AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[IndigoGirls]

18 hours ago, Aezeal said:

That leaves the question which things are worth dropping hunters for (lets take full hunters and min spites as the baseline):

-TLA?

-wraith?

-Archie?

-Drycha?

-A large unit of dryads

-outcast batallion

I think all of them are contenders but I'm not quite sure on what is optimal.

I think what is optimal is largely based on the situation. That said, we should analyze what kurnoth hunters are good at and what they are bad at. For this review I will not incorporate bow hunters as they differ greatly from the melee variants.

Pros: durable, medium damage, consistent, self sufficient

Cons: slow, low model count

We can shore up their weaknesses, lean into their strengths, or a little bit of both.

TLA - improves their movement (via woods), improves their durability on the charge (command ability). Costs ~1.25 hunter units. Nice way to get them to move around better and kurnoths in terrain are much stronger than kurnoths in the open.

Wraith - improves movement (can cast woods or spiteswarm, etc.) OR improves the bodies issue (summon dryads). Costs ~0.5 hunter units. Flexible army addition, doesn't do a ton for kurnoths but can help with the bodies issue or their movement (or both with multiple casts).

Archie - improves kurnoth consistency (re-roll 1s), improves max damage output (command ability). Costs 0.5 hunter units. Nice piece to force multiple kurnoths or other units. However, spending 1 cp to add 3 attacks to a unit is pretty underwhelming. Archie encourages larger blocks of kurnoths to make the most of the CA.

Drycha - improves movement (can cast woods or spiteswarm). Costs ~1.5 hunter units. Drycha is going to be a replacement for kurnoths. She is a flexible unit (ranged damage, melee damage, caster, fast). Strictly speaking I prefer 1.5 hunter units to Drycha; unless you build around Drycha.

Dryads - solves the bodies issue. Costs 0.5 - ~1.5 hunter units. Relatively durable and cost effecient. Strictly going to replace kurnoths. If you need to contest objectives you'll probably be using these (or some form of the more expensive revs).

Outcast battalion - will get you more CPs, another artifact, and lower your drops. No direct impact on your hunters but CPs and artifacts can boost them in interesting ways.

None of what I wrote above explains how you replace hunters and I think that's important. It's great to compare units but what matters even more is your game plan. Your game plan typically starts with the glade you choose and that immediately changes how hunters behave. Example, if you take Dreadwood your hunters movement problem is solved. If you take Gnarlroot you improve their durability. To give a meaningful answer on this theoretical exercise we need more info. 'Optimal' shifts based on your plan, the scenario, and your opponents list.

What I will say is this. Kurnoth hunters are my rock. They do basically everything I want and my lists often run 9 of them (block of 9, block of 6 and 3, or 3 blocks of 3). That said I have 0 lists running running more than 12 of these guys. In my experience spending 1k points on hunters starts to reveal weaknesses in my lists and limits my ability to produce meaningful list synergies.

I'm not sure if this post is helpful at all but these are my thoughts. I also think you slept on Alarielle as a replacement but maybe I'm in the minority.

[Trevelyan]

21 hours ago, Kiekeboe said:

The question now becomes: can you win battles and/or keep objectives under your control? Are 2 Treelords, 2 Ancients, and 6 Kurnoths enough of a combat force while your dryads/tree revenants grab and hold objectives?

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I’ve run a very similar list in the past with one fewer Treelord (I only own one), and swapping a few other things about. But the core concept - Gnarlroot, LotC with Gem and Chalice on the TLA with Harmony and Regrowth respectively, and a unit of six Scythes as heavy hitters - was the same. I can’t remember the exact list I had, but I vaguely recall that I managed to squeeze Drycha in there too.

It definitely works. You may not need Archie as using a TLA to support the Hunters provides the same rerolls, and there is a lot of value in using the Gnarlroot command ability To further reinforce them, rather than focusing on pure offence. The TLA can stand directly behind the Hunters and still potentially apply his Stomp, and Sweeping Blows likewise adds to the damage output. 

I’ll check and edit my exact list back in, but it is somewhere back in this thread and the last time I used it, the Hunters and TLA took Archaon to the face, survived and did  a number on Him in return. That’s probably enough punch to be getting on with. 

[Trevelyan]

56 minutes ago, IndigoGirls said:

None of what I wrote above explains how you replace hunters and I think that's important. It's great to compare units but what matters even more is your game plan.

This is the key. 

You win games of AoS by scoring VPs based on the objectives for a given scenario. While combat is an essential part of the game plan - you need to stop enemy units from scoring, defend your own units, and sometimes have explicit kill conditions for victory - it is important to remember that AoS is not “Fantasy Killfest 2020”. 

You need as many Hunters as necessary to fill the combat function requirement in your list without undermining all the other things you need to consider. 

It doesn’t matter that 200 points of Hunters is much more effective in a fight than 200 points of Tree Revenants. You shouldn’t be taking Tree Revenants as a primary combat unit. But neither should you overlook the vastly greater mobility (with commensurate objective grabbing and interference potential) that the Revenants bring to your list.

Build a list to win the objective game you are playing, not the abstract combat simulator that is over represented on the internet. 

[Kiekeboe]

8 minutes ago, Trevelyan said:

It definitely works. You may not need Archie as using a TLA to support the Hunters provides the same rerolls, and there is a lot of value in using the Gnarlroot command ability To further reinforce them, rather than focusing on pure offence. The TLA can stand directly behind the Hunters and still potentially apply his Stomp, and Sweeping Blows likewise adds to the damage output. 

Sweet, great to hear I was doubting the Arch-Revenant but decided to leave her in because the tournament I'll be playing has Places of Arcane power as one of the battleplans (points can only be taken by heroes) so I wanted a high movement hero in there, plus the command ability works wonders on 6 scythes. I didn't think about the Gnarlroot CA at all, that's a good one to keep in mind, thanks!

