spirit paths" highly, because otherwise these things should be 240 points, max. I think the new stomp is also why they didn't buff the heck out of tree lords. It remains to be see if it's actually work taking these models. Now that every wizard in a Sylvaneth army knows the woods spell, it might be a better use of points to just take Drycha and a bunch of Branchwraiths, with maybe an Arch-Revenant in there for good measure.

I really want to explore some Sylvaneth builds, but the "new" TLAs are a huge let-down, and they make LotC a super-awkward battalion.

[Matt Large]

40 minutes ago, Zanzou said:

So can someone explain...

1 ) What is the merit of ever running 2 TLA at 300 points each? Their spell as well as their silent communion do not stack.. So why would you?

2) Because of number 1, why the heck didn't they make Lords of the Clan 2-4 Treelords and 1-3 Treelord Ancients, instead of the other way around?  All of a sudden that battalion would have actually been decent.  Are you guys just forcing it into your lists because you want more artefacts?

Some scenarios require wizards in order to take objectives. You get a fairly tanky monster/hero/wizard that can do multiple rolls. I quite like the Lords of the clan as it is, as I imagine the first artefact would go on one of the Ancients, and the second one you gain has a nice  Ancient ready to go for it. 

 

[Mirage8112]

17 hours ago, Kairos Tejedestinos said:

I don't really like the Dreadwood choice for the list tho, harvestboon probably could do better imo. Better trait for durthu, better Command ability most of the time, you could even ignore the Arch-revenant altogether.

When it comes to building an alpha strike in the first turn of the game, yes. Harvestboon can do everything the Dreadwood can do cheaper and more effectively. 

The problem with Harvestboon is that you can’t aways Alpha-strike in the first game turn. Either because the enemy is out of range for a forest drop, blocked by terrain (we can’t even agree on how much terrain we should expect on the board), we fail the casting on 1 or 2 of the endless spells need to put everything into combat at 9”,  or they are just prepared for the Alpha and deploy defensive formation on a battleplan like knife to the heart. 

Also, alpha-strike isn’t just about damage it’s also about movement. 

With Dreadwood, I basically get a free re-deploy at the end of every movement phase, and most of my army can already teleport through the woods.  I can move a unit of spites within 18” of any hero, and then set them up where ever I want. I can even bring a unit in from off the board at the door of the movement phase next to a hero, then remove them from the woods and set them up again (since the free set-up happens at the end of the movement phase). I can buff just about every unit on the board with the arch-rev between his move and CA range (12” move + 5 if endless spells are out +18” range = 30”-35” range from furthest friendly model. I can also fly to intervene in models and terrain don’t matter, I could also run if I needed an extra couple of inches). That mean the enemy can’t hide a support caster, war machine, or ranged unit anywhere on the board in my turn no matter where my woods are (unless he hides them in the very far corners of the board, which is just as good as not being there) . Harvestboon can’t do any of that.  

In Dreadwood, spites are absolutely lethal. 20 spites will RR 1’s (no matter whose phase it is), and will do roughly 24 wounds before saves. Buffed spites will do 32. That’s enough to take out a moderate sized unit or monster pretty easily. Plus, I have all my Treelords to force fight last to make sure he either burns his CP on battleshock immunity for multiple units across the board, or lose D3+1 from the outcasts battalion*, possible RR successful tests. I know there’s a lot of things that have Battleshock immunity, but there’s also a lot of things that don’t. 

Harvetboon’s buffs are all dependent on getting a charge off. Fail the charge and you might as well have a regular unit just sitting there, waiting to get charged next turn. I really like Harvestboon as a battalion (and I’m planning on playing it) but I see it more as a front-line-fighter battalion using Free-spirits extra movement to set up hunters/durthu for a second-turn charge. The extra damage will be really helpful with breaking lines of resilient troops (like plaguebearers) but it’s not really made to get behind enemy lines and cause havoc in the later turns of the game. 
 

17 hours ago, Kairos Tejedestinos said:

The list i am going to try out first is going to be:

Gnarlroot

Drycha @ 320
TLA, Nurtured by magic, the vesperal gem, regrowth @ 300
TLA, chalice of nectar, verdurous harmony @ 300
Branchwraith, spirit song stave, throne of vines @ 80

5 Spite revenants @ 60
5 Spite revenants @ 60
5 Spite revenants @ 60
5 Spite revenants @ 60

3 Kurnouth Hunters with bows @ 200
3 Kurnouth Hunters with bows @ 200
1 Treeman @ 200

Battallions

Lords of the clan
Outcasts

CP : 2
Total : 2000

I chose Gnarlroot for a few reasons:

- Rerolling 1s to hit work with shooting, not only melee. That way i can attempt to play a shooty/magic attrition list (i am a WE player at heart, i love kiting :P), and even if i decide later on to switch the kurnouth to scythes, i don't need to rely on charges or paying 100 points for the arch revenant (which i won't have, thx GW) to get the rerolls. Also drycha rerolling ones on her 20 attack shooting attack is pretty nice.

