AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[ElectricPaladin]

Here's my question. Can anyone school me on kurnoth hunters, especially greatbows? I really want the bows to be good, because enormous treedudes with bows taller than a human are awesome, and also quiverlings are adorable, but people talk a lot of trash about them.

[The World Tree]

18 minutes ago, ElectricPaladin said:

Here's my question. Can anyone school me on kurnoth hunters, especially greatbows? I really want the bows to be good, because enormous treedudes with bows taller than a human are awesome, and also quiverlings are adorable, but people talk a lot of trash about them.

With how much LOS blocking terrain produced by our woods, they just don't work very well...

[Mirage8112]

On 5/12/2019 at 2:43 PM, Aezeal said:

But in our turn the attacks explode on a 4+ if in range of the hurricanum ( so if 20 are in range that means 40 attacks to start, then another 20 from exploding on average (60. 2+ to hit means 50 left 4+ to wound means 25 before saves.  With Archie CA If we get another attack each that means 60 becoming 90 after exploding, 75 after hits, 37 after wounds before saves. Which is 12 more.. so six AFTER saves.  So.. this is in optimal conditions (BUT if you say only 20 ar in combat then stringing back to the hurricanum is easier too ) but for 100 points even your 3-4 in a turn is better than most stuff you can get for those points

I think it might be useful though to consider how these abilities play out over a whole game. This is along post, with a lot of math, so if you just want the TL:DR version, skip to the ############## for the summary

Let’s say you’ve got a full contingent of 30 drayds in the trees fighting a horde of 40 skeletons, with all the trimmings. We’ll run the numbers 2 ways (one with Archie and one with a TLA).I’ll Show the math for the Archie, (since there’s a lot going on) using a ~ to show number rounded up to the nearest whole value. But without the Archie I’ll just give the total (I can show the math if you want). I also assuming you’ll use the Arch-revenants command ability every hero phase, which is 2 CP a turn. (At the top of turn 2 is when combat usually starts, you’ll have 4 CP, which means you can use one every phase until turn 5, where you’ll have none.) 

Firstly with an Archie in our turn

20 Drayds will be sporting 60 attacks: 60
Hitting on 2+ in their combat phase: 50 hits 
Hits of 4+ generate an extra attack means: 30 extra attacks
Those extra attacks also hit on 2+:  25 hits

50 hits + 25 hits= 75 hits wounding on 4+: ~38 wounds

Skeletons get a 5+ save against attacks with no rend, so 5+ save: ~25 wounds
A 6+ Allegiance save: 21 wounds
A second 6+ save from the standard bearer: 18 wounds (final)

Second:  or an Archie in your opponents turn:

20 Drayds will be sporting 60 attacks: 60
Hitting on 3+ in their combat phase: 40 hits 
Hits of 5+ generate an extra attack means: ~20 extra attacks
Those extra attacks also hit on 3+:  13 hits

40 hits + 13 hits= 53 hits wounding on 4+: ~27 wounds

Skeletons get a 5+ save against attacks with no rend, so 5+ save: ~18 wounds
A 6+ Allegiance save: ~15 wounds
A second 6+ save from the standard bearer: ~13 wounds (final)

18+ ~13= ~31 wounds total

Without Archie

Our turn: 15 wounds (final)
Opponents turn: ~9 wounds (final)

15+~9= ~24 wounds total 

~31 wounds - ~24 wounds = +7 wounds per turn from Archies command ability 

So yes. Over the course of a full turn, an Archie will net you an extra 3-4 wounds per combat phase for a total of 7 extra wounds from his combat ability, (assuming that there are always 10 dryads left to attack) However since you start with 2 CP and only generate 1 per turn (in your hero phase) you will run out of CP in the bottom of turn 5, which means over 5 games turns with combat starting from round 2, Arch will gain you ~24 extra wounds from his command ability.  