I'll see if I can dig up some more about LotC earlier in this thread.

[Sleepa]

5 hours ago, Trevelyan said:

I’ve run a very similar list in the past with one fewer Treelord (I only own one), and swapping a few other things about. But the core concept - Gnarlroot, LotC with Gem and Chalice on the TLA with Harmony and Regrowth respectively, and a unit of six Scythes as heavy hitters - was the same. I can’t remember the exact list I had, but I vaguely recall that I managed to squeeze Drycha in there too.

I’ll check and edit my exact list back in, but it is somewhere back in this thread and the last time I used it, the Hunters and TLA took Archaon to the face, survived and did  a number on Him in return. That’s probably enough punch to be getting on with. 

I was considering a LoTC Gnarlroot list with Drycha, so I'd be very curious to see what your current revision looks like @Trevelyan.

My latest draft of the list was:
Leaders
TLA - 260 (General), Chalice, Regrowth
TLA - 260 Gem, Harmony
Drycha - 320 Probably Regrowth as well

Battleline
5x Tree Revs - 80
5x Tree Revs - 80
5x Spite Revs - 60
30x Dryads - 270
Other
6x Scythe Hunters - 400
1x Treelord - 180

Battalions
Lords of the Clan - 60

Endless Spells
Quicksilver Swords - 30

Total points - 2000

Not sure if I should swap the swords and spites for a Branchwraith. I really like taking at least one big block of dryads, as they do a fantastic job of screening Drycha, and can be really hard to displace if I can plant some trees or make to my designated place of power. Maybe given how good shooting is these days, I should swap the Swords for a Prismatic Palisade. I figured it wouldn't be necessary since Wyldwoods can do a reasonable job of screening non-flying shooting. This iteration of my list only has 121 wounds, which is a bit light. It's definitely banking on Harmony and the healing putting in work. Would probably fold like wet paper to anything that can erase whole units in a single attack.

[Aezeal]

7 hours ago, IndigoGirls said:

I think what is optimal is largely based on the situation. That said, we should analyze what kurnoth hunters are good at and what they are bad at. For this review I will not incorporate bow hunters as they differ greatly from the melee variants.

Pros: durable, medium damage, consistent, self sufficient

Cons: slow, low model count

We can shore up their weaknesses, lean into their strengths, or a little bit of both.

TLA - improves their movement (via woods), improves their durability on the charge (command ability). Costs ~1.25 hunter units. Nice way to get them to move around better and kurnoths in terrain are much stronger than kurnoths in the open.

Wraith - improves movement (can cast woods or spiteswarm, etc.) OR improves the bodies issue (summon dryads). Costs ~0.5 hunter units. Flexible army addition, doesn't do a ton for kurnoths but can help with the bodies issue or their movement (or both with multiple casts).

Archie - improves kurnoth consistency (re-roll 1s), improves max damage output (command ability). Costs 0.5 hunter units. Nice piece to force multiple kurnoths or other units. However, spending 1 cp to add 3 attacks to a unit is pretty underwhelming. Archie encourages larger blocks of kurnoths to make the most of the CA.

Drycha - improves movement (can cast woods or spiteswarm). Costs ~1.5 hunter units. Drycha is going to be a replacement for kurnoths. She is a flexible unit (ranged damage, melee damage, caster, fast). Strictly speaking I prefer 1.5 hunter units to Drycha; unless you build around Drycha.

Dryads - solves the bodies issue. Costs 0.5 - ~1.5 hunter units. Relatively durable and cost effecient. Strictly going to replace kurnoths. If you need to contest objectives you'll probably be using these (or some form of the more expensive revs).

Outcast battalion - will get you more CPs, another artifact, and lower your drops. No direct impact on your hunters but CPs and artifacts can boost them in interesting ways.

None of what I wrote above explains how you replace hunters and I think that's important. It's great to compare units but what matters even more is your game plan. Your game plan typically starts with the glade you choose and that immediately changes how hunters behave. Example, if you take Dreadwood your hunters movement problem is solved. If you take Gnarlroot you improve their durability. To give a meaningful answer on this theoretical exercise we need more info. 'Optimal' shifts based on your plan, the scenario, and your opponents list.

What I will say is this. Kurnoth hunters are my rock. They do basically everything I want and my lists often run 9 of them (block of 9, block of 6 and 3, or 3 blocks of 3). That said I have 0 lists running running more than 12 of these guys. In my experience spending 1k points on hunters starts to reveal weaknesses in my lists and limits my ability to produce meaningful list synergies.

I'm not sure if this post is helpful at all but these are my thoughts. I also think you slept on Alarielle as a replacement but maybe I'm in the minority.

About Alarielle: I've played her in most of my games and I'm not that happy with her so I left her out of the equation :D.

Yesterday I played this 1500 list (2 battleline) : I had 10 dryads, 5 spites, drycha, TLA, archie, 6 scythes and 3 bows (and palisade and wyrm). Opponent played CoS with lots of phoenixguard. We played focal points.

It was my first game with a unit of 6 scythe hunters (mostly been played scythes, swords in 3's) yesterday. I gave my opponent first turn and he confidentely moved his big unit of 20 PG backed by the ice phoenix to the middle objective.... I charged, +1 attack CP and winterleaf artefact double hit.... totally destroyed the unit (significant overkill I might add) despite -1 to wound, save and invulnerable save.

Review of some of the options mentioned before based on that game:

The arch rev was nice.. especially since I needed a carrier of the frozen kernel anyway so he's a real force multiplier in winterleaf - other character options usually don't want to hang that close to the hunters. And his movement helps keeping them in range of whatever he wants. Even if the hunters are going to charge - his high move mean he can pass them in the movement phase and then the hunters can pass him when charging. Less easily done with slower characters. Basicly a 100% include IMHO. 

