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AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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3 hours ago, Fyrm said:

Yes, coherency would be a major problem. My main lines of reasoning were these two:

first, it would allow more room for larger units of dryads to fit wholly within the woods, along side other units potentially. Coherency is 1” horizontal, 6” vertical, unless I’m mistaken. Not a huge use, but something to keep in mind. 

Second, it could make a hiding place for a little hero. Don’t want that branchwraith in combat? Port her to the treetops, where nothing can get to her. Sure, she can’t do much up there, but she should be able to buff or summon, and if the platform is <1” from an edge she could see out that edge. Turn the woods into an even harder bunker for her, perhaps. 

I doubt this’ll be an end all be all strategy, but it is a potential tactic I could use to my advantage, if I build the trees properly, so I figured I should check to see if I need to be building the trees properly or not. 

You are not safe on the treetops:

 

"Q: If I charge a model on a terrain feature, and there isn’t a space on which the charging model can stand, can it still make the charge move? A: Yes. As noted above, for simplicity and ease of play, models are assumed to be able to climb up any terrain feature, and can finish a move at any point when they do so (you will need to remember how far it has climbed, and measure distances and visibility to or from that model as if it were in that location).

(https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/age_of_sigmar_core_rules_designers_commentary_en.pdf, page 5)

 

Models can even hang under a branch, because GW rules*.

 

 

 

 

 

 

*the subject, not the verb

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4 hours ago, Isotop said:

You are not safe on the treetops:

 

"Q: If I charge a model on a terrain feature, and there isn’t a space on which the charging model can stand, can it still make the charge move? A: Yes. As noted above, for simplicity and ease of play, models are assumed to be able to climb up any terrain feature, and can finish a move at any point when they do so (you will need to remember how far it has climbed, and measure distances and visibility to or from that model as if it were in that location).

(https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/age_of_sigmar_core_rules_designers_commentary_en.pdf, page 5)

 

Models can even hang under a branch, because GW rules*.

 

 

 

 

 

 

*the subject, not the verb

That’s...huh. That’s kinda awkward, but meh, it’s still a neat thingy to do, and may open up options. Or not, and I don’t really lose anything. 

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13 hours ago, Aryann said:

Are you having fun with your May & Might Friend? Cause I don't want to disturb you.

By guessing and making assumptions you have no ground to make, you suggest I'm a bad tactician and create an image of a person that doesn't exist. Just because I didn't write 10 paragrafs about cooking and my tactics in detail doesn't mean I don't understand the basics.

Lol. I like you. You’re tenacious and a wee bit salty. I’ve looked through your posts over last couple of months and you show a clear disdain for things you don’t like and dismiss anybody who thinks otherwise. 

I know you’re not a native English speaker (don’t get me wrong, your English is great. But I noticed you mentioned so in a previous thread) so maybe you misunderstood my intentions. I wasn’t using conditional statements like may/might/if because I was trying to make you something out to be you aren't. I was using them because the tone of your post has a lot in way of opinions and not in the way of explanation. I’m trying to figure out why we see these units differently, because I see them having a lot of usefulness. I win a lot, and they are usually a big part of why. 

You complain about how easily T-revs die. As I said above “If you don’t understand why that’s useful thats 75% of your problem”. So, since you asked nicely, I’ll not make assumptions and ask you a direct question: do you know why that’s a good thing? or not? 

 

13 hours ago, Aryann said:
17 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

From what your saying you see the combat phase as being the only way to win games. If you see T-revs as only being used in combat that make sense. 

No. I did not say that. Nor I gave reasons to draw such a conclusion.

You didn’t give me a reason to draw that conclusion? 
 

13 hours ago, Aryann said:

With Tree-Revenants the thing is... they are close to useless... It’s their survivability on one end and their poor dmg outcome on the other.

13 hours ago, Aryann said:

Now count how much damage will you provide with Kurnoth Hunters with Swords for the same points as Bows. Go ahead. Show your math. And yes, make a second equation for fighting versus heroes. 

Those two quotes do nothing to mention the ability to redirect a charge, board control, misdirection, pressure at range or anything else you can do that doesn’t involve the combat phase. All you talk about are how “things die to too fast” or “don’t do enough damage”.  That to me says the only thing you pay attention to is the combat phase and units damage output. I don’t think thats an unreasonable assumption to make given I know nothing about you and all you talk about is how something performs in combat. 
 