- Easy extra healing. Vesperal gem + nurtured by magic means 1d3+1d6 auto heal when needed. Or 1d3 heal + other spells. Good thing that now we can summon trees anyways!   

- Good casting artifact. Chalice of nectar. I wanted to make a cast heavy list, and we already struggle getting artifacts for all characters.

 

Now on the list. The idea is use revenants as chaff. The branchwraith will first turn be as far away as possible and cast throne of vines, and then summon some dryads, from there on she will be teleporting (which does not count as movement) and summong driads and trees. TLA's will summon trees of their own and then use their spell. And meanwhile i dedicate myself to score and chip away. Not sure what spell for drycha. Treesong is probably the one i will end up, just to get rerolling to wound on melee, since many things in the army wound on 3+ (even if their damage output is subpar).

Changes that could happen:

I could remove one unit of spite revenants and get endless spell that gives one unit +3 to charges. I think i would so if i changed the kurnouth hunters to a big 6 man scythe unit, but only for that.

I really like your casting set-up between units and choices of artifacts, but I think your casters and damage dealers are a bit spread out and are working at cross-purposes to each other. 

I’d be concerned with LOS issue since the only damage dealing spell you have relies on WW and they block LoS. He wont be able to shoot you, but you wont be able to shoot him either and that’s where the majority of your damage is coming from. Lose Drycha to bad round of combat or a spell nuke (since many don’t require LoS) and your list won’t have any teeth. 

I think a list like this would really benefit from some drayds to hold the enemy in place for multiple turns. Otherwise why have Verdurous Harmony? If your spites are chaff, they wont survive long enough to be brought back (they’ll just die completely) and even a group of 3 hunters can be taken off the board by a big enough unit.

Drayds wont. They’ll have a 3+ save in the forest, But it might be better to put the forest out in front, and then set the Drayds up 2-3 deep so they’re all within 6” of the forest. Leave a 2” gap between the forest and the drayds. You can put the TLA behind the very front line (1 row of dryads in front) and then 1 unit of chaff in front of that. 

Now your dryads all still have -1 hit, they can also be BS immune from the allegiance ability, the enemy still has to fight in the forest and you still have LOS with your ranged units. Use the TLA’s command ability and the dryads will also RR 1’s. You can easily keep topping them up with verdurous harmony and each cast has a chance to make the woods attack. And they’ll have the 6+ save from the wargrove to improve their survivability. 

Also I figure your taking the 2 TLA’s to make the battalion for the extra artifact, but in the scenario above, your behemoths wont be taking any hits, so you probably wont need to auto-cast heal. Drycha can attack over the Drayds too, so she wont be taking any hits either. It would be much better to take the vesperal gem on the model with Verdurous Harmony, so they can top up lost Drayds giving you more time to grind the enemy out. You can’t cast the TLA’s damaging spell twice anyway, so it would be better to have a different caster with a damage spell. 

You already have drayds, so you probably wont need the Branchwraith. If you take the wytch, you can swap the 1 TLA for a regular TL (they are better at attacking anyway) so you can double stomp, forcing your enemy to attack last. You can also take the household battalion for the second artifact and take some T-revs to fill battleline.  That’s great addition because if your regular TL is anchoring the line, the enemy wont be able to retreat and will be trapped there, striking last, while dryads, the forest, bow-hunters and the TL’s tear them apart. This way you can deal with enemy units 1 at a time, since he wont be able to remove the unit from combat by retreating, and he wont be able to bring new troops in because the old troops are stuck there. 5 units of spites wont last long since to do a bunch of damage, they need to be in groups of 15 or more so they can all get their attacks off together. 

In this case, do you really need the third item?  You wont need the CP, because all you’ll use them for is the TLA’s RR 1’s which will likely affect your whole army (thanks to hunters). You won’t need to out drop him, because your not alpha-striking and your forest will probably protect you from shooting. Your wytch already has an item, and there’s not really another useful spell to be casting anyway.  

