AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Mirage8112]

1 hour ago, Popisdead said:

I'm not.

Uh. Ok. 
 

I’m just saying the rules aren’t that inconsistent just because an axe has a 2” handle it doesn’t mean it has a 2” reach.

And anyone else seen the core battalions? 
 

 

[Arzalyn]

9 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

And anyone else seen the core battalions?

So if we use 2 in any combination of Ancient, Durthu and Drycha we can't do a 1 drop (unless you can take the same battalion twice, but even then it will be a two drop).

Other than that, if battalions still give a free artifact it shouldn't be hard to get one or two in most list, as we have some pretty good artifacts in our time.

[Mirage8112]

10 hours ago, Arzalyn said:

So if we use 2 in any combination of Ancient, Durthu and Drycha we can't do a 1 drop (unless you can take the same battalion twice, but even then it will be a two drop).

Honestly I think one drop armies are overrated. I will likely be playing for second turn, but first turn has it’s advantages too. 
With deployment being so important for Sylvaneth there might be some advantage to deploying against an opponent who is trying to capture his preferred turn choice with a one-drop list. Once I know where all those sentinels are it makes deploying important units out of range (or off the board) that much easier.    

 

10 hours ago, Arzalyn said:

Other than that, if battalions still give a free artifact it shouldn't be hard to get one or two in most list, as we have some pretty good artifacts in our time.

I hope so. I’d like to see artifacts be easier to bring since we have a lot of really interesting stuff in our inventory that never sees play.  



Also the army composition limits hit today. Hoo-boy. Mandatory MSU lists? Only 1-2 units larger than max size? Limits on endless spells and invocations? Nuts.

Couple of things are evident right away, some things will get their min unit size increased, but overall we’re going to see a lot more small units on the board. Indirectly a buff for Alarielle’s spell and wood generation, since it’s a lot easier to kill a unit of 5 than a unit of 30. Should also make her spear more effective at wiping out small screening units since I can’t see somebody spending their 1-2 reenforced unit allotment on screens. 

[Trevelyan]

A 2000 point game is 0-4 reinforcements, I can see two on units of Kurnoths (now apparently capped at 6 models) and two on dryads or spites if nothing changes on our existing unit sizes. That’s scope for either a single dryad blob of 30, or two blobs of 20. Or whatever you feel like doing with revenants. 
 

edit: it’s good to be back

Edited June 11, 2021 by Trevelyan

[a74xhx]

reinforcements vs reinforced units - ugh, this is going to be confusing.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/11/how-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-age-of-sigmar-affects-every-faction/  - We'll get a run down on either Sunday, Monday or Tuesday then (depending if these articles are coming out at the weekends). Hopefully it'll have a bit more info than the Slaanesh one.

[Havelocke]

I feel like the new reinforced unit rules are going to be a net positive for Sylvaneth in the new edition.

We've lost the ability to run nine Kurnoths, and losing the discount on large dryad blocks hurts a bit, but I think those are the only changes of note for the army. Tree revenants have always been best as MSU, and spite revenants have never really been competitive, outside of MSU outcasts battalions.

When you compare that to the rest of the field, I think some other factions got hurt a lot more. Our relative lack of 'elite' multi-model, non-battleline units means that our lists will have to adjust to the rules a lot less than many other armies. 

[Walkirriox]

3 hours ago, Havelocke said:

When you compare that to the rest of the field, I think some other factions got hurt a lot more. Our relative lack of 'elite' multi-model, non-battleline units means that our lists will have to adjust to the rules a lot less than many other armies. 

I was thinking the same. It hurts just a bit to us, or even nothing at all, but most armies are suffering a lot. Also all the new rules make our big trees even better, I hope treelords finally see a good solid spot in our lists being competitive. I like Kurnoths, don’t get me wrong, but wouldn’t you love to see the table full of big trees stomping around?

Alarielle’s summoning has much more value now. If you summon dryads/treerev/spites you get a free reinforced point (that’s more than just +180/200points on the field). So now you can have, let’s say a solid 30 dryads block, a couple of 6 kurnoth scytes and 20 more dryads to sit on a cleared objective, which is an advantage other armies won’t have. 

I started pessimistic with the changes, but the more I see and the more I analyze, it makes me have a better feeling for Sylvaneth’s future.

[Mirage8112]

On 6/11/2021 at 3:11 PM, Walkirriox said:

I was thinking the same. It hurts just a bit to us, or even nothing at all, but most armies are suffering a lot. Also all the new rules make our big trees even better, I hope treelords finally see a good solid spot in our lists being competitive. I like Kurnoths, don’t get me wrong, but wouldn’t you love to see the table full of big trees stomping around?

