AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Popisdead]

On 9/2/2021 at 5:17 AM, Landohammer said:

So I would obviously avoid targeting anything with a save buff, but the issue is that my opponent will be popping All out Defense as soon as I target them. So even a basic 4+ unit will jump to a 3+ and still save half of the bows Rend 1 attacks.

Yeah but I don't target stuff with a 4+ save with Bow Hunters that I'm expecting to see a 3+ all out defence on.  Alarielle will crack those after i sever the head so to speak.  if there are a couple mages with 1-2 wounds left after spell portal teleports something then I can split fire to clean up.  

[Craze]

Is it consensus that T-Revs are the only/most viable Battleline we have?

[Aezeal]

11 hours ago, Craze said:

Is it consensus that T-Revs are the only/most viable Battleline we have?

Well sort of but not because they are really better.. more because they are cheap IMHO.

Dryads do well what they do for their points.. but you really need 20 of them so if you want to max out non battleline units (say hunters, drycha, TLA, Durthu and Alarielle) you don't want to go there. Since a small unit of any battleline won't really kill anything then it means that even though their damage is even more abysmal than the damage of the dryads and spites you still go there since it's a non factor really and just their teleporting remains as only relevant ability (vs nothing relevant for the other choices).

[Kiekeboe]

19 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Heartwood has seen some success in competitive events, and I’m still pretty convinced Dreadwood is a viable choice. Although I haven’t tested it, Oakenbrow + Alarielle seems to have a lot going for it as well. 

Oakenbrow+Alarielle? Is there something I'm not seeing? Artefact/Trait are absolutely worthless, Command ability is very situational and the passive -2 on wounds table is only useful when you're running multiple treelord variants? And still, it's not nearly as impactful as Winterleaf's or Gnarlroot's passive abilities. 

Still intrigued to hear what your plan would be here, I'm all for experimenting with the non-Winterleaf/Gnarlroot obvious choices. I still think Ironbark with a Runesmiter and 10 Auric Hearthguard has merit. 

[Reinholt]

12 hours ago, Craze said:

Is it consensus that T-Revs are the only/most viable Battleline we have?

I would say both yes and no. They are chaff, but can teleport and make some long bomb charges people don't expect. So cheap, expendable, used for holding positions and being really annoying. Thus, definitely have value.

 

Dryads, if you can get to 20, have value. Dryads can also come via summoning so I want to give a shout out to armies that use that as a mechanic as there have been at least a few. Late game dryad body pile on can be a thing.

 

Spite revenants I rarely see, except as a 1x when I played against a list that needed the extra handful of points and they were used for holding backline objectives. Has anyone seen a list with them recently that worked?

[Tizianolol]

Guys what about gnarloot? I think its still our best choice!

[Landohammer]

On 9/5/2021 at 11:43 AM, Reinholt said:

I want to echo this as someone who has played against it twice now: Warsong Revenant is the first caster in the Sylvaneth book that can make good use of many of the artifacts (which are boss) as a 2x cast wizard. Likewise, Gnarlroot with rerolls and what it does for the overall army is kind of bonkers in 3e given how they changed the prevalence of those abilities. I think it's an uncontroversial statement at this point to say Gnarlroot is a real problem.

Heroic recovery on Durthu is also gross as you keep him at the magic 6 damage tier longer.

Have you played vs Lumineth or Tzeentch yet? Because I assure you Gnarlroot is not anywhere near problematic in terms of power , especially given the wyldwood nerfs.

Both of those factions have reliable and consistent auto-denies and potential automatic endless spell dispels. And when they don't have auto-denies available, they usually have very strong natural unbinds. Lumineth even have spell shrugs.

SOB and Archaon lists are also resilient vs the Warsong, since the output isn't enough to threaten a Mega and Archaon can shrug half the mortals.

So yes, Gnarlroot might be a strong build vs other C and D tier lists. But in any kind of competitive meta its actually at a severe handicap since the Warsong probably won't do anything meaningful after turn 1. 

[Landohammer]

On 9/4/2021 at 12:24 PM, Reinholt said:

Everything about your first block makes me angry as a Stormcast player, given they are the army with huge variety where most of it should be on the shelf.

