AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Joseph Mackay]

Allegiance: Sylvaneth

Leaders
Spirit of Durthu (380)
- General
Branchwraith (80)
Arch-Revenant (100)

Battleline
10 x Tree-Revenants (160)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)

Units
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200)
- Greatswords
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200)
- Greatswords
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200)
- Greatswords
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200)
- Greatbows
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200)
- Greatbows

Battalions
Free Spirits (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 117
 

[Mirage8112]

1 hour ago, Warheadsbylink said:

You can select Alarielle as your general but she doesn't get the command trait as per designers commentary.

https://imgur.com/a/QwLx1eK

Perfect. That  was the faq I was looking for.

[Kairos Tejedestinos]

Yep @Warheadsbylink is a fast fella. That was also FAQed for Morathi (Which was the first named character that had that conflict if memory serves me right)

Q: Some of the temples of Khaine require that the general take a specific command trait. What happens if an army is from such a temple and has Morathi as its general? A: Morathi is a named character and therefore cannot have the command trait (she can still be your general).

@Freejack02 indeed the wording is very poor. Let's see how it ends up, because it could be amazing. Durthu moving 21" (yeah, some buffs required... and the thermalcloak) inches would be worth the sight. Just for those interested this is the wording for at the double's command ability which is somewhat relevant imo.

"At the Double: You can use this command ability after you make a run roll for a friendly unit that is within 6" of a friendly Hero, or 12" of a friendly Hero that is a general. If you do so, the run roll is treated as being a 6."

Edited May 28, 2019 by Kairos Tejedestinos

[Mirage8112]

55 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

Does anyone know why the ability of Free Spirits is worded the way it is? It seems like they are intentionally trying to state the unit isn't technically 'running'... 

"In your movement phase, if you declare a unit from this battalion will run, do not make a run roll. Instead, add 6" to the Move characteristic of that unit for that phase"

Why wouldn't they just say "the run roll is treated as being a 6" like the Core Rules wording... unless they are specifically avoiding that. Can anyone provide a parallel ability that is similarly worded from a different faction/source?

 

Its the exact same wording as running in the core rules; when you run, you roll a dice and add it to the core move characteristic. They’re just saying you don’t have to roll the dice and auto-run 6”, but it still counts as running.

 

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Mirage8112

[Kairos Tejedestinos]

Just now, Mirage8112 said:

 

Its the exact same wording as running in the core rules; when you run, you roll a dice and add it to the core move characteristic. They’re just saying you don’t have to roll the dice and auto-run 6”, but it still counts as running.

 

 

Not really, i already posted it above. But yeah it is very likely it will count as having run imo, most battallion abilities are being lackluster these days.

 

 

[Mirage8112]

2 minutes ago, Kairos Tejedestinos said:

Not really, i already posted it above. But yeah it is very likely it will count as having run imo, most battallion abilities are being lackluster these days.

You quoted the command ability, not the core rule for running:
 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Mirage8112

[Kairos Tejedestinos]

Just now, Mirage8112 said:

You quoted the command ability, not the core rule for running:
 

 

Correct i missread you and thought you were talking about at the double. But yeah i am positive you are right.

 

[Inquisitorsz]

So there's a couple things with this run rule. 

First of all..... lets look at it this way. 3 units of hunters + durthu getting a guaranteed 6" run AND being able to run and charge is just beyond broken.
I'd love it, but that's just way too strong. 

But let's assume for the sake of rules lawyering that maybe it was intended. 

Here are the 3 relevant rules:
Battalion says
"In your movement phase, if you declare a unit from this battalion will run, do not make a run roll. Instead, add 6" to the move characteristic of that unit for that phase" 

Run rule says 
"When you pick a unit to make a normal move, you can declare that it will run. Make a run roll for the unit by rolling a dice. Add the result of the run roll to the Move characteristic of all models in the unit for that movement phase. The unit can then move up to that distance in inches. Models in a unit that runs can’t shoot or charge later in the same turn."

Command ability says 
"At the Double: You can use this command ability after you make a run roll for a friendly unit that is within 6" of a friendly Hero, or 12" of a friendly Hero that is a general. If you do so, the run roll is treated as being a 6."

So the wording is a bit different in each case. 
It could certainly be written better. 
I think the difference comes from whether or not you roll the dice. 
In the battalion, you don't roll at all, it's automatic. 
Normal run you roll and add the value. 
Command Ability, you roll then can decide to treat it as a 6. 

