AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Arzalyn]

Does anyone have some experience using Alarielle in less than 2k points lists? Around here everyone plays at the 1.5k range (with just 2 battleline) and I'm tempted to get one after the points drops. I was thinking in trying something like this:
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Gnarlroot

Leaders
Treelord Ancient (260)
- General
- Trait: Nurtured by Magic
- Deepwood Spell: Verdurous Harmony
Alarielle the Everqueen (600)
- Deepwood Spell: Throne of Vines
Branchwraith (80)
- Artefact: Chalice of Nectar
- Deepwood Spell: The Dwellers Below

Battleline
20 x Dryads (200)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)

Units
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200)
- Greatswords

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Gladewyrm (30)
Spiteswarm Hive (50)

Total: 1500 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 73

I would use her to summon another unity of 3 Hunters with swords. Is she worthy at this point range or would be better to use those 600 points on more bodies?

[Trevelyan]

20 hours ago, IndigoGirls said:

Winterleaf just feels like a bit of a win more ability in comparison. I don't think it shores up many weaknesses in the army.

Short of addressing glaring gaps that leave you vulnerable to a wide variety of other factions, you generally benefit more from enhancing strengths than from mitigating weaknesses. 

Whether Winterleaf actually enhances strengths is a different question - you might just as easily argue that Dreadwood is really a better strength enhancer by building further on our existing mobility. But looking at whether a Glade makes us slight better at things we don’t do well is the wrong approach.l from the outset.  

12 hours ago, Arzalyn said:

I would use her to summon another unity of 3 Hunters with swords. Is she worthy at this point range or would be better to use those 600 points on more bodies?

I would be cautious with any list that depends on Alarielle summoning a specific unit in order to work. 

One advantage of her summon is the high degree of flexibility it brings. Kurnoths make a good default option, but Alarielle works best if she has at least the option to drop 20 Dryads as a screen or to secure an objective, or 10 Tree-Revenants for unexpected mobility.

If you generally need her to summon a specific unit into the list but can cope if she doesn’t (or if she does before you get the chance) then that’s potentially viable, but if you will always want the same unit then it might be better to take that unit from the outset and take an extra 400 points rather than Alarielle. 

[IndigoGirls]

45 minutes ago, Trevelyan said:

Short of addressing glaring gaps that leave you vulnerable to a wide variety of other factions, you generally benefit more from enhancing strengths than from mitigating weaknesses. 

Whether Winterleaf actually enhances strengths is a different question - you might just as easily argue that Dreadwood is really a better strength enhancer by building further on our existing mobility. But looking at whether a Glade makes us slight better at things we don’t do well is the wrong approach.l from the outset. 

The point I was hoping to make with my Winterleaf comment was... what the glade offers seems less than Dreadwood. Dreadwood helps alleviate some of the strain placed on the army's mobility. In terms of pushing strengths further I think Gnarlroot does a great job of that, pushing healing and defense just a bit further. That said I can see arguments made against healing as a powerful ability in the first place.

Really the question that I still have is, are people generally not playing Dreadwood? And if that is the case, why not? I see soo many Winterleaf lists in comparison and I believe Dreadwood offers as much upside if not more.

[Tiberius501]

How do we fight Ossiarchs? Especially when Katakros is involved... that 3+ save he (or Petrefex) give across the whole army is sickening haha. Not to mention the 3+/3+/6+++ The troops have, plus the 4+ roll to get dudes back up from the harvester AND THEN all the reviving the army can do ontop. I just bounce off them and my sadness is great. 

[Arzalyn]

32 minutes ago, Trevelyan said:

If you generally need her to summon a specific unit into the list but can cope if she doesn’t (or if she does before you get the chance) then that’s potentially viable, but if you will always want the same unit then it might be better to take that unit from the outset and take an extra 400 points rather than Alarielle. 

That's a good point! I could summon the 20 dryads with her (the revenants not yet, don't have enought of them...), I hope the branchwraith fullfil this job, but I have the option if necessary. My main doubt is if she brings enought to the list for the 400 points she cost. I'm not sure if I have enought multi-wounds unities to use her healing well, her command ability is nice (especially with the sword hunters) and the 3 spells + throne of vines looks good to try to get our endless spells on the board. She surelly brings a lot of utility to the list, but I don't know if the list needs more utility or the extra punch that a drycha/durthu (+ a wych or revenants with the spare points) would be better.