13 hours ago, Aryann said:

Although I still believe that both, KHwBows and Tree-Revenants can have better rules and/or stats. Simply better rules for what they are designed. Thay are not balanced well enough to perform the roles they are designed to. That was my whole point from the beginning.


I get that you have an opinion on that based on your experience, but as I said above I have a different experience using them. I’m not saying that they don’t suck in your games, I’m saying they rock in mine. What’s the difference? It’s not that we’re using different profiles, so we must be using them differently or have different expectations of how they should perform.

But you know what? I wont make assumptions that you don’t know how to use them (since that seems to bother you so much). I’ll just ask you: how are you using them? How many are you taking in a unit? How many units are you taking? Do you deploy them immediately or keep them off the board? What’s your WW placement like? How many WW’s are you taking? What’s your army list composition like? Are you taking battalions? Are you single dropping? Do you try for first turn or nor? 

Here’s your chance not to look like a “big beefcake guy” and give a more complete picture of your playstyle and tactics. After all, that’s what this thread is for: discussion and tactics. If you just want to complain I’m fairly sure you can find a reddit thread where you can vent to your heart’s content and not have anybody bothering you by trying to help. 

 

13 hours ago, Aryann said:

What would I change? For both [Kurnoth Hunters with Bows] and [Tree-Rev] change the To Hit to 3+. Or give {Kurnoth Hunters with Bows] 3 attacks instead of 2 as people guessed when GW published the warscroll picture of them.. Or maybe give [T-revs] 2 dmg for normal troops and 3dmg for Scion so that they could stand a chance to actually kill something tougher than skinny wizard. Make it a commando unit. Not a "run & die" unit they are. You can think otherwise, that's completely fine. I believe those two units need a boost. Someday we even might see one officially.

Changing the Hunters with bows hit to 3+ boosts their dmg output by 8%. On average that’s 5.8 damage vs 4.4. So right now they’re garbage because they do 1.4 less wound than you would like? Cmon man don't you think you’re exaggerating a bit? 

When Kurnoth hunters came out they were 180 points and had exactly the same statline they have now. They positively dominated the game and were one of the reasons shooting armies ruled the game in the first iterations of AoS. Players absolutely hated them and they got hit hard by a points increase to 220 in the second GHB. GW toned shooting down quite a bit in the game by giving characters some protection and removed the easy access to +hit and consequently dropped hunters to 200. 

GW is pretty clear they do not want shooting to dominate the game which is why Bow Hunters are stat’ed the way they are. Our army is very difficult to kill if played correctly and as such is very good at holding troops in place for multiple turns which shooting units pick them apart. Making hunters baseline damage too much higher is a return to old AoS and it’s pretty clear GW (and the players) don’t want that to happen, since they want melee-only armies (like blades of Khorne) to be viable on the tabletop. This is also why they adjusted armies like Discples of TZ to be slightly less dominate in the magic phase through magical shooting, since thier armies mortal wound output was nearly impossible to for most armies to handle. 

If you’r really dedicated to improving KH damage output at range you can add +1 attack to them via an arch revenant and boost their damage significantly between a command ability and RR1’s to 7.6 damage per turn. To make use of that you’ll have to pay a 100pt premium since shooting units have a higher tactical value in the game. There you go. Problem solved  

And T-revs to 2 damage apiece? 3 damage on a Scion for 80 points? Your kidding right? You’re talking about doubling their damage output and putting them on par with a unit of Kurnoth hunters who cost 120 points more. That’s crazy “I want my army to steamroll everything because winning is only fun if you crush your opponent under the heels of your boots” talk. We already have a unit that does Kurnoth-hunter level damage: they’re called “Kurnoth hunters”. You can take 3 for 200 points. You should try them. I hear they even have a bow variant.... 

 

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1 hour ago, Mirage8112 said:

Lol. I like you. You’re tenacious and a wee bit salty. I’ve looked through your posts over last couple of months and you show a clear disdain for things you don’t like and dismiss anybody who thinks otherwise. 

I know you’re not a native English speaker (don’t get me wrong, your English is great. But I noticed you mentioned so in a previous thread) so maybe you misunderstood my intentions. I wasn’t using conditional statements like may/might/if because I was trying to make you something out to be you aren't. I was using them because the tone of your post has a lot in way of opinions and not in the way of explanation. I’m trying to figure out why we see these units differently, because I see them having a lot of usefulness. I win a lot, and they are usually a big part of why. 