Ahem! With that said, I don't see the bow hunters problem as critical because, as raised, it's still a pretty slim army overall. Yes, building a unit of 6 is a commitment, but not the same commitment as painting 120 zombies.

Yea SC are in a rough place, but I'm hoping the new codex straightens that out. Its pretty difficult to sell SC armies on the second hand market right now. They just sit forever. 

I look at Bow Hunters and see 38pts per shot hitting on 4+ and I just immediately balk. How can such an expensive unit have such a poor shooting statline. I would rather just have 2 celestar ballistas. 

 

[Mirage8112]

23 hours ago, Kiekeboe said:

Oakenbrow+Alarielle? Is there something I'm not seeing? Artefact/Trait are absolutely worthless, Command ability is very situational and the passive -2 on wounds table is only useful when you're running multiple treelord variants? 

The command ability lends itself well to big blocks of dryads, which are already a pretty resilient unit. For 1 CP, and the right hunter placement, you can easily make your entire army immune to Battleshock.

Having 3-4 Treelord variants also means 3-4 stomps. Running the Treelord variants in pairs means a nearly 75% chance you’ll be striking first in combats not to mention they’ll likely be surrounded by dryads. Notice also you have a lot more shooting (all Treelord variants and Alarielle) nearly board-wide passive healing plenty of active healing big blocks of resilient troops who don’t worry about battleshock, that are easily to replenish with 1 cp and the Rally! CA.

 

On 9/6/2021 at 10:31 AM, Kiekeboe said:

And still, it's not nearly as impactful as Winterleaf's or Gnarlroot's passive abilities. 

Winterleaf is fun because it takes a lot of models off the table, but its still a CC-oriented playstyle and there certainly matchups that do it as well or better. Gnarlroot is fun because who doesn’t like shooting a bunch of spells? But as @Landohammerpointed out if you run up against a magic-heavy army like lumineth or DoT, you just won’t be able to keep up if the only plan you have is magic. 
 

On 9/6/2021 at 10:31 AM, Kiekeboe said:

Still intrigued to hear what your plan would be here, I'm all for experimenting with the non-Winterleaf/Gnarlroot obvious choices. 

Games aren’t just won on scenario objective alone anymore. I think Oakenbrow has a really good chance to maximize points from battle tactics and grand strategies since extra points are rewarded for using monsters to complete battle tactics. Also, an oakenbrow list stands a very good chance of accomplishing a few grand strategies and denying your opponent some easy to score ones. This edition isn’t just about how much how many model you take off the table, its also about how you take them off the table and how you gum up your opponents plans to do the same. Scoring battle tactics with monsters give double VP’s, and having monsters that continually heal means it will thought for your opponent to remove them. 

Most of the Treelord variants will be extra survivable in oakenbrow. For example, if you give durthu the artifact, and make him the general, he’ll easily have a 2+ save with a 6+ ward, he can take 4 wounds before bracketing, and can heal on average 6 wounds in the hero phase ( If you take gladewyrm; which you should) without needing to worry about casting regrowth. If you need it, regrowth will give you 3-4 extra wounds on top of that. That means you can feasible lose 10 wounds off a durthu, have him heal 6 in the hero phase and still have him swing at full strength next turn. 

Being able to do that to just about any monster on the field (with the exception of vanilla treelords who can *only* heal 4 wounds without regrowth) means its going be very difficult for you opponent to score Sever the Head or Vendetta from grand strategies. Also Slay the warlord, Bring it down!, and Monstrous takeover from battle tactics will be a tough get. And since the CA favors big blocks of dryads who are easily 4+ save ignoring rend -2, immune to battleshock and fighting in 2 ranks, Battle tactics like Broken ranks, Conquer, Aggressive expansion will be very difficult your opponent to score as well. 

 

On 9/6/2021 at 10:31 AM, Kiekeboe said:

I still think Ironbark with a Runesmiter and 10 Auric Hearthguard has merit. 

I do too actually. I think we have more able builds then we have before, but a lot of players are still playing variations on their 2.0 lists. I think Oakenbrow leans into the 3.0 mechanics better than the other glades, although it will require a difficult approach to play-style. Also give the previous nerf to WW, have the workhorse of your army (TL variants) able to freely move between woods without counting toward the teleport cap is a big plus. 
 