Honestly I can’t think of a single change that hasn’t be an overall buff for us or a slight nerf while our most difficult match ups (6-9 eel Squads for example) just became a lot more expensive, harder to play from the new coherency rules, and limited in how many you can field.

On 6/11/2021 at 3:11 PM, Walkirriox said:

Alarielle’s summoning has much more value now. If you summon dryads/treerev/spites you get a free reinforced point (that’s more than just +180/200points on the field). So now you can have, let’s say a solid 30 dryads block, a couple of 6 kurnoth scytes and 20 more dryads to sit on a cleared objective, which is an advantage other armies won’t have. 

The branchwraiths summoning got better as well, since 10 dryads vs other minimum sized units means they’ll stick around longer and have to save against fewer attackers. 

Dryads are also much better in 3.0 being that they have 2 attacks each and a 2” range. The new coherency rules will force units to pack tighter to get more attacks in combat which will make it easier to fit them in a WW; which should also be easier to find on the table.

T-revs and spites will largely play the same: it was rare to see them in squads of anything other than 5. 

But the new command abilities really benefit them, and unit leaders can issue commands, so we don’t need to babysit them with a hero anymore.

Since a unit can only benefit from 1 command ability at a time, we can’t just pour 2-3 points every turn into hunters. All-out attack is great on T-revs boosting them to hit on 3’s. Their targets will be smaller and they should be taking less damage in retaliation. 

Depending on how battleshock works, spites will either play the same, or better. WCom has said only one unit can benefit from inspiring presence at a time which means an MSU list of spites debuffing bravery and forcing a RR on successful tests might be more useful. 

I’m curious to see how battalions will function beyond what we’ve already seen today. I’m very curious to see how they’re costed. The only reason we took our battalions was to get the extra CP and artifact. But prior to this some factions just had crazy great battalions. I’m not sure why I’d take a battalion from the book unless it was noticeably cheaper or it fit in really well with a broader strategy.

The fact that the benefits for one battalion is the ability to one drop all the units in it makes me think faction battalions are are definitely moving to open/narrative play. Or, at the very least, the benefits they have past what’s on their warscroll will be drastically reduced. 
 

On 6/11/2021 at 3:11 PM, Walkirriox said:

So now you can have, let’s say a solid 30 dryads block, a couple of 6 kurnoth scytes and 20 more dryads to sit on a cleared objective, which is an advantage other armies won’t have. 

 

Depending on points changes, the overall changes to the way 2.0 plays fits right into our playstyle and stuff we were already taking (groups of 6 hunters, blocks of dryads, big monsters) are either relatively stronger (because other stuff got weaker) or received new abilities that makes them a lot more versatile on the tabletop. 
 

So far this looks to be a really good edition for us. There are a lot of things we still don’t know, particularly how we pick artifacts and how that fits with the new core battalions. But I like alot of what I’m seeing. 

Edited June 13, 2021 by Mirage8112

[Havelocke]

2 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

So far this looks to be a really good edition for us. There are a lot of things we still don’t know, particularly how we pick artifacts and how that fits with the new core battalions. But I like alot of what I’m seeing. 

This is a total guess, but I suspect that artefacts might fall under the 'enhancements' mentioned as a benefit of a couple detachments.

[Warheadsbylink]

 

Edit- disregard this, I wasn't aware that the rule was something specific to Nagash only. Thanks Pennydude. 

It seems that you can now cast arcane bolt as many times as you like, and you can even hold the spell until you are in combat and then do bonus damage with it.

It makes me more optimistic about Alarielle, she can potentially cast it three times, charge, cause impact damage then 3d3 mortals from arcane bolt and then next turn retreat/charge after healing 2d6.

Although the wording below says you choose any one phase so not sure if you can trigger all three at the start of the combat phase or not.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Warheadsbylink

[Pennydude]

@Warheadsbylink

Nagash has a clause on his warscroll that allows him to cast Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield as many times as they want.  Arkham also has that ability too. Otherwise, it’s just one cast per spell per turn.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Pennydude

[Abstract_duck]

Had a game with the new rules.

Loved being able to place down a forest with less trees. It enabled the possibility of putting down a forest near my objectives, and somewhat in the way of the opponent. Stacking drayds and forest+places of power on the objective was easy like this. 

Also tried the Warsong+spellportal+chalice+balewind. I had some trouble getting it off, but managed to do so in the 3rd turn, without any prioor buff's. I don't think I'll be using it again like that. It hit about 5 units, dealing at least 20 mortal wounds without any risk associated to it. It didn't really matter for the game. But, not too fun for a casual game, I think. I was quite unlucky with my first casts, getting lot's of 1's and 2', even with the chalice, but normally I'd say the combo is a bit too reliable and safe & rewarding massive turtling.

