AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Freejack02]

7 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

I agree that it useless, which was my point.

Yeah, not much point taking it further, we just don't agree about the state of Alarielle's rules and that's fine. People will continue to point out what isn't looking too strong, and you'll keep saying that you personally have incredible success and everyone else must be looking at things incorrectly or making too many mistakes while playing. 

8 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

Nobody seems to be talking about Roar. The ability to shut down command abilities on a 3+?  Goodbye battleshock immunity.

Because it doesn't work for battleshock test, it only takes effect for the combat phase. 

[Mirage8112]

Just now, Havelocke said:

Man, I wish. Roar only lasts for the combat phase, though. I'm still hoping they remove Inspiring Presence, or put some restrictions on it.

Missed that! Good catch!

I do suspect there might be a change to this, only because unit champions can issue commands now. Previously you had to commit a hero to babysitting a unit to ensure your immunity.

I also wonder how fast we’ll be burning through CP now. They are reset every turn aren’t they?   

[Mirage8112]

26 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

People will continue to point out what isn't looking too strong, and you'll keep saying that you personally have incredible success and everyone else must be looking at things incorrectly or making too many mistakes while playing. 

I mean you’re not wrong. Looking at losses on the tabletop as mistakes in play rather than balance issues means I can do something about it. I can’t change Alarielle’s cost or rewrite her warscroll. I can adjust my deployment. I can choose not to charge her in unsupported. I can change how I use her on the tabletop. 

In fact, I do everything I can to understand why something is pointed the way it is rather than writing it off wholesale. Even units I don’t regularly play.

Isn’t that why this forum exists? To make changes in play and list building to find success it’s what is admittedly a difficult faction to play? And then to spread the success to other players? Or is this the place we all cry and moan about how hard life is and and how GW hates us and how the only way we’ll ever be good is if we get that mythically OP battletome? 

The thing is people only listen to bad news. Especially with Warhammer. I’ve been in the game since 7th edition fantasy and its way better than it used to be but if a faction takes more than a little skill to play you’ll hear “it sucks” way more often then how good they can be. Tell everyone you’re getting rolled and “playing is hard” you’ll find a lot of agreement.  Say your doing fine and all your hear is “maybe your opponents are bad.” 

We’ve had a lot of really good changes. The change to our woods is huge. The changes to Alarielle’s warscroll are really promising. The new model seems to fill a really nice roll in the army.

We have a lot of new tools. Personally I’m stoked and can’t wait to get back to rolling over players with my “sub par army” once I’m not on 24 hour diaper duty.  

Edited June 4, 2021 by Mirage8112

[Kaylethia]

2 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

People will continue to point out what isn't looking too strong, and you'll keep saying that you personally have incredible success and everyone else must be looking at things incorrectly or making too many mistakes while playing. 

Anecdotal, but ever since 1.0, my main opponent (pre-CoS Disposessed player, CoS after it released) has been singing the praises of Thunderers for years, mathhammer and all. Great player, and to borrow a turn of phrase from MtG, could probably win with a ham sandwich. Constantly got told that Thunderers suck, Irondrakes is where it's at, despite math and batreps showing otherwise. 

A second anecdote: I love Tree-Revenants. I will incorporate them into many lists I make, because of their flexibility and shenanigans that force the opponent to make choices like leaving a unit to safeguard artillery or a support hero, camping something on a backline objective, etc. while also enabling me to play a more mobile game than our usual amount of teleports. 

Now, disregard my opinions and anecdotes if you will, I am an easily distracted player who seldom ekes out a win, and usually gets to take his pieces off the board as units are deleted. But that's on me, not the army.

[Lanoss]

@Landohammer what pts cost would you logically value Alarielle at? 
ignoring the cost of her summonable unit, one can argue she’s pointed at 540

So objectively, how would you cost a 3 cast wizard that knows all the spells in the lore (to gain bonuses to cast, heal modes, heal units, summon woods, cast reroll 1s to hit and wound), can retreat shoot & charge with a damage 6 2+/2+/-2 shot and mortals on the charge and high damage melee attacks and heals itself 2d6 a turn?

I mean, personally I’d like to see something like that cost 480/500pts. So are we talking about a 40pt decrease to make her more palatable?

(not trying to be provocative, just leading a discussion)

[Landohammer]

14 hours ago, Havelocke said:

How do we feel about Drycha with these new rules? A lot of her damage typically comes from mortals, but +1/+1 on 20 attacks with +0/+1 on ten more is a lot of extra power...