[IndigoGirls]

55 minutes ago, Tiberius501 said:

How do we fight Ossiarchs? Especially when Katakros is involved... that 3+ save he (or Petrefex) give across the whole army is sickening haha. Not to mention the 3+/3+/6+++ The troops have, plus the 4+ roll to get dudes back up from the harvester AND THEN all the reviving the army can do ontop. I just bounce off them and my sadness is great. 

I have yet to play against Ossiarch but I would imagine mortals through casting, scythes/sword hunters, Durthu, Allarielle, even Drycha. To be honest I would expect most of Sylvaneth's hammer units to do decently well as they come with rend. Also we have some ability to output mortal wounds which is elite armor save's cryptonite.

I think in general you want to get to the harvester ASAP. Assuming it's nicely bubble wrapped you can try to lay down enough fire power to ensure you wipe entire units at a time.

All of this said, even if the units are well positioned the Ossiarch defense may be too much. The best bet is probably beating then to objectives when possible.

Edited January 6, 2020 by IndigoGirls

[TreelordRecent]

3 hours ago, Tiberius501 said:

How do we fight Ossiarchs? Especially when Katakros is involved... that 3+ save he (or Petrefex) give across the whole army is sickening haha. Not to mention the 3+/3+/6+++ The troops have, plus the 4+ roll to get dudes back up from the harvester AND THEN all the reviving the army can do ontop. I just bounce off them and my sadness is great. 

I never played Ossiarchs but I imagine a big deep strike with blocks of 6 scythe hunters on their heroes or special characters  with dreadwood and our trees would be the way to go. In terms of other units with lots of rend or mortal wounds I guess Alarielle and Durthu would be helpful. 

I would target the characters first to prevent the return of their models. 

The spiteswarm hive can be helpful to ensure the charge takes place.

[Zanzou]

5 hours ago, Tiberius501 said:

How do we fight Ossiarchs? Especially when Katakros is involved... that 3+ save he (or Petrefex) give across the whole army is sickening haha. Not to mention the 3+/3+/6+++ The troops have, plus the 4+ roll to get dudes back up from the harvester AND THEN all the reviving the army can do ontop. I just bounce off them and my sadness is great. 

Strategy: Avoid match at all costs > wait another half a year for the bone faction approaching 70% win rate to be nerfed > save the lives of your woodling faction who has a win rate in the low 40s 😅

[IndigoGirls]

Has anyone found success running the vengeful skullroot? It seems unwieldy but potentially powerful. Its casting value is reasonable, I like that it can't hurt Sylvaneth, and I like the potential near Wyldwoods. It's reasonably pointed, I'm just concerned about moving it around.

[Sleepa]

I think Sylvaneth actually might have a better matchup against OBR than several other armies. We can use Wyldwoods to funnel their Mortek, and block LOS for their casters/crawler. Wyldwoods can also help with the MW attrition game, which is likely our best chance at neutering them enough to survive combat once we finally have to engage. We *can* run tons of chaff to keep our hero's out of combat, and free to focus on ranged harassment or magic. Shooting down their Harvesters and heroes is pretty essential. Drycha is actually awesome against them, because despite being fragile, she's a great turret for blasting Harvesters off the table. I think at least one TLA will start to be more of an auto-include in lists for the free woods, plus his spell, which helps play that ranged attrition game.

I think the release of OBR does tip the balance back to Scythe Hunters as the hands-down more useful Kurnoth loadout, putting the scythe/sword debate to rest until something else shifts in the meta. Scythe Hunters are probably the most efficient point-per-damage ratio in our entire book against OBR, so a 6 (or 9) block is probably necessary if we actually want to fight them heads-up. It might be more correct to just plant trees everywhere and bunker down, trying to desperately play the objectives while mitigating losses.  Against Kataphros, I think we throw trees between him and anywhere he wants to be. Short of jumping him with a 9-block of Scythe Hunters, I don't think he's going down in a match against Sylvaneth.  

[Zanzou]

don't know where I was going with this post

Edited January 9, 2020 by Zanzou

[Trevelyan]

On 1/7/2020 at 1:06 PM, IndigoGirls said:

Has anyone found success running the vengeful skullroot? It seems unwieldy but potentially powerful. ... It's reasonably pointed, I'm just concerned about moving it around.

