AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Pennydude]

Something we need to keep in mind is that Alarielle was pointed for AoS 3. We don’t know exactly what GeeDub is planning but it seems like heroes, monsters, and probably generals will gain bonus things and have more actions. That would surely play into the points hike. 

She also got buffed in almost every aspect too. If everything is going up in points, especially with those god-like models, she should be just fine.

[martinwolf]

So on the new Awakened Wyldwood warscroll it says the wood has to be more than 3" away from terrain and objectives in addition to whatever an ability or spell says, that means all spells/abilities got worse and harder to place woods with them because a lot of them were 1" previously. It's in general more likely to find a place for a single tree, but it got harder to get a 2 or classic 3 piece wood down. Don't get me started on the old plates. I have tried one game and the 3" rule for everything now really was a huge pain.

Any thoughts?

[Pennydude]

7 minutes ago, martinwolf said:

So on the new Awakened Wyldwood warscroll it says the wood has to be more than 3" away from terrain and objectives in addition to whatever an ability or spell says, that means all spells/abilities got worse and harder to place woods with them because a lot of them were 1" previously. It's in general more likely to find a place for a single tree, but it got harder to get a 2 or classic 3 piece wood down. Don't get me started on the old plates. I have tried one game and the 3" rule for everything now really was a huge pain.

Any thoughts?

The only new restrictions is now they have to be 3” from objectives. Per the 2020 GHB, all our woods had to be 3” away from terrain already so that part isn’t new.

[Havelocke]

49 minutes ago, martinwolf said:

Any thoughts?

Overall, the woods feel a little bit stronger to me.

Like @Pennydude said, the 3" from objectives is the only new piece of those placement restrictions. If you were using these rules before, the ability to reliably get woods down all game long is a huge upgrade. We lost the ability to make big woods out of 4, 5, or 6 models, but placement feels like a huge upgrade on the whole.

The line of sight buff is big, but I don't think it's as huge as some people think it is. The new warscroll requires 3" of wyldwood to block LOS, rather than 1". When you combine that with the addition of a 3" objective buffer, it's not possible to have models sitting on an objective while out of LOS. I think those rules are a net wash.

Finally, you've got the changes to the damage feature. You gained the ability to make the charge phase damage more reliable, but you lost the hero phase opportunity. The math works out to the same amount of damage, on average, if you're getting both of the old rolls in versus a buffed roll on the new scroll. There's a lower ceiling, but it's easier to get the buff than it was to get both rolls off on the old scroll. Overall, I call this one a wash as well.

 

So I don't think it's a straight upgrade across the board, but I'd certainly rather play with the new scroll than the old one.

 

 

 

[martinwolf]

1 hour ago, Pennydude said:

The only new restrictions is now they have to be 3” from objectives. Per the 2020 GHB, all our woods had to be 3” away from terrain already so that part isn’t new.

ah, you are right, haven't played Sylvaneth for so long...  

[Havelocke]

A thought occurred to me while writing my post about wyldwoods a moment ago. While the general consensus is that the new Warsong Revenant is overcosted and I have to agree, I think the model, along with the new wyldwood rules, might breathe new life into the classic 'Branchwych Bomb.'

• When combined with a balewind and the spellsinger command trait, a warsong bomb is dealing mortals to every enemy unit in a 21" bubble.
   
• The warsong has three casts on the vortex, which means they can be stacking TOV every turn and spitting out their AOE, while still having a leftover cast for healing, mystic shield, or additional damage.
   
• The new wyldwood rules still block LOS, so the warsong can remain safely tucked inside a wyldwood the entire time.
   
• The Warsong spell deals twice as much damage as the old Branchwych spell used to.
   
• Compared to the branchwych, the Warsong is much more durable. Albeit for a lot more points. The build even has a free artefact slot, which could be used to increase survivability

 

You could also ditch Spellsinger to run the build in gnarlroot so that you get the chalice. I think it's better with spellsinger, though.