At this point, your list is at 1830:

Gnarlroot

Drycha @ 320
TLA, Nurtured by magic, the vesperal gem, Verdurous harmony @ 300
Branchwytch, chalice of nectar, regrowth @ 80

30 Drayds @270
Tree-Revenants @ 80
Tree-Revenants @ 80 ]

3 Kurnouth Hunters with bows @ 200
3 Kurnouth Hunters with bows @ 200

1 Treeman @ 200

Battallions

Household(100)

Extra CP : 1
Total : 1830

You could throw in a Arch-rev,  but a Vengeful skullroot will give you d6 mortals vs what’s fighting in the woods. An emerald lifeswarm will allow you to bring back another d3 drayds per turn.  Summon them in (skullroot) or behind (lifeswarm) the woods and enemy cannot dispel them, since enemy wizards need LoS to dispel endless spells. If you want your caster to get an extra cast (since you had the extra cast item in your list) take the Balewind vortex too to give a range boost to the Branchwytches spites spell. That way she can heal the TLA or TL with regrowth, and cast a damage spell.

Endless spells  

Vengeful Skullroot- 40pts
Emerald Lifeswarm - 40 pts
Balewind Vortex - 60 pts 

That give you 1970 pts. The army is the same number of drops, you can potentially put out D6 (skullroot) + TLA woods spell (D3) + Spites (~2) + potentially 3 casts awakening the woods on a 5+. That’s potentially 20 MW from spells if you roll well to every unit within 6” of your front lines (providing you place your spells right and roll well.) You can also bring back a guaranteed 2D3 drayds who are already pretty tanky as is. Add in damage front the fact that the units are also fear woods during the charge phase you could do another 2D3 per game turn. 4D3 if you can force them to fight between 2 forests. 

The army is the same number of drops (7) and only casts 1 less spell, but has a greater potential for magic damage. You also have T-revs to capture objectives left unguarded and unless you’re going to eat a charge from something like skull-crushers your dryads block is so resilient you probably wont need to screen them.  

   

Edited May 31, 2019 by Mirage8112

[Mirage8112]

P.s. sorry for the wall of text. 

[Vition]

48 minutes ago, Zanzou said:

So can someone explain...

2)... why the heck didn't they make Lords of the Clan 2-4 Treelords and 1-3 Treelord Ancients, instead of the other way around? ...

It is based on the fluff of an ideal "Wargrove," if you look at the current battletome, pg 113, it lists what's in a wargrove.  The Lords of the Clan include a Head of the Clan (Treelord Ancient), 1-3 Guardians (Treelords), and 1-3 Lore Masters (Treelord Ancients).  This gets you 2 Treelord Ancients and a Treelord.

It may not make sense as a stand alone battalion, but within the context of what the fluff states is a wargrove it does.  Now, GW controls the fluff so they could change things up, but they seem loathe to do so with the Sylvaneth - pretty much every new battalion has identical requirements to the first battletome with only the bonus abilities being changed.

[Zanzou]

23 minutes ago, Vition said:

It is based on the fluff of an ideal "Wargrove," if you look at the current battletome, pg 113, it lists what's in a wargrove.  The Lords of the Clan include a Head of the Clan (Treelord Ancient), 1-3 Guardians (Treelords), and 1-3 Lore Masters (Treelord Ancients).  This gets you 2 Treelord Ancients and a Treelord.

It may not make sense as a stand alone battalion, but within the context of what the fluff states is a wargrove it does.  Now, GW controls the fluff so they could change things up, but they seem loathe to do so with the Sylvaneth - pretty much every new battalion has identical requirements to the first battletome with only the bonus abilities being changed.

Good point but you'd think that if LORE wise the head of the clan (TLA) is supposed to synergize with their fellow lore masters (other TLA) then they'd actually give them warscrolls too that synergize with multiple being on the same field, instead of literally getting in each others' way...

Edited May 31, 2019 by Zanzou

[maitremage]

Taking the battalion with 2 TLA also means 3 awakened Wyldwoods without any chance to dissipate for the opponent. I don't know if that worth 600 points, but I think it's something to keep in mind. And 3 wyldwoods will give potentially more efficiency to TLA spell. Last, even if TLA is maybe a bit overcosted (2 spells could have been great), it's really resistant and can be a really good support.

 

(Sorry for my English by the way XD)

[Zanzou]

10 minutes ago, maitremage said:

Taking the battalion with 2 TLA also means 3 awakened Wyldwoods without any chance to dissipate for the opponent. I don't know if that worth 600 points, but I think it's something to keep in mind. And 3 wyldwoods will give potentially more efficiency to TLA spell. Last, even if TLA is maybe a bit overcosted (2 spells could have been great), it's really resistant and can be a really good support.

 

(Sorry for my English by the way XD)

How will taking an extra TLA give you more wyldwoods?  Only one TLA can use silent communion

[maitremage]

13 minutes ago, Zanzou said:

How will taking an extra TLA give you more wyldwoods?  Only one TLA can use silent communion

I thaught it was once per battle for every model with this aptitude. But you may have right : it's only once per battle, no matter how many models have the aptitude.

