AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Trevelyan]

24 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

But wait there is more. Under the new coherency rules, a unit of 10 is unlikely to get all of their attacks. If you honeycomb, you can probably stretch 6 guys into combat for a whopping 18-19 attacks. (you can't break coherency to pile in to my knowledge)

 

That cuts both ways. Spites might be seen in smaller units now, but the same goes for many of their targets. That 5 man Spite unit is likely facing 5-10 man units and, if it gets the charge, has a much better chance of surviving. All the reasons Tree Revenants have become relatively more killy in 3E apply to small units of Spites too.

To that you can add the possibility of just using them differently. The old 20 Spite blob was a threat in its own right. The 5 Spite unit might function better as a supporting harassment unit alongside other units. If your opponent is sending something against your Dryad line, or you are sending a small unit of sword Hunters into an enemy unit, then back the Dryads or Hunters up with a unit of Spites to add damage output and swing the balance on bravery tests. 

[Mirage8112]

14 minutes ago, Havelocke said:

You get the eternal optimist merit badge for sure, Mirage.

More like "Eternal Contrarian" badge.

Don't get me wrong, there are definitely things in the changes that came off worse if you intend to use them in the old way. But that's doesn't mean they're universally terrible; it just means they are terrible at their old job. 

 

16 minutes ago, Havelocke said:

I'm curious to see exactly how his aura works with the new command ability rules. Do all units within 12" receive a command, for example, and does it work with Envoys of the Everqueen or not? (I don't think it's a given.

 

3 minutes ago, Pennydude said:

The auras stack and are usable with the Kurnoths being a beacon. There’s no unit receiving the CA but everything in range is affected.

This has also been confirmed by the playtesters. CA have to be given to a unit, if it's an aura, only the unit who received the command in that phase can't receive another. 
 

 

14 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

So I don't have a problem with the Spite statline or points. Its actually fine. Its the fact that taking a unit of 10 burns a finite resource and a unit of 5 isn't really a functional threat outside of a screen or speedbump. The really frustrating part is that the decision was clearly based on how they are sold, rather than their functionality. For example, Thralls are a very similar unit in terms of role, cost and model yet they are taken in base units of 10. 

Thralls operate in a different army and are a more much more akin to dryads.  It's not the individual stat line or points cost of the model that is relevant: it's what it can do when paired with other units from the army.

 

18 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

But wait there is more. Under the new coherency rules, a unit of 10 is unlikely to get all of their attacks. If you honeycomb, you can probably stretch 6 guys into combat for a whopping 18-19 attacks. (you can't break coherency to pile in to my knowledge)

 

 
I don't see this being problem at all. Staggered 2 rows of 5 should get all their attacks in. Maybe if they are fighting a single character model on a 25mm base they'll struggle, but against say... 10 thralls? no problem. 

And double reenforcing spites is relatively cost-effective way to make them more survivable, I'd be inclined to take then in 2 groups of 10, but 1 group of 15 flanked by Treelords and dryads would work just fine. Especially with Drycha standing in the middle of that.

Can they get shot off the table? yep. Is anybody stupid enough to shoot at a group of spites and not Drycha whose standing behind them? unlikely. 

 

19 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

But hey, their leadership debuff is solid right? But only if they survive to the battleshock phase to provide it. Under the new rules, the active player takes all of their tests first, So even if you get lucky, and don't get wiped out on return attacks, (which is rare in my tourney experience with spites, they ALWAYS get wiped), then you have to test on bravery 6 or burn a CP to save like 3 guys. 

 

Their leadership debuff isn't the only thing that makes that combo work. The Warsong has the bigger debuff of -2 and it's an aura. The command trait forces RR of battleshock tests. The spites are really just there to do a bunch of damage. Play with Sylvaneth is about redundancy of buffs and uneven combats. Put 5 of our units against 2 of theirs, destroy them, and then teleport across the board and do it again. In fact that's bread and butter dreadwood play...