[Mirage8112]

3 hours ago, Landohammer said:

I look at Bow Hunters and see 38pts per shot hitting on 4+ and I just immediately balk. How can such an expensive unit have such a poor shooting statline. I would rather just have 2 celestar ballistas. 

I dunno. For lists that primarily use hunters as CA nodes, or want a unit to hang back and support rather than being a front-line fighter the ability to throw a bunch of shots out over 30” rather than just standing there in the woods waiting to do something (like the poor branchwraith) is a nice bonus. Plus they are easy to heal, super mobile, tough to kill and can hide in a forest just broadcasting CA and softening up targets for front-line fighters. 

Also balistas put out more damage, but are pretty much the definition of a glass cannon. They have a worse save, trash movement, less wounds, can’t be healed and no escape mechanism. Catch them: they’re dead. 

I think you really have to look at ALL the stats as well as how the unit functions with army support. Bow hunters have their place at the table, but they certainly don’t work in every list.  

[States]

On 9/5/2021 at 4:36 PM, Rhetoric said:

Got in a game yesterday with my Gnarlroot list.  I have to say, I didn’t lose Durthu or my TLA.  Heroic Recovery on top of Regrowth plus the Gnarlroot Command Trait on the Warsong Rev is so clutch to the big heroes in the game.  Also I got an Unleash Swarm if Spites off that did 22 MW.  My opponent wasn’t happy but it was a clutch moment.  I tried out Arcane Tome on Durthu for the RR1’s to hit, but Amulet of Destiny might be better for next time.  Before 3.0 I was always a stand for Gnarlroot, but the Warsong Rev was the missing piece of the puzzle.  Great model with a great scroll.  
 

List was: 

 

Warsong Rev with Chalice/Nurtured

Durthu with Arcane Tome

TLA

Branchwraith

6 KH with Scythes

3 KH with Scythes 

3 x 5 Units Id Tree Revs

Spellportal

Spiteswarm Hive

 

What spells and battalions did you take?

[Ragest]

@Mirage8112I like your ideas. Gonna experiment with no warsong and alarielle, drycha and treelords.

[martinwolf]

15 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

The command ability lends itself well to big blocks of dryads, which are already a pretty resilient unit. For 1 CP, and the right hunter placement, you can easily make your entire army immune to Battleshock.

Having 3-4 Treelord variants also means 3-4 stomps. Running the Treelord variants in pairs means a nearly 75% chance you’ll be striking first in combats not to mention they’ll likely be surrounded by dryads. Notice also you have a lot more shooting (all Treelord variants and Alarielle) nearly board-wide passive healing plenty of active healing big blocks of resilient troops who don’t worry about battleshock, that are easily to replenish with 1 cp and the Rally! CA.

 

Winterleaf is fun because it takes a lot of models off the table, but its still a CC-oriented playstyle and there certainly matchups that do it as well or better. Gnarlroot is fun because who doesn’t like shooting a bunch of spells? But as @Landohammerpointed out if you run up against a magic-heavy army like lumineth or DoT, you just won’t be able to keep up if the only plan you have is magic. 
 

Games aren’t just won on scenario objective alone anymore. I think Oakenbrow has a really good chance to maximize points from battle tactics and grand strategies since extra points are rewarded for using monsters to complete battle tactics. Also, an oakenbrow list stands a very good chance of accomplishing a few grand strategies and denying your opponent some easy to score ones. This edition isn’t just about how much how many model you take off the table, its also about how you take them off the table and how you gum up your opponents plans to do the same. Scoring battle tactics with monsters give double VP’s, and having monsters that continually heal means it will thought for your opponent to remove them. 

Most of the Treelord variants will be extra survivable in oakenbrow. For example, if you give durthu the artifact, and make him the general, he’ll easily have a 2+ save with a 6+ ward, he can take 4 wounds before bracketing, and can heal on average 6 wounds in the hero phase ( If you take gladewyrm; which you should) without needing to worry about casting regrowth. If you need it, regrowth will give you 3-4 extra wounds on top of that. That means you can feasible lose 10 wounds off a durthu, have him heal 6 in the hero phase and still have him swing at full strength next turn. 

