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AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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2 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

I’ve been looking at the math regarding command abilities on T-revs and Hunters, particularly how “All-out-attack” competes with the Arch-Revenant “extra attack” CA, since they are both used in the same phase. 

I want to add that Soulblight Gravelords lost 4 sources of "+1 attack" and recieved 2 conditionals ones (If this unit has charged...).

Maybe it's nothing, but I expect to see rerolls going the way of the Dodo, and +1 attack being tunned down.

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On 6/23/2021 at 10:10 AM, Havelocke said:

It's worth noting that these playtesters were working without an FAQ's, just the same as we are.

They're awesome! I've got a good feeling that endless spells are gonna be used a lot in 3e.

The spiteswarm hive is still amazing, and I really want to try out the Gladewyrm with the new predatory rules. On top of that, Soulsnare shackles look good, Chronomantic Cogs are always good, and Umbral Spellportal has potential for a Warsong bomb. Finally, the Skullroot and Horrorghast are strong considerations if you want to try to do a bravery debuff thing. Heck, with the changes to wyldwoods, the Skullroot might just be good on its own.

Hmm k i'm not aware of what playtesters get/dont' get.  Having seen Reese blow up arguing on camera, made me unsure but feel GW gets slowly better at engagement as we progress.  Thanks for the clarification on the thread.  I guess we are all waiting to exhale on this one 😉

 

I forgot you need a wizard per endless spell... But I do quite like the Warsong Revenant so maybe he can cast Spiteswarm Hive :)  A lot of utility in that warscroll.  The 3" reach was nice to discover.  What is the Warsong bomb going off?  I saw it quoted, is basically Throne, Spellportal then his native spell?  I have to read Spellportals it sounds like it has good use.  

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3 hours ago, Popisdead said:

Hmm k i'm not aware of what playtesters get/dont' get.  Having seen Reese blow up arguing on camera, made me unsure but feel GW gets slowly better at engagement as we progress.  Thanks for the clarification on the thread.  I guess we are all waiting to exhale on this one 😉

 

I forgot you need a wizard per endless spell... But I do quite like the Warsong Revenant so maybe he can cast Spiteswarm Hive :)  A lot of utility in that warscroll.  The 3" reach was nice to discover.  What is the Warsong bomb going off?  I saw it quoted, is basically Throne, Spellportal then his native spell?  I have to read Spellportals it sounds like it has good use.  

The only information I have is gleaned from his Twitter account, where he hypothesizes about what the upcoming FAQ's will say when discussing the Drycha issue. So just a bit of inference there.

Warsong bomb is more or less what you described, now that balewind is dead. The other big addition you can make is putting chalice of nectar on the Warsong for more damage.

Umbral Spell portal is also great for Alarielle lists, too, since it makes it easier for her to hit critical targets with metamorphosis.

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On 6/23/2021 at 9:27 AM, Popisdead said:

I think it's very good and why has no one mentioned soulsnare shackles yet?

So good. And even better for us.
 

Endless spells overall have gotten better with the changes to how our WW blocks line of sight. Now that our woods block LoS to anything less than 10 wounds means we can cast endless spells into out line of sight blocking woods without worrying about them being dispelled in the next turn (since LoS is required for dispelling an endless spell).

Big wizard monsters (Lord of Change, Kroak) are still a threat, but wizards who can fly won’t be able to dispel any longer (which is a lot of TZ). 

The thought of being able to put down an area buff/debuff without worrying about losing it next turn to flying support wizards makes stacking endless spell effects in the enemy turn fairly appealing. Wyldwoods with shackles hidden in them can be used pretty successfully to shut down approach to an objective for a turn even if there are only 5 t-revs on it. Can’t be shot at, can’t be charged, and can’t be dispelled without dedicating a large (or uber) caster to get rid of it.

That’s pretty huge for us, because it means we’ll have to leave less of our army behind to hold an objective, freeing up more resources for combined charges on enemy units. 

Edited by Mirage8112
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So after going to the rules I want to have something confirmed:

3 prayer/turn priests (2 regular and 1 ' endless prayer' ) are gone (yay).. but somehow the priests - which have generally the same pointcost and often better effects in their prayers - still get 1 regular and 1 endless spell while general mages still get 1 cast (either regular OR endless)?