[Kairos Tejedestinos]

Tomorrow if i have the time (and some actual gameplay) i will answer in more depth @Mirage8112 but the Brainchwraith i don't think it's something you can really drop out, Free screens are too useful to give up, much more than what the branchwych brings to the table. The reason why i feel i need 3 items is because i want atleast 3 things:

1 - Summon trees each turn reliabily. All our mages can summon trees now, having more artifacts spread out to cast it easilly helps this goal.

2 - Summon more dryads each turn . I don't need that much teeth if i can just force my opponent to kill screens and teleport away.

3 - Cast regrowth reliabily with extra heals. Probably the TLA with verdorous harmony should have regrowth for this goal instead ofthe  one with the chalice. But then i can't use the verdorous harmony TLA to summon trees neglecting your opponent their dispel when i really want those trees in that spot for sure.

Verdorous harmony is in there just to not lose damage output as i lose hunters. As i said, it's something i want to try out, not set in stone, but i don't see the other spells as important or impactful.

It might be true that the list lacks teeth to even an avoidance list (the point is to be teleporting your units most of the time, that's why LoS isn't really that big of an issue) in that case, i will just get an endless spell to get the +3 charge, and switch the kurnouth hunters to a 6 man scythe unit to act as a hammer. With how the list is laid out i can (in theory) reliabily cast the endless spell and use the teleport to get the kurnouth somewhere to dish out good damage and have the rerolling ones.

 

Edit : Anyways the criticism is welcomed, don't think i don't appreciate it. 

Edit 2 : I think verdorous is an useless spell when it comes to dryads to be honest. The point of the spell is to get an additional kurnouth hunter imo (when it dies yeah), since 1d3 dryads, spites or revenants isn't really that big of a deal.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Kairos Tejedestinos

[Aezeal]

2 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

from there on she will be teleporting (which does not count as movement) and summong driads and trees

I know I'll get arguments on this.. in which FAQ is this again?

 

PS I agree with Mirage on getting some endless spells, it would be a waste if you have nothing to heal and don't have a d6 damage spell to cast with that great gnarlroot item.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Aezeal

[Mirage8112]

17 minutes ago, Kairos Tejedestinos said:

Tomorrow if i have the time (and some actual gameplay) i will answer in more depth @Mirage8112 

Yes! Do some play testing and see how it works out. 
 

22 minutes ago, Kairos Tejedestinos said:

Edit : Anyways the criticism is welcomed, don't think i don't appreciate it. 

Edit 2 : I think verdorous is an useless spell when it comes to dryads to be honest. The point of the spell is to get an additional kurnouth hunter imo (when it dies yeah), since 1d3 dryads, spites or revenants isn't really that big of a deal.

That’s why we’re here after all.

Also, it’s not so much It’s not so much that D3 drayds do a lot of damage, it’s that dryads are hard to kill. Gnarlroot has always been an attrition list. 

A block of 30 dryads, -1 to hit, immune to battleshock, saving on 4’s, RR 1’s, with a free 6+ save after wounds, can eat 60 attacks 3+/3+ And only take 7 wounds even without being in cover. D3-2D3 dryads back every other turn means it will take 3 full game turns to remove the unit from the board. Backed up by drycha and stomping TL’s most things wont last that long. But then again, maybe you can solve the same problem with chaff, providing you have the space and the opportunity to get them on the board between you and whatever wants to eat your face in the next combat phase. 

How are you planning on taking objectives in your enemy’s territory? It doesn’t look like your list has a lot of mobility in it and teleporting through forests only works if you aren’t zoned out (since we can’t put them on objectives now), and then it will still be a turn before you can charge with whatever teleporting in there.  
 

30 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

I know I'll get arguments on this.. in which FAQ is this again?

If your referring to the dryads teleporting even if they can’t move, there isn’t a FAQ I’m aware of that addresses that issue specifically. We do have the FAQ that says hunters can teleport out of combat and still shoot, so we know that teleporting doesn’t follow all the same rules moving does (since it’s not a move).  

[Mirage8112]

On 5/30/2019 at 11:55 AM, Mirage8112 said:

Wargrove: Dreadwood 

Spirit of Durthu (340)
- Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak 
Treelord Ancient (300)
- Artefact: Jewel of Withering 
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
Treelord Ancient (300)
- Deepwood Spell: Treesong
Arch-Revenant (100)
- General
- Command trait: Parragon of Terror
Branchwraith (80)
- Artefact: Spiritsong Stave
- Deepwood Spell: Throne of Vines

20 x Spite-Revenants (200)
5 x Spite-Revenants (60)
5 x Spite-Revenants (60)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)

Treelord (200)

Lords of the Clan (60)
Outcasts (100)

Spiteswarm Hive (50)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 3
Drops: 6

So I’ve been rethinking this list, looking to refine it further. 