I was happy with Drycha (as always, I nearly always use her), she might his slightly less hard than 1,5 unit of hunters but her speed and strong shooting do give her options which complement hunters (character/small unit sniping, objective claiming or threatening.  For me she's a 100% include currently (in my Alarielle hating period at least) and trying to be a bit more objective I'd say a 80% include.. having a dispel is always nice as is regrowth (which she generally has). Maybe if you have a lot of shooting and movement options you'd prefer to take her out for more hunters.. but I think she's very useful.

I was less happy with the TLA. Getting the spells cast and not unbound is a real issue (as all magic.. I think magic is too weak in AoS atm especially when comparing too say.. Khorne priests who also have easy options to make it much more reliable  to mention get multiple prayers each turn). The TLA didn't do much except put the 2nd forest down (which .. again.. as often... I didn't use to teleport.. though it was nice to have the option if the game wasn't so one sided in my favour). His shooting never got through, he got attacked by the phoenix and didnt' do much in combat either. He cast the wyrm once which did 1 damage to the phoenix and healed him for 3 (which was nice, when I have a few points leftover I guess I'll take that spell again since it's cheap).  Didn't use the palisade at all.

 

PS I think I should've dropped the palisade and taken tree revenants instead of spite so I could threaten his objectives better. That would be the first step in improving the list, not switching hunters in or out

Edited March 4, 2020 by Aezeal

[Pennydude]

I recently ran a Winterleaf list against Big Waaagh! in Shifting Objectives and was able to easily defeat him after a concede in round 3.  List was:

Durthu
Durthu (Ghyrstrike)
B-Wraith (Regrowth)
B-Wraith (Throne)
Arch-Rev (General, Frozen Kernal)
6 Scythes
3 Bows
3 Bows
3x5 Spite Rev
Outcast Battalion
Spiteswarm Hive
1990pts

Opponent had first turn and killed the regular Durthu on turn one after a buffed up unit of Boyz got teleported, made the charge, and I failed the stomp.  The 6 Bows picked off his General (Wurrgog Prophet), Spitehive got the 6 Scythes and GS Durthu into combat in the middle of the board and killed a bunch.  One unit of Spite Revs killed 2 Boyz (out of 10) and got 3 more to run due to the battalion! I got priority in Turn 2 and killed his Megaboss on Maw Krusha with 5 buffed Scythes (Call to Battle, Frozen Kernal), Spite Revs retreated onto the point on the left, move other Spites onto the right objective to outnumber the pigs.  Bows picked off more pigs to help that side.  

I know that Kurnoth Bow Hunters are not looked at a ton on here but they should never be underestimated.  They were the MVP due to general sniping and just board control with their threat range.  They don't necessarily need the Heartwood artefact to make them good (it makes them insane though), just the re-roll 1s is enough.   At this point, I don't know if I'd take a list that doesn't include at least 6 Bows.

[Trevelyan]

29 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

I was less happy with the TLA. Getting the spells cast and not unbound is a real issue

That’s why Gnarlroot is an under appreciated gem of a Glade. Between the Chalice of Nectar and the inevitable Vesperal Gem you can reliably cast several spells. As an added bonus, the Glade also helps TLA combat accuracy. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Trevelyan

[Trevelyan]

1 hour ago, Sleepa said:

I was considering a LoTC Gnarlroot list with Drycha, so I'd be very curious to see what your current revision looks like @Trevelyan.

It’s not a million miles away from your list. Simple, unformatted version:

Drycha; Regrowth 

TLA: General, Vesperal Gem, Harmony

TLA: Chalice, Regrowth

Branchwraith: Throne

Treelord

6x Scythe Hunters

5x Tree Revenants 

5x Tree Revenants 

20x Dryads

LotC

Gladewurm

Spiteswarm Hive

 

[IndigoGirls]

13 hours ago, Aezeal said:

I was less happy with the TLA. Getting the spells cast and not unbound is a real issue (as all magic.. I think magic is too weak in AoS atm especially when comparing too say.. Khorne priests who also have easy options to make it much more reliable  to mention get multiple prayers each turn). The TLA didn't do much except put the 2nd forest down (which .. again.. as often... I didn't use to teleport.. though it was nice to have the option if the game wasn't so one sided in my favour). His shooting never got through, he got attacked by the phoenix and didnt' do much in combat either. He cast the wyrm once which did 1 damage to the phoenix and healed him for 3 (which was nice, when I have a few points leftover I guess I'll take that spell again since it's cheap).  Didn't use the palisade at all.

PS I think I should've dropped the palisade and taken tree revenants instead of spite so I could threaten his objectives better. That would be the first step in improving the list, not switching hunters in or out

Two things here, I don't know if a TLA belongs in every list BUT it's one of my favorite Sylvaneth units. I think the real problem with the TLA is you expect it to do damage because it's this huge tree. I expect my TLA to do 0 damage a turn. Any damage he puts out is the cherry on top. What the TLA is to me is 1 - guaranteed woods 2 - an anvil/distraction 3 - a caster 4 - sometimes a useful CA (mystic shield on himself/Dryads/Drycha/charging kurnoths is useful usually once a game).

For me where the TLA shines is throwing him at objective holding hordes before they reach an objective. For instance throwing him into 40 stabbas or 30 Dryads. Without rend those blobs will do almost no damage to him (with re-roll 1s up). He doesn't do much damage back but keeping them off objectives is the name of the game and there he shines. Even more choppy units that don't have rend (horrors) aren't super scary when you're a 3+ reroll 1s. I take him in Dreadwood so he's also -1 to wound. Maybe drop him from your list or try using him as a great anvil against certain units. Also if you give him Regrowth he becomes rather self sufficient.

Also I 100% agree the tree revs would do more good for you in your list then Palisades + spites.