 

[Grimmlock619]

I'd like to share my thoughts.

I've been playing Sylvaneth for the past 2.5 years with some ups and downs. So here it goes..

The Warsong Revanent, though a bit overcooked at 275, still definitely has a place in our army. We have been lacking on another multi caster and taking all the spells will definitely bring more utility to our force. He's like a little Swiss army knife. He can heal, buff, do some decent damage. As a General in Gnarlroot, he can potentially heal D6+2d3 wounds around him. And he's a great replacement for a Branchwych bomb. We also don't know how bravery might be in 3.0 so we can see potential with bravery bombs.

Wyldwoods.. wow. That was probably the best change we got. The footprints will not be as big now, but the effect and placement is so much better. We now have the option to use a single Cresent shape, which the smallest one is 5"L×2.5"W, in the tightest spaces. It won't block line of sight in most instances due to the new rules but it makes Treesong a very valuable spell. And also gives more teleport options. And now with doing MW on a 4+ with a wiz/endless spell near, it's will happen more often. And now we can see out of them, which is very powerful. Bow hunters may have a comeback with that. 

Now Alarielle, The Thigh Queen. I love her new warscroll. Healing 2D6 to herself and D3 around her in each herophase is great! Yeah, she will go down fairly quickly with no FNP but it will take some focusing, which will give your other key pieces room to work. In Gnarlroot, she will be an absolute beast. Her spear is now much more reliable and at a fixed 6 damage. Combined with her spell, she has the ability to pop support characters or bracket big monsters quiet easily. Now with horns hitting better, she has become an absolute beast. Her talon is interesting, i do wish it had rend but if you get 3 or 4 attacks throughout, you have a very good chance to kill a big monster. Of course if you blindly throw her into a bad situation, she will crumble. In my opinion, she is a back-mid field support hero. She will dominate control on our side of the board. Keep her back till late 2, mid 3 and then bring her up to clean up where she will be best utilized. At 740, she is a bit much, but definitely not unplayable.

We also are unsure about what 3.0 will completely look like. I definitely see use now as a B- army as opposed to D. The change to Wyldwoods really helped. Yeah, it'll take a bit of finesse to win still, but that's what I love about this army. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Grimmlock619

[Mirage8112]

12 hours ago, 5kaven5lave said:

It’s a good point, so obviously you’re screening, but 6 eels, Sentinels, Morathi bow snakes could pin cushion her or blast her in pretty short order regardless of the quality of your screens because of range / fly etc. Not much fun taking a god to have to hide her in the back corner because she’s squishy. Super happy to eat my words but I’m not convinced. 

I sat down last night and worked out roughly how many sentinel shots it would take to bring her down using their 18” range profile. Roughly 50. That’s 700 points required to take her down in a single round of shooting. Most of that damage was MW using their improved sun metal ability (using their spell boosting mortal wounds on a 5+) but since max unit size is 20, they would need to successfully cast it 3 times (spread over 3 units) without it being unbound all within 18” of Alarielle. With their long range profile it would probably take another unit of 10 to do the job in one sitting. The Snek ladies would need similar numbers to inflict the same amount of damage. Roughly 30. Less bodies, but actually more costly clocking in at 840 pts

What does that tell us? That 700-900 points of shooting models can remove a 540 point model (after summoning) in one round of shooting? That doesn’t seem squishy to me, that seems pretty damn reasonable. 

And, again, this comes down to generalship. if your opponent drops literally half their points into shooting and you can’t find a place on the board to deploy Alarielle where she wont be immediately targeted, then you need to keep her off the board first turn, and leave only a couple units you wouldn’t mind losing. The new hero is a good bet to deploy at the start (in a WW) thanks to the 4++, -1 to hit (look out sir), hiding in your free WW with a Chalice of Nectar or Luneth’s Lamp (for the unbind bonus) to prevent them from doing MW on a 5+. 

Just because a model can’t take on literally twice it’s points and survive doesn’t mean it’s underpowered; it means it’s balanced.