The use of the word "Instead" in the battalion rule is where the confusion comes from. The "add X to move characteristic" part is consistent between rules. The question comes down to whether or not the word "instead" overwrites the declaration of a run move or only refers to the dice rolling part. 
The rule actually reads better (to me at least) if you take out the word "instead". 

So you can't actually "treat this roll as a 6" because you're not doing a roll. 
But at the end of the day, you're still declaring that you're performing a run move. So it's still a normal run move.                           

[Joseph Mackay]

22 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

So there's a couple things with this run rule. 

First of all..... lets look at it this way. 3 units of hunters + durthu getting a guaranteed 6" run AND being able to run and charge is just beyond broken.
I'd love it, but that's just way too strong.

there are much worse things in the game that can run and charge (Fyreslayers Magmadroth plus any units wholly within 12 comes to mind. they can also auto run 6)

[Inquisitorsz]

15 minutes ago, Joseph Mackay said:

there are much worse things in the game that can run and charge (Fyreslayers Magmadroth plus any units wholly within 12 comes to mind. they can also auto run 6)

Yeah but that's only for one lodge... and the guaranteed 6" is only on the first turn. And you have the wholly withing 12" restriction. 
Admittedly that's a free ability where as the battalion costs 140. 
But then again, it also gives you an artifact/CP/less drops. 
The battalion can be a bit more flexible both in it's range and ability to be part of any grove. 

Also, the fyrelsayers book has exactly the same wording for a similar rule.
"if you declare a friendly VOSTARG unit will run, do not make a run roll. Instead, add 6" to the Move characteristic of all models in that unit for that phase."
And it's not covered by the FAQ so I assume no one's seen it as an issue thus far. 

[Freejack02]

28 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

Also, the fyrelsayers book has exactly the same wording for a similar rule.
"if you declare a friendly VOSTARG unit will run, do not make a run roll. Instead, add 6" to the Move characteristic of all models in that unit for that phase."
And it's not covered by the FAQ so I assume no one's seen it as an issue thus far. 

Yeah, I think @Mirage8112 explanation above is correct - they simply went off the current wording for the Run rule. 

[Fyrm]

So, I just realized that the Vengful Skullroot spell has a damaging ability! But unfortunately, at least on my copy of the imagine that I could find, it is cut off a little. It looks like it deals a d3 mortal wounds to each unit it passes over, or d6 if they are within 3” of woods? That is the best I can decipher. 

[Kaylethia]

Something I noticed: our extra run/charge movement modifies rolls. The basic artefact gives +2 to run and charge rolls, and the Free Spirits ability skips rolling. 

[Aezeal]

8 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

Does anyone know why the ability of Free Spirits is worded the way it is? It seems like they are intentionally trying to state the unit isn't technically 'running'... 

"In your movement phase, if you declare a unit from this battalion will run, do not make a run roll. Instead, add 6" to the Move characteristic of that unit for that phase"

Why wouldn't they just say "the run roll is treated as being a 6" like the Core Rules wording... unless they are specifically avoiding that. Can anyone provide a parallel ability that is similarly worded from a different faction/source?

If you are right (doubt it) since you declare they run.. they could charge.. which would be huge... But it isn't I fear.

8 hours ago, jake3991 said:

 Hope they iron this one out quick, I agree  its very confusing. 

It not really it's worded differently but not really confusing

[Matt Large]

Having played Sylvaneth since they were first released all those years back, I just wanted to say I think this book is a fantastic change. We are going from a possible 3 build army (arguably Gnarlroot magic/winter leaf dryad spam and Dreadwood alpha strike) to being able to do anything of the above styles in any combination and more. I haven’t managed to have a look at the whole book in detail, but what I have seen looks really quite promising. Tree lords are still in a pretty bad place though. And why Ancients arnt level 2 baffles me. But there’s plenty to be excited about imo. 

[AaronWilson]

The first game was a success, between my  3 x 3 bow Hunters & drycha I killed 3 Morghasts (Drycha finished the 4th one in melee), VloZD with EA & Mannfred from range, cleared up with the rest with hunters in melee & stomps as well as durthu. Drycha is a absolute monster in the new book.

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

I can see Treelords being a support monster, if you don't have multiple Durthu's. Having a distraction carnifex and one that can make enemies fight last for say Kurnoths to then strike sounds good for 200; they're also better targets for healing. I'm not sure what people are wanting from Treelords, as by default they will always be inferior to the Ancient and Durthu, so unless you're wanting them even cheaper I'm not sure what can be done to satisfy some people. Hell I doubt people would be happy if they were 100 points.