[IndigoGirls]

16 hours ago, Pennydude said:

I know that Kurnoth Bow Hunters are not looked at a ton on here but they should never be underestimated.  They were the MVP due to general sniping and just board control with their threat range.  They don't necessarily need the Heartwood artefact to make them good (it makes them insane though), just the re-roll 1s is enough.   At this point, I don't know if I'd take a list that doesn't include at least 6 Bows.

I used bow hunters in my old book list and they've only gotten better so this does not surprise me. I'm also not surprised they were an MVP unit for you. However my problems with bow hunters are...

1. their consistency, aka extremely variable

2. once they're locked into combat their effectiveness is greatly reduced

Of the above points, 1 is the deal breaker for me. Points of failure include 2 attacks per model (very low) hitting on 3s, mostly 4s, or 5s (based on lookout sir and leader differences). You will miss a lot of shots. Wounds on 3s is fine, -1 rend is fantastic, but d3 damage is not where I want to be. Given how few shots will actually wound, you can easily roll 1 damage. Many times you won't connect and even if you do the damage is unpredictable.

Sadly bow hunters don't put out a lot of damage so they aren't great for deleting units or removing screens (unless they're gunning down a small 1 wound squad). They don't receive buffs well (other than re roll 1s, which doesn't increase max output and due to the low number of attacks doesn't re roll that many dice so it doesn't help even their damage curve much either).

BUT when the stars align they feel like absolute beasts because they have high max potential. I'm happy to see people use them because they are my favorite kurnoth sculpts but Im still not sold on them outside of skewed lists in team tournaments. In friendly games, I use them. At a 5 game tournament, Id leave them on the shelf (edit: or just bring them and realize certain games they'll fail you. Honestly just have fun. Obnoxious attitude in my original post).

Edited March 5, 2020 by IndigoGirls
Bad reasoning

[Kantchill]

WARNING! WALL OF TEXT! 

Sorry for any mistakes, English isn't my native language. 

Just sharing my expierence after playing in the Dutch Grand Tournament last weekend where I placed 12th (3 wins, 2 losses) with my Sylvaneth. I had a great weekend and all five of my opponents where great guys. We had a total of 40 players, including some known names like Ben Savva attending from the UK (with a few others from SLL) and Philipp Kartaev from Russia (I didn't face them tho). Full placement and all list here: CLICK. 

My list performed above avarage, and better then I anticipated beforehand! I was aiming to reach at least place 20 or higher. I was running the following list: 

Spirith of Durthu (General – Command Trait: My Hearth is Ice)
Arch-Revenant (Artefact: Frozen Kernel)
Drycha Hamadreth (Regrowth)
Branchwych (Verdurous Harmony)
Branchwraith (Throne of Vines)

20 Dryads 
20 Spite-Revenants 
5 Tree-Revenants 

6 Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes
3 Kurnoth Hunters with Greatswords 

Balewind Vortex 

 

I played Durthu and the Kurnoth units for the main damage output, the Dryads and Spites where bubblewrap/objective holders and I kept the unit of Tree-Revenants in the back to teleport on objectives in the opponents zone.

I choose the Branchwych over a second Wraith, because she moved up with the Kurnoths to summon them back after dying and her mortal wound spell is more usefull on the frontline instead of summoning IMO.

Drycha was my one-trick-pony, because we played Hidden Agenda's as secondaries. I choose Sacrifice (4 victory points) every game if my opponent had strong heroes or a lot of monsters and made sure my opponent could only charge Drycha turn 1 with them. As I had 10 drops, I never got to choose for first turn, which made it harder for my opponent to make a descision. Either let Drycha shoot and melee his hero/monster and let me summon woods and get good placement, or only kill Drycha and block some placement for me but give me a free 4 victory points. This worked really well! 

 

Game 1 - My first game I played against Ogor Mawtribes (LIST), 3 stonehorns and 10 Mournfangs. I studied his list and the scenario (Battle for the Pass) before the tournament. His lack of models (even though they count as 2 or 10) and my screening capabilities, as well as the far edge territory, should have made this a relative easy match-up for me. I practiced a few games against my friends Ogors and played the scenario a few times as well and it was in my favor most of the times. But unfortunatly, the worst thing ever happened... 

He gave me first turn. In my hero phase, none of my spells went of. In my movement phase, I only added 1 or 2 inch to all my run rolls, and I didn't make it to any of the middle objectives. Shooting phase, no damage at all (not even Mortal Wounds from Drycha). Charge phase, I failed all the remaining charges I had. I only scored 1 point for Defend and 1 point for my own objective... 

His first turn, he easily took the centre objectives and also charged my units which where now set up nicely to get wrecked. His Stonehorns crippled my units with their Mortal Wounds on the charge, and finished them off in the combat phase. I only managed to do 1 single wound on a Mournfang, that's it. He did kill Drycha with one of his big guys tho, which gave me 4 Victory Points. 

Of course, he won the roll-off for turn 2 and took the double turn. At this point it was pretty much game, and I tried to salvage as many Victory Points as I could for my tournament ranking. I eventually got wiped bottom turn 3 (after going first), scoring 9 against 52. 

 

Game 2 - Because I lost so insanely hard because I was unlucky the first round (I can say that, right?), I got matched with a player that was way below my level. Not to talk down on him, it was a great guy and we had a lot of fun. I even thought him a few tricks and tactics and we had a coffee afterwards to talk about the game because we finished pretty quickly. 

He played a Maggotkin army (LIST) and the scenario was Total Commitment, which didn't bother both of us because we didn't have anything in reserve. Both armies formed a classic battleline and clashed in the middle of the battlefield. I got first turn and teleported the Tree-Revenants on his back objective, because he misplaced his Sorcerer by 1 or 2 inches. He also took the risk of not putting models on his other objective, thinking he could easily block me from getting there. I charged my Drycha into his Great Unclean One, hoping to score Sacrifice again, but he only managed to do 3 wounds to her. On the other side of the board my Spite-Revenants blocked two of his Blightking units by charging them and Durthu and the Scythe Hunters (with Frozen Kernel) got a charge of and murdered the third unit of Blightkings, the Blightlords and the Nurglings in one go. 