After offer suggestions on  Kairos’s list, I thought I would take my own advice and make some adjustments. I think I might be spreading myself too thin, and sacrificing damage for a guaranteed stomp. The 2 TLA’s + a TL definitively give me the chance to get stomp off, but between the three of them the damage is just to swingy to be reliable. Mathhammer has 10 wounds getting through on a 4+ save between the three of them, and in actual dice rolling tests, it’s been anything from 20 wounds (when impale goes off and I roll well for damage) or 4 wounds (nowhere near enough to do anything useful).  That’s just terribly inefficient at best and abysmal at worst.   

Really, with Durthu already in the list, I can swap out the Ancient for a wytch, take household keep the artifact and command point and still get a 90% chance to stomp whatever is hit by the big trees. Since I won’t have to worry about strike first with stomp (thanks for the clarification), I dont think I’m need the Doppleganger cloak.  Jewel of withering is actually better on Durthu, since he suffers the worst from losing wounds, and I can put the Vesperal Gem on the TLA to guarantee a heal. Since he’s a big fella, he’s in the best position to survive and heal the big D up next turn in case he loses any wounds and will force the enemy to choose between taking some wounds off Durthu, or trying to take out his back-up battery completely.  

The wytch in this case becomes the second support caster, making damage go off a bit more reliably with Treesong, and I can bump the second spite unit up to 20 models. This gives me a little something to fall back on if the first spite unit is severely weaken or removed once they murder whatever it is I want them to murder.

This also brings my drops down by 1. 

Wargrove: Dreadwood 

Spirit of Durthu (340)
- Artefact: Jewel of Withering
Treelord Ancient (300)
- Artefact: Vesperal Gem
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
Branchwytch (80)
-Deepwood Spell: Treesong  
Arch-Revenant (100)
- General
- Command trait: Parragon of Terror
Branchwraith (80)
- Artefact: Spiritsong Stave
- Deepwood Spell: Throne of Vines

20 x Spite-Revenants (200)
20 x Spite-Revenants (200)
5 x Spite-Revenants (60)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)

Treelord (200)

Household (100)
Outcasts (100)

Spiteswarm Hive (50)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1950/ 2000
Command Points at first turn: 4
Drops: 5

As of now, I have room for another endless spell, or to take another command point. I’m inclined to take the command point to re-roll charges in case I need to on the alpha strike plus gives me a very good shot at a Triumph, any of them (RR hits/wounds/saves) would be a welcome addition. I am also toying with dropping out the TLA for Drycha, but I really want that extra stomp... 

This list wont do protracted combat very well, but it will murder whatever it hits in it’s own turn. I might also be able to chain combats by having everything hit a unit at once and then piling in toward the next closest unit. That will make screening against this list very difficult, since even a a big screen on 30 models will likely have to swing last, and I can have 2 units of spites, the Treelord and TLA all swing, before Durthu gets to pile in and attack whatever is behind it.       

Edited June 1, 2019 by Mirage8112

[Charlo]

12 year old me loves the idea of lords of the clan regardless of if it's great or not. You could go for six big tress as try to spread the damage proc all over your opponents army as much as possible.

What I'm really trying to say is:

"THE ENTS ARE GOING TO WARRRR!"

But yes, it is diabolical that the ancients are single spell casters... For their cost and lacking melee power they should be two or at least have some serious bonuses to single casts.

[Matt Large]

How about Lords of the Clan in an Oakenbrow list to really try make the most of the Glade trait? Something like this:

Glade :Oakenbrow 

Durthu (340)

Ancient - General -  Regal old growth - Dawnflask (300)

Ancient (300)

Branchwraith (80) 

20 Dryads (200)

20 Dryads (200)

10 Dryads (100) 

Treelord (200) 

Lords of the Clan (60) 

Forest Folk (140) 

Gladeworm (30)

Spiteswarm Hive (50)

2000 on the nose (which makes me happy).  Plus it’s 3 drops. Looking at it, it’s probably terrible, but it looks pretty cool at least.  Havnt really thought about spells and artefacts, there’s probably a few good ones to go for. 

[Aezeal]

18 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

So I’ve been rethinking this list, looking to refine it further. 

After offer suggestions on  Kairos’s list, I thought I would take my own advice and make some adjustments. I think I might be spreading myself too thin, and sacrificing damage for a guaranteed stomp. The 2 TLA’s + a TL definitively give me the chance to get stomp off, but between the three of them the damage is just to swingy to be reliable. Mathhammer has 10 wounds getting through on a 4+ save between the three of them, and in actual dice rolling tests, it’s been anything from 20 wounds (when impale goes off and I roll well for damage) or 4 wounds (nowhere near enough to do anything useful).  That’s just terribly inefficient at best and abysmal at worst.   