 

I am pretty excited. She is the best monster in our book and she just got flat out better. I worry she will get a points increase though. I am optimistic that bravery will be more important than ever so I'm hoping Spites (and thus her synnergy with spites) will actually become significant. 

 

13 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

 

So, in the case of the Lumineth do you know what you did wrong? Like, maybe, having Alarielle within 18” of a casting unit at the start of the hero phase? how about the other games? Did you properly screen her? Did you overcommit? Did you have proper support?

Or did you play everything absolutely perfectly and there was nothing you can do? 

 

 

You are clearly achieving success with Sylvaneth that no one else is so we are just never going to agree. I occasionally eek out a positive record at events but winning real events with pure Sylvaneth is usually out of the question, at least for me. And every data tracking metric agrees with me on that. Maybe you are just an outlier? Do you have some of your event data you can show us?

But I did want to address this point: Most LRL players use spellportal to extend their ranges, and in fact probably 80% of my games vs LRL they have brought that spell specifically for that reason. But here is the real kicker. Alarielle is a huge investment. I don't have the resources to screen her and hide her in my backfield where she isn't doing anything. And what units are fast enough to keep up with her to properly screen her? 

The real reason she gets shot/charged/killed is because she is usually flying around causing havoc and doing her job. If I need to baby sit her, then why bring her at all?

 

5 hours ago, Lanoss said:

@Landohammer what pts cost would you logically value Alarielle at? 
ignoring the cost of her summonable unit, one can argue she’s pointed at 540

So objectively, how would you cost a 3 cast wizard that knows all the spells in the lore (to gain bonuses to cast, heal modes, heal units, summon woods, cast reroll 1s to hit and wound), can retreat shoot & charge with a damage 6 2+/2+/-2 shot and mortals on the charge and high damage melee attacks and heals itself 2d6 a turn?

I mean, personally I’d like to see something like that cost 480/500pts. So are we talking about a 40pt decrease to make her more palatable?

(not trying to be provocative, just leading a discussion)

Excellent question. Here are some similar special characters we can draw inspiration from:

Exalted Demons: 16 wounds casters with a good pool of wounds, saves, some abilities and some fighting: ~390

Kairos: 3 Cast monster wizard with fly: 400

Teclis: God tier flier/caster with lots going on: 660

She is essentially a greater demon on steroids in terms of overall performance. So I would probably place her higher than an exalted demon but less than Teclis. The summoning is not super material since greater/exalted demons have the capacity to generate summoning and are not taxed for that ability. 

So I say we meet in the middle and place her firmly at 530pts with her old warscroll, and probably around 600pts with her new warscroll. Though of course the new monster abilities revealed yesterday are hard to properly cost since I haven't seen their impact in game yet. 

Lets all remember there are characters in the game, such as Eltharion, Skarbrand, mounted terrorgeists, Son of Behemot and keeper of secrets that can perform at the same level as Alarielle in combat, for 200-300pts less.  

 

[keen]

Unfortunately I haven't played my Sylvaneth that much since the Covid thing started. But I still like Alarielle's summoning feature and I am happy to spend ~200pts more in her point cost. Even if not all of the summable units are worth 200pts it gives you a lot of flexibility based situations in game, e.g. do I need Kurnoths with bows/swords/scythes, a tree lord, reventants... 

As they will come at the end of the movement phase you can even get them in a better position if alarielle moved full 16inch (in theory). 

I am always happy to spend those 200points extra, rather than being bound to a specific unit with the start of the game. 

However I also think 740 is a bit too much, based on the missing protection against MW no matter how good the healing is. 

A +1 to cast would also have been great, at least close to Wyldwoods. E.g. why can a warsong reventant cast a spells easier than her goodness 😄

 

[Mirage8112]

5 hours ago, Landohammer said:

You are clearly achieving success with Sylvaneth that no one else is so we are just never going to agree.

See here’s the thing, I’m not trying to get you to agree with me. If you don’t want to play Alarielle: then don’t. Maybe she just doesn’t fit your playstyle, or maybe you just don’t really feel like building your list around her. 
 

For whatever reason, your entitled to play your game as you see fit. But that doesn’t mean the unit is garbage just because you can’t find a place for it in your list.