As to Archie vs the TLA, it’s important to remember that Ol’ Archie can only buff 1 unit. With the right positioning, the TLA can affect 2-3 units. As I said above, I was figuring a 1 group of drayds vs 1 group of skeletons. But if the TLA is buffing 3 groups of dryads over the whole field, lets calculate how many wounds it would save you. If in all the dryad units are 10 across, then in each combat skellies are 12 across, attacking in 2 ranks. Fully buffed, they have 5 attacks each and 1 unit will able to fight twice in their combat phase (thanks to Vanhels Danse Macabre) 

With Archie

12  Skeletons = 120 attacks
hits on 4+: 60
Wounds on 4+: 30
Dryads save on a 3+: ~10 wounds

10 wounds per unit, with 3 units: 30 wounds
1 unit attacking twice (Vanhels buff): +10 wounds 
30+10= 40 wounds 

40 wounds in his combat phase + 30 in the next (no Vanhels buff, so no unit can attack twice)

Total of 70 wounds taken in 1 full turn (2 rounds of combat)

With TLA:

Here’s where it gets a little tricky 

TLA gets a stomp attack, but it only goes off on a 4+. It’s also likely that it wont go off in the unit that is attacking twice. So what I’ll do is I’ll penalize the skeleton’s to hit in one unit, for 1 round, but figure RRing saves of 1 for all the dryads:
 
12 skeletons: 120 attacks
Hitting on 5+ (Stomp penalty): 40 
Wounds on a  4+: 20
Drayds save on a 3+: ~7
RR saves of 1: 6 wounds

All other combats:

12 skeletons: 120 attacks
Hitting on 4+: 60 
Wounds on a 4+: 30
Drayds save on a 3+: ~10
RR saves of 1: 9 wounds

Stomp activation: 6 wounds
2 regular activations: 18 wounds
Extra attack activation for Vanhels dance unit: +9 wounds   

6+28+9= 33 wounds in the first round of combat

3 skeleton units attack in the second round of combat (no Vanhels buff or Stomp penalty, but still rr 1’s)
9 wounds x 3 units = 27 wounds 

Total of 60 wounds taken in 1 full turn (two rounds of combat)

Which means through RR 1’s spread over 3 units, plus stomp going off on 1 unit 50% of the time, the TLA saves you from taking 10 wounds over the course of a turn. 4 turns over the course of game means he’ll save you a net total of 40 wounds total.

#################################

 So, in this case, it’s really more a question of what’s more valuable over the course of a game, the Archie-fi’ed unit will net you ~24 extra wounds over 4 full game turns, while a TLA will save you ~40 wounds over the same number of turns. This tells me that at least under these math-hammer circumstances,  Archie is more valuable early game:  everybody will be at full health mostly, and your units of dryads will have extra bodies to absorb those extra wounds the TLA would have saved. The TLA is much better late game since as the dryad lose bodies, their save gets worse and they start to lose more bodies to the same number of attacks. 

For example, lets assume we picked a TLA and there’s the same 3 groups of 30 dryads fighting the same 3 groups of 40 skellies above.  Once a unit of drayds drops below 12, they lose their extra +1 save from having 12 models in a unit, the Skellies go from doing 10 damage a round to 15 damage*. If the TLA’s command ability prevents this from happening for 1 round of combat per game (i.e. a dryad unit can stay above 12 models thanks to stomp or RR’ing saves of 1 for the first round of turn 3) that means the TLA is actually saving you an extra 5 models worth of damage that turn*. Which means, over the course of a game, the TLA is saving you 40 wounds + another 15 if he can keep each Dryad unit numbers above 12 for 1 round of combat (each game turn being 2 rounds of combat), meaning he’s saving you 55 wounds over the course of a game spread over 3 units. 

Consider also that all those dryads that the TLA is saving will probably get to continue attacking in turns 4 or 5, (since they wont be dead). we can calculate this as “passive damage” since the TLA is technically responsible for the dryads still being around to fight: 

55 wounds worth of Dryads= 110 attacks
Say the Hurricanium is no longer in range since the unit is depleted, and it’s the opponents turn so  4+ to hit: 55 hits
Extra attacks on a 6+: 18
73 attacks wounding on 4+: 36 wounds
Skellies save on a 5+: 25 wounds
Skellies 6+ save: ~20 wounds

SO.

