AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Lhw]

So you have changed your mind @Isotop? Think it does require LoS? 

[Lhw]

It's a good point, @Isotop, as the Medusa has the same wording - it mentions visibility. I just think that purely because they do mention it, doesn't change the fact that the core rules now say that missile weapons need line of sight, which is what this is. 

I'm a Sylvaneth player, so it's not as if I have an agenda here. I love the idea of sitting Drycha in woods spamming out mortals, but just as it is, I don't see any evidence suggesting her missile weapon ignores the core rules for missile weapons. 

[Twh30]

Maybe could see this as an attempt to balance it for our opponents for los. Would be slight weird that blocks everyone else’s missile weoponsand not ours. Possibly pushing us to play the army in certain ways?

[romhi]

My last addition and a some more food for thought would be a quote from the core book itself:

"Most warscrolls include one
or more abilities that can be used
by the warscroll’s models during a
game of Warhammer Age of Sigmar.
Abilities take precedence over the
core rules." (Core Book, pg.:238)

This was the leading argument at the start of my latest tournament.
 

[Lhw]

4 minutes ago, romhi said:

My last addition and a some more food for thought would be a quote from the core book itself:

"Most warscrolls include one
or more abilities that can be used
by the warscroll’s models during a
game of Warhammer Age of Sigmar.
Abilities take precedence over the
core rules." (Core Book, pg.:238)

This was the leading argument at the start of my latest tournament.
 

Where in Drycha's rules does it say you ignore LoS? That would be the ability taking precedence. Just because it doesn't mention something, doesn't mean it ignores it, if it is in the core rules. 

[romhi]

4 minutes ago, Lhw said:

Where in Drycha's rules does it say you ignore LoS? That would be the ability taking precedence. Just because it doesn't mention something, doesn't mean it ignores it, if it is in the core rules. 

Nowhere, and there is not a word about it requiring any visibility either. That is my point. It is vague enough to warrant discussion, which brings me back to my very original advice: discuss it with your judge/friend/opponent and come to an understanding.

[Kaylethia]

34 minutes ago, Lhw said:

Where in Drycha's rules does it say you ignore LoS? That would be the ability taking precedence. Just because it doesn't mention something, doesn't mean it ignores it, if it is in the core rules. 

I'd argue that the ability takes precedence, since it changes the entire attack sequence and doesn't select targets or pick units.

[Lhw]

@Kaylethia equally the ability doesn't specify that it doesn't need Line of Sight. And it is a missile weapon. 

[Kaylethia]

@Lhw And the attack sequence (both shooting and melee) state that you need to have line of sight to the target unit. 

But I'm going with @romhi, until there's an FAQ, it up to talking about it with your TO, judge or opponent and working something out.

[Cblackaus]

Some help please ... 

 

with Dreadwood subterfuge rule do you rollnfor it before or after the choice is made for who takes first turn.

 

on the weekend, I played my first ever AoS tournament and was always used to going first (I have a 2 drop dreadwood lost).  But I played a 1 drop nurgle list and opponent said I had to roll for subterfuge and then make movements and then he would decide if it was me or him that took the first turn. 

FWIW I cam 7/74 and had a great time :) 

[Aezeal]

11 hours ago, Lhw said:

@romhi the core rules say:

"MISSILE WEAPONS
In order to attack with a missile
weapon, the model using the weapon
must be in range of the target unit
(i.e. within the maximum distance,
in inches, of the Range listed for the
weapon making the attack), and the
target unit must be visible to the
model with the weapon"

It's listed as a missile weapon on Drycha's profile. It may have been played previously as not needing LoS, but I guess it came up less then? Now, with Wyldwoods rules, probs more likely to happen. I really think it clearly needs LoS. 

No. The ability just says all units for flitterfuries there is no disclaimer that it's otherwise.. it's an AoS ability.

Even for squirmlings I don't think line of sight is needed myself it says pick a unit and that is all that is relevant.

 

10 hours ago, Isotop said:

What would be your reaction to my Thundertusk argument? (no offense)

My reaction to that argument would that you are right. 

[Lhw]

7 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

No. The ability just says all units for flitterfuries there is no disclaimer that it's otherwise.. it's an AoS ability.

Even for squirmlings I don't think line of sight is needed myself it says pick a unit and that is all that is relevant.

 

My reaction to that argument would that you are right. 

It's not an ability. It's a missile weapon. It's listed under her profile as a missile weapon.

[Lanoss]

Subterfuge says you roll a dice at the START of the First Battle Round. 

Therefore, who takes the First Battle Round must be decided first. So, even if a Dreadwood player doesn’t get to decide who gets first turn, he/she can still control how their stratagems will affect the first turn 

[Aezeal]

1 hour ago, Lhw said:

It's not an ability. It's a missile weapon. It's listed under her profile as a missile weapon.

It's a missle weapon with a shooting attack... that activates as an ability which has that wording.

[LennyB]

@Aezeal that is how I interpret it as well, but wasn't sure.  Glad (well maybe that's a bad word, rather it be clear) to see I'm not the only one confused by this.

 

[Yoshiya]

Based on the wording of the Core Rules I'd almost say that the current correct way to play is that Drycha can only shoot if she has line of sight to one unit in range (in order to be able to use a missile attack). Then once the attack starts she activates the ability which simply states all units in range so she would hit all of them.

So she would need to see one unit but can hit all which is just a weird way of doing things and why GW really needs to realise that you can't make a new edition and hope for all warscrolls to just keep making sense.

[Isotop]

20 hours ago, Lanoss said:

Subterfuge says you roll a dice at the START of the First Battle Round. 