In his first turn he kept the Blightkings in combat, so he didn't manage to grab his other objective or take back the one I allready had. The Great Unclean one did 4 wounds to Drycha, still not killing her. Durthu took a few wounds from piling Blightkings, but the Scythe Hunters striked back and killed them all. My Spites got murdered tho, because he rolled a few exploding sixes, granting him D6 hits. That ability is insane! 

I won roll-off for turn two, teleported my Tree-Revenants to the other objective. I let Drycha fight last, but his GUO didn't do ANY damage to her, and then when she attacked him he died... No Sacrifice for me this game. All the remaining Blightkings and the unit of Plaguebearers got killed in combat, and it was basicly game because he didn't have many models left. We counted the points and I won the game scoring 47 against 0. 

 

Game 3 - I got matched against one of the TO's on stand-by because apperently we started out with 41 players on Saturday (One of my friends had to drop out on Sunday unfortunatly because his little kid got ill). He played a nasty FEC army (LIST) with two kings on Terrorgheist and 12 Crypt Flayers.  We were playing Scorched Earth. 

He gave me first turn which I played very defensively. It gave me the opportunity to block the entire mid-field and hold on to the objectives on my side of the middle. During this match I was really happy I had the two big units of chaff. I ran both units on the objectives and placed them in a giant spiral shape, leaving no room inside the spiral to end his moves outside 3" and  also no place for the giant Therrorgheist bases in case of charges. I kept the Tree-Revenants and heroes in the back to block his summoning, and Drycha was of course running up to the middle of the board, trying to score Sacrifice. 

During his first turn my spirals blocked his entire army from moving up and the only viable target to charge was Drycha. He went in with both of his Terrorgheists and rolled really, really bad, leaving her alive with only 3 wounds left... Drycha attacked one of them and rolled insanly well, doing lot's of Mortal Wounds. His general was left with only 5 wounds! Insane! He didn't do any summons, because I left no gaps for him to position them well. 

I won the roll-off for turn 2, and prepared a counter attack. Both Scythe and Sword Hunters teleported to a newly formed Wyldwood, ready to charge some Flayer units and Durthu set himself up for an 8" charge towards both Terrorgheists. Unfortunatly both Kurnoth units failed their charge, but Durthu rolled a massive 12" on his charge and went in running. He stomped the general Terrorgheist, making him strike last, and then eviscerated the non-general Terrorgheist, doing and amazing 24 wounds on him. I didn't declare the Impaling Tallon, so it was Drycha's turn to strike! She almost killed the general, leaving him with 2 wounds left barely alive, but it was his turn to strike now. He choose the easy target, Drycha, killing her easily this time even though he was wounded badly, also gifting my 4 Victory Points and an unwounded Durthu. Thanks! I burned one of the middle objectives on my side, just in case. 

In his turn 2 he fell back with his general, and quickly used all the summons he had remaining putting another unit of Flayers and a unit of 20 Ghouls on the board. Lucky for me, I killed the other Terrorgheist before he could get his summon off. The Flayer units now screamed and then charged my Dryads, Spites and the unit of Scythe hunters, doing massive damage. I lost all the Spites, 12 Dryads and 2 Scythe Hunters. He burned the two middle objectives on his side, and also one on my side for double points. 

Turn 3 and 4 I won both roll-offs and went first. We both had or backfields locked up thight and where fighting in the middle of the board. Untill the end of turn 4 it remained a tie, but bottom turn 4 he did a movement trick with his Flayers. He moved 20" up the board and seized one of my backfield objectives, immediately burning it. I didn't see it comming, and now my opponent took the lead. I needed to grab one of his backfield objectives and burn it as well, to tie on objective points again and win the game on secondary objectives. 

Final turn, I won the roll-off again! I moved up with my remaining Scythe hunters and teleported my Tree-revenants towards one of his backfield objectives. Only one of them had to make the charge and kill his hero on that objective to deny Ancient Heirlooms for 4 extra points.  Unfortunatly, the Tree-revs failed the charge and the Kurnoths had a really low charge roll, even after re-roll, and I didn't grab the objective and didn't kill the hero with the artefact. His general (now with only 1 wound remaining) was trying to hide, but my Arch-Revenant charged him head on and managed to do exactly 1 wound! 

Eventually, he barely won the game (because I failed both charges and didn't grab the final objective and kill his hero) and I scored 26 against 33. Super exciting game, but to bad I lost in the end. 
 

Game 4 - On Sunday for my first game I got matched against the wierdest Cities of Sigmar army I have ever seen (LIST). Living City with Durthu & Drycha, some Duardin, some Aelves and some Stormcast. We played Focal Points, and I tried a tricky set-up with a Wyldwood in the far left corner of my deployment zone with Durthu inside. 

He took first turn and lucky for me, my opponent fell for it! He walked up to board edge near my Wyldwood with both his Durthu and Drycha against my Durthu. I placed the model in a way that he couldn't shoot and due to the limitations of the Wyldwood (I use the old Citadel Wood plates with impassible terrain) there was no room for them to charge me straight through. He had to walk around for a 12" charge. Unfortunatly he still managed to charge his Drycha into my Durthu, but didn't get the second charge off. Durthu stood his ground and managed to leave Drycha with only 4 wounds remaining while he still had 9. On the other side of the board a massive unit of Aelven archers walked up to board, and shot 41 arrows into my Sword Hunters, which died a horrible dead. His Gyrocopter was the only model left on the objective and he scored bonus points for holding both side objectives, as well as the center objective and the one in his deployment zone, gaining a major advantage on me. 