Just by using the TLA’s command ability, your dryads last a little longer which means you get another 20 wounds for every combat phase those drayds stick around**, even if it’s only 1 extra turn (2 rounds of combat) that’s 40 extra damage spread out over 3 units in 1 turn vs the Archies 24 damage all game. The passive damage plus the extra bodies says (to me) the TLA is the better pick here. 

*I’m fudging the numbers a wee bit here by assuming that the skellie units are above 30, while the dryads are around 10, and that all 6 units are still in combat. This probably wouldn’t be the case in reality, but there’s very little way to tell what the numbers would be like in turn 4-5, so I’m just using this as an example.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Mirage8112

[overtninja]

6 hours ago, ElectricPaladin said:

Do you think Gnarlroot is going to keep it's Order wizard buddy?

I'd guess the wargrove itself won't, if they make wargroves work more like keyword sub-factions, but there might still be a battalion that allows you to include an order wizard ally.

[a74xhx]

Looking at the Looncurse book, the Squig battalion "Zaggit's Squigalanche" is based on the name of existing battalion Squigalanche, but the lineup is slightly different (to match the box contents) and the ability is completely different.

Wondering if the Sylvaneth battalion is giving any clues to the new battletome.....  I'm now expecting we'll get a "Wrathkin" battalion of similar composition.

Hoping we don't end up with any specifying the type of Kurnoth Hunter.

 

[Alezya]

The ability of this battalion kinda sucks lol... 

2 units of 5 TR (Bravery 6 with the ability to reroll a dice for battleshock test), and 1 unit of 3 Kurnoths with Bravery 7. 

 

[DantePQ]

And how much is this battalion if it's like 80 could be useful for lowering number of drops, CP and artifact, especially if you plan using those units 

[a74xhx]

29 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

And how much is this battalion if it's like 80 could be useful for lowering number of drops, CP and artifact, especially if you plan using those units 

It doesn't have any points. Assuming that's intentional so that people can't really use it outside looncurse.

[ElectricPaladin]

35 minutes ago, a74xhx said:

It doesn't have any points. Assuming that's intentional so that people can't really use it outside looncurse.

Don't these battalions usually get points eventually, though?

[Xil]

26 minutes ago, ElectricPaladin said:

Don't these battalions usually get points eventually, though?

Starterbox Battalions don't have points either, for how long I don't know 

[SolomonHelsing]

I don't believe starter, dual army, or battleforce box battalions will ever get points, Think that's saved for just battletome and GA ones, the latter of which battalions is being phased out of matched play it would seem RIP heavenswatch and bloodwatch. Plus the one from the seraphon battleforce was I think shadowstrike lite so little point it ever getting points. 

[ElectricPaladin]

Have we had any vigorous and baseless speculation about how spites will work (are they the same as endless spells? Are they more like invocations? Something entirely new?) and what our particular spites will do yet?

[Trevelyan]

13 minutes ago, ElectricPaladin said:

Have we had any vigorous and baseless speculation about how spites will work (are they the same as endless spells? Are they more like invocations? Something entirely new?) and what our particular spites will do yet?

I predict more like standard endless spells. Fyreslayers don’t have traditional wizards so needed something tailored to give them access to endless spell equivalents. Sylvaneth have more heroes that can cast spells than cannot so don’t need the same specialist treatment. 

But I would be happy to be wrong. 

[ElectricPaladin]

I have two reasons to believe that they won't work exactly like typical endless spells.

First, GW is calling them spites. In no cases so far have faction specific endless spells been called something else and then worked exactly like standard endless spells.

Second, there's no evidence that spites respond positively to anyone who isn't Sylvaneth, so I'm not sure why it would make sense for the other player to ever be able to control how a predatory spite/spell moves. I mean, the vengeful skullroot has a freaking lamentiri hung inside it! Why should a Nurgle sorcerer be able to boss it around the way he can a spell that is just a spell, like the purple sun or a burning head or whatever?

I have three theories right now:

1) They will operate like endless spells in as much as your vector for summoning them is a wizard and they can be dispelled or interacted with my warscrolls that specifically do things to endless spells (ie. eaten by banshees, moved around by spellportals), but the ones that move won't be "predatory" - they'll have some unique rule.