I also have to say I'm noticing a theme: Sounds like everything you put in combat dies. T-revs, Dryads, Alarielle, spites doesn't matter. Unless it's Hunters it doesn't survive. When you play does anything other than hunters survive? I mean, is it really that  hard to screen? 

We have so much available to counterplay now. There are a lot of answers to problem like spite survivability. We can rally, verdurous harmony, lifeswarm. We have treelords who are awesome this edition who can stomp and disrupt the activation   wars. Our screens are cheap and effective, and its relatively easy to block line of sight now (maybe even easier if the woods get FAQ'd to include the half circle of the base).  

I mean everything has a counter, nothing is perfect. It goes both ways. 

 

40 minutes ago, Havelocke said:

Tragically, flaming weapons has to target one of the caster's melee weapons. That would have been an insane combo, otherwise.

 
******. That text is too small lol. 


 
 

[Havelocke]

26 minutes ago, Pennydude said:

@Havelocke The auras stack and are usable with the Kurnoths being a beacon. There’s no unit receiving the CA but everything in range is affected.

Alright. I'll try to explain why I think this might not be the case. As I see it, it's not possible for a command ability to work this way in the new core rules. Take a look at what 6.1 states:

To use a command ability, you must spend 1 command point, pick 1 friendly model to issue the command, and pick 1 friendly unit to receive the command.

So in order for the aura to continue to function as intended, either an exception needs to be written in that lets more than one unit receive the command, or it needs to be clarified that the command is being issued to the Ancient, and the resulting aura is itself the benefit of the command ability.

1 minute ago, Mirage8112 said:

This has also been confirmed by the playtesters. CA have to be given to a unit, if it's an aura, only the unit who received the command in that phase can't receive another. 

This, then, raises the question about how Envoys of the Everqueen interacts with the new Command Ability system. Envoys states that:

If a friendly Sylvaneth Hero uses a command ability, friendly Sylvaneth units wholly within 12" are treated as being in range of that command ability.

This is an ambiguous rule, because it is no longer clear what the "range" of a command ability is. We have the range between the issuing unit and the receiving unit, and we also have the area of effect range that exists after a command ability has been issued. These are no longer the same game effect, and so I don't think that the single phrase 'in range' can apply to both. I fully expect this to get clarified in an FAQ, but I think it's extremely ambiguous at the moment according to the exact wording of the rules.

[Havelocke]

32 minutes ago, Trevelyan said:

The 5 Spite unit might function better as a supporting harassment unit alongside other units.

I think there's some merit to this idea. If you charge an enemy with a unit of Kurnoths and a small unit of Spites, then attack first with the Kurnoths, you give your opponent a poor choice for their allocating their attacks.

If they put their attacks on the Kurnoths, they're allowing the spites to attack at full strength, and allowing their debuff to survive. If they attack the spites, that's protecting the Kurnoths for their first round of combat before they sprout their branches. If they split their attacks, they risk mis-allocating their resources.

Not game breaking, but potentially useful.

[Landohammer]

25 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

I also have to say I'm noticing a theme: Sounds like everything you put in combat dies. T-revs, Dryads, Alarielle, spites doesn't matter. Unless it's Hunters it doesn't survive. When you play does anything other than hunters survive? I mean, is it really that  hard to screen? 

We have so much available to counterplay now. There are a lot of answers to problem like spite survivability. We can rally, verdurous harmony, lifeswarm. We have treelords who are awesome this edition who can stomp and disrupt the activation   wars. Our screens are cheap and effective, and its relatively easy to block line of sight now (maybe even easier if the woods get FAQ'd to include the half circle of the base).  

I mean everything has a counter, nothing is perfect. It goes both ways. 

 

 
******. That text is too small lol. 


 
 

All sarcasm aside, can you post up some bat rep summaries of your recent/upcoming games? I am playing a lot of games every week in a pretty tough meta and I am just not seeing wins with Sylvaneth (or Living City).  I am hungry for Sylvaneth content, especially from people who are having success with the army. 