You complain about how easily T-revs die. As I said above “If you don’t understand why that’s useful thats 75% of your problem”. So, since you asked nicely, I’ll not make assumptions and ask you a direct question: do you know why that’s a good thing? or not? 

 

You didn’t give me a reason to draw that conclusion? 
 

Those two quotes do nothing to mention the ability to redirect a charge, board control, misdirection, pressure at range or anything else you can do that doesn’t involve the combat phase. All you talk about are how “things die to too fast” or “don’t do enough damage”.  That to me says the only thing you pay attention to is the combat phase and units damage output. I don’t think thats an unreasonable assumption to make given I know nothing about you and all you talk about is how something performs in combat. 
 


I get that you have an opinion on that based on your experience, but as I said above I have a different experience using them. I’m not saying that they don’t suck in your games, I’m saying they rock in mine. What’s the difference? It’s not that we’re using different profiles, so we must be using them differently or have different expectations of how they should perform.

But you know what? I wont make assumptions that you don’t know how to use them (since that seems to bother you so much). I’ll just ask you: how are you using them? How many are you taking in a unit? How many units are you taking? Do you deploy them immediately or keep them off the board? What’s your WW placement like? How many WW’s are you taking? What’s your army list composition like? Are you taking battalions? Are you single dropping? Do you try for first turn or nor? 

Here’s your chance not to look like a “big beefcake guy” and give a more complete picture of your playstyle and tactics. After all, that’s what this thread is for: discussion and tactics. If you just want to complain I’m fairly sure you can find a reddit thread where you can vent to your heart’s content and not have anybody bothering you by trying to help. 

 

Changing the Hunters with bows hit to 3+ boosts their dmg output by 8%. On average that’s 5.8 damage vs 4.4. So right now they’re garbage because they do 1.4 less wound than you would like? Cmon man don't you think you’re exaggerating a bit? 

When Kurnoth hunters came out they were 180 points and had exactly the same statline they have now. They positively dominated the game and were one of the reasons shooting armies ruled the game in the first iterations of AoS. Players absolutely hated them and they got hit hard by a points increase to 220 in the second GHB. GW toned shooting down quite a bit in the game by giving characters some protection and removed the easy access to +hit and consequently dropped hunters to 200. 

GW is pretty clear they do not want shooting to dominate the game which is why Bow Hunters are stat’ed the way they are. Our army is very difficult to kill if played correctly and as such is very good at holding troops in place for multiple turns which shooting units pick them apart. Making hunters baseline damage too much higher is a return to old AoS and it’s pretty clear GW (and the players) don’t want that to happen, since they want melee-only armies (like blades of Khorne) to be viable on the tabletop. This is also why they adjusted armies like Discples of TZ to be slightly less dominate in the magic phase through magical shooting, since thier armies mortal wound output was nearly impossible to for most armies to handle. 

If you’r really dedicated to improving KH damage output at range you can add +1 attack to them via an arch revenant and boost their damage significantly between a command ability and RR1’s to 7.6 damage per turn. To make use of that you’ll have to pay a 100pt premium since shooting units have a higher tactical value in the game. There you go. Problem solved  

And T-revs to 2 damage apiece? 3 damage on a Scion for 80 points? Your kidding right? You’re talking about doubling their damage output and putting them on par with a unit of Kurnoth hunters who cost 120 points more. That’s crazy “I want my army to steamroll everything because winning is only fun if you crush your opponent under the heels of your boots” talk. We already have a unit that does Kurnoth-hunter level damage: they’re called “Kurnoth hunters”. You can take 3 for 200 points. You should try them. I hear they even have a bow variant.... 

 

I'm a very average player, I have almost no experience in AoS 2.0 (thanks to my 6 month old son) and you have no idea how interesting and Informative your discussion is.

Maybe it's not really pleasant for you, but for people like me? Oh yeah.

It's really cool to watch the argue between two experienced and confident players.

 

So, go on, go on. :D

 

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33 minutes ago, Heksagon said:

I'm a very average player, I have almost no experience in AoS 2.0 (thanks to my 6 month old son) and you have no idea how interesting and Informative your discussion is.

Maybe it's not really pleasant for you, but for people like me? Oh yeah.

It's really cool to watch the argue between two experienced and confident players.

 

So, go on, go on. :D

Lol. It’s not unpleasant for me actually, providing the discussion doesn’t go around in circles and that we don’t start misrepresenting each other’s position to make ourselves look better. 