2) They will operate exactly like endless spells, including your opponent being able to direct them by taking second turn, but all of their positive effects will be Sylvaneth only and their negative effects will exclude Sylvaneth. So they're fickle and not very bright, but they'll never attack Sylvaneth or aid invaders.

3) They will be summoned by wizards but will be units rather than spells - ie. we know that spites are entities, so being that these are big-ass spites, they'll have wounds and stats like every other entity in the game.

Edited May 14, 2019 by ElectricPaladin

[Aezeal]

Or the wraith becomes a priest and it works like khorne priests...

[ElectricPaladin]

2 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

Or the wraith becomes a priest and it works like khorne priests...

I doubt that. We'd have only one priest in the army! Maybe, just maybe, we'll see multiple models turn into priests, like the branchwraith and the treelord ancient/spirit of durthu?

That said, the article mentioned that those "versed in life magic" can summon and direct spites, so this is unlikely, or if it does happen, it's likely not tied to the new endless spells.

[BetterOffGwen]

Hi all, I'm a new player in an escalation league working towards 2000 points. However, I'm on a more limited budget which constrains model opportunities a bit more. I've put together a 2000 pt Dreadwood list and I was wondering if I could get some input on what people think and how I could move things around.

2000 pt Dreadwood List

Leaders (3/6)

Treelord Ancient (300) General

-Warsinger, Briarsheath, Regrowth

Branchwych (80)

-Ramu's Lamentri, Verdant Blessing

Arch Revenant (100)

-Seed of Rebirth

Battleline (7/3)

30x Dryads (270)

1x 5 Tree Revenants (80)

5x 5 Spite Revenants (5 x 70 = 350)

9 Kurnoth Hunters (600)

- Scythes

Battalions

Outcasts (90)

Dreadwood Wargrove (90)

Wounds - 127

1960/2000 points

I own 3 halves of Looncurse, 1 SC, and 1 box of Dryads, so this list is everything I own minus 2 Dryads and 1 Arch Revenant (only have 2). I chose Scythes on the hunters so they could all hit on their alpha strike. I could switch a unit of Spite for Tree Revs, but I've already built 5 Tree Revs so they are stuck (their models are very pretty). I want to buy Alarielle, a Branchwraith, and more Dryads, but until the new tome is released, everything is on hold. Is this a battle viable list? What would people change? Maybe switching out a spite unit for another Arch-Revenant? Other thoughts? I have 8 "citadel wood" outlines that my shop allows in place of $240 of woods thankfully.

[Fyrm]

6 hours ago, ElectricPaladin said:

3) They will be summoned by wizards but will be units rather than spells - ie. we know that spites are entities, so being that these are big-ass spites, they'll have wounds and stats like every other entity in the game.

This is the one I feel would be most cool, but also feel is the least likely. If only because one of them is a hive, which can’t really move, although I suppose it could just have no movement value...huh, ya that works, alright I’m back onboard to aspires being summoned/dispelled like endless spells, but controlled/fight like units!!!

[Mirage8112]

6 hours ago, ElectricPaladin said:

I have two reasons to believe that they won't work exactly like typical endless spells.

First, GW is calling them spites. In no cases so far have faction specific endless spells been called something else and then worked exactly like standard endless spells.

Second, there's no evidence that spites respond positively to anyone who isn't Sylvaneth, so I'm not sure why it would make sense for the other player to ever be able to control how a predatory spite/spell moves. I mean, the vengeful skullroot has a freaking lamentiri hung inside it! Why should a Nurgle sorcerer be able to boss it around the way he can a spell that is just a spell, like the purple sun or a burning head or whatever?

I have three theories right now:

1) They will operate like endless spells in as much as your vector for summoning them is a wizard and they can be dispelled or interacted with my warscrolls that specifically do things to endless spells (ie. eaten by banshees, moved around by spellportals), but the ones that move won't be "predatory" - they'll have some unique rule.