[Havelocke]

No huge revelations in our faction focus article this morning, but some good call-outs, I think.

If area effect command abilities like Ghyran's Wrath or Shield the Arcane get their buffs out without requiring a unit to receive the command, and therefore without counting against the unit's limit on command abilities, they could see a hefty boost in their utility.

Our tome also has about a million ways to hand out 're-roll ones' to our units, and those abilities also become better in a world where All-Out Attack, All-Out Defence, and other abilities buff the dice instead of granting their own re-rolls, which allows our re-roll abilities to have synergy with the core command abilities, instead of overlapping.

7 hours ago, Abstract_duck said:

Also tried the Warsong+spellportal+chalice+balewind. I had some trouble getting it off, but managed to do so in the 3rd turn, without any prioor buff's. I don't think I'll be using it again like that. It hit about 5 units, dealing at least 20 mortal wounds without any risk associated to it. It didn't really matter for the game. But, not too fun for a casual game, I think. I was quite unlucky with my first casts, getting lot's of 1's and 2', even with the chalice, but normally I'd say the combo is a bit too reliable and safe & rewarding massive turtling.

What was your opponent playing @Abstract_duck? It sounds like you got a bit unlucky to not get it off until turn three, and would normally be more reliable, but it's also a pretty disruptable combo, offering multiple chances to unbind.

[Pennydude]

Kurnoths were confirmed to count as 2 models on objectives.

[Abstract_duck]

3 hours ago, Havelocke said:

 

What was your opponent playing @Abstract_duck? It sounds like you got a bit unlucky to not get it off until turn three, and would normally be more reliable, but it's also a pretty disruptable combo, offering multiple chances to unbind.

Yep, I was ust very unlucky. Rolling lot's of 2's and 1's - not even getting spells off with the +1 warsong bonus all the while using Chalice (rolling 1,1,2 and the like) so I didn't lose out on the spells because of dispells. Was good for the game though, since the time I got it off was a bit too much 

[Mirage8112]

2 hours ago, Havelocke said:

No huge revelations in our faction focus article this morning, but some good call-outs, I think.

Agreed. These faction-focus articles really seem to just be a quick overview of the faction generally with a few highlights of how the new rules interact with existing abilities and units. So no big reveals about the rules set. However it is giving me some ideas of things I’m interested in testing. 

A reenforced block of 20 dryads (4x5) or even a triple reinforced block of 30 (6x5) seems like its going to be crazy hard to shift. Get your stagger right, and you should be able to attack in 3 ranks of 6. That’s 36 attacks, with 2 ranks in the back ready to replace lost models. Even 25mm bases will only be able to get 2 ranks within 1” to attack, and 32mm bases or bigger will only be able to get the first rank in range. 

If the cap of +/- 1 to stats like saves holds, then dryads won’t really have to worry about fighting in cover, since they will have a 4+ save from have 10+ models in the unit. The “Rally” CA looks really effective on big blocks of troops (of which there will be less on the table): lose 10 get back 2-3 (if it works in your opponents hero phase, then you get another 2ish)  . Pair with emerald lifeswarm and get another 2 back every hero phase. That’s ~8 back per turn.  

Now pair that with the TLA. Position him right (just behind your third staggered rank of dryads) and he can attack without receiving any attacks back. If you don’t have any good spell targets, load him with arcane bolt. Now he can do 2d3 mortal wounds to a charging unit and force it to fight last on a 4+.

Artifact options + CA on TLA:

Vesperal Gem means he can bring back another d3 dryads (effectively replacing 10 per turn), or auto-heal himself for a total of 2d3+d6 (average of 4-6 wounds). In Gnarlroot, you’d be rolling 3d3+d6 healing ~10 wounds. Pair with the Earth Defends and get a further 6+ vs mortal and any wounds that sneak through. 

Oakenarmor: Use All out Defense and he’s sporting a 2+ save RR 1’s saving the CP for the rest of the army.

Glamorweave: 5+ save vs mortal wounds sounds great, considering ranged mortal wounds are the only real threat to his survivability. Pairing that with his RR 1’s aura, him and the dryads both RR 1’s for saves, as do a unit of charging hunters and anything within 12” of them. If you can manage to get mystic shield off with him, then he’s a 2+ save, RR 1’s. 

That’s a lot of board control that you can put just about anywhere: just teleport the whole set-up to an open forest (or make one courtesy of silent communion). If you’re concerned about a first turn alpha strike just deploy the whole set-up in reserves and drop it on a free wood. Something with that level of resiliency would make a very effective set-up for holding the center of the board while the rest of the army threatens objectives or generally makes itself a nuisance.  

