AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Warheadsbylink]

20 hours ago, Arnied3 said:

Is there anything preventing us from just saying that she is angry or sad at the beginning of the round even if she isn't on the board? 

I seem to recall in a designer's commentary at some point they put a rule in to say that if a model isn't in the table it's rules don't take effect. I'm struggling to find it now but I remember it as it broke Shadow strike ripperdactyls for awhile, as when they were deployed off the table then they wouldn't get to drop a blot toad and it got further errata to fix it. I'll have to have a trawl through the FAQs at some point and see if I can find it.

I've been thinking with the new tzeentch how I'd want to have drycha off the board on turn 1 due to her squishiness, however if that means sacrificing a lot of damage potential in round one then that's a tougher proposition.

[Trevelyan]

51 minutes ago, Warheadsbylink said:

I've been thinking with the new tzeentch how I'd want to have drycha off the board on turn 1 due to her squishiness, however if that means sacrificing a lot of damage potential in round one then that's a tougher proposition.

If Drycha is genuinely at risk on Turn 1 then you’ve misrepresented the choice - while you are sacrificing damage potential on Turn 1, you are potentially saving it on the subsequent Turns that she is still alive to deliver. If she is genuinely at risk. 

[Arnied3]

2 hours ago, Warheadsbylink said:

I seem to recall in a designer's commentary at some point they put a rule in to say that if a model isn't in the table it's rules don't take effect.

Yup this is in the back of my mind as well. 

 

And I agree with Trevelyan above - i would rather have an alive unbuffed Drycha turn 3 than dead Drycha!!

[Warheadsbylink]

1 hour ago, Trevelyan said:

If Drycha is genuinely at risk on Turn 1 then you’ve misrepresented the choice - while you are sacrificing damage potential on Turn 1, you are potentially saving it on the subsequent Turns that she is still alive to deliver. If she is genuinely at risk. 

Yes, very true. I'd much rather have her alive! I suppose that my question is poorly worded in that regard as I just want to know whether when I deploy her from the roots if her damage is impacted at all. 

 Also I just wanted to say, that as a long time lurker I always appreciate your posts as they frequently present very objective and analytical points that I've found useful in making my list building choices and how I approach the army. Cheers

[IndigoGirls]

Last 100pts list question for the group. Which do you like more?

 

Dreadwood

TLA - General + Jewel of withering + Regrowth

Arch-Rev

Branchwraith - Aetherquartz brooch + Throne of Vines

Drycha - Regrowth

20 x Dryads

10 x Spite Revs

10 x Spite Revs

5 x Spite Revs

6 x Scythe Hunters

3 x Sword Hunters

Outcast battalion

Vengeful Skullroot

 

Or, swap out the bold items for...

5 x Spite Revs (down from 10)

Spiteswarm Hive

Extra CP

 

Thought with the swap...

Cons: Fewer bodies and less damage via Skullroot

Pros: More consistent charges and extra CPs to feed the aetherquartz brooch

 

[Trevelyan]

31 minutes ago, IndigoGirls said:

Last 100pts list question for the groupThought with the swap...

Cons: Fewer bodies and less damage via Skullroot

Pros: More consistent charges and extra CPs to feed the aetherquartz brooch

 

Of those two options, you definitely want the Hive and the CP. 

Dreadwood is very CP hungry - you need one per Turn just to use the command ability. And that ability is a lot more effective if you have the means to boost charges after the teleport. 

[IndigoGirls]

32 minutes ago, Trevelyan said:

Of those two options, you definitely want the Hive and the CP. 

Dreadwood is very CP hungry - you need one per Turn just to use the command ability. And that ability is a lot more effective if you have the means to boost charges after the teleport. 

Thanks for the quick thoughts! I think I agree.

I do have some concerns with the list and all of the points I'm putting into support pieces (TLA, Branchwraith, 20 Dryads, extra CP, and the hive). The hive also concerns me because it casts on a 7 and with the brooch over stave I'm not running any multi casters who can same turn spit out throne of vines into spiteswarm.