Being able to do that to just about any monster on the field (with the exception of vanilla treelords who can *only* heal 4 wounds without regrowth) means its going be very difficult for you opponent to score Sever the Head or Vendetta from grand strategies. Also Slay the warlord, Bring it down!, and Monstrous takeover from battle tactics will be a tough get. And since the CA favors big blocks of dryads who are easily 4+ save ignoring rend -2, immune to battleshock and fighting in 2 ranks, Battle tactics like Broken ranks, Conquer, Aggressive expansion will be very difficult your opponent to score as well. 

 

I do too actually. I think we have more able builds then we have before, but a lot of players are still playing variations on their 2.0 lists. I think Oakenbrow leans into the 3.0 mechanics better than the other glades, although it will require a difficult approach to play-style. Also give the previous nerf to WW, have the workhorse of your army (TL variants) able to freely move between woods without counting toward the teleport cap is a big plus. 
 

I like all your thoughts. I've played Oakenbrow a couple times in 2nd ed but didn't have much success. But also didn't have quite enough of the right models. I think you are right, the subfaction has play in 3rd. I just always wished Treelords would become battleline in Oakenbrow so you can field more of them while still havin a TLA and Durthu in the list. I feel like this would definitely be the case if the battletome would come out today. Look at all those "battleline if" units in the newer tomes. Imagine an army full of big trees with just a couple drayds running around them. Would be really cool.

[martinwolf]

On the note of "not Gnarlroot", this is the list I've been playing recently and it went pretty good all things considering. 

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Harvestboon
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs:

LEADERS
Drycha Hamadreth (330)
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
Spirit of Durthu (340)
- General
- Command Trait: Seek New Fruit
- Artefact: The Silent Sickle
Treelord Ancient (295)
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
Warsong Revenant (275)**
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon

UNITS
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)**
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)**
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)**
3 x Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Greatswords (225)*
3 x Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Greatswords (225)*

ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS
Umbral Spellportal (70)

CORE BATTALIONS
*Hunters of the Heartlands
**Vanguard

Durthu is still a bit swingy, but he did good work. I haven't played since the most recent AWW changes, tho. With the pooping trees all over the board it was really easy to get Durthu into the right position and always wholly within 8 of a AWW.

[Erosharcos]

Are can/do we place an Awakened Wyldwood? I am new to Sylvaneth and I've been asking around and trying to understand it, but with the frequent warscroll changes I am having a hard time discerning how set up of the Wyldwoods is intended, and how we can legally place the woods. 

Rules state, 

Quote

SET-UP: ... This faction terrain feature consists of 1-3 scenery pieces. If an Awakened Wyldwood has more than 1 scenery piece, each piece must be set up touching all of the other pieces to form a circle with an area of open ground inside the circle. The area of open ground inside the circle is considered to be part of the Awakened Wyldwood terrain feature.

Is a "scenery piece" an individual tree from the new GW Wyldwood Kit, or is the "1-3 scenery pieces" part of the set up rules referring to the old Citadel Wood model? 

Regarding the rules, so I can play it correctly and know how many Wyldwood models to buy, can Awakened Wyldwoods be placed as individual, singular tree pieces, a pair of trees or all 3 tree pieces from the kit? Or do they absolutely NEED to be set up as all 3 tree pieces from the newest kit?

Simply put, can 1 Awakened wyldwood kit be used as multiple Sylvaneth Wyldwoods in play? What's been the norm for Wyldwood placement for our faction recently? 

[Erosharcos]

36 minutes ago, Erosharcos said:

Are can/do we place an Awakened Wyldwood? I am new to Sylvaneth and I've been asking around and trying to understand it, but with the frequent warscroll changes I am having a hard time discerning how set up of the Wyldwoods is intended, and how we can legally place the woods. 

Rules state, 

Is a "scenery piece" an individual tree from the new GW Wyldwood Kit, or is the "1-3 scenery pieces" part of the set up rules referring to the old Citadel Wood model? 