 

5 hours ago, Enoby said:

I think their point was that they'd have preferred her to be cheaper and be able to save the points on something else - more that she didn't feel 140 points better.

 
So you’re suggesting that if she had been 140 pts cheaper you wouldn’t have won 16-2? what can you get for 140pts? Not any of the heavy hitters like hunters, a treelord, durthu, drycha or anything like that. You could get 5 t-revs, or 5 spites, 10 dryads or maybe a lower level hero and an endless spell. 

I hardly think a brachwytch and a spiteswarm hive would have made all that much of a difference. Your opponent couldn’t get a single spell out anyway and had their whole army obliterated by turn 2. I highly doubt Alarielle at 600pts would have tipped the scales back in her favor.   

 

5 hours ago, Enoby said:

I think the reason they ran her in was because I had pushed all of my killy units up to their side and only had some objective capturing chaff on my side, which Alarialle should have been able to deal with (she was in less danger on my side of the board, if not for Slothful Stupor). That's not to say my opponent played her perfectly (or even well), but it wasn't as bad as just pushing her forward into a murder wall and hoping. Alarialle had summoned a treelord to try deal with the injured KoS and Dexcessa, and sent herself to deal with the other weaker half of my army. 

I’m not trying to drag your opponent but it really sounds like she made a bunch of mistakes during deployment, and you just rolled over her like a wave. There were probably tactical mistakes made during her turns as well. For example, charging Alarielle up the board while the rest of the army gets slaughtered just isn’t a good plan, esp considering she’s a super-powered support unit with nothing to support (and nothing to support her). Sounds to me like she didn’t know what to do and thought “well the game is pretty much already over, I’ve lost my entire army, let’s see if she can kill anything before I give up.”

And again, she only participated in one round of combat out of 4 (since you ended turn 2). And as you say, the rolls were terrible. And again, her being cheaper probably wouldn’t have helped her rolls; nor would it have stopped you from face-rolling her all over the board. 
    
 How experienced is she with the army? Is she a frequent opponent for you? How does she usually do? 

[a74xhx]

Minor thought : everything else in Sylvaneth has points in multiple of 10s. So, unless you are taking two of them, the Warsong Rev is essentially 280 points.

[Grimmlock619]

3 minutes ago, a74xhx said:

Minor thought : everything else in Sylvaneth has points in multiple of 10s. So, unless you are taking two of them, the Warsong Rev is essentially 280 points.

This leads me to believe that there will probably be a full points overhaul for 3.0.  Either that or giving people more chances to getting a triumph. 

[Emissary]

1 hour ago, Grimmlock619 said:

This leads me to believe that there will probably be a full points overhaul for 3.0.  Either that or giving people more chances to getting a triumph. 

I am hoping that 3.0 launches like 40k 9th edition with the small tourney booklet.  That thing is great in that you dont have to drag around the books.

[Abstract_duck]

19 hours ago, Havelocke said:

A thought occurred to me while writing my post about wyldwoods a moment ago. While the general consensus is that the new Warsong Revenant is overcosted and I have to agree, I think the model, along with the new wyldwood rules, might breathe new life into the classic 'Branchwych Bomb.'

• When combined with a balewind and the spellsinger command trait, a warsong bomb is dealing mortals to every enemy unit in a 21" bubble.
   
• The warsong has three casts on the vortex, which means they can be stacking TOV every turn and spitting out their AOE, while still having a leftover cast for healing, mystic shield, or additional damage.
   
• The new wyldwood rules still block LOS, so the warsong can remain safely tucked inside a wyldwood the entire time.
   
• The Warsong spell deals twice as much damage as the old Branchwych spell used to.
   
• Compared to the branchwych, the Warsong is much more durable. Albeit for a lot more points. The build even has a free artefact slot, which could be used to increase survivability

 

You could also ditch Spellsinger to run the build in gnarlroot so that you get the chalice. I think it's better with spellsinger, though.