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13 hours ago, Aezeal said:

So after going to the rules I want to have something confirmed:

3 prayer/turn priests (2 regular and 1 ' endless prayer' ) are gone (yay).. but somehow the priests - which have generally the same pointcost and often better effects in their prayers - still get 1 regular and 1 endless spell while general mages still get 1 cast (either regular OR endless)?

No, a priest can only cast one prayer they know. Invocations are just prayers a priest knows. 

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Something I've noticed in the wording of normal moves and retreats (8.1/2). You can't make a normal move with a unit if it is within 3" of an enemy - our Tree Revenants teleport works instead of a normal move. Retreating no longer makes a 'normal move'. Does this mean our Tree Revs are stuck in combat (besides a normal retreat)? Obviously FAQ might clarify this, but even so, I'm hoping it doesn't mean our teleport eventually turns into a retreat and we can't charge after teleporting...

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9 minutes ago, Domize said:

Something I've noticed in the wording of normal moves and retreats (8.1/2). You can't make a normal move with a unit if it is within 3" of an enemy - our Tree Revenants teleport works instead of a normal move. Retreating no longer makes a 'normal move'. Does this mean our Tree Revs are stuck in combat (besides a normal retreat)? Obviously FAQ might clarify this, but even so, I'm hoping it doesn't mean our teleport eventually turns into a retreat and we can't charge after teleporting...

Currently as worded, yes we cannot teleport out of combat anymore with any of our units.

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Just now, Pennydude said:

Currently as worded, yes we cannot teleport out of combat anymore with any of our units.

Is that generally accepted? Because it's instead of a normal move, it's not itself a (disallowed) normal move. The normal move (which is disallowed) is not done but something else (which is not specifically mentioned as not allowed) is done instead.

 

1 hour ago, Mokoshkana said:

No, a priest can only cast one prayer they know. Invocations are just prayers a priest knows. 

Ah reread and indeed don't see how I came to my previous conclusion.. finally some justice.

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Teleporting is a substitute for a normal move. If you can’t make a normal move (ex: being in combat), that’s not an option for you to make.

Now, I hope this gets FAQ’d to be written as a “instead of a normal move, run, or retreat” to fit current workings. We will be getting FAQs very soon.

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9 hours ago, Izotzuhure said:

Anybody considering running a generic Glade so the Warsong Revenant can get access to Glade Lore or Spell Singer? Or is Gnarlroot to good to ignore? 

Going Gladeless is a interesting choice if you want to maximize the Warsong mortal spam. I think the question here is how much the extra 6" for the Warsong spell really helps boost his damage. If you are using the Spellportal I can see it be worthwhile, as you reduce the risk exposing the Warsong. You end loosing some benefits for your other units though, as the reroll of 1s, 6 ward command ability and event the command ability Gnarlroot all help giving your army what our allegiance lacks.

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5 hours ago, Aezeal said:

Is that generally accepted? Because it's instead of a normal move, it's not itself a (disallowed) normal move. The normal move (which is disallowed) is not done but something else (which is not specifically mentioned as not allowed) is done instead.


@Havelocke And I discussed it a few pages back and agreed to disagree. 

But even in the wider community it is very much disputed. The two interpretations seem to stem from a disagreement over what “instead of” means.

One side thinks “instead of” involves a trade; a normal move FOR a teleport, and the other reads it as a choice between two things; a normal move OR a teleport. 

I’m not opposed to letting other Sylvaneth players decide that they are unable to teleport in their own games, but I definitely will be using it in mine. We’ve been doing it since 1.0 (and argued about it then), and have had the issue settled with one FAQ already. I can’t see GW reversing that mechanic over what amounts to a language change unless it’s a deliberate nerf. 

Even aside from the above there isn’t a conflict with the new rule set. The definition of “instead of” is “a substitute for or an alternative to”. If you go out to eat and order a steak and the restaurant doesn’t have steak, it’s ok! You can have salad “instead” of steak (i.e. “this instead of that”). If the restaurant isn’t even offering steak (ie you “can’t” have steak) you can still have salad “instead” of steak; you don’t have to go hungry and then get massacred by a bunch of mortek guard.

Ultimately it doesn’t really matter, as GW is updating all the battletomes an faq/errata to ensure they work with 3.0 (confirmed today on WC). As such we will likely have an answer of the single WW LoS blocking question, the Drycha with flaming attacks question, and the teleporting out of combat question.

I’m mostly interested in the first of the three. The others seem to be practically settled issues to me. 

