AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Havelocke]

Now that we've seen the full rules for command abilities, it seems like @Pennydude's assumption about stacking command abilities is correct. Beyond that, I'm somewhat disappointed to see that multi-target command abilities, like Ghyran's Wrath and Shield the Arcane, are not addressed.

One interpretation would be that, as the core rules very explicitly state that each command ability must be received by one unit, these multi-target abilities now function as single target abilities. Other possible interpretations include each unit within the radius receiving the command, or the command being received by the user of the ability.

On top of all of the above, you still have to make inferences about what it means to receive a command. The intent is very clear, but that doesn't change the fact that none of the existing faction CA's include the new nomenclature, and the rules don't tell you how to interpret a command ability that lacks the wording.

Feels like an oversight in a set of rules that has otherwise been pretty good about eliminating ambiguity.

This is also a big change for the Sylvaneth. Previously, runs and retreats were still considered to be normal moves. This means that, since a unit within 3" cannot make a normal move, we are no longer able to teleport out of combat.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Havelocke
Added movement rules

[Pennydude]

For Drycha, you pick either her melee bugs or talons with Flaming Weapon. That’s actually pretty dope. The one thing to keep in mind is that 6s will only deal 1 MW and end the sequence.

[Pennydude]

About the command abilities, we need to know about how those AoE effects are handled. We only have 2 AoE effects with them happening in separate phases (Hero and Combat). 

I do believe that our Kurnoths and those nearby can get the benefits of both CAs because they are activated in different phases AND those AoE effects are not received by any units. It’s just a static effect. The “receiving” seems to be for single-unit CAs like All-Out Attack. 

[Havelocke]

Just now, Pennydude said:

About the command abilities, we need to know about how those AoE effects are handled... the “receiving” seems to be for single-unit CAs like All-Out Attack. 

And yet we're also told that choosing one unit to receive is a part of the activation process, and therefore necessary. We really need an FAQ on that one. I think the likeliest outcome will be that the receiving unit is the one issuing the command, and benefit of the CA is the aura itself, not the buff it provides.

11 minutes ago, Pennydude said:

For Drycha, you pick either her melee bugs or talons with Flaming Weapon.

On the subject of needing FAQ's, the nice folks over in the new rules discussion have noted that, pending a clarification, unique characters cannot be given spell lores. They were rolled into 'enhancements' without an exception, and all enhancements are barred from unique characters. This will certainly be changed, but it's worth noting.

[acr0ssth3p0nd]

1 hour ago, Kaylethia said:

I'm hoping it can go on Drycha.

God, I hope so. The Core Rules specify that Unique models can't take Enhancements, but the entry for Spell Enhancements specify that every wizard knows the selected spell.

[Ravenrei]

28 minutes ago, Pennydude said:

About the command abilities, we need to know about how those AoE effects are handled. We only have 2 AoE effects with them happening in separate phases (Hero and Combat). 

I do believe that our Kurnoths and those nearby can get the benefits of both CAs because they are activated in different phases AND those AoE effects are not received by any units. It’s just a static effect. The “receiving” seems to be for single-unit CAs like All-Out Attack. 

I think the key with these AoE command abilities is that it is the TLA / Alarielle that is "receiving" the ability. The ability then creates an Aura around them (and all Kurnoths). Especially with the TLA ability it is quite clear - "pick 1 friendly model with this command ability" ... So technically speaking Kurnoths can benefit for both of them and All-Out Attack at once ...

[Pennydude]

41 minutes ago, Ravenrei said:

I think the key with these AoE command abilities is that it is the TLA / Alarielle that is "receiving" the ability. The ability then creates an Aura around them (and all Kurnoths). Especially with the TLA ability it is quite clear - "pick 1 friendly model with this command ability" ... So technically speaking Kurnoths can benefit for both of them and All-Out Attack at once ...

Yep that’s what I meant.

49 minutes ago, acr0ssth3p0nd said:

God, I hope so. The Core Rules specify that Unique models can't take Enhancements, but the entry for Spell Enhancements specify that every wizard knows the selected spell.

Unique wizards should still get lore spells because the restriction is the word “given”.

Artefacts and command traits are “given” while lore spells are not.  Lore spells are just known and is an army-wide enhancement, not an individual enhancement.

[Havelocke]

40 minutes ago, Ravenrei said:

I think the key with these AoE command abilities is that it is the TLA / Alarielle that is "receiving" the ability. The ability then creates an Aura around them (and all Kurnoths).