Really, with Durthu already in the list, I can swap out the Ancient for a wytch, take household keep the artifact and command point and still get a 90% chance to stomp whatever is hit by the big trees. Since I won’t have to worry about strike first with stomp (thanks for the clarification), I dont think I’m need the Doppleganger cloak.  Jewel of withering is actually better on Durthu, since he suffers the worst from losing wounds, and I can put the Vesperal Gem on the TLA to guarantee a heal. Since he’s a big fella, he’s in the best position to survive and heal the big D up next turn in case he loses any wounds and will force the enemy to choose between taking some wounds off Durthu, or trying to take out his back-up battery completely.  

The wytch in this case becomes the second support caster, making damage go off a bit more reliably with Treesong, and I can bump the second spite unit up to 20 models. This gives me a little something to fall back on if the first spite unit is severely weaken or removed once they murder whatever it is I want them to murder.

This also brings my drops down by 1. 

Wargrove: Dreadwood 

Spirit of Durthu (340)
- Artefact: Jewel of Withering
Treelord Ancient (300)
- Artefact: Vesperal Gem
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
Branchwytch (80)
-Deepwood Spell: Treesong  
Arch-Revenant (100)
- General
- Command trait: Parragon of Terror
Branchwraith (80)
- Artefact: Spiritsong Stave
- Deepwood Spell: Throne of Vines

20 x Spite-Revenants (200)
20 x Spite-Revenants (200)
5 x Spite-Revenants (60)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)

Treelord (200)

Household (100)
Outcasts (100)

Spiteswarm Hive (50)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1950/ 2000
Command Points at first turn: 4
Drops: 5

As of now, I have room for another endless spell, or to take another command point. I’m inclined to take the command point to re-roll charges in case I need to on the alpha strike plus gives me a very good shot at a Triumph, any of them (RR hits/wounds/saves) would be a welcome addition. I am also toying with dropping out the TLA for Drycha, but I really want that extra stomp... 

This list wont do protracted combat very well, but it will murder whatever it hits in it’s own turn. I might also be able to chain combats by having everything hit a unit at once and then piling in toward the next closest unit. That will make screening against this list very difficult, since even a a big screen on 30 models will likely have to swing last, and I can have 2 units of spites, the Treelord and TLA all swing, before Durthu gets to pile in and attack whatever is behind it.       

So let me try and follow the idea

Set-up

You put the army down. Spirit, TLA, treelord the Tree revenants and 2 unit of spites somewhere (as far away from the enemy as possible to prevent unbinds they are all whole within range of a possibly cast Hive (this might be tight I think).

Then you hope there is room for a forest somewhere ~12 inch away from a vital point in the enemy line (wholly within 24' of a TLA).

Hero phase 

Place the auto forest (silent communion)

Cast Hive between the units mentioned above. Since this is rather important I assume the Wraith first tries Thorne of Vines and then this spell. After that another caster (without bonus) tries to cast cogs. 

Movement phase

Teleport Durthu TLA treelord and a unit of spite there using the warscrolls and army abilities. Then teleport T-revs and spites anywhere out side of 9"of enemy using Treve warscroll and Dreadwood command ability. Possibly Arch revenant tries to run towards one of the points where you try to impact too? 

Shooting

Durthu, Treelord and TLA are in range of enemy and shoot.

Charge

Everything hopefully has +5 to charge,( possibly only +3 though)  and you charge most of your army into the enemy - hopefully in weak points.  Durthu and TLA next to each other into the biggest threat

Combat

Treelords both try to stomp the biggest threat on enemy side. Archie possibly uses his CA to give stuff +1 attacks. Alternate activations so you might take some damage but hopefully not from the enemies biggest threat which should die before he is allowed to activate. Durthu has -1 wound vs himself.  Durthu likely not in range of wood for more attacks. 

 

Next turn

- you can autocast regrowth to heal 

- you can summon dryads with +2 to cast and summon a forest with +2 too.

 

Is this the idea? Or is there more too it?

 

Q's 

- How reliable is the alphastrike. The chance of getting both spells is certainly not 100% and not getting them decreases charge chances ofcourse.

- will there be enough room near the forest to teleport them all?

- I know the wych is there only for the battalion but the spell you give it seems more suited for a defensive play while you possibly have most units in enemy territory not near forests. (the alternatives sadly are not much better I see...- the wych just sucks)

- Do you think it's likely that during the alpha strike AFTER charging you will still have units wholly within 12 of the Arch revenant? I think best effect would be on one of the 20 spite units.. but those might be hardest to keep within 12.  Or is here there more for a possible buff the 2nd turn in your opinion. Maybe he should not be in the list if his role is minimal

- Considering the Archrev will likely not be in combat in the alpha strike wouldn't it be better to put paragon of terror on the Durthu? (this makes the chance of getting a +1 attack with CA less likely of (range only 9")

- Considering the wych (as I at least conclude above) doesn't have real synergy with the list and the versperal gem is there for healing only (which is powerfull, no doubt but still) wouldn't deleting the wych and household and forgetting the item on the TLA be an option to get more bodies on the table without really compromising the alpha strike?