Edited by Mirage8112
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1 hour ago, Pennydude said:

What’s the issue with Drycha and Flaming Weapon? That seems very cut and dry.

That’s an annoying one. Apparently the issue is that the flaming weapons spell falls under “enchantments”, and as worded in the 3.0 core book unique units cannot receive enchantments.

It’s also noted that as worded they can’t receive spells from their own faction spell list. It’s pretty obviously an oversight which they’ve already said they are intending to correct.

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7 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

That’s an annoying one. Apparently the issue is that the flaming weapons spell falls under “enchantments”, and as worded in the 3.0 core book unique units cannot receive enchantments.

It’s also noted that as worded they can’t receive spells from their own faction spell list. It’s pretty obviously an oversight which they’ve already said they are intending to correct.

WarCom article from yesterday acknowledged the issue and is fixing with FAQ.

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1 hour ago, Pennydude said:

WarCom article from yesterday acknowledged the issue and is fixing with FAQ.

Just to clarify further they stated the faqs will update the battletome spell lores to allow unique wizards to get a spell.  It is unknown if the faqs will allow them to take from the generic lore.

Edited by Emissary
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With the advent of Inspired presence being limited to once per round and incentives to run MSU, I believe its time to brainstorm some thematic scary tree lists. 

Drycha is a must have for multiple reasons but ironically Dreadwood is not. what im thinking of is forcing multiple battleshocks between drycha and bow hunters in shooting and using magic for bravery bombing. Horrorghast might make an appearance and Skullroot spell later on if I feel i can actually debuff bravery enough. It might be mostly magic, forcing Allarielle to make an appearance  but I also really want to mass Spit-revs to tag units.

Ill post a list later, just interested in any ideas folks have.

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Just had a very fun and successful game with new points a rules with this list! 

gnarlroot 

warlord and regiment battalions and keeping monsters alive grand strategy.

Alarielle (summoned 3 sword hunters)

TLA regrowth 

durthu

branchwych Regrowth

branch wraith with vespereal gem

2 units of 5 spites

1 unit of 5 tree rev

1 treelord vanilla

spite swarm hive endless spell

with combo of spite hive mystic shield and all out defense plus TLA CA had my TLA a 0+ save rerolling 1s he just wouldn’t and couldn’t die all game long then so many heals 3 D3 heals and 1D6 heal with regrowth wen from 2-3 health to full every turn. 
 

me and my friend had a dispute that we didn’t resolve though. I used my TLA CA in the hero phase and then I later that turned summoned in some hunters he said that bc they weren’t on the field when the CA was issued that the hunters couldn’t benefit from their ability what is your guys take on this?

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I have been thinking nonsense for the wanderers thing and maybe they are not allies because they come with sylvaneth on the 3.0 battletome.

 There are some rumours about new human kits and dwarfs United so that leaves aelfs a bit alone. When Malerion comes for sure all darkling, scourge and order serpentis could go with him and make an army like DoK with only 2 new kits and the God. That leaves wanderers and Phoenix temple out so wanderers come with sylvaneth and Phoenix maybe Lumineth 3rd wave? 

 Yes I know, it doesn't have so much sense. Too much changes to make for GW to just old kits... 

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just to refresh, heres the TLAs CA
Heed the Spirit-songYou can use this command ability in your hero phase. If you do so, pick 1 friendly model with this command ability. Until your next hero phase, you can re-roll save rolls of 1 for attacks that target friendly SYLVANETH units wholly within 12" of that model.

As read, this would be considered an "aura" and thus units in general can gain or lose this effect as they pass or fail the condition of being "wholly within". Just as units move away from the aura and lose the effect later in the turn. So too can units gain the effect if they move into or 'appear' (summoned) later in the turn or phase in this case.

The key thing to remember is that the effect does not have a target, nor does it refer to any time the effect happens. Where your friend would be correct is if the language stated that you check all available units to receive the ability upon using it and then get a delayed 'trigger'  that would happen when they make saves later.

This is all said with the knowledge that GW, while its gotten better with consistent rules writing, can give us real dum dum open ended rules. Hope that helps.

 

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1 hour ago, Ching Wing said:

with combo of spite hive mystic shield and all out defense plus TLA CA had my TLA a 0+ save rerolling 1s he just wouldn’t and couldn’t die all game long then so many heals 3 D3 heals and 1D6 heal with regrowth wen from 2-3 health to full every turn. 