Remember that you don’t have to move it past the enemy unit, you can shuffle an inch forward over the target then move back to a clear space in front. I managed to hit three units with a single Skullroot last night by casting directly in front and sweeping the line. 

For added value, the chunky base is good for blocking movement. 

On 12/20/2019 at 1:27 AM, Pennydude said:

I do agree that having 2 TLAs kinda sucks because you can’t use each model’s Silent Communion ability.

Having two hands kinda sucks because I only use one to write with. 😛

Seriously, there is so much more to a TLA than that one ability. You still get another robust caster with monster stats and a useful spell. 

[Arnied3]

On 1/7/2020 at 1:06 PM, IndigoGirls said:

Has anyone found success running the vengeful skullroot? It seems unwieldy but potentially powerful. Its casting value is reasonable, I like that it can't hurt Sylvaneth, and I like the potential near Wyldwoods. It's reasonably pointed, I'm just concerned about moving it around.

This is next on my list to find out! Its currently in pieces on my table so i hope to start using it in my next few games. 

 

3 hours ago, Trevelyan said:

Remember that you don’t have to move it past the enemy unit, you can shuffle an inch forward over the target then move back to a clear space in front. I managed to hit three units with a single Skullroot last night by casting directly in front and sweeping the line. 

For added value, the chunky base is good for blocking movement. 

Having two hands kinda sucks because I only use one to write with. 😛

Seriously, there is so much more to a TLA than that one ability. You still get another robust caster with monster stats and a useful spell. 

Excellent point about the movement. I never thought to move it like that. 

[Gnollu]

Still, cast 1/dispell 1 without possibility to put it on balewind vortex for 260pts hurts. Especially when You think that in combat vanilla treelord performs better (4 attacks of sweeping blow) for 80pts less.

IMO vanilla treelord + branchwraith is better investment of 260pts

[Trevelyan]

A Branchwraith in isolation is far more fragile than a TLA and can’t perform in a second line support role nearly as well. A TLA can die, but requires a reasonable effort to kill it. A Branchwraith, in contrast, can die to a stiff breeze. In a Gnarlroot list in particular, the TLA is vastly more useful than a Branchwraith for applying the Glade buff behind a line of other models. 

Standard Treelord + Branchwraith is one of those things that looks better on paper - it costs the same and has the (fractionally) better combat potential you suggest. In practice, on the table, it plays very differently so the straight cost comparison isn’t the whole story. 

While there are merits to the BV, if you want one then you need to build that into the comparative cost. 

All of which isn’t to suggest that you would never consider a Treelord + Branchwraith as an alternative to a second TLA, but it isn’t a one-sided issue. 

[Sleepa]

Now that TLAs are 260 pts, the first one in any list is absolutely worth it. The second one does become a far more contentious choice, but even with worse combat output, they have a phenomenal unique spell, a fantastic command ability, and the additional utility of being a relatively durable  body for any endless spells or other command abilities you want available to your frontline troops.

As Trevelyan pointed out;  Branchwraiths can die to a stiff breeze. There's no disputing the value a Branchwaith brings to an army, especially at such a low cost (I try to squeeze two in most lists), but they are ABSURDLY fragile. In my experience, taking either Regrowth or  Verdurous Harmony on a Branchwraith is never a good idea, because they just won't survive if you try to keep them in range or LoS of anything you want to heal. Most opponents know that killing our Dryad factories is a top priority, especially considering how easy it is if we expose them.

Before the points drop, I'd have hands down agreed that TLAs were a bad deal, and that a second one was never worth it. At 260, I still lament the fact they only have one spell/unbind, but the sheer versatility they bring to the table is hard to deny. I guess it doesn't help that AOS has not felt like a game where versatility is the optimal path to victory in quite a while. The meta hasn't been kind to Jack-of-all-Trades armies like ours. Thankfully I still have an absolute blast playing Sylvaneth! Easily my favorite army (Although admittedly the other two aren't super competitive either; Sacrosanct Stormcast, and Khorne Mortals) in AOS.

[Trevelyan]

Just to clarify, I wouldn’t usually take a second TLA. But in a LotC battalion, which I would generally only take in a Gnarlroot Glade anyway, then I would absolutely rather have two TLAs and one Treelord than the other way around. 

EDIT: I’m now wondering whether there are other occasions where two TLAs would be valid. Either taking LotC in another scenario, or without LotC. 