2) They will operate exactly like endless spells, including your opponent being able to direct them by taking second turn, but all of their positive effects will be Sylvaneth only and their negative effects will exclude Sylvaneth. So they're fickle and not very bright, but they'll never attack Sylvaneth or aid invaders.

3) They will be summoned by wizards but will be units rather than spells - ie. we know that spites are entities, so being that these are big-ass spites, they'll have wounds and stats like every other entity in the game.

This is my exact thoughts. I do think the worm will function like a unit, while the tree (and whatever else we get) will work more like a judgement of Khorne or a traditional endless spell. Still too early to tell though 
 

[Lanoss]

@BetterOffGwen like where your heads at. I might suggest dropping that 5th unit of SRevs for another Branchwraith (with ToV) and just spam more dryads. 

Could even drop 10 dryads off that 30 blob and add another ArchRev. But I’m not sure on the utility of 2 ArchRevs yet... 

[BetterOffGwen]

Just did some math and your suggestion got me to a much tighter list. Dropped 10 Dryads and 5 Spite Revenants, knocking it down to 1820 points. If I add a Branchwraith and the second Arch Revenant I'll be at exactly 2000. Give the wraith the Ramu's Lamentri and she's casting dryad summons at 1+d3 casting. I'll need to buy another box of Dryads to have enough to summon, but it should be a pretty strong list. Thanks!

[Fyrm]

So, I figure I’ll share my rambling thoughts on our Spites. Just to be absolutely clear, these are all random and baseless speculation. I’m just bored and thinking what would be cool. 

General mechanics: All 3 would have a statblock like a unit. They can’t be set up, and can only be summoned with their corresponding spell. They can be dispelled like any endless spell, or they can be killed. Either way, once the model is off the table, it can’t be respawned, unless you have an unsommoned one of course. This would allow them to be a bit stronger for fewer points, because they have so many ways to be removed over a normal model [snipe the wizards turn 1, despell as normal, use special despelling mechanics]. 

Worm: The heavy hitter of the three. Would probably act as a sort of cavalry, fast move and hits hard on a charge. Probably would have some kinda burrowing movement mechanic. Similar to flight? But ya, this one would be fairly simple. Summon, throw into something you don’t want there anymore. 

Tree: I see it as super durable. Maybe some self regeneration, probably good saves/fnp. Basically the opposite role of the worm, you throw it as something you do want there for a while, and not elsewhere. Probably also has some bravery shinanigans, either directly or indirectly synergizing with the Spite Revenants. 

Hive: ranged. Has no or very little move. Has a shooting attack that is kinda like Drycha’s. Maybe even both, and you pick which each round! Would be rather fragile, and wouldn’t hit well in melee, so you summon it behind your lines and if they get to it then you accept it as gone and probably have lost your frontline anyways so ya. 

 

The reason I think all this is two fold primarily. First, all of that feels really cool to me! Second, those fill gaps in the army. We don’t really have much ranged, fast move models [shinanigans certainly mean we don’t need them as much, but still], or to my knowledge models that you can plop down and just hold for turn after turn [keep in mind I have only just begun assembling my army, and haven’t really made many rescissions because I’d like to wait for the new book before deciding much, but I have done my research]. 

[Lanoss]

12 minutes ago, BetterOffGwen said:

Just did some math and your suggestion got me to a much tighter list. Dropped 10 Dryads and 5 Spite Revenants, knocking it down to 1820 points. If I add a Branchwraith and the second Arch Revenant I'll be at exactly 2000. Give the wraith the Ramu's Lamentri and she's casting dryad summons at 1+d3 casting. I'll need to buy another box of Dryads to have enough to summon, but it should be a pretty strong list. Thanks!

Let us know how 2 ArchRevs go!

[ElectricPaladin]

@Fyrm don't discount the possibility that the tree is a support or contingency piece. With a name like "vengeful skullroot" I could see it debuffing or spitting out mortal wounds in response to nearby Sylvaneth dying.

[Craze]

Really like the speculations here, somer of the concepts would be really fluffy/cool.

Is there already any kind of information as to when the BT will be finally available or is it still stuck in some container in some harbour between China and the UK?