 

I hadn't considered that Balewind still works for it. Makes me consider trying to use Balewind & spellportal with the guy, spamming mortal wounds while staying behind your frontlines. I like the idea of teleporting to a central forest too, though - forcing lots of units into your forest if they want to quickly finish the guy.. Meaning lots of mortal wounds because the forests proc on a 4+ since he's a wizard

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Abstract_duck

[mojojojo101]

 

Do we think Baelwind is going to survive into AoS 3.0? They haven't sold the model for quite a while now.

Had a play with some lists last night and feel  a bit more positive than I had at the weekend.

Think I'm going to stick to my pretty close variation on Harvestboon with Forest Folk, but swap out Drycha for the Warsong Revenant and a Balewind.

Probably not the most competitive way to play the army but I feel like it's the best way to get real value out of Durthu who is my favourite model in the range.

[Frowny]

19 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

That 700-900 points of shooting models can remove a 540 point model (after summoning) in one round of shooting? That doesn’t seem squishy to me, that seems pretty damn reasonable. 

I think this same data actually proves the opposite point. Carrying that same ratio  forward, It implies that 2000 pts of archers would remove about 1000 pts of sylvaneth in one round from 30 inches away with no line of sight. Take that that to turn 2 and they have tabled you without breaking a sweat. It might be a problem with the archers, but I think is also a problem with allarielle. Those same archers only do 200pts of damage to dryad's or so, and about 250 pts to hunters. It's true that if you can't kill her, she heals quite a few wounds though, so maybe there is something to that.

She does seem better the longer the game goes as there will be fewer and fewer threats that can 1 shot her, and the she heals up.

[Havelocke]

6 hours ago, Abstract_duck said:

I hadn't considered that Balewind still works for it. Makes me consider trying to use Balewind & spellportal with the guy, spamming mortal wounds while staying behind your frontlines.

Umbral spellportal is a great addition! I think the ability to project the bubble would make it much more viable to drop spellsinger in order to run gnarlroot.

4 hours ago, mojojojo101 said:

Do we think Baelwind is going to survive into AoS 3.0? They haven't sold the model for quite a while now.

I think it's like a 65/35, in favor of getting squatted. It's been a culprit in a few broken combos over the years, and it's an OOP model, like you said. On the other hand, I think it's a warscroll that has a lot of fans among list nerds and combo builders, and its current iteration hasn't really been a problem outside of Kroak, who is no longer eligible to use it.

[Pennydude]

I don’t think it’s the end of the world if the Balewind Vortex goes away.  Even if it stays, going gladeless just for Spellsinger seems bad. I’d rather just take Gnarlroot. I’m really curious to see the new core battalions.

[a74xhx]

Anyone see a user for both Alarielle and the warsong in the same list? Add 2 wraiths, and that's a lot of spells, and not much room for decent melee.

With Alarielle taking so many points, is it worth dropping taking a battalion? Been that long since I played the trees, I struggle to remember exactly how essential an extra artefact+CP is.

[Mirage8112]

12 hours ago, Frowny said:

I think this same data actually proves the opposite point. Carrying that same ratio  forward, It implies that 2000 pts of archers would remove about 1000 pts of sylvaneth in one round from 30 inches away with no line of sight. Take that that to turn 2 and they have tabled you without breaking a sweat.

Well, not exactly.  

That comparison of 50 sentinels to Alarielle makes a bunch of assumptions that probably wouldn’t ever come together in an actual game. The numbers I ran assumed they are using their 18” profile, not their 30” profile, and it’s a big ask to get 50 sentinels all within 18” all at the same time, get all their spells off (for the increased chance of mortal wounds which does most of the damage). Using their 30” profile means you need to add another unit or two to get the same damage output, and then your looking at another 10-20 models and using 980 points to kill 540: not a good trade off. 