These type of discussions are usually pretty informative: tabletop wargaming is typically a very complicated affair. Not only are lots of rules to remember, but there are TONS of choices to make over the course of game. Those choices start the minute you pick up an army book and try to decide what units to take. 

The other issue is that while some of those choices are super obvious, (No, you probably dont want to get charged by the huge unit of stormcast retributors coming at you full-tilt) but others are not so obvious (you’re definitely going to get charged by something this turn, how do you make the charge you can’t avoid less devastating for you? Or, even better, how do you make your opponent regret charging you?).

The other issue is we as humans are creatures of habit, which means if something works for you, you typically try to do that thing over and over and over. The problem with that is often we tend to do the same things even after they stop being as effective (because they are predictable, or your opponent learns how to counter them) because they’ve become habit, sometimes so much so we aren’t even aware that we’re doing them. This is why I feel it’s super important to know what every single unit in a Battletome does, what it’s good at, what it’s not good at and what role they fill on the battlefield. This begins with knowing your own army top-to-bottom front-to-back, and eventually ends with you learning what every unit in every other Battletome does. 

For example, my major loss at Adepticon was to a Legions of Nagash player who formerly played Sylvaneth; specifically the battalion I was playing: Dreadwood. Legions of Nagash had been released about a month before the tournament and I had absolutely 0 experience against playing against the army. He knew everything my army was capable of and I had no idea what to expect.

I made a few key mistakes early on by trying to fight units I had no business fighting instead of using my spites as chaff to slow his advance. He wiped 17 drayds out of a unit of 30 with a bunch of skeletons. I was forced to retreat, regroup and spent the whole game on the back foot, trying to work out a strategy on the fly, against an unknown opponent, who had total knowledge of what my army could do. Ultimately, I fought him to a standstill and nearly managed a minor loss. But, thanks to a custom scenario for the tournament he managed to steal the last objective from me due to unit size (F*@%$&ing skeletons just don’t stay dead). He was able to outplay me because he knew his army and mine, and I only knew mine. 

The one thing I don’t want to do is dominate the debate ( I work from home, so I have time on my hands which means I usually respond more frequently than other members).

So please feel free to jump in with points or questions or your own experience. The more minds on the problem means better solutions.  The number of games you’ve played doesn’t matter, any observations are valuable .
 

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1 minute ago, TheGrayKing said:

@Mirage8112 since you're highly experienced in playing sylvaneth I was curious as to your opinion on the Heartwood Battalion. How well could a Heartwood Battalion focused army stand up to the more "meta" armies like DoK and such?

Seconding this. Heartwood interested me greatly and there have been a few times I've almost come on this site to ask opinions.

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3 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

If you’r really dedicated to improving KH damage output at range you can add +1 attack to them via an arch revenant and boost their damage significantly between a command ability and RR1’s to 7.6 damage per turn. To make use of that you’ll have to pay a 100pt premium since shooting units have a higher tactical value in the game. There you go. Problem solved  

Can't: the RR 1's is general, the +1 attack is melee weapons in combat phase. This is one of the reasons I think bows will not get used that much more than they are now.

 

3 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Changing the Hunters with bows hit to 3+ boosts their dmg output by 8%. On average that’s 5.8 damage vs 4.4. So right now they’re garbage because they do 1.4 less wound than you would like? Cmon man don't you think you’re exaggerating a bit? 

4.4 to 5.8.. that is more than 25 right?

 

BTW while I acknowledge your wins as a good argument for your tactics I do agree with Aryann that T-rev damage output is a bit low and not fitting with their elitish status. I'll admit an additional attack at their current point value is not realistic I'd personally think they'd be better balanced at 3+/3+.. and IMHO it would fit better with the lore.. 4+ to hit.. I mean.. the lowest of the lowest goblin/human etc has a 4+ to hit. 