 

5 hours ago, Landohammer said:

I occasionally eek out a positive record at events but winning real events with pure Sylvaneth is usually out of the question, at least for me. And every data tracking metric agrees with me on that. Maybe you are just an outlier? Do you have some of your event data you can show us?

You mean after year of COVID lockdowns, with all tournaments local and national being canceled and me refusing to fly since I had a new baby coming this last feb? 
 

Can’t say I have a lot of data that’s readily available here. If I had won my last game at Adepticon last time I went I would have placed 10th overall (got fairly ill and played really badly my last game). But again, that was a while ago and my plans to do Adepticon in 2020 and now 2021 were legit foiled.

But aside from that this is what I was talking about earlier. Say your doing well and nobody believes you. C'est la vie

5 hours ago, Landohammer said:

But here is the real kicker. Alarielle is a huge investment. I don't have the resources to screen her and hide her in my backfield where she isn't doing anything. And what units are fast enough to keep up with her to properly screen her? 

The real reason she gets shot/charged/killed is because she is usually flying around causing havoc and doing her job. If I need to baby sit her, then why bring her at all?

Bingo. This makes a lot of sense. Sounds like she doesn’t fit your playstyle. 

And tree revs do an excellent job at keeping up with her. They also make great screens. Woods can also be a good way to get support around her but they require a bit of foresight. Some games are won or lost solely on where WW are placed.

 

5 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Exalted Demons: 16 wounds casters with a good pool of wounds, saves, some abilities and some fighting: ~390

Kairos: 3 Cast monster wizard with fly: 400

Teclis: God tier flier/caster with lots going on: 660

She is essentially a greater demon on steroids in terms of overall performance.
…

Lets all remember there are characters in the game, such as Eltharion, Skarbrand, mounted terrorgeists, Son of Behemot and keeper of secrets that can perform at the same level as Alarielle in combat, for 200-300pts less.  

Based on the above it really seems you think Alarielle should be played as either a beatstick hero or a super-caster (which she is neither). The units your comparing her to are combat-focused hero’s, and the casters are top-tier casters in magic-themed armies. 
 

Niether of which neatly describe Sylvaneth as an army. While we obviously can do combat and casting, trying to out-combat Skarbrand is a fools errand. Alrielle just doesn’t measure up to elite combat-focused hero’s because that’s not really what her kit is for. Her point value reflects her army support abilities more than her combat/casting stats. If those two things are all you care about and ignore her support abilities then yeah: she’s going to look over-costed because your only playing with half her kit.

Look, I’m not trying to change your mind or dictate what you play. If you want to play a combat focused army and put all of your points into maximizing damage in unit-on-unit brawls then you should do that. I think I have a good enough understanding of your perspective and playstyle to understand where you’re coming from and why you don’t see her value. I don’t agree with you in the broader sense, but I don’t have any particular problem your style of play either. 

That being said, I would hope that you could understand the difference between “this unit doesn’t work for me”, and “this unit doesn’t work”. But perhaps that’s asking too much. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Mirage8112

[Walkirriox]

1 hour ago, Mirage8112 said:

Niether of which neatly describe Sylvaneth as an army. While we obviously can do combat and casting, trying to out-combat Skarbrand is a fools errand. Alrielle just doesn’t measure up to elite combat-focused hero’s because that’s not really what her kit is for. Her point value reflects her army support abilities more than her combat/casting stats. If those two things are all you care about and ignore her support abilities then yeah: she’s going to look over-costed because your only playing with half her kit.

I want to understand your point of view about her not being overcosted, I really want you to buy me on this because I would love to play this model every match I have and your insights are really helpful. 
So, if we remove her summoning she is 540p. Then we forget about her combat/casting stats which are not amazing. Then, what are those support abilities that justify her points? I can only see on her warscroll d3 healing area and a command ability which is OK. 
To me, she is kind of a “jack of all trades” character that can do a lot of things “meh” but can’t do anything better than noone (apart from autoheal, and that’s selfish for a Goddess of life xD)

Edited June 4, 2021 by Walkirriox

[Lanoss]

She’s a 3 cast wizard that knows the entire Lore - the Lore, of which is a very supportive Lore to buoy the army’s board control and regen. 
you may say that’s not worth her 540pts but then you have reliable damage in her spear and beetle, her retreat shoot & charge, her own unique spell and CA. 
IMO I think she should be valued closer to 480 so perhaps only time (GHB repointing) will tell lmao till then I’m happy to use her as is as I figured out how to play her in the last edition (she wasn’t insane but I found a way).  