 Last night a terrorgeist killed my Alarielle in a single round of combat and its got me flustered lol. So I am desperate for resources lol. 

 

[Havelocke]

33 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Last night a terrorgeist killed my Alarielle in a single round of combat and its got me flustered lol. So I am desperate for resources lol.

That doesn't shock me. Abhorrent Ghoul King on Royal Terrorgheist is one of the premiere hammer units in the game, and just got access to new toys.

That said, I did some number-crunching and IF Alarielle can get her roar off to deny Feeding Frenzy, she's actually got a pretty decent chance of surviving.

Spoiler

Assumes: Finest Hour, Titanic Duel, Royal Hunt, Savage Beyond Reason, Razor-Clawed

Spoiler

Should have about a 30% chance to kill without the command ability.

 

41 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

All sarcasm aside, can you post up some bat rep summaries of your recent/upcoming games?

You play way more than I do, but my schedule's opening up, and my FLGS has started opening up their tables again. I'll be sure to share some batreps when I get some games in!

[Landohammer]

6 minutes ago, Havelocke said:

That doesn't shock me. Abhorrent Ghoul King on Royal Terrorgheist is one of the premiere hammer units in the game, and just got access to new toys.

That said, I did some number-crunching and IF Alarielle can get her roar off to deny Feeding Frenzy, she's actually got a pretty decent chance of surviving.

  Reveal hidden contents

Assumes: Finest Hour, Titanic Duel, Royal Hunt, Savage Beyond Reason, Razor-Clawed

  Reveal hidden contents

Should have about a 30% chance to kill without the command ability.

 

You play way more than I do, but my schedule's opening up, and my FLGS has started opening up their tables again. I'll be sure to share some batreps when I get some games in!

Yea this was under 2nd edition. I charged him and completely whiffed (other than a single impact mortal wound). But fortunately he only did moderate damage back because of the excellent Living city Ironoak Skin spell and a mystic shield. 

However on his turn he got a spell off for +2 attacks and he had rerolls on the Maw attack and managed to reroll into three 6's. That was just straight up 18 mortal wounds lol. 

I'm not so upset that a mounted terrorgeist killed her. Thats to be expected. I am more upset that she missed with her spear and then her 4 beetle attacks failed do to a single wound. That just shouldn't happen on 740pts of investment. 

By some miracle I ended up pulling a tie 20-20, but it was mostly because of my allied Akhelian Morrsarr guard wrecking face and my Eternal Guard refusing to die. 

[Havelocke]

10 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

I am more upset that she missed with her spear and then her 4 beetle attacks failed do to a single wound. That just shouldn't happen on 740pts of investment.

I am a known Alarielle believer, but I definitely will admit that her warscroll presents a substantial whiff chance. On her raw warscroll, without any buffs, she'll deal no damage to a 4+ save about 3.5% of the time. That goes up to about 8.5% against a 3+ and about 18% against a 2+

I think running her in Gnarlroot for the innate re-roll ones will be very popular for this reason.

[Mirage8112]

1 hour ago, Havelocke said:

As I see it, it's not possible for a command ability to work this way in the new core rules. Take a look at what 6.1 states:

To use a command ability, you must spend 1 command point, pick 1 friendly model to issue the command, and pick 1 friendly unit to receive the command.

So in order for the aura to continue to function as intended, either an exception needs to be written in that lets more than one unit receive the command, or it needs to be clarified that the command is being issued to the Ancient, and the resulting aura is itself the benefit of the command ability.

The only unit that "receives" the command in this case is the Ancient, who also issues the command: "Pick 1 friendly with this command ability". The units around him benefit from it, but that's not the same as "receiving" the command. 

 

1 hour ago, Havelocke said:

This, then, raises the question about how Envoys of the Everqueen interacts with the new Command Ability system. Envoys states that:

If a friendly Sylvaneth Hero uses a command ability, friendly Sylvaneth units wholly within 12" are treated as being in range of that command ability.