(PS I know there isn't a lot of room for GW to differentiate in to hit rolls; 6+ is non existant. 5+ mean really really terrible attacks which hardly anything that sees combat has.. 4+ is average warrior and 3+ is elite while 2+ is so rare it represents a level of combat skill non characters in general don't have.. which is GW should change hit rolls to D8 or change what a 2+ now is to a 1+ (and not 1's always fail) and use the 5+ and even 6+ more .) For wounding it's less of a problem to me for some reason (I think the 2+ and 5+ are used a bit more in wounding anyway)

 

Now a more general question about terrain rules. If you can pile in onto a wall (of the cemetary) 2 inch high, but DON'T have enough space or pile-in range to drop down 2 inch. Can you attack a unit that is 1 inch next to the wall (with a unit that has 1 inch range). It came up today because I wanted to pile in with a hunter (bow) who was on one side of the wall, and on the other side of the wall (about 1.5 inch) was a Bloodthirster. I though I'd be able to go up 2 inch, move slightly towards the thirster (but I'd still be on the wall with it's base) and then (ignoring vertical distance) I'd be within 1 ".  Including vertical height my base would probably be in 1"of some part of his model.. but my BASE would be 2"and a bit from his base....

What happens.

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1 hour ago, cr0magz said:

What would the average summoning pool for an army with alarielle and a branch wraith look like? 

For me... 3 hunters (we don't insist on WYSIWYG so I just have 3 to use as whatever) for alarielle, and then about 20 dryads.

But that is in an already dryad heavy army. If you have a low model count army you might consider another 20 dryads too potentially summon with alarielle. Also if WYSIWYG is important in your area I'd have 3 bow and 3 sword hunters in reserve.

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36 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

Can't: the RR 1's is general, the +1 attack is melee weapons in combat phase. This is one of the reasons I think bows will not get used that much more than they are now.

Good call. I’m unfamiliar with that unit and I guess it shows 😂. RR ones is still not a bad add boosting their damage by almost 1. 

36 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

4.4 to 5.8.. that is more than 25 right?

Sorry I meant boosts their chance to do damage by 8% since the jump from 4+ to 3+ is a 16% advantage on 1 stat. (With the RR 1’s it brings that chance down to a little over 5%)

Overall, that about a 25% to damage done, but that’s a little misleading since it’s still just over 1 wound.

 

 

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3 hours ago, TheGrayKing said:

@Mirage8112 since you're highly experienced in playing sylvaneth I was curious as to your opinion on the Heartwood Battalion. How well could a Heartwood Battalion focused army stand up to the more "meta" armies like DoK and such?

@TheGrayKing @Thalassic Monstrosity That’s a good question. 

Heartwood is one of the battalions that sort of got glossed over when our Battletome came out since you were required to hold points in reserve for summon units to the field. I don’t think anybody here has played it. 

That being said, if I had to sit down and write a list for this, it would probably look something like this:

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
Mortal Realm: Ghyran
Spirit of Durthu (380)
- General
- Trait: Gift of Ghyran  
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike 
10 x Tree-Revenants (160)
10 x Tree-Revenants (160)
30 x Dryads (270)
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200)
- Scythes
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200)
- Swords
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200)
- Swords
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200)
- Swords
Free Spirits (120)
Heartwood Wargrove (80)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 122

You don’t have a lot of flexibility in list building here, since you have to take 4 units of hunters and a Durthu and still make battleline. Since you can only bring back Revenants or Dryads, the first couple of turn you’re probably using your 2+ roll (+4 to dice roll for each unit of hunters on the field) to bring back revenants, so I’ve bumped up both units to 10, since bringing back 5 revenants is probably a waste of time and 10 stand a better chance to do some damage in combat anyway. 

You’ll only have 1 forest on the board since you can’t really fit any support casters in and still come in under 2k. So your dryads will probably be stuck in the forest all game (preferably on an objective), with a unit of 1 hunters with scythes + durthu waiting to attack anybody that attempts to charge (i put a healing item on him since he suffers so badly from losing more than 1 wound). It will probably take your enemy 2-3 turns to kill all the dryads off before you need to spend your roll to bring them back. And durthu + 1 unit of hunters can attack back over them relatively safely and mostly wont need to worry about shooting unless the enemy can fly.


Since you don’t have a second forest, you’ll need to use your remaining 3 hunters in a moving formation, screened by 1 of your 2 units T-revs, (since t-revs can easily catch up thanks to waypipes they are ideal for keeping up with the hunters), letting you make up for your lack of WW by moving them in your hero phase. 

You last group of T-revs can run interference or generally hold objective and generally be annoying. It’s ideal to lose 1 unit of rev a turn, because you can just bring them back on a 2+.

Because your hunters need to be alive to get the bonus to bringing units back you have to protect them at all costs.  