Edited January 9, 2020 by Trevelyan

[Inquisitorsz]

How do people use branchwraiths? 
I imagine they would just sit in or behind the first free wyldwood and pump out dryads?
Wouldn't she be pretty protected being essentially out of sight to most things. 

So as long as you screen her from alpha charges, she should be pretty safe shouldn't she? 

[chuckecheese]

18 hours ago, Inquisitorsz said:

How do people use branchwraiths? 
I imagine they would just sit in or behind the first free wyldwood and pump out dryads?
Wouldn't she be pretty protected being essentially out of sight to most things. 

So as long as you screen her from alpha charges, she should be pretty safe shouldn't she? 

Generally pretty much exactly that. In the woods she can't usually be shot. I will often screen with spite revenants to prevent charges. She survives most games for me.

[a74xhx]

On 1/9/2020 at 10:15 PM, Trevelyan said:

Just to clarify, I wouldn’t usually take a second TLA. But in a LotC battalion, which I would generally only take in a Gnarlroot Glade anyway, then I would absolutely rather have two TLAs and one Treelord than the other way around. 

EDIT: I’m now wondering whether there are other occasions where two TLAs would be valid. Either taking LotC in another scenario, or without LotC. 

Outside of LOTC, do you think it's usually best to run the tla with a treelord, in order to make that stomp reliable? Or are you mostly keeping the tla out of combat?

Are you putting the gnarlroot trait and artefact on the tla? The temptation is to throw the gnarlroot artefact on the dryad summoner - but that feels a waste

[Trevelyan]

13 hours ago, a74xhx said:

Outside of LOTC, do you think it's usually best to run the tla with a treelord, in order to make that stomp reliable? Or are you mostly keeping the tla out of combat?

Are you putting the gnarlroot trait and artefact on the tla? The temptation is to throw the gnarlroot artefact on the dryad summoner - but that feels a waste

Outside of LotC I very rarely run a standard Treelord. Even at 180 points it is less appealing than paying a little more for Kurnoth Hunters. I might be more interested if it drops to 160, but for now the drop in damage output from the monster damage charts is too steep. 

Outside of Gnarlroot LotC I probably use a TLA about half the time, almost always to support a unit of Kurnoths with Verdurous Harmony and some 3” reach attacks. In that case I treat the stomp as a nice bonus rather than something to depend on. It’s certainly not something worth spending another 180 points to up the proc rate from 50% to 75%. 

If I’m running Gnarlroot LotC then I almost always give the TLA General the Vesperal Gem and Verdurous Harmony, supporting a unit of Kurnoths (6 Scythes). Restoring one with VH and healing another with Nurtured by Magic keeps the unit ticking over. 

The second TLA gets the Gnarlroot Chalice. This TLA tends to run with the vanilla Treelord, so Regrowth is my likely spell choice for emergencies (although he may not be the only caster with it - I like Regrowth on Drycha too), he really wants to be casting Verdant Blessing or an endless spell each turn. The Chalice is to help with those. 

If I’ve got a third artefact it’ll be the Spiritsong Stave for the Branchwraith with Throne of Vines. Otherwise I’ll just have the ‘Wraith cast Thrones on Turn 1 and summon normally thereafter. I don’t think that improved odds of an extra unit of 10 Dryads with the Chalice is ever worth the losing the frontline casting bonus for the second TLA. 

[a74xhx]

10 hours ago, Trevelyan said:

Outside of LotC I very rarely run a standard Treelord. Even at 180 points it is less appealing than paying a little more for Kurnoth Hunters. I might be more interested if it drops to 160, but for now the drop in damage output from the monster damage charts is too steep. 

Outside of Gnarlroot LotC I probably use a TLA about half the time, almost always to support a unit of Kurnoths with Verdurous Harmony and some 3” reach attacks. In that case I treat the stomp as a nice bonus rather than something to depend on. It’s certainly not something worth spending another 180 points to up the proc rate from 50% to 75%. 

If I’m running Gnarlroot LotC then I almost always give the TLA General the Vesperal Gem and Verdurous Harmony, supporting a unit of Kurnoths (6 Scythes). Restoring one with VH and healing another with Nurtured by Magic keeps the unit ticking over. 

The second TLA gets the Gnarlroot Chalice. This TLA tends to run with the vanilla Treelord, so Regrowth is my likely spell choice for emergencies (although he may not be the only caster with it - I like Regrowth on Drycha too), he really wants to be casting Verdant Blessing or an endless spell each turn. The Chalice is to help with those. 