This is an ambiguous rule, because it is no longer clear what the "range" of a command ability is.

The core rules states the range a hero has to be at to issue a command: Generals and totems get 18" to issue, heroes get 12", unit champions can issue commands to their units. Because of the wording, hunters are obviously not in range of unit champions (because they aren't heroes), but every hero on the board can issue a command to them: they are always considered to be "in range".       

Command abilities that have an aura have a range of effect. The envoy rule says they are always "in range" of a command abilities, so auras always effect them. They also effect any unit within 12" (just as always).

I don't see any ambiguity or conflict with the rules here. Plus the play testers have already confirmed how the above works. I suppose you could ask or wait for an FAQ, but it seems pretty cut and dry to me. 

 

1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

All sarcasm aside, can you post up some bat rep summaries of your recent/upcoming games? I am playing a lot of games every week in a pretty tough meta and I am just not seeing wins with Sylvaneth (or Living City).  

 
Considering the game is changing so much, I don't think any data from previous games will be helpful. My local is opening up for AoS on Fridays now, but it will be a few weeks before I can get down there with any regularity. Which isn't actually much of a loss, considering I don't really expect things to kick off for a few weeks yet till everyone has the book in hand.   

I don't think anybody in any of my groups has actually played any 3.0 games yet: this week will likely be the very first few trial games with digital copies of the rules and points leaks. I'm sure we'll all have some hard, practical data pretty soon, but right now is probably more the time for theory crafting than looking for receipts. 

 

1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

I am hungry for Sylvaneth content, especially from people who are having success with the army. 

Despite the lack of 3.0 games to reference, I have posted several tactical examples in this thread at various places. While the overall game is changing, I don't think how we use the units will change all that much. There's a lot of knowledge here between all of us, I'm sure somebody has some tactics you would find useful.

What in particular do you find find Sylvaneth struggle with? (The more specific you are the more likely you'll get information you can use.

 

1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

 Last night a terrorgeist killed my Alarielle in a single round of combat and its got me flustered lol. So I am desperate for resources lol. 

 

59 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

this was under 2nd edition.

I think a lot will change here. I wouldn't take anything that happened under 2.0 as indicative of how things will work in 3.0. 

Although letting a Terrorgeist get a clean shot at Alarielle without making sure it was gravely wounded will probably net you the same result. Rule of thumb: never pick a fight unless you're absolutely sure your target is going to die. Especially something as dangerous as a Terrorgeist.  

[SentinelGuy]

5 hours ago, Hoseman said:

Seriously!!!!!???? This is so bad for me... I love mixing sometimes some eternal guard or shadow warriors for that oldschool Silvan elfs vibe... so bad...

 

It doesn't even make sense when the Living City exists. GW dropped the ball once again.

Edited June 18, 2021 by SentinelGuy

[Havelocke]

It seems like nobody else agrees with my hot take, so I might just have to accept that I'm just seeing a contradiction that isn't actually there. That said, I'm gonna take another stab at explaining where I see there to be ambiguity.

The core problem with interpreting the rules as currently written is that it is never explained anywhere in the rules what "in range" means with respect to command abilities, or even what the range of a command ability is. I can already hear people disagreeing with this. Bear with me for a moment.

14 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

The only unit that "receives" the command in this case is the Ancient, who also issues the command: "Pick 1 friendly with this command ability". The units around him benefit from it, but that's not the same as "receiving" the command.

Agreed. We're on the same page here.

19 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

The core rules states the range a hero has to be at to issue a command: Generals and totems get 18" to issue, heroes get 12", unit champions can issue commands to their units. Because of the wording, hunters are obviously not in range of unit champions (because they aren't heroes), but every hero on the board can issue a command to them: they are always considered to be "in range".

So here, maybe, is our definition of what "range" means. We'll call it "issuing range". It's important to note, though, that the word "range" does not appear in the text of rule 6.0 or rule 6.1. Assuming that these distances are the "range" of command abilities is a reasonable inference, but it just isn't stated on the page.