Regarding the rules, so I can play it correctly and know how many Wyldwood models to buy, can Awakened Wyldwoods be placed as individual, singular tree pieces, a pair of trees or all 3 tree pieces from the kit? Or do they absolutely NEED to be set up as all 3 tree pieces from the newest kit?

Simply put, can 1 Awakened wyldwood kit be used as multiple Sylvaneth Wyldwoods in play? What's been the norm for Wyldwood placement for our faction recently? 

For a visual, I uploaded a photo of some possible interpretations of Wyldwood Placement rules. I want to be as honest and fair as possible during gameplay. By my interpretation of the rules, set up methods per the photo 1 through 3 would be RAW, either being 3 trees, 2 trees or 1 tree. 4-6 COULD be arguable based on the rules wording.... but don't seem to be the rules as intended. Thoughts? 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Erosharcos
typos

[Walkirriox]

12 hours ago, Erosharcos said:

For a visual, I uploaded a photo of some possible interpretations of Wyldwood Placement rules. I want to be as honest and fair as possible during gameplay. By my interpretation of the rules, set up methods per the photo 1 through 3 would be RAW, either being 3 trees, 2 trees or 1 tree. 4-6 COULD be arguable based on the rules wording.... but don't seem to be the rules as intended. Thoughts?

1-2-3 are legal, 4-5-6 are not.

[Abstract_duck]

9 hours ago, Walkirriox said:

1-2-3 are legal, 4-5-6 are not.

The scroll doesn't state 'tips must touch' anymore. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't use 4-6.. But I'd say it depends on your definition of a circle. We can at least assume that a perfect circle is not implied, since even 3 is not a perfect circle. Especially 6 is an interpretation of a circle. In that sense, I'd say an argument can be made. Especially if you take in consideration that the 'tips must touch' have been there, but also have been removed. That said, I'd follow RAI, which seems quite clear.

[Popisdead]

On 9/5/2021 at 10:24 PM, Craze said:

Is it consensus that T-Revs are the only/most viable Battleline we have?

2-3 units.  I took a single unit of 10 dryads and they were fine last match.

On 9/6/2021 at 10:17 AM, Aezeal said:

Well sort of but not because they are really better.. more because they are cheap IMHO.

This.  

[Aezeal]

On 9/8/2021 at 8:00 PM, Erosharcos said:

For a visual, I uploaded a photo of some possible interpretations of Wyldwood Placement rules. I want to be as honest and fair as possible during gameplay. By my interpretation of the rules, set up methods per the photo 1 through 3 would be RAW, either being 3 trees, 2 trees or 1 tree. 4-6 COULD be arguable based on the rules wording.... but don't seem to be the rules as intended. Thoughts? 

I'd go for 1-3 or small variations on them (possibly enlongating the circle of 3 a bit?). I'd not go for 4-6.

[Tizianolol]

Speaking about the meta i dont think treelord can be a good unit unfortunately.  Its ok he is a monster but he got -1 rend and its too hard put MW out from his 1 attack ( u need 6 to hit). I can understand lumineth and Tz can be an hard match up for sylvaneth but meta right now is full of hight save lists. New STC book is out soon and its more elite then before, i still think Gnarlroot can be our best option!

Edited September 13, 2021 by Tizianolol

[Arathorn185]

so working on CoS Living City list. And looking at new app. Do Sylaventh wizards innately have the abilitt to summon wyldwoods?

[Popisdead]

1 hour ago, Arathorn185 said:

so working on CoS Living City list. And looking at new app. Do Sylaventh wizards innately have the abilitt to summon wyldwoods?

Pretty sure the consensus is they do not outside Sylvaneth Allegiance.  

EDIT: there is always a split.  haha forgot people contest this issue. shrugs.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Popisdead

[Arathorn185]

Well just the AoS App if you click a sylvaneth warscroll lists the spell as one they can access/use @Popisdead And was surprised sense Azyr, the Warscroll on the Site and so on did NOT have said spell on their warscroll. So Seeing it on the new app warscroll confused me greatly 

[AdamR]

Is there a reason I'm not seeing why Drycha can't take flaming weapon as her spell? 

Universal spell lore isn't an option on warscroll builder or the new app, but I'm struggling to see the reason why?