[Tizianolol]

Guys im just curious how to play that version of allarielle.  To be honest i think we have to analyze new change compariring them to aos3 where we have already seen changes to monester and heroes. ( do you remember when people said Sephireth was overpower because he could destroy scenary pieces? He was builded for aos 3 and now we have seen that every monster can do that) 

Because of that I think Allarielle is not so mutch overcosted. 

I have another question about her. How we play this model? She got a good warscroll , she seems very good in combat and shooting expecially with buffs ( treesong seems pretty good with new ww mechanics). But she is a very good target for throne of vines too. The problem is if I cast the throne on her i cant move or I lose the bonus to cast. How do you think to play her?

[Havelocke]

1 minute ago, Tizianolol said:

How we play this model?

There has been, to put it lightly, quite a bit of discussion over the past few pages about this.

One option that some people have advocated is that she should be used as a skirmishing support piece, supporting your front lines with her ranged attack and spells, then closing in to pick off favorable targets while moving away from threats that might be able to burst her down.

Another option is to use her for an early game strike to try to pin your opponent in their deployment zone. If she can do a lot of damage to one of your opponent's offensive threats, the threat of her healing could encourage your opponent to over-commit to removing her, and delay their ability to move up the board.

I lean more towards the first option, because I think it gets the most value out of all parts of her warscroll. The alpha strike choice could still be a good strategy, though. Especially against slower armies.

[Mirage8112]

Weird triple post. Sorry

Edited June 5, 2021 by Mirage8112

[Mirage8112]

13 hours ago, Walkirriox said:

I want to understand your point of view about her not being overcosted, I really want you to buy me on this because I would love to play this model every match I have and your insights are really helpful. 
So, if we remove her summoning she is 540p. Then we forget about her combat/casting stats which are not amazing. Then, what are those support abilities that justify her points? I can only see on her warscroll d3 healing area and a command ability which is OK. 
To me, she is kind of a “jack of all trades” character that can do a lot of things “meh” but can’t do anything better than noone (apart from autoheal, and that’s selfish for a Goddess of life xD)

I’ve been thinking about this all day. Particularly how to explain why I think her warscroll could be really good if played in the right way. I (and some others) have pointed out that she is a support role hero, but I don’t think anybody so far has detailed how her kit works in the regard. On top of that, it’s hard to talk about something being “worth it’s points” or “overcosted” when their value isn’t measured by how many models they take off the table (like Skarbrand or Eltharion). 

There a few things we know about the new edition. Monsters and Hero’s get new abilities (all of which she can benefit from) and she will generate an extra CP at tech start of the game (on account of being a second general). The other thing we know is that board sizes are getting smaller (which is double edged sword, making her more threatening and also more vulnerable.)

Everything the game depends on synergy, and warscrolls do not exist in a vacuum. Basically AoS is a buff stacking game where bringing different unit have overlapping abilities that compliment or enhance a units ability to do something. Looking at Alarielle with a “cost to field” (her total points value minus the amount of points she can summon) of 540 points (or so) she’s only as good as the buffs you can stack on her or the buffs she can stack on other units. 

This is what I was talking about a few pages back regarding Durthu:

Edited June 5, 2021 by Mirage8112

[Mirage8112]

On 6/3/2021 at 1:30 AM, Mirage8112 said:

Durthu needs support to consistently put damage out as the game progresses, so there is an added cost at keeping him effective, at the very least he requires an 80pt supporting spellcaster to keep his health topped up so he can consistently swing for the sweet sweet 6 damage.

So while Durthu’s point cost is only 300, the actual cost to field him and keep him useful throughout the game is more like 380. Is that worth it? I think so. The combination isn’t too difficult to maintain, the risk of losing the second caster is pretty low, and the support hero also support other combats when shes not needed to shore up Durthu’s health.

Alarielle has roughly the same scenario going on, in that she like having three support casters (at 80pts apiece) always within range to cast. They don’t have a casting bonus, but to get that same effect of Durthu we’d have to pay 240 pts.

What sort of combinations can you pull off with 3 casts on single caster? Throne of vines, Verdant blessing (on a 5), and then vengeful skullroot (on a 4). Place the wood to hit 2 units and then the skullroot can do d6 mortal wounds to any unit it touches. It’s also rumored that predatory endless spells will move twice per turn now. 2d6 mortal wounds per turn on any unit you can touch is a good deal for a 40 pt endless spell. It would be hard to pull that combination off with 3 casters because you wouldn’t benefit from throne on vines on both casts, and even with the Warsong revenant you’d need to have him stationary for a turn and that’s not always feasible.   