47 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

Command abilities that have an aura have a range of effect.

And here, maybe, is our other definition of what "range" means. We'll call this one, as you dubbed it, "range of effect".

53 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

The envoy rule says they are always "in range" of a command abilities, so auras always effect them. They also effect any unit within 12" (just as always).

If the "range" of a command ability is the latter distance, which you called "range of effect," then I would agree with this. This would mean, however, that the distances outlined in 6.1 are not the range of a command ability, and Kurnoth Hunters could no longer receive Call to Battle buffs anywhere on the table. In short, I don't think that the single phrase "in range of a command ability" can mean both the "issuing range" and the "range of effect" at once, and I don't think it's clear which type of range it refers to.

[Havelocke]

1 hour ago, Mirage8112 said:

I don't see any ambiguity or conflict with the rules here. Plus the play testers have already confirmed how the above works. I suppose you could ask or wait for an FAQ, but it seems pretty cut and dry to me.

Also, as an aside. I've notice you mention answers from the playtesters a couple times. Could you point me towards their Q&A, or panel, or whatever? I'd be curious to check it out.

[Pennydude]

6 minutes ago, Havelocke said:

Also, as an aside. I've notice you mention answers from the playtesters a couple times. Could you point me towards their Q&A, or panel, or whatever? I'd be curious to check it out.

Look at the June 13th WarCom article from a play tester sayin  how it works.

[Havelocke]

16 minutes ago, Pennydude said:

Look at the June 13th WarCom article from a play tester sayin  how it works.

Oh! I didn't realize he was just talking about the WarCom articles. Cool cool.

[Mirage8112]

43 minutes ago, Havelocke said:

So here, maybe, is our definition of what "range" means. We'll call it "issuing range". It's important to note, though, that the word "range" does not appear in the text of rule 6.0 or rule 6.1. Assuming that these distances are the "range" of command abilities is a reasonable inference, but it just isn't stated on the page.

I mean, range isn't specifically  defined, but I don't think that's an oversight. Range just isn't a specialized term the way "normal move" and "Re-roll" is. 1.5.1 Talks about measuring distances, but doesn't use the specific term "range" either. Does that mean "range" doesn't exist? Doubtful. I think it's just another word for a measured distance ("distance" being a specific term they defined, but "measuring" isn't).    

I might add however, that range does appear in other warscrolls. Umbral spell portal uses the term "range" as in, "the range and visibility can be measured from the other Spellportal..." I'm not certain how this all that different, excepting the fact that command auras specifically state they effect the caster. 

 

43 minutes ago, Havelocke said:

If the "range" of a command ability is the latter distance, which you called "range of effect," then I would agree with this. This would mean, however, that the distances outlined in 6.1 are not the range of a command ability, and Kurnoth Hunters could no longer receive Call to Battle buffs anywhere on the table. In short, I don't think that the single phrase "in range of a command ability" can mean both the "issuing range" and the "range of effect" at once, and I don't think it's clear which type of range it refers to.

Again, if range isn't a specifically defined game term, then it means what it says: "distance to or from something". In such case it would likely refer to both, since both require measuring a specific distance to or from something. Separating "issuing range" from "range of effect" is not something the rules do, since you've already pointed out nowhere in the core rules do they suggest "range" is spume sort of keyword that has specific distinctions.  If range is just "the distance to or from something", then whenever you are required to measure the distance of a CA to a group of hunters for any reason, the answer is always "they are in range". Likewise anything within 12" of them are in range as well.     
 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Mirage8112

[Mirage8112]

weird double post. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Mirage8112

[Mirage8112]

32 minutes ago, Havelocke said:

Oh! I didn't realize he was just talking about the WarCom articles. Cool cool.

Actually I was talking about the Facehammer livestreams where they revealed the core rules  3.0.