My first turn didn't go well. I failed all my spells and missed a charge against the Sisters of the Watch. I retook two objectives tho and Durthu absolutley nailed it. He stomped the enemy Drycha and then killed her. The opponent also left me a nice empty place all the way in the corner of his territory for my Tree-Revenants to teleport to, scoring me Overrun (a unit wholly within each table quarter). He didn't bother to move up and charge them the entire game, because I could just teleport away if he got to close, so I scored Overrun for free every turn during this game. 

The opponent won the rol-off for second turn as well, and charged his Evocators in my Dryads (they got deleted...) and his Durthu in my Durthu. I managed to get a stomp on Durthu, and struck first almost killing him instantly! Unfortunatly his sword only did D6 damage because he was damaged, doing 10 wounds on the enemy Durthu. I got really lucky when he struck me, because he did zero damage on my Durthu! In my turn 2 I moved some units up the board, but didn't make any charges. 

I won the roll-off for turn 3 and took the double turn. Game changer! I managed to get Regrowth of on Durthu healing him back up to full, the Scythe hunters charged and murdered the Evocators on the central objective and I even got a charge of on a freshly summoned unit of Dryads. I now had control over 3 of the 5 objectives. In his turn 3 he tried to move up with both his units of Ironbreakers and the Sisters of the Watch. He didn't charge me but took the objectives with numbers. 

Turn 4 I won the roll-off again an oblitered most of his forces. He only had half a unit of Dwarfs left and a Knight-Incantor. He still managed to deny me control over 2 objectives, scoring him some more points. 

Turn 5 I went first again, and took control over all 5 objectives. In his turn he managed to kill my Tree-revenants, reclaiming 1 objective. He also had Retake as Hidden Agenda, which scored him 4 bonus Victory Points throughout the match, which made it a close call in the end. 

I ended up winning 30 against 27. 

 

Game 5 - I got matched against another Ogor army (LIST), piloted by one of my friends and club mate. The one winning this match would end up getting the highest score of our club (we attended with 5 people). For this final round we had to play the challenging Better Part of Valour battleplan. 

We might be good friends, but that didn't make use soft for this match. It was a heated battle from the roll-off for deployment to the final battleround. We know eachothers armies well and even practiced for the GT against eachother, which actually made this battle one of the hardest and most challanging for us both! 

He had to choose who got first turn, and he knew my Sacrifice Drycha trick. But I made the most tight deployment I ever did in a game of Age of Sigmar. My entire backfield was blocked for his Huntmaster and Frost Sabres, all my objectives where blocked and the ONLY model in range for him to get a charge on was Drycha, the rest of my army was just .5" from his maximum threat range. He had to choose, killing only Drycha and don't do anything else turn 1, or let Drycha shoot up one of his Stonehorns with Mortal Wounds and give me the space for Wyldwoods and good counter-movements against him. 

He still decided to go first, and killed Drycha before she could do anything. But 4 Victory Points for me before doing anything! He moved up his entire army, except two small units of Frost Sabres and his Slaugthermaster who defended his objectives gainst my teleporting Tree-revs.

In my turn one, I had perfect positioning to charge his stonehorns. I charged the unit of Scythes in one of them and a teleported Durthu in the other. I also ran a unit of 20 Dryads across the other side of the board, trying to grab one of his objectives to burn in the second battleround if I went first. Unfortunatly Durthu didn't get his stomp, so I had to choose which stonehorn I would fight first. I went with Durthu to go first and activated my Frozen Kernel on the Scythe Hunters in case I lost a few of them. Durthu massacred the Stonehorn doing a massive 30 wounds (Max output... Damn) which he couldn't save. But his other Stonehorn was mad for revenge, and did 26 damage back to my unit of Kurtnoths, killing all but the Huntmaster. This was a blow to the face for me, but the lonely Huntermaster with double attacks still managed to do 5 (!!!) wounds against the Stonehorn. The enemy survived tho, and had one little toe on the objective in case he won the roll-off for turn 2... 

My opponent won the roll-off for turn 2, and counter charged with a big unit of Gluttons against my Durthu. I couldn't get a stomp of and he easily killed Durthu. The Huntermaster made a noble attempt to kill the giant Stonehorn, but didn't do any wounds this time. He then got stomped to dead by the beast. My opponent burned the objective in my zone, as well as his own objective which my Dryads tried to reach. 

In my second turn I started building a castle on my two remaining objectives. I didn't get my spells of and ran the unit of Dryads back to my own territory. Not much else I could do, ending my turn. 

Fortunatly, I won the roll-off for turn 3. This time I got my spells off and made a Wyldwood for the Sword Hunters to teleport to his central objective. The Tree-revs also teleported, to his top objective. I backed up a little more onto my own bottom objective (burning the middle one) so he could never reach it with his Stonehorn and Gluttons. I killed the models on his objectives and immidiatly burned them. There was now only 1 objective remaining, guarded by three ranks of Dryads/Spites (each 3,5" apart) where he could never crunch through within the remaining two turns (even if he did, I would burn the objective for 4 Victory Points in round 4 instead of 8 Victory Points in round 5). 

We calculated the scores and shook hands. I won the game scoring 19 against 13, giving him 4 extra Victory Points for Ancient Heirlooms because we didn't play it out. 

 

Some pictures attached! With myself on the left during Game 4 where my opponent found out he couldn't charge through my forest, lol. 

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Kantchill
spelling

[Pennydude]

6 hours ago, IndigoGirls said:

I used bow hunters in my old book list and they've only gotten better so this does not surprise me. I'm also not surprised they were an MVP unit for you. However my problems with bow hunters are...

1. their consistency, aka extremely variable

2. once they're locked into combat their effectiveness is greatly reduced

Of the above points, 1 is the deal breaker for me. Points of failure include 2 attacks per model (very low) hitting on 3s, mostly 4s, or 5s (based on lookout sir and leader differences). You will miss a lot of shots. Wounds on 3s is fine, -1 rend is fantastic, but d3 damage is not where I want to be. Given how few shots will actually wound, you can easily roll 1 damage. Many times you won't connect and even if you do the damage is unpredictable.