Also, its not that she’s bad in combat, it’s that she won’t last multiple turns in combat. Her warscroll tells me that the first turns should be spent pushing the up the board with her in the back healing minor shooting/combat wounds on treelords and hunters: D3 healing with her passive and bringing back dead hunters for first turn or two. Then she should get stuck in combat mid to late game with skirmishes doing damage at range to support heroes with her shooting while looking for a target of oppertunity. 

Stacking buffs on her also makes for some serious combinations. Take her with an arch-rev in winterleaf. Pop an extra attack from the arch rev, her command ability, finest hour and titanic duel (providing your target is a monster.) Her attack with Talon with have 5 attacks, hit on 3’s, explode on sixes, wound on 2’s, reroll 1’s. Roll well and you can force your opponent to roll 6-7 saves. On a 4+ save rolling 3-4 dice for an instant kill is nearly a 50-50 shot. I would love to se a keeper taken off the board in a single around of combat without generating depravity points (since it doesn’t deal wounds it just slays the model). 2+ save got you down? There is always the frozen kernel for maximizing one turn of straight combat damage: 10 attacks hitting on 3’s (with titanic duel vs a monster), exploding on sixes, wounding on 2’s rr 1 with -2 rend is roughly 8 rend -2 damage 5 attacks. That’s 20 damage vscs 2+ save and 35 damage vs a 4+ save

There’s loads you can do with her. The real advantage is how flexible she is. She can nearly be nearly anywhere on the board (especially now that it’s smaller). She’s decent in combat (provided it doesn’t last multiple turns), decent in magic, does impact hits, should always be at or near full health (provided you don’t over-commit too early). She can summon several different type of units that can tank, deal damage, screen, a support hero, or a bunch of bodies for stealing objectives.

Her points reflect her ability to do all of the above when slotted into a list with other units. Overpriced and underpriced is relative to how many other things you can fit in the list to make that happen. If you can build a solid list around her, then she priced fairly. If you can’t, then she overpriced. If you can win with her and not need a portion of your list to win, then she’s underpriced.

I’ve seen variously the insinuation that she’s over costed by 120 points or so. Overpriced by 120 points doesn’t mean very much. What can I get for 120pts? A unit of dryads? A Wtych? Two units of spites to screen locally (since they’re pretty much stuck where you put them). Would any of those options make a difference between wining or losing the battle?  Not really. 

You can’t be reckless with her. But paired with the right unit she has an answer for just about anything I can think of provided you’re prepared. She’s a Swiss army hero who synergizes with just about every unit ion the book.  Tree-revs make a near perfect screen for her. Her passive healing and spellcasting makes hunters a fair bit more durable. 2 Treelords (1 in list, 1 summoned) make a frustrating screen as well, a 75% chance to disrupt the activation wars, a respectable amount of shooting (5 each 2+/3+ -1 and Alarielles 2+/2+ -2 spear) and quite healable with decent saves (all three of which will benefit from the new monster rules). She can feasibly put 2 WW on the board turn provided you can find a decent target for her spell.)

Generalists don’t beat specialists by trying to out-special them. You beat them by switching to playstyle to whatever they are weak against. Fighting a CC specialist? Hang back, shoot and pelt it with magic. Fighting something that crushes the magic phase? Force them to make a play for objectives, charge into a safe combat on the front line (like between two Treelords), Deal a few wounds, take a few wounds, heal the damage to Alarielle and your front line next phase, retreat over the combat, shoot and charge. Think your opponent is going to try to take the first turn and shoot her off the board? Deploy her on the flank out of range or off the board. Trying to pin her in? Heal, summon a wood and teleport away or retreat out of combat and shoot. Do what they can’t.  

I’ve always said that a good list has to compete in 4 phases of the game or dominate in 2.  She has decent spellcasting/command abilities, flying movement, shooting, impact hits on the charge and plenty of close combat damage. She has something to do in every phase and she’s juuust good enough that with buffs she can dominate those phases that your opponent can’t compete in.  She is more flexible than any other unit in the battletome.

So, do I think I can build a toolkit 2k list with the intention of making use of all of this? Yes. Do I think having an extra 120 points to play with will make or break my ability to pull those things off in game? Not really. Is she invincible? No. But do I think I can keep her alive long enough to do what she needs to do? Yes.