[Landohammer]

14 hours ago, thediceabide said:

Has anyone given Ironbark with Fyreslayers a shot since the new book? I "accidentally" picked up the Start Collecting and some Hearthguard and was considering a Runesmiter + Hearthguard bomb. Not sure which weapons on the Hearthguard, the poleaxes are pretty fun with that mortal wound output though.

So the nail in the coffin of Ironbark is that per CA 19, nearly the entire Fyreslayer army is fieldable as mercenaries.

You just have to give up your first CP, but otherwise its the same (minus access to 1 unit) and you even get a small buff. But most importantly you get to keep your glade of choice.

 

 

 

[Landohammer]

7 hours ago, Trevelyan said:

If Drycha is genuinely at risk on Turn 1 then you’ve misrepresented the choice - while you are sacrificing damage potential on Turn 1, you are potentially saving it on the subsequent Turns that she is still alive to deliver. If she is genuinely at risk. 

So just playing devil's advocate here bc me and Trevelyan haven't debated in a while:

So isn't deepstriking to forests inherently more risky? A lot of armies can get across the board quickly and easily zone out a single forest. Not a lot of armies can snipe a 9 wound 3+ character on turn 1. 

Also losing the Enraged/Embittered buff for a turn is pretty critical. It effectively halves her ranged output, or potentially quarters her melee output. 

When you go the deepstrike route, you generally need to push your free forests as far out as the scenario permits to get value out of it, so this just makes the problem worse. Having to rely on summoning a second forest is scary. You know your opponent will be saving Unbinds for it. 

TLDR; Deepstriking to forests is just too risky in competitive play. If you are scared of alpha strikes, proper screening is much safer. 

 

 

 

[Trevelyan]

26 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

So just playing devil's advocate here bc me and Trevelyan haven't debated in a while

That we have not. Sadly, for our first bout in ages, you clearly forgot to bring your “A” game 😛

You overlook a few key points:

Firstly, you can decide deployment on a game by game basis. If your enemy can’t threaten Drycha then there is absolutely no reason not to deploy her from the outset. That should go without saying. 

Secondly, the risk of being zoned out can be overstated. It is possible for an army to do it, and there is a risk that they could stop you from summoning more Wyldwoods (although not always *coughTLAcough*), but ensuring that there is nowhere wholly within 6” of a Wyldwood often requires a) dedicated positioning of one or more units in a way that doesn’t play to objectives; b) if done with a single unit almost guarantees that said unit is highly vulnerable to mortals from Roused by Magic and the end of charge phase; and c) is vastly diminished if the Wyldwood is defensively positioned in your own deployment zone rather than being offensively placed near the enemy. 

So if you deploy Drycha in reserve against a melee army with strong unbinding potential when your only Wyldwood is aggressively placed and you have no TLA then you’ve probably made a bad call. I suggest you don't do that. 🙂 

But if Drycha would be at risk from a ranged alpha then place a defensive Wyldwood and/or rely on a TLA to place one for you (and hope the TLA doesn’t get nuked instead!) and being her out when it is safe. 

That was fun. But I like it more when we agree. 

EDIT: there is something to be said for the risk of overestimating the risk of Drycha (or any other key unit) being the target of a nuke. That’s goes more to the general psychological problem of expecting your opponent to actively undermine your own plan, as if he had perfect knowledge and no plan of his own, rather than to play his own game and only undermine you to the extent that you are both fighting over the same objectives. Generally, a good player will put winning ahead of making you lose (and they are subtly different things), and nuking your hero on Turn 1 may not be a priority if it leaves him exposed in the long term. Of course, nuking your hero could be part of the plan too, and some players are so aggressive that they prefer to kill stuff and hope the objectives fall into place. Sometimes that even works for them. So it’s another layer of judgement. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Trevelyan

[Landohammer]

52 minutes ago, Trevelyan said:

That we have not. Sadly, for our first bout in ages, you clearly forgot to bring your “A” game 😛 Wrong! That was my "A" game. I just have a very weak game. Or that's what women tell me anyway. 1 Point me. 