I'm on the same page as you about the issuing model also being the receiving model, but I wouldn't apply the resulting aura to Kurnoths through Envoys of the Everqueen. It's not going to be conclusive either way without an FAQ, but if the aura can take effect on a unit without that unit receiving a command, I don't think the effect is a command ability and therefore doesn't qualify for envoys.

3 minutes ago, Pennydude said:

Unique wizards should still get lore spells because the restriction is the word “given”. Artefacts and command traits are “given” while lore spells are not.  Lore spells are just known and is an army-wide enhancement, not an individual enhancement.

Good call out. I didn't catch that distinction. It's a very small detail, but it's one that lets you play the rule the way it's obviously intended.

[Tizianolol]

Guys normal battalions dont give us +1 ca and +1 artidact choice anymore?

[Havelocke]

1 minute ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys normal battalions dont give us +1 ca and +1 artidact choice anymore?

Core battalions cost no points, but also offer no benefit except those listed on the graphic. No artifact. No CP. No one-drop deployment.

The Warlord battalion gives a CP and an artefact, but no one-drop, while the Battle Regiment battalion gives one-drop, but nothing else.

[Mirage8112]

2 hours ago, Ravenrei said:

I think the key with these AoE command abilities is that it is the TLA / Alarielle that is "receiving" the ability. The ability then creates an Aura around them (and all Kurnoths). Especially with the TLA ability it is quite clear - "pick 1 friendly model with this command ability" ... So technically speaking Kurnoths can benefit for both of them and All-Out Attack at once ...

The play testers on the stream confirmed how this works. The restrictions on CA's are as follows: 

Each command ability can be used 1 time per phase. 

A  unit/hero can issue 1 command per phase

A unit can receive one command per phase. 

In the case of the Heed the Spirit Song, the TLA is the model issuing the command in the hero phase. He is also the target.

In this case, he can issue the command in the hero phase to himself, and issue all out defense to a unit of Kurnoth hunters in the combat phase, and thus the Kurnoths can benefit from both in the their turn. 
 

3 hours ago, Havelocke said:

This is also a big change for the Sylvaneth. Previously, runs and retreats were still considered to be normal moves. This means that, since a unit within 3" cannot make a normal move, we are no longer able to teleport out of combat.

Teleport isn't a move though. It's a set-up. This has been confirmed to still be different from a regular move. They specifically referenced that units that teleport in (or are set-up via summoning for example) can't trigger the "Redeploy" CA because it only works when model ends a regular move within 9".

 

2 hours ago, Havelocke said:

On the subject of needing FAQ's, the nice folks over in the new rules discussion have noted that, pending a clarification, unique characters cannot be given spell lores. They were rolled into 'enhancements' without an exception, and all enhancements are barred from unique characters. This will certainly be changed, but it's worth noting.

 

1 hour ago, Pennydude said:

Unique wizards should still get lore spells because the restriction is the word “given”.

Artefacts and command traits are “given” while lore spells are not.  Lore spells are just known and is an army-wide enhancement, not an individual enhancement.

 
I'm still a bit fuzzy on how this works, since it's all so new. It seems to me that spell lores are given, because they fall under the enchantment umbrella. However, it does seem like a grey area and the book also says that "battletome override core rules" (as always) so it would seem the Unique characters can get access to faction specific spell lores, but maybe not generic ones?

It also appears that you can mix and match lores if you have more than one available, so you could take the flaming weapons spell on any wizard without needing a second enhancement; you just wouldn't be able to do that and take a faction specific spell... I think. 
 

1 hour ago, Havelocke said:

Core battalions cost no points, but also offer no benefit except those listed on the graphic. No artifact. No CP. No one-drop deployment.

The Warlord battalion gives a CP and an artefact, but no one-drop, while the Battle Regiment battalion gives one-drop, but nothing else

 
Spent some time fiddling around with core battalions, and its very possible to run double warlord, but would require us to double up on a hero. Double warsong is attractive for its versatility but it's expensive. Somebody recently mentioned double wraith and at first glance I'd have to agree. -1 to hit and -1 rend seems to beat out the extra attack and extra point of damage. 

Which is fine. having extra heroes on the board will make it a lot harder for your opponent to score the grand strategy of removing all your heroes, and the innate -1 to hit just makes it that much more attractive. And while we can't get better than -1 total, having the extra -1 from "look out sir" will be very helpful when facing models that gain +hit bonuses at range (i.e. -2 to hit vs +1 to hit results in a net -1 to hit). 