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Mirage8112

[keen]

On 6/5/2021 at 10:44 AM, Mirage8112 said:

I’ve seen variously the insinuation that she’s over costed by 120 points or so. Overpriced by 120 points doesn’t mean very much. What can I get for 120pts? A unit of dryads? A Wtych? Two units of spites to screen locally (since they’re pretty much stuck where you put them). Would any of those options make a difference between wining or losing the battle?  Not really. 

I think this a bit too simplified thinking. 

I agree, you might not get a great addition for the 120pts alone. But maybe if you can use the 120pts in combination with another ~100pts you just squeezed into your 2k list before for a unit you didn't really need. E.g. you could afford a unit of Kurnoths instead of 10 dryads or something similar. So it always depends on the full context.

[Abstract_duck]

22 hours ago, keen said:

I think this a bit too simplified thinking. 

I agree, you might not get a great addition for the 120pts alone. But maybe if you can use the 120pts in combination with another ~100pts you just squeezed into your 2k list before for a unit you didn't really need. E.g. you could afford a unit of Kurnoths instead of 10 dryads or something similar. So it always depends on the full context.

Sounds like a good reason to share some lists amongst each other.. I would be interested though!

To start, my gameplan for next time will be:

Gnarlroot

1x Alarielle

1x Warsong revenant (Planning to try the Warsong Bomb by hiding him in a central spot on the map, stacking a cast bonus with Chalice (anybody know the average increase in casting rolls?), +1 Balewind (and+6'' range), +2 Throne, +1 standard bonus for what I believe should be quite a decent cast for damage across the board, staying quite reliable because of the casting bonusses and only getting higher with the Throne stacks). Quite sure to get it off if you: Cast Throne for the +2 (with a Chalice +1 bonus in the forest), Balewind with the Chalice +3 from forest and throne, signature spell for the +4 with chalice. My guess would be that you are netting 4-5 mortal wounds in a 15'' range on turn 1, forcing the opponent to commit units to a unit protected by a forest - (and if you add some tree revs or kurnoths (by deploying them off-board until it's your turn)) that's regenerating.

1x Branchwraith (for the summons, ofcourse)

30x Dryad

5x Tree Rev

5x Tree Rev

 

6x Kurnoth Scythes 

-

Balewind Vortex

Spiteswarm Hive 

1995 points - which might net a triumph if lucky without sacrificing too much points 

 

 

By The way.. Anyone else feeling like Dead for innumerable ages should've been Alarielle's regenerative ability?

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Abstract_duck

[Havelocke]

Ouch. Just when I was getting excited about the possibility of Spite Revenants being decent hammer units in Drycha's new battalion.

Pretty sure this basically forces our battleline to fight in two ranks at ten or more models. This isn't a huge deal for Dryads, since they have a 2" reach, or Tree Revenants, since you usually only want units of five anyways. Also not a huge deal if you're just taking small Spite Revenant units to get outcasts.

Barring a change to their warscrolls, or unless there's something I'm not seeing, large blocks of Revenants are basically out for this edition. Thoughts?

[Kaylethia]

Many people will run their bigger units in blobs, so two ranks and spreading out to surround them can be a valid tactic. And you don't always need to be attacking with every model. I'm thinking that a >----------< kind of formation is going to be the new screening formation.

Just my first thoughts. 

[Havelocke]

5 minutes ago, Kaylethia said:

I'm thinking that a >----------< kind of formation is going to be the new screening formation.

You're right, actually. I was thinking you needed a full two ranks, for some reason. I must need more coffee.

[Kaylethia]

9 minutes ago, Havelocke said:

You're right, actually. I was thinking you needed a full two ranks, for some reason. I must need more coffee.

Maybe I need some. This is fine until you get into a fight, as coherency is checked at the end of a turn and once set up.

I'll have to put some models on the table, but even on 32mm bases, you should be able to offset the second rank and keep the models far enough apart, that both ranks can fight, and losing models isn't an issue.

[Mirage8112]

On 6/6/2021 at 5:29 AM, keen said:

I think this a bit too simplified thinking. 

I agree, you might not get a great addition for the 120pts alone. But maybe if you can use the 120pts in combination with another ~100pts you just squeezed into your 2k list before for a unit you didn't really need. E.g. you could afford a unit of Kurnoths instead of 10 dryads or something similar. So it always depends on the full context.