Secondly, the risk of being zoned out can be overstated. It is possible for an army to do it, and there is a risk that they could stop you from summoning more Wyldwoods (although not always *coughTLAcough*), but ensuring that there is nowhere wholly within 6” of a Wyldwood often requires a) dedicated positioning of one or more units in a way that doesn’t play to objectives; b) if done with a single unit almost guarantees that said unit is highly vulnerable to mortals from Roused by Magic and the end of charge phase; and c) is vastly diminished if the Wyldwood is defensively positioned in your own deployment zone rather than being offensively placed near the enemy. 

A) Fair. Enticing an opponent to tie up resources zoning a forest could have some strategic value in itself. But you are right to acknowledge that many opponents simply wouldn't bother. However its just not something you risk with a 320pt unit. Also note that Drycha will be giving up 1 casting and her 9 inches of movement anytime she deepstrikes (on top of losing the Enraged buff). So the disadvantages are really beginning to stack here.

B) I think you may be overestimating the impact of forest mortal wounds in competitive games.  They just don't generate enough damage to threaten anything. All it takes is a cheap throwaway unit to camp there until the bottom of turn 3, wherein deepstrikers would auto-die. 

C) If you are deepstriking into your own deployment zone, then what is the point? Even the scariest alpha strike shooty lists (such as the Tzeentch army specifically mentioned) can be mitigated with screening, gaps, and LOS blockers. 

So if you deploy Drycha in reserve against a melee army with strong unbinding potential when your only Wyldwood is aggressively placed and you have no TLA then you’ve probably made a bad call. I suggest you don't do that. 🙂 

In age of sigmar, aren't most armies melee?  And generally our casters have no bonuses, so even basic unbinding can be a problem. Personally my forest is ALWAYS aggressively placed because I want to be fighting beside it. But yea point taken. At the end of the day its a tool in our toolbox and that's a good thing. I just argue that its not a tool you use on a ferrari, but rather its better suited for toy cars

 

See above for my responses in red. I think a big part of the argument in favor of deepstriking assumes the use of TLA which is completely fair. The TLA essentially eliminates all of the risk. 

 

[Aezeal]

I tried a first game against Fyreslayers (with a.o. 20 berserkers in the annoying lodge.. so it was a unit with -1 to  wound,  fighting 2x (often rr 1 on hits and rerolling all wound rolls,  with a 3+ and 4++ at least ). How does one deal with that. I tried to avoid him and roadblock him but I'd not taken that much chaff with me. Then he got a charge on my 6 scythe hunters (who where positioned for countercharging.but he got  a longish charge of)... and they where gone . POOOOF gone in one turn (2 got to hit back inbetween his attacks since he didn't attack the 2nd time with them right away... else they'd not even have hit back).... while he only got 8 of the 20 in fighting range.

He also got Alarielle in LOS of his shooting dwarfs.. and 10 of them got her to 2 wounds in one round of shooting (tactical retreat saved her). 

[Warheadsbylink]

I've had a look through and found that ruling which made me wonder about Drycha. It's on page 4 of the core rules FAQ (https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/8f9bd00c.pdf).

The wording is:

"RESERVES Q: Can models set up in reserve (in the Celestial Realm, for example) cast spells, or use abilities or command abilities to affect other units?

A: No. Only models deployed on the battlefield can cast spells, or use abilities or command abilities to affect other units."

I'm not sure if this is different to the original wording that I saw (I think it was older), as this instance mentions that a model cannot use abilities to affect other units and Drycha's ability is just affecting herself. So I assume that it wouldn't be an issue, unless anyone else has a different interpretation?