----- It would save 180 points and you still have 50 left over.. that means you could put in another Treelord which can teleport and would give another stomp option and some more melee potential for the alphastrike. (If there is enough room to teleport most fo this army there anyway as I said above).

- Would you try go first on the first turn if you can choose. Even if enemy moves you can probably still place a forest.. possibly even easier. A double turn after the Alpha would certainly be awesome.

- Have you considered or done the math on going minimal spite and use hunters instead for the alpha? 6 swords or scythes is 400 points if you drop 30 spites and 5 tree revs you save 320 points.  Or remove 1 big unit , t-revs , wych and batallion =  380. And some of the left over points and keep the 2nd big until. The footprint of 6 hunter might fit better in the teleport room and within the hive circle than 20 spites? Also the unit will always be in range of the archies CA and possibly .. though I'm a bit less sure about this  as I said above wholly within 12 of his rr1 ability. 

 

Edited June 1, 2019 by Aezeal

[Kairos Tejedestinos]

About the list i posted earlier, from  the two games i got today, most of it is about gnarlroot:

- Damage output is  barely enough. I can see it having problems with more horde centric armies with good negate wounds rules (such as DoK), but it can also snipe the character that improves those saves. There is potential and it is a playstyle that fits me.

- Woods occupy way less now (i am taking for granted that you can only summon about the size of 1 citadel wood at the time, since we don't know yet what size we can accomplish with the new trees, and their layout will be more limiting, i prefer to take for granted it will be worse than it will be just to get used to, if i am wrong, good, if not, i am already prepared), and withouth TLA's ability to get woods every turn, it's more harder to fill the gaps in scenery early before your opponent attempts to bully you. I find that the ability to get guaranteed or almost guaranteed woods every turn is fundamental to our mobility. Dreadwood can bypass it, but then they require CPs.

- I see it really hard to get 30 dryads being effective while remaining within woods for the -1. It requires a very particular gameplay and mission objectives to work.

- Same happens for teleports and big units, not to speak about how easy it was to teleport unit arounds with little troubles, we will find ourselves more constrained.

- Drycha is a beast, full stop. Her role has changed, nothing wrong with that. Her shooting being 18" know means you don't need to commit her as hard as before, and her shooting is very good at sniping support characters when in gnarlwood ( average 3,8 MW + 5,1 rend -1 wounds against characters with the lookout sir!, most characters just melt). Her spell is better, but i didn't face an army where i could take advantadge of it, but with the new book we have always 3 known spells, so that isn't really a problem, it just gives us more tools for our toobox.

- Branchwraith with Throne of Vines + Staff is amazing. You are getting woods and dryads every turn very easilly, outside turn 1 (where you can actually use different spells with other characters). Chalice is also really nice (you also get to use it for dispels ^^), i am thinking ways to incorporate it with someone in a vortex, we will see.  For example for a non Gnarlroot Branchwych general trait spellsinger, chalice in a vortex with deadly harvest and unleash spites could put some serious MW damage out at the ranges of 15" to 21" inches, even tho i find myself having such a hard time dropping Gnarlroot for now.

- Rerrolling ones from gnarlroot really make our shooty stuff stand out much more. Not only the kurnouth hunters, but Drycha and treeman get use out of it. And then in the combat phase is not bad at all. I like it because all our characters are support characters with an extra buff by default.

With that being said i will probably make more changes to the list, but i always prefer to play it for a while until i get more used to it, to feel to what i really think needs to be changed. For starters the Lords of the clan battallion is the first to go, and forget about the vesperal gem. I really like the branchwraith casting two spells, and with gnarlroot, i am forced to take the chalice, , something i feel it will constraint my teleports to get dryads and woods where i want. That would free me 560 points if i remove battallion, TLA and Treelord. 

 

Edited June 1, 2019 by Kairos Tejedestinos

[Kairos Tejedestinos]

Also, only one unit can navigate the realmroots at the time, right? Only the Treelord types kind ignores this. 

And another question, i am missing the page on how to deploy our first awakened wyldwood, how does it work now.

Edited June 1, 2019 by Kairos Tejedestinos

[Mirage8112]

56 minutes ago, Kairos Tejedestinos said:

and withouth TLA's ability to get woods every turn, 

Every turn? Silent communion is once per game no matter how many Ancients you have, and if verdant blessing isn’t part of the Deepwood spell lore it wont auto cast with the vesperal gem. 