I’ve been writing some practice lists with Alarielle, and I’m finding that I don’t really have any superfluous units I’ve tried to “squeeze in”. Having 740 points tied up in heroes means it’s unlikely you’ll take more than 1-2 additional hero’s (right now I’m looking at the arch-rev and a wraith), a big block of hunters, a treelord, and the rest of the list is filled with MSU T-revs.

I do have a block of 10 dryads at the outset, but I’m not committed to that idea yet. Having the wrath means its pretty likely I’ll be able to get the summoning engine up and running first turn once I get throne up (the list has enough chaff that I can lose a unit or two first turn and still replace it second turn).

So right now, if I had an an extra 140 points to play with, what would I cut? I need chaff and charge blockers to feed to combat specialists and zone out flyers more than I need another group of hunters. I might be able to trade the Treelord for a TLA, but a TLA is a bigger target than a Treelord, and I’m not sure I really need the extra cast when Alarielle is a 3 cast wizard. Plus, If I need an an extra block of hunters mid match, I bring them on with Alarielle, if I need an extra monster I summon a Treelord. The one thing I can’t get on the table are units of 5 tree revs or minimum blocks of dryads, so those really need to be in the list more than something I can summon when I need it. 

[Kaylethia]

I used dryads, as I had them on my hobby table.

Conga lines are getting compressed, but otherwise we're going to be fine.

@Mirage8112 Are you thinking about using the Arch-Rev just to give hunters rerolls, or using the CA wherever it looks like you might need an extra push?

[Havelocke]

Just now, Kaylethia said:

I'll have to put some models on the table, but even on 32mm bases, you should be able to offset the second rank and keep the models far enough apart, that both ranks can fight, and losing models isn't an issue.

Yup just measured it out myself and came to the same conclusion. Seems I knee-jerked a bit.

 

[Mirage8112]

1 hour ago, Kaylethia said:

I'm thinking that a >----------< kind of formation is going to be the new screening formation.

Yeah but where would you remove casualties from in a formation like that? If it loses its end cap, it going to lose models down to a 5 man unit size like a fuse. 

Generally speaking it seems to me like GW is trying to push large blocks of troops out of the meta. With the smaller table size, units are going to be harder to move around without bumping into terrain and screens. With the new coherency rules you wont be able to daisy chain models anymore and screen large area of the board off with a single line on models. If effect, Gw has reduced the area a large block of troops can screen by 25-30 depending on base size%. 

This also effects hunters/killer units who have base sizes larger than 25mm and a reach of 1”, as they will have to compress their formation or risk losing models to coherency checks. 

Also, thankfully, we are largely unaffected by these changes. Dryads have a 2” reach and we usually compress formations anyway to stay within WW’s. Hunters with scythes can attack at 2”, and hunters with swords are best in 3”s anyway. And as @Havelockehas already pointed out revenants (both types) are usually run in 5’s.

Granted Drycha’s battalion suffers slightly, but if the rumors pan out faction battalions are going to be open/narrative play only anyway.

 

42 minutes ago, Kaylethia said:

Are you thinking about using the Arch-Rev just to give hunters rerolls, or using the CA wherever it looks like you might need an extra push?

   
The arch rev is the only hero that can really keep up with Alarielle. His command ability works over the whole board (if your positioning is good) which means I can can have her follow Alarielle around and still give my hunter block the extra attack. If Alarielle needs an extra combat push or to put more pressure in her area of the board, she can summon hunters and the arch-rev will give them RR’s of 1. I find that that the big block of 6 scythe hunters don’t need as much combat support in a group of 6 (especially in winterleaf) so the group of 3 will benefit more from have the arch-rev around. 

It also helps having the frozen kernel on a highly mobile hero in case I really need to kill something. Smaller board size means her movement is actually better in 3.0 than 2.0 and everything will be closer. It’s almost like gaining 4” of range up the board and 12” of range across it. 12” of move (with a run if I have to) + 18” range on the frozen kernel means I can supercharge a unit 30” away. That’s pretty much anywhere on a 44” x 60” board unless they touching opposite long edges.

 

42 minutes ago, Kaylethia said:

Conga lines are getting compressed, but otherwise we're going to be fine.

      
How far is the spacing on the front of that stagger? It looks like for every model you stagger you lose something like 1/4 inch of frontage. That means every 5 models will lose 1 models worth of frontage on units greater than 5.
 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Mirage8112