Also the problem here is target saturation and our healing abilities. This is why you need 50 sentinels to kill Alarielle, because you have to do it in one turn (double turn excluded) if you don’t, then she heals in her hero phase and she’s within 18” and can charge in her charge phase. Lunineth can’t resurrect models once they been killed and Alarielle is back up to where she was at the start of the game, while the Lumineth player’s damage output is heavily crippled. 

Even aside from that, ranged models are designed to concentrate fire and wipe single units off the board, because if they don’t, those units will close the gap and slaughter them in CC. Alarielle has 16 wounds, which makes her an ideal target, while a big block of Drayds in a wood have the same save, -1 to hit, and almost double the amount of wounds at 1/2 the price.

But again thats why I said that the math shows that to be balanced match up, because if Alarielle gets first turn and manages to land the charge, then she would absolutely wipe out 1-2 units and then the sentinels can’t overcome her healing. 

 

12 hours ago, Frowny said:

Those same archers only do 200pts of damage to dryad's or so, and about 250 pts to hunters. It's true that if you can't kill her, she heals quite a few wounds though, so maybe there is something to that.

She does seem better the longer the game goes as there will be fewer and fewer threats that can 1 shot her, and the she heals up.

It’s true! Thats why you need some level of target saturation. The Lumnineth player may decide to focus fire and take Alarielle off the board in a single round of shooting, but they are drastically less likely to do that if they are staring down 2 groups of hunters and block of dryads (who work out to be roughly the same number of points as Alarielle) who are threatening a charge next turn.    

 

[Abstract_duck]

On 5/30/2021 at 6:53 PM, martinwolf said:

So on the new Awakened Wyldwood warscroll it says the wood has to be more than 3" away from terrain and objectives in addition to whatever an ability or spell says, that means all spells/abilities got worse and harder to place woods with them because a lot of them were 1" previously. It's in general more likely to find a place for a single tree, but it got harder to get a 2 or classic 3 piece wood down. Don't get me started on the old plates. I have tried one game and the 3" rule for everything now really was a huge pain.

Any thoughts?

we had a short discussion a few pages back (179 I think) - basically the 3'' has always been the requirement as per GHB 2020. But the way it was phrased was quite convoluted, so most people assumed 1''. 

[Arnied3]

Has anyone seen the new GW video on 8 new things? Monsters will have general rules to make them more monstrous.... might be a nice new buff to the treelords. Predatory spells now in both hero phases. 

Also some changes that make it sound like 40k - lots of command points to use in the enemy turn and core battalions. 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Arnied3
add vid link

[Walkirriox]

1 hour ago, Arnied3 said:

Has anyone seen the new GW video on 8 new things? Monsters will have general rules to make them more monstrous.... might be a nice new buff to the treelords. Predatory spells now in both hero phases. 

Also some changes that make it sound like 40k - lots of command points to use in the enemy turn and core battalions. 

I hope these changes benefit all the armies and not only the ones that are already in a good spot. We will see how the balance is affected.

[Enoby]

On 5/30/2021 at 8:50 PM, Mirage8112 said:

So you’re suggesting that if she had been 140 pts cheaper you wouldn’t have won 16-2? what can you get for 140pts? Not any of the heavy hitters like hunters, a treelord, durthu, drycha or anything like that. You could get 5 t-revs, or 5 spites, 10 dryads or maybe a lower level hero and an endless spell. 

I'm uncertain - I've never played Sylvaneth myself so I don't know what else would have been good to spend those extra points on. Perhaps more screening? That said, I have no clue if it would have made a difference - likely not.

On 5/30/2021 at 8:50 PM, Mirage8112 said:

I’m not trying to drag your opponent but it really sounds like she made a bunch of mistakes during deployment, and you just rolled over her like a wave. There were probably tactical mistakes made during her turns as well. For example, charging Alarielle up the board while the rest of the army gets slaughtered just isn’t a good plan, esp considering she’s a super-powered support unit with nothing to support (and nothing to support her). Sounds to me like she didn’t know what to do and thought “well the game is pretty much already over, I’ve lost my entire army, let’s see if she can kill anything before I give up.”