Sadly bow hunters don't put out a lot of damage so they aren't great for deleting units or removing screens (unless they're gunning down a small 1 wound squad). They don't receive buffs well (other than re roll 1s, which doesn't increase max output and due to the low number of attacks doesn't re roll that many dice so it doesn't help even their damage curve much either).

BUT when the stars align they feel like absolute beasts because they have high max potential. I'm happy to see people use them because they are my favorite kurnoth sculpts but Im still not sold on them outside of skewed lists in team tournaments. In friendly games, I use them. At a 5 game tournament, Id leave them on the shelf (edit: or just bring them and realize certain games they'll fail you. Honestly just have fun. Obnoxious attitude in my original post).

I completely understand that hitting on 4s (5s with Look Out) isn't the greatest.  I acknowledge the fact that their damage output can be swingy but my argument is more about the threat of their range.  Having a unit or two with a 35" threat range and re-rolling 1s to hit will give your opponent something to think about.  If they decide to get something in their face, I'm fine with that because that unit isn't capping points or killing more important models.  They may not move heroes up to give bonuses.  If they have a big, nasty monster on the field, you can put some shots into it to knock it down a bracket or two before engaging it in melee. 

I've had to run Bows onto objectives for model count and while they won't kill anything in melee, they are still Kurnoth Hunters with a 4+ rerolling save and 5 wounds each.  They will tie up a smaller unit or two for quite some time.  

I'm not saying that everyone should be bringing them in every single list.  I will say the vast majority of my list going forward will start with 2x3 Bows but not all of them will.  Kurnoth Bows still bring something to the table and should not be forgotten.  

I own 9 Bows, 6 Scythes, and 6 Swords so I'm not limited on my options.  All three versions have performed very well for me.

[Xil]

Guys,

I really need help vs Cities of Sigmar. 

The list contains Handgunners, Crossbowmen, 4 Mages on foot and SCE Mage, Hurricanum, Sequitors, and as endless spells Soulscream Bridge, Gnashing Maws, Geminis, Comet and Spell Portal.

Endless Spells are always cast as empowered.

 

Ideas?

Edited March 6, 2020 by Xil

[Landohammer]

1 hour ago, Xil said:

Guys,

I really need help vs Cities of Sigmar. 

The list contains Handgunners, Crossbowmen, 4 Mages on foot and SCE Mage, Hurricanum, Sequitors, and as endless spells Soulscream Bridge, Gnashing Maws, Geminis, Comet and Spell Portal.

Endless Spells are always cast as empowered.

 

Ideas?

Your best bet vs a shooty/casty Cities list is to take Dreadwood and Spiteswarm, and bring a battalion. Use your extra artefact to give your Branchwraith/wych the Stave, so they have two casts.

Basically the plan is to cast thrones, cast Spiteswarm, and give your Hunters +3 to charge. Then teleport them with the Dreadwood teleport.

You will then have a 6 inch charge into anything that isn't screened, and you can reroll the charge with Envoys of the Everqueen. 

Assuming you make the charge you will be wrecking his lines. 

Rinse and repeat every turn.

Works every time, (unless you fail the rerollable 6 like I do )

 

 

 

[Xil]

46 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Your best bet vs a shooty/casty Cities list is to take Dreadwood and Spiteswarm, and bring a battalion. Use your extra artefact to give your Branchwraith/wych the Stave, so they have two casts.

Basically the plan is to cast thrones, cast Spiteswarm, and give your Hunters +3 to charge. Then teleport them with the Dreadwood teleport.

You will then have a 6 inch charge into anything that isn't screened, and you can reroll the charge with Envoys of the Everqueen. 

Assuming you make the charge you will be wrecking his lines. 

Rinse and repeat every turn.

Works every time, (unless you fail the rerollable 6 like I do )

 

 

 

Sounds good. But what if I fail Spiteswarm or he uses his automatic ban once a game?  If he knows he will just ban the swarm and I get stranded in the open?! 

[Sleepa]

2 hours ago, Xil said:

The list contains Handgunners, Crossbowmen, 4 Mages on foot and SCE Mage, Hurricanum, Sequitors, and as endless spells Soulscream Bridge, Gnashing Maws, Geminis, Comet and Spell Portal.

You could run Gnarlroot,  take Prismatic Palisade and try to get as many Wyldwoods as possible summoned in front of your opponent's gun-lines and casters. take advantage of the LoS restrictions from the Wyldwoods, and their "Roused by Wrath" rules to potentially punish them for casting.

If you park a TLA toward the middle of the map IN A WYLDWOOD, you could try to stack Throne on it every turn to guarantee your Wood drops or its unique spell. Two stacks of Throne plus the +1 cast Stave, or the Gnarlroot Chalice, would give you a pretty indomitable caster. 

[Xil]

Just now, Sleepa said:

You could run Gnarlroot,  take Prismatic Palisade and try to get as many Wyldwoods as possible summoned in front of your opponent's gun-lines and casters. take advantage of the LoS restrictions from the Wyldwoods, and their "Roused by Wrath" rules to potentially punish them for casting.

If you park a TLA toward the middle of the map IN A WYLDWOOD, you could try to stack Throne on it every turn to guarantee your Wood drops or its unique spell. Two stacks of Throne plus the +1 cast Stave, or the Gnarlroot Chalice, would give you a pretty indomitable caster. 

Was thinking about something similar first. The mass AoE spells are bypassing the Los tho. But it's something I plan to play around. Also I think I will make use of the reserves if I can't get first turn. 

 

@Landohammer

Do you have a list to suggest? Was trying to put something together but never was happy with the result. 

I tried Forest Folk Battalion and a TLA as core. Then I am not sure if I should go for Free Spirits Battalion. Or if I should go for Hunters without Battalion and include Drycha to thin down the Handgunners to mitigate that 'overwatch fire'. 