Therefore, who takes the First Battle Round must be decided first. So, even if a Dreadwood player doesn’t get to decide who gets first turn, he/she can still control how their stratagems will affect the first turn 

This is not correct. A player can not "take the first battle round", a player can only take the first turn of the (first) battle round.

The Core Rules state:

"At the start of each battle round, the players must roll off, and the winner decides who takes the first turn [...] if it is the first battle round, the player that finished setting up their army first chooses who has the first turn."

(https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Rulesheets/ENG_AoSSW_Rules_booklet_web.pdf)

Subterfuge states:

"Roll a dice at the start of the first battle round [...]"

(Sylvaneth Battletome, p.126)

 

So, it seems, both effects (deciding who goes first and possible Subterfuge moves/redeployment) happen at the same time. I think in this case players have to determine randomly  which effect will happen first. There is a ruling in the Core Rules stating that you roll-off for simultaneous "pre-battle abilities" (and the winner decides what happens first). But this ruling has no influence on the Subterfuge-topic, since it is not a pre-battle ability. 

 

@Cblackaus hope I could help

Edited October 2, 2018 by Isotop

[Ebrick]

I was playing dread wood and doing well, but I think gnarlroot with all the spells is way more powerfull and balanced. Let me know what you guys think.

Alarielle, throne of vines,  600 points I can summon kurnoth hunters with the right weapon choice for the match, or 20 dryads. Worth every point.

Tree lord ancient, regrowth, with gnarled warrior and oaken armor. 

Branchwraith 1, ranu lamentiri, verdent blessing

Branchwraith 2, throne of vines

Branchwych, throne of vines, crown on a 5+ to get command point back,

Knight Incantor, with everblaze comet, i have found he is totally worth the points. And autodispel comes in very handy.

5 spit-revants

5 tree-revants

20 dryads

Souls snare shackles, quicksilver swords, everblaze comet

House hold and gnarlroot,

An even 2000pts, and 1 drop

I'm either summoning dryads with +1 cast or +D3 cast so very reliable. 

[Lanoss]

Yes. Sorry @Isotop I mistyped. I meant to imply  First Turn Of First Battle Round. Which, since Dreadwood is a One drop we can choose who goes first. 

So I believe the order would go

- Deploy. Dreadwood One drop. Opponent more than one drop. Dreadwood player finishes deploying  first

- Dreadwood player chooses to go first. 

- Rolls D3 stratagems 

OR

- Deploy. Opponent drops One drop first. Dreadwood drops. Opponent finishes deploying first  

- Opponent chooses to go first

- Dreadwood rolls D3 stratagems 

 

Hope that clears up the order of things 

[Isotop]

3 minutes ago, Lanoss said:

Yes. Sorry @Isotop I mistyped. I meant to imply  First Turn Of First Battle Round. Which, since Dreadwood is a One drop we can choose who goes first. 

So I believe the order would go

- Deploy. Dreadwood One drop. Opponent more than one drop. Dreadwood player finishes deploying  first

- Dreadwood player chooses to go first. 

- Rolls D3 stratagems 

OR

- Deploy. Opponent drops One drop first. Dreadwood drops. Opponent finishes deploying first  

- Opponent chooses to go first

- Dreadwood rolls D3 stratagems 

 

Hope that clears up the order of things 

The Problem is: how do we determine what happens first? (Opponent) choosing who takes first turn or Dreadwood Subterfuge abilities? I would say flip a coin, but as far as I know there is no set method from GW's side.

[Milo]

6 hours ago, Ebrick said:

I was playing dread wood and doing well, but I think gnarlroot with all the spells is way more powerfull and balanced. Let me know what you guys think.

Alarielle, throne of vines,  600 points I can summon kurnoth hunters with the right weapon choice for the match, or 20 dryads. Worth every point.

Tree lord ancient, regrowth, with gnarled warrior and oaken armor. 

Branchwraith 1, ranu lamentiri, verdent blessing

Branchwraith 2, throne of vines

Branchwych, throne of vines, crown on a 5+ to get command point back,

Knight Incantor, with everblaze comet, i have found he is totally worth the points. And autodispel comes in very handy.

5 spit-revants

5 tree-revants

20 dryads

Souls snare shackles, quicksilver swords, everblaze comet

House hold and gnarlroot,

An even 2000pts, and 1 drop

I'm either summoning dryads with +1 cast or +D3 cast so very reliable. 

Hello, 

i never use a knight incantor in my Sylvaneth list, i’m curious, how you play it? And you use the comet the first turn?

[Milo]

Hello everybody,

i have a question, in a match against Nurgle with this list:

Treelord Ancient

Branchwraith

Branchwhich

1x5 Tree Revenants

1x20 Dryads

1x20 Dryads

1x3 Kurnoth with Schytes 

Houshold+Gnarloot

is better take in Alarielle (Who summon other 3 Kurnoths) or Durthu and 3 Kurnoth?

Thank you!!

[Ebrick]

29 minutes ago, Milo said:

Hello, 

i never use a knight incantor in my Sylvaneth list, i’m curious, how you play it? And you use the comet the first turn?

I use it every turn and use one of the 12 spell slots to unbind it.

[Charlo]

Very quick question, do the Sylvaneth in the the "Alliance of Wood and Sea" Idoneth Warscroll Battalion use up the "allies" points (usually about 400) or not? 

My gut feeling is not as the Faction at the top is listed as Idoneth Deepkin.

[Ojay180]

On 10/3/2018 at 9:04 PM, Charlo said:

Very quick question, do the Sylvaneth in the the "Alliance of Wood and Sea" Idoneth Warscroll Battalion use up the "allies" points (usually about 400) or not? 

My gut feeling is not as the Faction at the top is listed as Idoneth Deepkin.

Any factions units used in another factions battalion (as you’ve described) do not use up the allies allowance so you would still have 400 pts of allies available.