In the reveal video, Russ specifically the TLA and the Kurnoth hunters extending the Command ability across the board, sometime where they are discussing the details of how command abilities work. I don't specifically remember the time stamp, I just remember it jumping out to me. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Mirage8112

[Tizianolol]

22 hours ago, Arzalyn said:

So now that we have the points, any lists you are eager to try? My first one gonna be the following (assuming the endless spells stay the same effect wise):

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Gnarlroot

Leaders
Warsong Revenant (275)
- General
- Command Trait: Nurtured by Magic
- Artefact: Chalice of Nectar
Arch-Revenant (105)
Branchwraith (95)
- Artefact: The Vesperal Gem
- Deepwood Spell: Throne of Vines
Drycha Hamadreth (330)
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth

Battleline
30 x Dryads (285)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)

Units
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (225)
- Greatswords
6 x Kurnoth Hunters (430)
- Scythes

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Spiteswarm Hive (40)
Chronomatic Cogs (45)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Wounds: 117

Battalions wound be:

- Warlord: Arch, Wraith, Drycha and one Tree-rev unit.

-  Battle Regiment: Warsong, Dryads, one Tree-rev unit and both kurnoth units.

 

This would give a 5 drop list. The basic ideia is using the revenant to get the cogs for th wraith and himself, which replicate the spiritsong staff effect and let her take a different artifact (maybe the accorn for a free woods would be better to replicate the ancient).
 

I think in this list you can chose 1 artifact for arch rev and 1 spell more for each wizard because of warlord battalion!

[Arzalyn]

1 hour ago, Tizianolol said:

I think in this list you can chose 1 artifact for arch rev and 1 spell more for each wizard because of warlord battalion!

I used the battalion to get a extra artifact for the branchwraith. To my understanding we only get one kind of enchantment when we pick the appropriate battalion, so it would be the extra artifact or the extra spell lore.

8 hours ago, Wachamba said:

I really like your list, but I want to try out the Warsong MW bomb, so I'll change it up a bit

Thanks I like the portals + more dryads in place of the endless spells! If you get any game with it let me know, the damage potential of the warsong bomb looks really good.

[overtninja]

Since we're discussing command abilities and the like with kurnoth - would a unit of kurnoth 'broadcast' the TLA's command ability to everyone around them, in addition to the TLA themselves? the 'Envoys of the Everqueen' ability seems to work that way.

[keen]

Any ideas/assumptions why Qulathis the Exile is not available in point list anymore?

Not that she was really useful... 😉

But the soulblight cursed city stuff is still in. 

[Pennydude]

55 minutes ago, overtninja said:

Since we're discussing command abilities and the like with kurnoth - would a unit of kurnoth 'broadcast' the TLA's command ability to everyone around them, in addition to the TLA themselves? the 'Envoys of the Everqueen' ability seems to work that way.

Yes.

[Aeryenn]

Look at Fyreslayers points. Much better army than Sylvaneth which was proven on countless tournaments. Runefather on Magmadroth 15 points increase. Durthu 40 points increase. Drycha 30 points increase. Kurnoth Hunters 35 points increase. Hearthguard Berzerkers 5 points increase. That's just sad.

[Grimbok]

Yeah, it’s quite rough. Kurnoths and Durthu/Ancient alone is a massive points hike. The rest is fine all things considered. But just having one of each kurnoth unit around is almost 100 points...insane...

I made a 2000 points 4 drop list...just 95 wounds....auchhh...

But the core battalions and other rules in 3.0 and the Kragnos updates seems fine for Sylvaneth, it actually seems more playable now. Without the increase for kurnoths and durthu, it might have been actually playable (maybe a win once in a while)...

 

Grimbok

[Hoseman]

I was thinking to focus on sylvaneth this edition. Is not an easy army to play, a lot of buffs and I was wondering... how many wyldwood do u usually put on table? And how many of them u own???

I feel this mechanic is cool but having to buy so much wyldwood is a bit redundant and meh for me