 

2 hours ago, Havelocke said:

If area effect command abilities like Ghyran's Wrath or Shield the Arcane get their buffs out without requiring a unit to receive the command, and therefore without counting against the unit's limit on command abilities, they could see a hefty boost in their utility.

WarCom says units can only “benefit” from one command ability at a time, regardless of how it’s issued:
 

Quote

The new ruleset allows each unit to benefit from only a single command ability at a time, so you’ll see a lot more synergy with multiple units working together, instead of budding generals putting all their eggs in one basket. You won’t feel quite as compelled to ‘max out’ every unit to make them effective. 

Note it doesn’t say you can’t issue multiple commands from a unit, but it’s likely new commands will either replace old ones, or you’ll have too choose which to apply (most likely the former). 

 

1 hour ago, Pennydude said:

Kurnoths were confirmed to count as 2 models on objectives.

 The preview for pre-order also said that in the new GHB they are reworking/updating all the faction specific endless spells as well. I’m curious in things like the Skullroot will get its damage reduced: D6 mortal wounds twice per turn plus d3 fleeing models is no joke. 

 

[Havelocke]

2 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

WarCom says units can only “benefit” from one command ability at a time, regardless of how it’s issued:

True. They also contradict that in the StD article, when they say that Knights of Chaos Chaos can be combined with All-Out Defence because they're activated in different phases.

In both cases, we're essentially looking at marketing copy, rather than the actual rules. I'm witholding judgment until I see the actual rules text.

[Pennydude]

I’ll start posting again.

I think the idea is that a unit can only receive one command per phase so stacking abilities activated in different phases should be fine.

Otherwise, using the TLA’s command ability would mean Kurnoths couldn’t be affected by another CA.

[Arzalyn]

On 6/11/2021 at 5:53 AM, Mirage8112 said:

I hope so. I’d like to see artifacts be easier to bring since we have a lot of really interesting stuff in our inventory that never sees play.  

So now that the rules are available, its possible to get 2 core battalions (they don't cost points and the ones that give a extra enchantment gives an extra artifact). The problem is to get 2 enchantments we need 2 leaders + 4 leaders with less than 10 wounds. Arch-revenant, warsong, branchwraith and branchwych are all good heroes, but unless we use duplicates of them, 6 leaders seems a little too much...

On the positive side, getting 1 extra artifact should be really easy in most lists, as the Branchwraith + Arch-revenant/warsong are super common sights in most lists (which is really good for us as all of our sub allegiances locks our first artifact). The general composition of those battalions also make list building much more interesting, as we have some pretty good artifacts but had some pretty restrictive battalions composition for the warscrolls ones.

Can't wait to see our points and start toying with some lists!

[Pennydude]

1 hour ago, Arzalyn said:

So now that the rules are available, its possible to get 2 core battalions (they don't cost points and the ones that give a extra enchantment gives an extra artifact). The problem is to get 2 enchantments we need 2 leaders + 4 leaders with less than 10 wounds. Arch-revenant, warsong, branchwraith and branchwych are all good heroes, but unless we use duplicates of them, 6 leaders seems a little too much...

I think duplicate Warsong Revenants can be good.  Lots of magic prowess, durability, and bravery shenanigans.

[a74xhx]

4 hours ago, Pennydude said:

I think duplicate Warsong Revenants can be good.  Lots of magic prowess, durability, and bravery shenanigans.

That's a lot of points though.

Maybe it's time for the return of the double branchwraith? Cheap as chips and I'd still take a second wraith over a branchwych

[Abstract_duck]

1 hour ago, a74xhx said:

That's a lot of points though.

Maybe it's time for the return of the double branchwraith? Cheap as chips and I'd still take a second wraith over a branchwych

I'd think the security of 2 warsongs for his signature spell & throne+verdant blessing is well worth the points, especially now that MSU is going to be a thing.

[Grimmlock619]

Flaming Weapon is going to make Alarielle's Talon pretty good. For each attack that goes through thats 2 rolls for the instakill.

[Kaylethia]

5 minutes ago, Grimmlock619 said:

Flaming Weapon is going to make Alarielle's Talon pretty good. For each attack that goes through thats 2 rolls for the instakill.

I'm hoping it can go on Drycha.

[Grimmlock619]

8 minutes ago, Kaylethia said:

I'm hoping it can go on Drycha.

I didnt even think of that.

Flaming weapon on drycha is going to be crazy too. With all out attack and finest hour, one of her weapons can be 20 attacks 2s to hit, 3s to wound 2 dmg each, or the other can be 10 attacks 3s, 2s to wound, -2, 3 dmg each.