[ArkanautDadmiral]

Hi Guys, I'm starting an escalation league and there's a few people taking Sylvaneth. What can i expect to come up against in a 750 point list?

[Sleepa]

35 minutes ago, ArmyOfGrodd said:

Hi Guys, I'm starting an escalation league and there's a few people taking Sylvaneth. What can i expect to come up against in a 750 point list?

At 750 points? 

Expect minimal battleline, probably 3 x 5 spite revs in Outcast battalion. Might see one brick of 20 dryads plus 2 units of 5 Tree Revs for the objective grabbing
Probably a safe bet they bring at least one Branchwraith, so you'll probably see Dryad summons
Odds are they will take 3-6 Kurnoths as their Hammer, might support them with an Arch Revenant.

Hey weird question, but is your escalation league in Canada? I just joined one as well!

[ArkanautDadmiral]

59 minutes ago, Sleepa said:

At 750 points? 

Expect minimal battleline, probably 3 x 5 spite revs in Outcast battalion. Might see one brick of 20 dryads plus 2 units of 5 Tree Revs for the objective grabbing
Probably a safe bet they bring at least one Branchwraith, so you'll probably see Dryad summons
Odds are they will take 3-6 Kurnoths as their Hammer, might support them with an Arch Revenant.

Hey weird question, but is your escalation league in Canada? I just joined one as well!

Thanks for the help! 750 points is only 2 Battleline so are they likely to drop that and the battalion to fit more Kurnoth?

No it's in the UK.

[Xil]

OK, I put two list together @Landohammer and @Sleepa@Sleepa and all others who care.

 

Both lists are Dreadwood. 

First one is a low drop list. Probably going first and disrupt the enemy in the first round already. 

++ **Pitched Battle** 2,000 (Order - Sylvaneth) [1,970pts] ++

+ Leader +

Arch-Revenant [100pts]

Treelord Ancient [260pts]: 5. Verdurous Harmony

+ Battalion +

Battalion: Forest Folk [520pts]
. Branchwraith: 1. Throne of Vines
. Dryads: 10 Dryads
. Dryads: 10 Dryads
. Dryads: 10 Dryads

Battalion: Free Spirits [1,040pts]
. Kurnoth Hunters: 3 Kurnoth Hunters, Kurnoth Greatbow
. Kurnoth Hunters: 3 Kurnoth Hunters, Kurnoth Scythe
. Kurnoth Hunters: 3 Kurnoth Hunters, Kurnoth Scythe
. Spirit of Durthu

+ Allegiance +

Allegiance: Allegiance: Sylvaneth

+ Game Options +

Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost

+ Malign Sorcery +

Endless Spell: Spiteswarm Hive [50pts]

++ Total: [1,970pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

 

Second list has more drops and will probably go second. So I use the hidden enclave as reserve strategy. The list is more build on thinning the lines of Handgunners with Drycha before charging. 

++ **Pitched Battle** 2,000 (Order - Sylvaneth) [1,970pts] ++

+ Uncategorised +

Awakened Wyldwood

+ Leader +

Arch-Revenant [100pts]: General

Drycha Hamadreth [320pts]: 2. Regrowth

Treelord Ancient [260pts]: 5. Verdurous Harmony

+ Battleline +

Spite-Revenants [60pts]: 5 Spite-Revenants

Spite-Revenants [60pts]: 5 Spite-Revenants

+ Other +

Kurnoth Hunters [400pts]: 2x 3 Kurnoth Hunters, Kurnoth Scythe

Kurnoth Hunters [200pts]: 3 Kurnoth Hunters, Kurnoth Greatsword

+ Battalion +

Battalion: Forest Folk [520pts]
. Branchwraith: 1. Throne of Vines, 2. Spiritsong Stave
. Dryads: 10 Dryads
. Dryads: 10 Dryads
. Dryads: 10 Dryads

+ Allegiance +

Allegiance: Allegiance: Sylvaneth

+ Game Options +

Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost

+ Malign Sorcery +

Endless Spell: Spiteswarm Hive [50pts]

++ Total: [1,970pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

 

What do you think? Improvements? 

[Xil]

Optimized the second list. Took out the Spites and upgraded a squad of dryads to 20, putting me on 6 drops at 1950 pts. 

[Sleepa]

1 hour ago, Xil said:

Optimized the second list. Took out the Spites and upgraded a squad of dryads to 20, putting me on 6 drops at 1950 pts. 

I was going to say my only suggestion is to try and find a way to get 20 dryads in your units, since the get the +1 save as long as they have over 10 models.

Two battalions in am interesting approach. You will have a wealth of artifacts and command points to work with. Let me know how it goes!oils interesting

 

 

[Landohammer]

On 3/6/2020 at 5:25 PM, Xil said:

Sounds good. But what if I fail Spiteswarm or he uses his automatic ban once a game?  If he knows he will just ban the swarm and I get stranded in the open?! 

Just deploy your Branchwraith on the board edge. In most deployments that should put you out of range of his Unbinds, at least if you go first. 

If for any reason the Spiteswarm fails to go off, just try to make sure you teleport your hunters into cover. That way if you blow the 9+ rerollable charge, you can rely on a rerollable 3+ save. Though I understand that  cover isn't always where you need it to be. Consider deploying a secondary caster on the front line to maximize a potential Wyldwood summon.  This has the added benefit of giving you two teleports and thus an additional charge attempt.

Note, that even if all of the above fails miserably (it occasionally will lol), the teleport itself will still fundamentally change your opponents game plan. You simply can't ignore 6 Kurnoth Hunters being that close. 

Winterleaf is the go-to glade for a lot of players (and for good reason). But Dreadwood is better at mitigating the impact of things outside of your control. Such as bad matchups, unlucky objective scattering, or losing priority turns. 

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Landohammer