The weird thing about this army is that I think you never would want to charge. Your dryad bunker needs to stay in the forest for bonuses, and your second hunter formation will basically move up and get in the enemy’s face, but not charge. You need to get charged so your hunters can root and reroll failed saves. Also, if you charge your hunters need to come within 1/2” which means you either clear the unit completely (in a lot of cases, that’s unlikely, triple unlikely because your hunters are split in 3 groups and can’t all attack at once), or you risk eating attacks back, and as I said above, you can’t afford to lose a single unit of hunters. If you fail a roll, you’ll have a spare unit of revenants hanging around (hopefully holding objectives you’ve managed to push him off of). 

So, here’s how I see it working.

You’ll be one drop, so you give them first turn ideally.

They use their first turn to get in position. 

In your first turn, you get your Dryads + durthu to get bunkered and stay put.

On the other side of the map, you use 3 hunters surrounded by T-revs to move up within 3” (somebody like DoK will probably have moved up aggressively, and since you’ll not be charging you can move in your hero phase, and then move + run in your phase for an average movement of 13”) and pretend to threaten a unit.

The other guy thinks your crazy, and charges top of turn 2, wipes out T-revs to a man. Then 3 units of hunters with swords  all hit back and wipe out whatever attacked you.

Then it’s your turn.

Use your 2+ roll (pray you don’t fail), and bring your t-revs back. 

If you managed to wipe out whatever hit you, you teleport the other 10 T-revs 9” away from the next closest unit, move the 3 units of Hunters up and dare him to charge you again. Waypipe your newly resurrected T-revs where the old ones were and rinse repeat. If (by some miracle) your t-rev screen survives you need to sacrifice it and move your fresh screen up to take it’s place. Since you have 2 screens you have a little maneuverability but honestly, not much room for error here. 

You’ll almost never want a double turn, mostly because you don’t want the enemy to be able to wipe out your screen, and then charge your unguarded hunters  before you can bring your screen back. if your enemy figures this out and makes you take a double turn, you’ll need to bring your spare T-revs in and “double wrap” your 3 hunters attack squad.

Will it work? Hell I dunno. Looks good on paper tho! 

It’s weakness will likely be magic, shooting and anything with a 3” reach that can ignore your hunters and attack over your screens. You’ll have the woods to give durthu some cover (and he has a wee bit of shooting + stomp + heal to give your bunker an edge). The good news that is your hunters are pretty resilient, and can take a few hits before their damage output really suffers.  Each unit of 3 swords will do an average of 18 wounds apiece (so 3*18= 44 wounds per combat phase) and each can take 15 wounds before expiring. I would probably think that your enemy will start focusing them down with magic/shooting after the first turn, so as you get down to 1 hunter, move him backward while the other 2 press forward, so you can preserve your bonus to the resurrection roll. 

Like I said, I don’t know how viable it will be, but by continuously resurrecting your screens, your damage dealers should be able to chew through his units without much fear of reprisal. The only way to know for sure is to play it a bunch of times and see if it works as well in practice as it does on paper. 
   

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1 hour ago, tman3257 said:

You get +1 to the roll if there are ANY Kurnoth Hunters on the battlefield, not for each.

Yep. That’s true. I clearly misread that (shows how familiar I am with the battalion.). At first I thought that was a dealbreaker, but the more I look at it. The less I think it maters, provide you make a few changes.

If you dropped the T-revs down to 5 apiece instead of 10, that would give you an extra 160 points to play with. In that case you could take 3 units of T-revs instead of 2, and I’d probably also take a support caster. Likely a branchwraith with acorn for some back-up woods and regrowth to help top up your hunters letting them weather shooting a bit longer, and the ability to get some spells to possibly awaken the WW and the potential to bring dryads on the board in the early phases of the game. That makes the list look like this:

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
Mortal Realm: Ghyran
Spirit of Durthu (380)
- General
- Trait: Gift of Ghyran  
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike 
Branchwraith (80)
- Artefact: acorn
-Deepwood spell: Regrowth

5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)

30 x Dryads (270)
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200)
- Scythes
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200)
- Swords
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200)
- Swords
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200)
- Swords
Free Spirits (120)
Heartwood Wargrove (80)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 122


The strategy would probably be the same. Since you’ll not be charging (at all) you’ll only need to weather 4 rounds of combat (instead of 8 with your mobile hunters). If you can’t break a unit entirely after they wipe your screen, you use your free move to move back, your actual move to move back again, and then put another screen in between since you’ve just moved 10”(you possibly run for a bit extra) and you only need 9” to bring your revenants in. 