 

 

[a74xhx]

18 hours ago, Landohammer said:

So the nail in the coffin of Ironbark is that per CA 19, nearly the entire Fyreslayer army is fieldable as mercenaries.

You just have to give up your first CP, but otherwise its the same (minus access to 1 unit) and you even get a small buff. But most importantly you get to keep your glade of choice.

No love for the Dispossessed?  (I not looked enough into to them to know if Dispossessed are a reasonable suggestion or not)

[Trevelyan]

19 hours ago, Landohammer said:

See above for my responses in red. I think a big part of the argument in favor of deepstriking assumes the use of TLA which is completely fair. The TLA essentially eliminates all of the risk. 

The genesis of the discussion wasn’t around offensive deepstriking, but using reserve deployment as a means to avoid losing key units to a ranged (or possibly melee, but that’s easier to screen) alpha. 

Reserve deployment is rarely worthwhile for a genuine deepstrike offensive move since you’d miss out on the obvious charge buffs in the hero phase (Hive). It’s really best used as a mobility tool now that we can only teleport a limited number of units each turn.

[Landohammer]

4 hours ago, a74xhx said:

No love for the Dispossessed?  (I not looked enough into to them to know if Dispossessed are a reasonable suggestion or not)

TBH there aren't many Dispossessed units that are going to contribute much to a Sylvaneth army. In fact, the only units that I would even consider as allies would be the cannons, and those are ALSO available as  Mercenaries. (Blacksmoke Battery)

If you want to mix Sylvaneth and Duardin and remain competitive, its probably better to run Living City. You can have Dispossessed as your battleline, a few Sylvaneth units, and then take Fyreslayers as mercenaries. 

It would be a motley crew of a list but it would be fun! 

 

 

[Naem]

Hello Friends, 

I have finished constructing my SC box and two more boxes of Dryads and now I am ready to paint. But I can't decided on a scheme yet, especially as I haven't found one yet that shows exactly what I would like to go for.  So I wanted to ask you guys for advise on how to achieve what I envision.

As a general concept I originally had an army of Weirwood Trees in mind, like the Game of Thrones ones.  So generally speaking a bright bark and red leaves.  Then I found another image of a scheme with a bright bark but more yellowy leaves that I also really liked:

 

The original idea goes more into this direction:

What would you say was the way to achieve the look of the bark? Also I thought about painting the bark according to this video: 

which gives them a more "earthy" and "woody" feel and should also look pretty neat with dark red or dark yellow leaves. Also the technique is quite easy with mostly drybrushing. 

So in conclusion: which one do you like best and which one would be easiest to paint time-wise (as I already dread painting all of my 60 Dryads :D)? Plus: what would be you guess on how the bark color in the two first pictures was achieved?

 

Sorry if this is the wrong topic and should rather be moved into the painting section. 

[Arnied3]

@Naem Howdy! I have painted something similar for my army. the first pic is prob based coated the fang with celestra grey and ultuan grey for the light bark. (which is what i did). Its actually pretty easy to paint quickly (but i still manage to take weeks)

[Arnied3]

@Trevelyan @Landohammer thank you both for the excellent points! You two are always worth watching 😄

I am rolling a list with Lords of the Clan and Drycha for a tournament this weekend - and having Drycha in reserve has been very much on my mind. Its was a way of protecting her and using her to counter turn 1/2 movements - since as in my local meta she is dead turn 1 most games (everyone hates her) but i am sure its also me playing waaay to aggressively with her. The plan being that between the TLA tree summons will ensure i have a good option for when she drops. 

[Naem]

9 minutes ago, Arnied3 said:

@Naem Howdy! I have painted something similar for my army. the first pic is prob based coated the fang with celestra grey and ultuan grey for the light bark. (which is what i did). Its actually pretty easy to paint quickly (but i still manage to take weeks)

Thank you! Indeed basing in The Fang seems to be a good idea. Someone on reddit suggested to base mechanicus standard grey, then wash with Nightshade, layer with Ulthuan and drybrush with Praxeti White (plus optional fine highlights with White Scar). But your way seems to be a lot quicker.