 

2 hours ago, Pennydude said:

For Drycha, you pick either her melee bugs or talons with Flaming Weapon. That’s actually pretty dope. The one thing to keep in mind is that 6s will only deal 1 MW and end the sequence.

It's also worth noting that on hit effects (i.e. rolling a 6 to wound deal 1 MW) no longer stack. i.e. Drycha in winterleaf would need to choose between the mortal wound or the extra hit. So would sword hunters. 

This is mostly a loss, but oddly enough there are a few winners, Drycha in winterleaf with flaming squirmlings would be able to choose between the MW or the extra hit for 2 damage. Might provide some toolkit versatility: fighting something elite with a great save? Take the Mortal wound for 1 damage. Fighting a horde with a low armor save? Take the extra hit for a chance at 4 damage. Could be really ugly.

 
  

Edited June 14, 2021 by Mirage8112

[Pennydude]

@Mirage8112 Sword Kurnoths are unaffected because their MW are on 6s to wound.

[Mirage8112]

9 minutes ago, Pennydude said:

Sword Kurnoths are unaffected because their MW are on 6s to wound.

Nice.

Shows you how often I play sword hunters 🤪

[Havelocke]

13 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

Teleport isn't a move though. It's a set-up. This has been confirmed to still be different from a regular move. They specifically referenced that units that teleport in (or are set-up via summoning for example) can't trigger the "Redeploy" CA because it only works when model ends a regular move within 9".

Teleporting itself isn't a normal move, but our teleport rules still need it to be possible. Navigate Realmroots, Spirit Paths, and Waypipes all contain the phrase "instead of making a normal move" as a requirement for activation. If a model can't make a normal move, it can't use an ability that requires it. Sinister Ambush is unaffected, though.

This could probably get FAQ'd. I believe that the intent behind the clause is to prevent models from moving after teleporting, which is what it did in the old core rules. Just an unintended side effect of a structural change.

[Mirage8112]

Just now, Havelocke said:

Teleporting itself isn't a normal move, but our teleport rules still need it to be possible. Navigate Realmroots, Spirit Paths, and Waypipes all contain the phrase "instead of making a normal move" as a requirement for activation. If a model can't make a normal move, it can't use an ability that requires it. Sinister Ambush is unaffected, though.

This could probably get FAQ'd. I believe that the intent behind the clause is to prevent models from moving after teleporting, which is what it did in the old core rules. Just an unintended side effect of a structural change.

I've seen this debated a bunch of times, mostly in regard to dryads who've been summoned into a WW via a wraith. As far as I know there hasn't been a official FAQ on it. 

I am firmly on the side that says restrictions on moves don't affect our ability to teleport. Saying you can do X "instead of a regular move" means "you can do one or the other"; you just can't do both. If you didn't move in the movement phase (for any reason), then you can teleport. It doesn't matter why you didn't move, all that matters is that you don't. 

Sort of like, "Instead of wearing blue shoes, you can choose to wear yellow shoes". What if you don't have any blue shoes? there's no reason you can't rock your yellow kicks. You just can't wear two pairs of shoes at the same time. 

[Havelocke]

14 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

I've seen this debated a bunch of times... I am firmly on the side that says restrictions on moves don't affect our ability to teleport.

I come down on the other side, in terms of what the rules actually say, but I totally respect this position. I also think it's probably what the designers intended. Certainly no need to beat it to death when there's so much other new stuff going on!

[Mirage8112]

1 hour ago, Havelocke said:

I come down on the other side, in terms of what the rules actually say, but I totally respect this position. I also think it's probably what the designers intended. Certainly no need to beat it to death when there's so much other new stuff going on!

I respect that. Well said. 

The other thing is some warscrolls will probably be adjusted and clarified in the same manner as when AoS 2.0 dropped. a lot of core mechanics have changed (like moves) that affects a wide variety of abilities and rules interactions. 

I really want to know if unique characters can take spells. Alarielle getting access to the flaming weapon spell is pretty big, as would be Drycha. Probably bigger for her, because without access to the even the basic spell lore she's stuck with her bravery based MW spell. Something you'll only use in a bravery-rebuff based build.
 

[Kaylethia]

1 hour ago, Mirage8112 said:

I really want to know if unique characters can take spells.

I'm still going to agrue that yes, uniques can get spells. Unlike artefacts, mount traits, etc, a spell lore enhanchement isn't given to a unit or model, but instead grants a spell from an available spell lore to every wizard in your army. As per the Spell Lore sidebar in the core rules.