I think the implication of a cheap tanky monster teleporting around is enough.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Knight Scáthach of Fimm

[Ironbreaker]

22 hours ago, Zanzou said:

We’re not allied with any of those factions to use those wizards anymore sadly 😞.

Also... Unless they end up changing his warscroll, the dispossessed wizard spell isn’t even compatible with sylvaneth 🙁

Dispossessed do not have wizards.

[frostfire]

Hello tree fellas! Got to see some of the contents in our new book after a long wait. Everyone would admit that it is pretty different from the old book and it is time for us to make some changes. We used to relay on our 1 drop battalions but now they are gone. Pursuing low drop counts seem to cost too much since the new battalions are not as powerful and cheap as the old ones.

So, IMHO,maybe giving up controlling our drops would not just break the core of our new army, instead it may open up our mind to put in units and stuff.

I came up with several lists:

Spoiler

 

Heartwood

Everqueen-660

TLA-300

brachwraith-80

brachwraith-80

20 s-rev-200

5 s-rev-60

5 s-rev-60

6- Hunters w/ bow-400

outcast-100

1940 in total

 

Spoiler

 

Winterleaf

TLA-300

TLA-300

TL-200

Arch-rev-100

brachwraith-80

30 Dryad-270

20 s-rev-200

5 s-rev-60

6 Hunters w/ scythe-400

Lords of the clan-60

1970 in total

 

Not saying these are the best, just want to discuss some possibilities.

Looking forward to your thoughts on some units and tactics.

[Zanzou]

3 hours ago, Ironbreaker said:

Dispossessed do not have wizards.

Well since he can unbind spells and cast his two prayer buffs, I basically considered him equivalent.  But you’re definitely  correct. He wouldn’t be able to cast anything else than his prayer.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Zanzou

[Fyrm]

Does anyone have any ideas for what bass sizes to use for our endless spells? I may be able to play some games with them proxied at some point, and if so I’d need to know what to use. 

[Pestilens]

9 hours ago, AaronWilson said:

The first game was a success, between my  3 x 3 bow Hunters & drycha I killed 3 Morghasts (Drycha finished the 4th one in melee), VloZD with EA & Mannfred from range, cleared up with the rest with hunters in melee & stomps as well as durthu. Drycha is a absolute monster in the new book.

The list  that u posted  yesterday seems 2020 points. I think u need to replace forest folk with the other formation (the one that include durtu+3x kurnoth). Btw i will try that list  tonight agaist khorne

Edit: also  the other formation is 140... So se need to try something else

Edited May 29, 2019 by Pestilens

[HollowHills]

20 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

I'd think 4 of the new Awakened Wyldwood kits (i.e. a total of 12 Citadel Woods "models") should suffice for 1K or under.

That's probably about the same as I'd spend on a 1k army in trees. I was more thinking one box or two. 

[Easytyger]

My question is how if this army going to function with 1 Awakened Wood on the table? Because that's going to happen frequently if Sylvaneth cannot out drop its opponent.  Zoning out places for Woods will shut much of the army down.  Even though it is very flavorful and unique I wish they had completely minimized the interaction with Woods.  

[overtninja]

7 minutes ago, Easytyger said:

My question is how if this army going to function with 1 Awakened Wood on the table? Because that's going to happen frequently if Sylvaneth cannot out drop its opponent.  Zoning out places for Woods will shut much of the army down.  Even though it is very flavorful and unique I wish they had completely minimized the interaction with Woods.  

The new woods seem easier to put down - they aren't as restrictive and you can squeeze them into different spaces thanks to how modular they are - they don't have a set footprint. Additionally, since many abilities are now 'wholly within 6' instead of 'within 3' you don't need to be so close to them, and with only 1 teleport per turn, it's not going to be as vital to blanket the whole table with them.

Lastly, I very much doubt that players will be nearly as afraid to bring their units into our woods now that they don't force every model to test vs. instant death - that's what really kept people away. With it just being mortal wounds, no one will be that scared. Now, they'll largely serve as being a LoS blocker and a way to give our kurnoth and infantry +1 armor for cover.

Basically, it doesn't look like the army will be able to cover the world in trees and then castle nearly as much, so it's time to start thinking of other ways we can wreck our opponents, rather than letting the Wyldwoods do the heavy lifting for us.