The TLA command ability does the exact same thing as spiteswarm hive. They both allow saving throws of 1 to be rerolled. All out Defense adds 1 to saving throws, so the best you can do is a 2+ save with rerolls of 1 (which can only be rerolled once). Even if you were to somehow get to a +3 to saving throws, after any rend is subtracted you max out at a +1 to saving throws in the best case scenario. Unless I’m missing something, it looks like you misplayed some things. 
 

As for the issue with the Hunters, I’m guessing the issue resolved around their envoys of the ever queen ability? Rereading it now, I can see an argument against them providing the aura due to the wording. I’d suggest submitting that question for FAQ. 

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What do you think about this list?: 

 

SYLVANskies

  • Heartwood

 

Leaders 

Warsong Revenant

  • general
  • Horn of the consort
  • Spell: [lock in d), all of the above]

Branchwraith

  • Spiritsong stave 
  • Spell: throne of vines

Spirit of Durthu

 

Battleline

5 x tree revenants 

5 x tree revenants 

5 x tree revenants 

5 x tree revenants 

 

Other units

3 x kurnoth hunters with bows

3 x kurnoth hunters with bows

6 x Kurnoth hunters with bows 

 

Endless spells/Battalions

Spiteswarm Hive

Warlord battalion 

 

1970 (New points… I think)

 

 

General idea:

Early game - shoot stuff and set up trees, spiteswarm and dryad machine.

Mid game - send Durthu in as a targeted recking ball / distraction piece, keep shooting stuff, push out dryads to objectives

Late game - tick of your objectives and strategies with flexi revenants, snipers and whatever is left, oh and keep shooting stuff. 

 

Strengths (I think)

  • Good flexibility 
  • Good sniping potential 
  • Looking decent for a triumph
  • Plays in all phases (fun)
  • Control play style (also fun)

 

Cautions

  • Durthu isn’t loaded with ward and provides main combat power so time the launch. 
  • Want those dryads to slow pace of game so keep out of range of auto unbinds where possible. 
  • Strong Alpha strikes might mess you up bad so if versing, deploy max speed bumps (go revenants). 

Any feedback/ideas appreciated.

 

ps: will there be an AOS 3 chat feed starting?

 

Legends. 

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49 minutes ago, UNIBROWshapist said:

What do you think about this list?: 

 

SYLVANskies

  • Heartwood

 

Leaders 

Warsong Revenant

  • general
  • Horn of the consort
  • Spell: [lock in d), all of the above]

Branchwraith

  • Spiritsong stave 
  • Spell: throne of vines

Spirit of Durthu

 

Battleline

5 x tree revenants 

5 x tree revenants 

5 x tree revenants 

5 x tree revenants 

 

Other units

3 x kurnoth hunters with bows

3 x kurnoth hunters with bows

6 x Kurnoth hunters with bows 

 

Endless spells/Battalions

Spiteswarm Hive

Warlord battalion 

 

1970 (New points… I think)

 

 

General idea:

Early game - shoot stuff and set up trees, spiteswarm and dryad machine.

Mid game - send Durthu in as a targeted recking ball / distraction piece, keep shooting stuff, push out dryads to objectives

Late game - tick of your objectives and strategies with flexi revenants, snipers and whatever is left, oh and keep shooting stuff. 

 

Strengths (I think)

  • Good flexibility 
  • Good sniping potential 
  • Looking decent for a triumph
  • Plays in all phases (fun)
  • Control play style (also fun)

 

Cautions

  • Durthu isn’t loaded with ward and provides main combat power so time the launch. 
  • Want those dryads to slow pace of game so keep out of range of auto unbinds where possible. 
  • Strong Alpha strikes might mess you up bad so if versing, deploy max speed bumps (go revenants). 

Any feedback/ideas appreciated.

 

ps: will there be an AOS 3 chat feed starting?

 

Legends. 

The concept is good, but it seens really fragile. Outside of Durthu nothing in your list wants to get in combat and you rely on the wraith getting her spell of to get some screens. With the smaller board and without something that can protect your units, mostly enemies will be able to get near them pretty quick. I would suggest two changes: change one unit of 3 bows to swords and change 2 of the Tree-revs to 20 dryads (assuming your points are correct you have the exactly amount left to do this). You keep a strong shooting presence this way and will have both a unit screen your fragile units and a unit that your opponent will think twice before engaging in combat.

Edited by Arzalyn
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