I can see how it would be different if the enhancement would give A spell to A wizard.

I first read it as every wizard getting a spell from a single spell lore, and I was pondering lists that would get a second spell lore enhancement, and how I would use the rest of the generic spell lore. Flying Durthu was sounding pretty cool.

[Mirage8112]

Anybody notice the changes to cover? Now you get cover if your unit is “fully behind” a piece of scenery.
 

This makes think the wording on WW is meant to be used with this particular rule: i.e. if you’re behind even a single tree you get the benefits of cover without having to be fully in an enclosed wood. This makes me think even single Wyldwood trees block line of sight as well, since by the current cover rules you would have to measure 3” “through a Wyldwood” even if that entire 3” wasn’t part of the WW. 

[Walkirriox]

2 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Anybody notice the changes to cover? Now you get cover if your unit is “fully behind” a piece of scenery.
 

This makes think the wording on WW is meant to be used with this particular rule: i.e. if you’re behind even a single tree you get the benefits of cover without having to be fully in an enclosed wood. This makes me think even single Wyldwood trees block line of sight as well, since by the current cover rules you would have to measure 3” “through a Wyldwood” even if that entire 3” wasn’t part of the WW. 

But that will only applies to shooting right? 
 

So in combat does it remains the same or you no longer receive cover from being wholly within that terrain?

Edited June 15, 2021 by Walkirriox

[a74xhx]

5 hours ago, Kaylethia said:

I'm still going to agrue that yes, uniques can get spells. Unlike artefacts, mount traits, etc, a spell lore enhanchement isn't given to a unit or model, but instead grants a spell from an available spell lore to every wizard in your army. As per the Spell Lore sidebar in the core rules.

I can see how it would be different if the enhancement would give A spell to A wizard.

I first read it as every wizard getting a spell from a single spell lore, and I was pondering lists that would get a second spell lore enhancement, and how I would use the rest of the generic spell lore. Flying Durthu was sounding pretty cool.

Agreed. I think of it like an aura.

Heed the Spirit-song, is a command ability. The target is a TLA. Its effect is to reroll saves of 1 of all models within 12.

Spell Lore is an enhancement. The target is your army. Its effect is to give one extra spell to all wizards in your army.

 

Anyone mention this yet. In the universal artefacts of power:

Quote

 

Seed of Rebirth: This seed-shaped gem hails from Ghyran, the Realm of Life.

You can re-roll heroic recovery rolls for the bearer.

 

For the sake of stopping confusion, I'm hoping the Sylvaneth Seed Of Rebirth gets a rename.

[Quooch]

Hi guys,

does anyone noticed yet that monsters can "destroy" our woods?

The "Monstrous Rampages"-table consists the ability "Smash to Rubble". That rule says: "Pick 1 faction terrain feature or defensible terrain feature within 3" of this model and roll a dice. On 3+, the terrain feature is demolished if it was defensible, and the scenery rules on its warscrolll cannot be used for the rest of battle if it was a faction terrain feature."

How do you think about it? I guess it can be the next huge impact for our gameplay since we lost the ability to jump threw the woods with as many units as we like to do 😕 ...

[Walkirriox]

39 minutes ago, Quooch said:

Hi guys,

does anyone noticed yet that monsters can "destroy" our woods?

The "Monstrous Rampages"-table consists the ability "Smash to Rubble". That rule says: "Pick 1 faction terrain feature or defensible terrain feature within 3" of this model and roll a dice. On 3+, the terrain feature is demolished if it was defensible, and the scenery rules on its warscrolll cannot be used for the rest of battle if it was a faction terrain feature."

How do you think about it? I guess it can be the next huge impact for our gameplay since we lost the ability to jump threw the woods with as many units as we like to do 😕 ...

We discussed it some pages before. The warscroll cannot be used so we don’t have the MW output and LOS denial but we can still teleport as it is on our allegiance ability and the terrain remains being a Wyldwood (doesn’t lose the keyword).

[a74xhx]

No Balewind Vortex listed in the new General's Handbook!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/15/ghur-basically-eats-your-objectives-with-the-rules-in-the-new-generals-handbook/

 

Clearly it's because I only got round to painting mine earlier this year.

[Havelocke]

1 hour ago, a74xhx said:

No Balewind Vortex listed in the new General's Handbook!

I think it's a bummer, but not particularly surprising. The balewind vortex was used almost exclusively to create death star units, which is something that they are clearly trying to avoid in the new edition.