 

58 minutes ago, Kairos Tejedestinos said:

I see it really hard to get 30 dryads being effective while remaining within woods for the -1. It requires a very particular gameplay and mission objectives to work.

Dryads don’t actually have to be in the woods to get the -1, they just have to be within 6”. 

 

59 minutes ago, Kairos Tejedestinos said:

Branchwraith with Throne of Vines + Staff is amazing. You are getting woods and dryads every turn very easilly, outside turn 1 (where you can actually use different spells with other characters). Chalice is also really nice (you also get to use it for dispels ^^), i am thinking ways to incorporate it with someone in a vortex, we will see.  For example for a non Gnarlroot Branchwych general trait spellsinger, chalice in a vortex with deadly harvest and unleash spites could put some serious MW damage out at the ranges of 15" to 21" inches, even tho i find myself having such a hard time dropping Gnarlroot for now.

This is good news, and throne of vines is fairly easy cast.
 

1 hour ago, Kairos Tejedestinos said:

For starters the Lords of the clan battallion is the first to go, and forget about the vesperal gem. I really like the branchwraith casting two spells, and with gnarlroot, i am forced to take the chalice, , something i feel it will constraint my teleports to get dryads and woods where i want. That would free me 560 points if i remove battallion, TLA and Treelord. 

 This was my conclusion about the LotC battlion as well. It’s the cheapest battalion we have, which is why its initially attractive, but the units themselves are the most expensive generic units in the Battletome.

If the forest spell counts as deepwood spell, the gem could still be valuable, I still think you should at least try to squeeze the household Battalion in there, just because two stomps will be really helpful if your facing a horde army and your main spellcaster gets charged. That will give you room to take another unit of hunters (swap on unit of spite out for T-revs to nab objectives) and you can keep your extra CP and item.  

[Kairos Tejedestinos]

@Mirage8112

- I mean exactly that. That we don't get TLAs to have a chance to summon every turn anymore for free, so we rely on Verdant, Acorn and our different casting artifacts to reliabily get woods out, and no TLA help (outside once per battle).

-  The unit must be wholly within 6" of the awakened wyldwoods, not only within. No more conga-lines. Same for teleports. Obviously this was coming for Sylvaneth as it did for most other armies, so it isn't unexpected imo, but something to take into account.

- Yeah Verdant not being directly clarified as Lore of the deepwood is somewhat weird. How it is written is really ambiguous.

Edited June 1, 2019 by Kairos Tejedestinos

[Aezeal]

1 hour ago, Kairos Tejedestinos said:

Yeah Verdant not being directly clarified as Lore of the deepwood is somewhat weird. How it is written is really ambiguous

This is somewhat unfair to gw.. It's not ambiguous. As it's written you have Verdant and the a table of Deepwood spells.. nothing at all says Verdant is a Deepwood Spell.  The heading of Deepwood starts below Verdant too. 

hours ago, Kairos Tejedestinos said:

- Woods occupy way less now (i am taking for granted that you can only summon about the size of 1 citadel wood at the time, since we don't know yet what size we can accomplish with the new trees, and their layout will be more limiting, i prefer to take for granted it will be worse than it will be just to get used to, if i am wrong, good, if not, i am already prepared), and withouth TLA's ability to get woods every turn, it's more harder to fill the gaps in scenery early before your opponent attempts to bully you. I find that the ability to get guaranteed or almost guaranteed woods every turn is fundamental to our mobility. Dreadwood can bypass it, but then they require CPs.

I think if you deploy 6 in a double line of 3 - ends touching- you'll still have some room for teleporting within 6" of those forests. It will also keep the area small so you can work roind other terrain. I think this is what might help dreadwood.

Quote

For example for a non Gnarlroot Branchwych general trait spellsinger, chalice in a vortex with deadly harvest and unleash spites could put some serious MW damage out at the ranges of 15" to 21" inches, 

Non gnarlroot and chalice doesn't seem like an option. The combination of spellsinger and chalice can't be done.

 

Edited June 1, 2019 by Aezeal

[Kairos Tejedestinos]

Yeah, probably i am being unjustifiably bitter

1 hour ago, Aezeal said:

This is somewhat unfair to gw.. It's not ambiguous. As it's written you have Verdant and the a table of Deepwood spells.. nothing at all says Verdant is a Deepwood Spell.  The heading of Deepwood starts below Verdant too. 

I think if you deploy 6 in a double line of 3 - ends touching- you'll still have some room for teleporting within 6" of those forests. It will also keep the area small so you can work roind other terrain. I think this is what might help dreadwood.

Non gnarlroot and chalice doesn't seem like an option. The combination of spellsinger and chalice can't be done.

 

You are right, i am overly excited, i should stop for today