Did you use no Shade at all? And what would you guess was his approach for the brown parts (the "skin" under the bark)?

I think the GW way will look similar to the staff on the first picture, which would actually work pretty good with warm leave colors.

[a74xhx]

2 hours ago, Landohammer said:

TBH there aren't many Dispossessed units that are going to contribute much to a Sylvaneth army. In fact, the only units that I would even consider as allies would be the cannons, and those are ALSO available as  Mercenaries. (Blacksmoke Battery)

If you want to mix Sylvaneth and Duardin and remain competitive, its probably better to run Living City. You can have Dispossessed as your battleline, a few Sylvaneth units, and then take Fyreslayers as mercenaries. 

It would be a motley crew of a list but it would be fun! 

Been eyeing up Living City since the book launch, but there are so many units in Cities. Was considering a tanks, Kurnoths and Drycha list. Maybe Vanilla Treelords instead for use on the deploy-shoot-move-charge Command Ability. But deepstriking from the table edge of the feels very blockable.

[Landohammer]

26 minutes ago, a74xhx said:

Been eyeing up Living City since the book launch, but there are so many units in Cities. Was considering a tanks, Kurnoths and Drycha list. Maybe Vanilla Treelords instead for use on the deploy-shoot-move-charge Command Ability. But deepstriking from the table edge of the feels very blockable.

I am actually working on a Living City army as well. It gave me a reason to strip/repaint my wanderer models that look like a 5 year old painted them.

Deepstriking from the table edge is actually pretty strong. There are so many places to arrive that its really difficult for opponents to anticipate.

For me, the biggest challenge with Living City is the 1:4 ratio. This generally means that you are only going to get a max of 2 units of Sylvaneth, unless you build some kind of crazy 12 drop list. 

 

[Arnied3]

18 hours ago, Naem said:

Thank you! Indeed basing in The Fang seems to be a good idea. Someone on reddit suggested to base mechanicus standard grey, then wash with Nightshade, layer with Ulthuan and drybrush with Praxeti White (plus optional fine highlights with White Scar). But your way seems to be a lot quicker.

Did you use no Shade at all? And what would you guess was his approach for the brown parts (the "skin" under the bark)?

I think the GW way will look similar to the staff on the first picture, which would actually work pretty good with warm leave colors.

Sorry totally forgot about shades. I based coated the fang and shaded with nightshade. the pale bark i shaded with thinned down nurn oil

[IndigoGirls]

How'd the trees do at the LVO???

[Inquisitorsz]

20 hours ago, IndigoGirls said:

How'd the trees do at the LVO???

Dunno about LVO but at Cancon we didn't do very well at all. 

Top Sylvaneth was 47th, (4 - 2) 
https://downunderpairings.com/ArmyList.php?ArmyID=15754
 

I only managed to go 2-4 despite a strong start. 
I started well, had 2 good wins early, 1 minor loss in a tough match up against shooty stormcast, and then got smashed on day 2. 
That was 4 stonehorns + 2 thundertusks, slaanesh and a nurgle buffed knights bomb. 

The ogors and nurgle games I don't think I could have won no matter what. 
The slaanesh game i could have won if I had more experience and knew slaanesh better. I fell into some silly traps and should have played much more defensively. I came out strong in the first turn and threw it all away later as I got overconfident. 
The shooty stormcast game was very close and I think I could have won that if I wasn't playing with a massive handicap. 

I only finished painting my base army 3am the night before. So I had no models to summon, no extra dryads no extra anything for Alarielle. I had 2 old forests that I used, but no extra ones.  
So I feel like most games I was playing 300-400 pts down. That being said, I don't think that would have made a difference against ogors or nurgle. Might have had a small impact vs slaanesh. Didn't matter at all in my first 2 wins. 

I plan on trying my army again in the future ... properly this time lol.