If I’ve got a third artefact it’ll be the Spiritsong Stave for the Branchwraith with Throne of Vines. Otherwise I’ll just have the ‘Wraith cast Thrones on Turn 1 and summon normally thereafter. I don’t think that improved odds of an extra unit of 10 Dryads with the Chalice is ever worth the losing the frontline casting bonus for the second TLA. 

Awesome, thanks. I've always avoided using a tla or Gnarlroot, but totally going to try a Gnarlroot tla supporting a Kurnoth blob with  in my next game. I often struggle with being able to get my woods further than the middle of the board, so a 2nd line tla should help.

[overtninja]

I just had a 1k tournament today, I ran a Dreadwood glade with Drycha (her spell was Regrowth), a TLA (general with required artefact and command trait, his spell was Treesong), an Outcast Battalion with 5, 5 and 10 Spite-Revenants, and a Branchwraith with the Vesperal Gem artefact (she had Verdurous Harmony as her spell).

I can happily report that between the two games I played, first against Nighthaunt and second against Rotbringers, Spite-Revenants proved to be absolute monsters, tearing down everything from hero ghosts to Blightknights to Blightlords to Nurgle heroes with an idiotic press of attacks and rerolls. Having a discounted TLA to use is quite nice, as having two guaranteed woods on the field turn 1 really helped out. Even the command ability teleport came into play the second game to let my Spites get all over the field to do more awful things to everyone. Really enjoying the build, as I normally go Kurnoth-heavy.

[Inquisitorsz]

OK hive mind. I need some last minute list advice. I think I've narrowed it down to 2 options.

Tournament will use full ghyran rules including all the extra spells. 

Option 1 - extra hero (arch rev) and a command point. Could also be winterleaf with the arch rev carrying the items. 

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Gnarlroot
Alarielle the Everqueen (600)
- Deepwood Spell: Throne of Vines
Drycha Hamadreth (320)
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
Branchwraith (80)
- General
- Trait: Nurtured by Magic
- Artefact: Chalice of Nectar
- Deepwood Spell: Verdurous Harmony
Arch-Revenant (100)
5 x Spite-Revenants (60)
5 x Spite-Revenants (60)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
6 x Kurnoth Hunters (400)
- Scythes
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200)
- Greatswords
Spiteswarm Hive (50)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 96

or Option 2 - more bodies, extra tree revs for teleports - one less hero

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Gnarlroot
Alarielle the Everqueen (600)
- Deepwood Spell: Throne of Vines
Drycha Hamadreth (320)
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
Branchwraith (80)
- General
- Trait: Nurtured by Magic
- Artefact: Chalice of Nectar
- Deepwood Spell: Verdurous Harmony
15 x Spite-Revenants (180)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
6 x Kurnoth Hunters (400)
- Scythes
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200)
- Greatswords
Spiteswarm Hive (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 101

I'll have 20 dryads and 3 hunters for summons either way. Option 1 would probably also give me 10 tree revs for a summoning option if I get them finished in time. 

Thoughts?

[Trevelyan]

1 hour ago, Inquisitorsz said:

OK hive mind. I need some last minute list advice. I think I've narrowed it down to 2 options.

Honestly, I don’t like either of those as Gnarlroot lists. The only real benefit you are getting from Gnarlroot is the reliable summoning on the Branchwraith. But Nurtured by Magic is largely wasted on her as you’ll rarely have a target for it. Alarielle and a Drycha can benefit from the rerolls, but they benefit just as much from Winterleaf. 

On that basis I would go with Winterleaf rather than Gnarlroot, and Option 1 to give the Arch Revenant the artefact. 

You could consider fiddling points for an Outcast Battalion. If you drop the Sword Hunters (Alarielle can summon as needed) for a third unit of Spites, perhaps even a larger unit, you’ll have points to spare for Outcasts and more infantry. You may or may not want to buy the command point if you are getting one from Outcasts anyway.

Drycha and Outcast Spites complement each other well, Archie supports the Scythe hunters and Alarielle generates her own support. Meanwhile the Branchwraith churns out extra Dryads at the back. 

You could give the Dryad Throne of a vines too - she only needs to cast it first turn (Alarielle gets it thereafter) but it helps a lot with her summoning.