And again, she only participated in one round of combat out of 4 (since you ended turn 2). And as you say, the rolls were terrible. And again, her being cheaper probably wouldn’t have helped her rolls; nor would it have stopped you from face-rolling her all over the board. 
    
 How experienced is she with the army? Is she a frequent opponent for you? How does she usually do? 

(Sorry, just as an aside I should make clear my opponent was male - I wasn't very clear, but when I said "she" I was talking about Alarrialle  )

As for experience, I know they used to play a lot of Sylvaneth in AoS 1 when general damage was lower and many armies didn't have battletomes. When the 2nd book came out, they said they were very disappointed in it and moved on to Warclans. As such, during AoS 2 they must have only played like 3 or so games with Sylvaneth that I know of. 

I am going to try to get in another game with them at some point soon; hopefully luck will be more in their favour. I do think they generally have a negative opinion of Alarielle's rules (now and before) - which may contribute to them making moves in frustration (such as, as you said, driving her forward and killing her). 

They are a frequent opponent to me, though not with Sylvaneth. They tend to use Tzeentch and Warclans much more frequently, which I'd say they were more skilled in. I pretty much exclusively use Slaanesh so they are used to my army and how I play (though this has changed around recently)  

[Havelocke]

21 hours ago, a74xhx said:

Anyone see a user for both Alarielle and the warsong in the same list? Add 2 wraiths, and that's a lot of spells, and not much room for decent melee.

I don't think you're going to see it much, except at very high points values. I think both Alarielle and the Warsong occupy similar roles in a list, as generalist mid-board support pieces. They're both also on the expensive side, so if you include both you're left without as many units to support.

I also think that Alarielle and the Warsong will both want to be casting Throne of Vines quite often, which creates some tension when they're both on the field.

21 hours ago, a74xhx said:

With Alarielle taking so many points, is it worth dropping taking a battalion? Been that long since I played the trees, I struggle to remember exactly how essential an extra artefact+CP is.

A lot of Sylvaneth lists like to have access to an extra artefact because it really helps our casters. Branchwraiths with a spiritsong stave & throne of vines are quite common, as is the combo of vesperal gem on any wizard with verdurous harmony. These casting combos might not be as necessary in an Alarielle list with a power caster. Beyond those, the most common artefact is probably the acorn of the ages, which is especially popular in lists which don't include a treelord ancient.

The extra CP is very relevant in Dreadwood lists, which often run a battalion and an extra command point to start with three. Outside of that glade, it's nice but not necessary.

The final reason to run battalions in Sylvaneth lists is to reduce the number of drops in your army, which many Sylvaneth lists really care about. Getting a wyldwood down in a prime midboard location often requires going first, so we really want to have that option. That said, the new wyldwood rules might make change that dynamic. A list that runs Alarielle will likely be light on drops anyways, so this probably isn't as relevant.

 

[Kaylethia]

I didn't see much talk about the new Drycha battallion, so here goes:

I think getting rend on a 3+/3+ profile can work well for us, and I'm going to try it out in my next game. As it's probably a 1k game, I'm thinking 2x20 spites, drycha, the battallion, an arch-rev and a branchwraith. Winterleaf glade, because the only thing funnier than 20 spites putting out 61 attacks that explode on sixes is 20 spites putting out 61 (81 with the Archie buff) attacks that explode on sixes twice.

Play it a bit more safe, have Drycha summon wyldwoods, 'wraith uses ToV and summons dryads to tank hits, spites (hopefully) kill things dead. Keep a CP or two in reserve for battleshock, and try to keep the spites away from harm.

[Pennydude]

2 minutes ago, Kaylethia said:

I didn't see much talk about the new Drycha battallion, so here goes:

I don't think it's worth putting too much effort into Drycha's Spitegrove with it looking like warscroll battalions as we know it disappearing.  If they end up staying in 3.0, I think it's worth testing for sure.