You have 3 units of Hunters you need to screen, and (believe it or not) each unit 5 t-revs can give you a screen 15 inches wide. (5 x 1” bases +1” coherency between 5 models + 3” no move zone on each side x 2 sides 5+4+6 = 15”).  3 hunters in a unit means each hunter unit is roughly 4.5 inches across (1.5 inch bases x 3 = 4.5 inches) so if they are 2 inches back, slightly staggered you should be able to fit them all in behind a single screen.

It’s a shame it isn’t for “each hunter” as I thought, but the more I look at it, the less I think that matters. You won’t put your mobile hunter unit in combat till turn 2, and hopefully you’ll only lose 1 screen per turn. On a roll of 5+, you have a 1 in 3 or 30% chance to bring 1 lost screen back per turn, and you really only need the screens for turns 2-4. (If you lose all the hunters turn 5 who cares? At that point it’s VP and not losses that will matter). With a wraith (hopefully) summoning dryads to bolster your bunker they should last all game unless you opponent dedicates a lot to taking it out. 

All of this will depend on your battleplan of course.  T-revs are fast, and can hopefully get onto an objective before your opponent, Hunters are pretty fast as well thanks to the free spirits battalion, and since they wont be charging, they can still run.  Dryads + durthu in the murder forest will be hard to shift without spilling a lot of blood, and if worse comes to worse, depending on the battleplan, you can put your free forest down on a midfield objective, single drop, take first turn, drop a second forest midfield with acorn,  teleport everything into the forest spread over 2 objectives, screen your hunter with 2 T-revs (in case of a double turn), and dare your opponent to do anything about it. He wont really be able to shoot them (unless he can fly, and even then the best he can do is likely wipe out a screen,  and charging into the forest works to your advantage. Then push up the screened hunters when you have an opening.

I know it sounds bonkers to try something like this, but its not that dissimilar to how I play my dreadwood list. I lose a lot of models when I play, but with T-revs able to hold objectives and be anywhere else if needed at a moments notice, it might be distracting enough that your opponent focuses on taking the hunters or your bunker out (since he needs the objectives they’re holding) and spends too much time doing it since he wont be able to get past the screens (and when they die, you can just replace it with another and have a 30% to bring it back for use later. 

Generally all you need to do is hold more objectives than him for 3 turns, hold as many as him for 1, and whatever happens turn 5 doesn’t really mater. 

  

  






 

Edited by Mirage8112
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I just love the Tree revenants, they where the main reason I even picked up the Sylvaneth in the first place 

Have they been a disapointment? Yes they have, I dont know how many times my unit of 5 have charged in and died horrible. 

But after reading through the last posts, I am considering, that I might have look at them wrong. 

If I played more games than I do, I would probaly get better results. As a casual gamer, I need stuff thas is easy to use, the Tree revenants does not fall in that categori. 

More investment more output seems to be the case. 

Thanks. 

(sorry for bad english) 

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13 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Lol. I like you. You’re tenacious and a wee bit salty. I’ve looked through your posts over last couple of months and you show a clear disdain for things you don’t like and dismiss anybody who thinks otherwise.

Oh you would have known me even better if some of my latter posts weren't deleted by moderation.

13 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

But you know what? I wont make assumptions that you don’t know how to use them (since that seems to bother you so much). I’ll just ask you: how are you using them? How many are you taking in a unit? How many units are you taking? Do you deploy them immediately or keep them off the board? What’s your WW placement like? How many WW’s are you taking? What’s your army list composition like? Are you taking battalions? Are you single dropping? Do you try for first turn or nor?

I don't want to be rude but to put it simple: I don't want to spend an hour or so writing essays. It's not a pissing contest, nor do you need my curriculum vitae to talk about a certain units' flaws. Nor I want to put you in position to judge me. That's not the point of this chat.

13 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Changing the Hunters with bows hit to 3+ boosts their dmg output by 8%. On average that’s 5.8 damage vs 4.4. So right now they’re garbage because they do 1.4 less wound than you would like? Cmon man don't you think you’re exaggerating a bit?

I will reverse the quetion: If this is such a minor, meaningless improvement why not implement it? Everyone will be satisfied. You must be aware there are some issues with shooting now the other way. At first it was too strong, now it's too weak and armies like Kharadrons suffer much. In my opinion the other KH are better enough not to even bother with KHwB.

13 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

If you’r really dedicated to improving KH damage output at range you can add +1 attack to them via an arch revenant and boost their damage significantly between a command ability and RR1’s to 7.6 damage per turn. To make use of that you’ll have to pay a 100pt premium since shooting units have a higher tactical value in the game. There you go. Problem solved 

Not really. Yoo suggest what I wrote before - taking a good unit to buff a weak unit in order to make an average unit. It's smarter to take a good unit (KHw Swords/Scythes), buff it with AR and receive a great unit.

 

11 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Lol. It’s not unpleasant for me actually, providing the discussion doesn’t go around in circles and that we don’t start misrepresenting each other’s position to make ourselves look better.

I don't want that either. That's why I'm not going to force my opinion over yours and will actually agree to some of your points.

13 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

You complain about how easily T-revs die. As I said above “If you don’t understand why that’s useful thats 75% of your problem”. So, since you asked nicely, I’ll not make assumptions and ask you a direct question: do you know why that’s a good thing? or not?

You talked about "chaff" which was troublesome.
image.png.905cdc84ea7b9fba6a82ac46e0b6e4e3.png
Seriously, what trick is this? Making fun of me? It's your obssesion with food and cooking? You want to see Tree-Revenants with pitchfork or what? What good comes from this?
image.png.b8d3988afabc894ebb05463cb00146a8.png
Jokes aside I googled the right thing. Read the examples of chaff tactics. Answearing your question directly: no, I didn't use Tree-Revenants in that way. Just for VP capturing unit or harassing support units on the back. For "chaff" I used Wyldwoods, like placing them on potential charging routes of opponents units or units that wouldn't be obliterated on first contact.
So in the end thank you as I've learned new way to use TR.
However, I wish they were something more. A unit that could succesfuly harass weaker battleline and force opponent to guard his VP more,  giving me space to control the board. Their potential dmg output is low enough to ignore them in most cases.

13 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

 

13 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

And T-revs to 2 damage apiece? 3 damage on a Scion for 80 points? Your kidding right?

I'm not a mathhammer kind of guy. I will trust you on this one. All I wanted is a unit that has other abilities than blocking strong opponent's unit by getting itself killed. Like recapturing VP. If it meant point's increase - that's fine for me. After all GW does it all the time (well, once a year) in GHB.

Since you look like a skilled player I would like to know your opinion on this: what would you change in TR so that they can play the role I suggest (not only me according to forums).

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21 hours ago, Aezeal said:

But.. no saves against mortal wounds... doesn't that sound lovely :D

Many other armies have FNP saves, and some even get bonuses to that FNP save if its a mortal wound. It's common enough in my local meta that I just want as many gauranteed (or nearly guaranteed) wounds after armor saves that they have to roll their FNP saves against. -2 rend does that for me, while -1 will leave many models with a 1/3 or 1/2 chance of saving.

Even having seen the math, I think it boils down to a personal, emotional thing. Wargaming isn't a dispassionate pursuit - it can be hard not to be disappointed by a flubbed combat phase, or a double turn at a critical moment, or costly mistakes on your end. Even if it's not statistically ideal, seeing a whole lot of wounds go through unsaved on an attack makes me feel better as a player than seeing a bunch get saved with some mortal wounds going through.

That and I play Dreadwood, so I'm already deep into gambling on good rolls, since I'm relying on fewer models to do work.

I'll eventually build Sword Kurnoth, at least a group of 3, and try them out. They make great allies for my Wanderers, and they'll be nice to slot in for a 2.5k if I ever play something that big. Currently, though, I'll be building the Looncurse box and Ynarri's dudesman (who are actually fantastic to ally with Wanderers at 1k or 1.5k thanks to their cost).

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Um, also, I just built my Arch-Revenant, and while it appears pretty monopose, you have some leeway on a few things if you are crafty. I built the first one with the stock pose, but once I get a second one, I think you could easily build it so that it's right arm (the tree-looking one holding the shield normally) is raised up, and then put the flappy sprite on that arm, and put the shield on the model's back. Then, you could angle the spear arm downward, so it looks like it's being carried rather than planted. Lastly, with a bit of trimming of the right foot (which has a little slot to fit in the skull) and a bit of repositioning, you could model the Revenent so that it looks like it's jumping off the skull and starting to fly, with the spite carrying the model.

... Maybe a picture would work better.

like this kind of.jpeg

I think it could look pretty neat!

Edited by overtninja
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