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AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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Anyway, been fiddling around with some Heartwood lists.  I think there's real potential here.  The main idea for the coming list is to build something that plays defensively early and takes out key pieces in their army at range, either strong offensive pieces or key synergy pieces.  

The main crux is that 3 units of 3 Kurnoth Hunters backed up with the Horn of the Consort should do on average 14 wounds to a target with a 4+ save.  This should allow you to deal with some center pieces like Keeper of Secret generals, Abhorrant Ghoul Kings on Terrorgheists, Screaming Bells etc in a single turn by either killing them outright or neutering them to a point where they don't move and fight well to be killed off the next turn.  The list can also pick off small synergy pieces like Hag Queens, Arch-Regents, Blue Scribes, Slaughterpriests as well.   If the bows get them right to the point of death but are not killed, they still have a backup shooter/caster to finish the job if necessary.  Also, the Scythe Hunters should be able to guard them well to get 2-3 rounds of shooting to clear out the targets and pull apart the opposing strategy.  Once the key pieces are down, then the 2 big hitters should be able to deal with the rest (Hunters with Scythes and the other large character).

Also, the list generally won't throw wyldwoods into the center of the table to keep shooting lanes clear.

Lastly, the list has a high number of drops so you generally won't get to pick who goes first or second.  But then again, with all the range, you generally won't care too much either.

What are your thoughts on these variations?

Base of the list:

Branchwraith with Throne
5 Spite Revenants
6 Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes
3 Kurnoth Hunters with Bows
3 Kurnoth Hunters with Bows
940pts

With that base, I have several options:

1) Durthu Treatment:

Spirit of Durthu General
Branchwraith with Verdurous Harmony, Horn of the Consort
Arch-Revenant
3 Kurnoth Hunters with Bows
3 Kurnoth Hunters with Swords
5 Tree Revenants
5 Spite Revenants
1060 pts

Pros: Durthu fights very well and has decent shooting.  3 extremely capable melee units.
Cons: Light on magic.  More reliant on an upfield Wyldwood for Durthu.

2) Drycha Treatment

Drycha Hamadreth with Regrowth
Branchwraith with Verdurous Harmony, Horn of the Consort
Arch-Revenant General
3 Kurnoth Hunters with Bows
3 Kurnoth Hunters with Swords
5 Tree Revenants
5 Tree Revenants
1060 pts

Pros: Drycha's shooting is a great character assassin, especially to finish off targets heavily wounded by bows, 3 extremely capable melee units.
Cons: No stomps in the list.  Drycha can be killed easily and not quite as fighty as a Durthu or Alarielle

3) Alarielle Treatment 1

Alarielle the Everqueen with Regrowth (Summons 3 Kurnoth Hunters with Greatswords)
Branchwraith General with Verdurous Harmony, Horn of the Consort
3 Kurnoth Hunters with Bows
5 Spite Revenants
5 Spite Revenants
1060 pts

Pros: Good casting from Alarielle, 3 extremely capable melee units.  Alarielle's command ability will radiate from all Hunters.
Cons: No stomps in the list.  No Arch-Revenant for 2nd set of rerolls to hit.  No Tree Revenants for backfield grabs.

4) Alarielle Treatment 2

Alarielle the Everqueen with Regrowth (Summons 3 Kurnoth Hunters with Bows)
Branchwraith General with Verdurous Harmony, Horn of the Consort
10 Tree Revenants
5 Spite Revenants
Spiteswarm Hive
Vengeful Skullroot
Malevolent Maelstrom
1060 pts

Pros: Good casting from Alarielle, Help from Endless Spells.  Alarielle's command ability will radiate from all Hunters. 10 Tree Revenants for backfield grabs and to threaten lone characters with buff from Hive
Cons: No stomps in the list.  No Arch-Revenant for 2nd set of rerolls to hit.  Only 2 really capable melee units

4) Alarielle Treatment 3

Alarielle the Everqueen with Regrowth (Summons 3 Kurnoth Hunters with Bows)
Branchwych General with Verdurous Harmony, Horn of the Consort
10 Tree Revenants
5 Spite Revenants
Spiteswarm Hive
Balewind Vortex
Malevolent Maelstrom
1060 pts

Pros: Good casting from Alarielle, Help from Endless Spells.  Alarielle's command ability will radiate from all Hunters. 10 Tree Revenants for backfield grabs and to threaten lone characters with buff from Hive.  Branchwych bomb in effect for those that get close or to hold up the center and really threaten anything already damaged by bows.
Cons: No stomps in the list.  No Arch-Revenant for 2nd set of rerolls to hit.  Only 2 really capable melee units.  Probably no dryad summoning turn 1.

Edited by Emissary
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Responding to vortex conversation

Yes, there are ways to make it work in some lists if you’re taking two wraiths anyway. But as you say, past a certain point there are easier ways to achieve much the same result without spending points on an endless spell. 

Edited by Trevelyan
Context - Forgot to include the quote
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So I finally got my chance to start putting the book through its paces this last week. 

A lot of the things I noticed have already been commented on. Drycha is a beast, and kills all of the things. Spites are fairly killy and also fairly fragile. The Wyldwood changes to a D6 in the charge phase did pretty much nothing all game. All fo this more to less jives with everyone else’s experience so I won’t overrun them here.

What I did want to highlight are a few areas that I haven’t seen talked about. 

I was playing an “untuned” skaven list. My list was fairly untuned as well, (somewhat limited by what I had on hand and what I could proxy) I So I felt we were more less evenly matched list-wise. I took a Drycha/TLA hybrid Winterleaf list with a single unit 6x Scythe hunters and the warm endless spell. We played the Total Conquest BP from the GHB 2019. I out-dropped him, so to treat the viability of going second I chose to give him first turn. The first turn as about what you’d expect, positioning to take objectives, hold what you could and prepare for combat turn 2. 

I was only using the old woods models, which I think actually put me at a bit of handicap. while imminently useable, the old woods are a bit cumbersome in how they are placed because of drop restrictions. There were several times during the match that I would have liked to place forest somewhere, but the old wood footprint was just too large and I had to pick a slightly less optimum spot. If I had been using the new models (bought, but still in the box) I would have been able to put them right where I needed them.

That being said I was able to have 3 out by the end of my first turn, and they proved to be a massive headache for my opponent. Shutting down LoS alone is almost worth the loss of that dangerous terrain check they used to provide. The inability to see through the forests meant that he had to push up to set himself up for charges, only to be either countercharged next turn, or forced to fight a bunch of stubborn dryads in the woods which largely went nowhere.

Throughout he course of the match, I was absolutely stunned at the level of board control we have. I put up about 2 woods in the third and 4th turn, making 5 on the board in total. Between teleports, summoning and units with relatively high movement speed, there wasn’t anything I couldn’t reach in a turn, turn and a half anywhere on the board. That made it very easy for me to isolate and destroy dangerous units without posing much risk to my army as a whole. I ended up just about tabling him in the top of the 5th, when he conceded. Over the course of the match, i lost 3 units of 5x spites and 1 unit of t-revs. Maybe 3-4 drayds and 1 hunter. The games outcome really only was fought over 2 objectives (despite their being 4 on the board). Those two objectives changed hands 2-3 times between them, with the final steal coming from T-revs turn 3 which ended up being the score needed to push me ahead for the rest of the game 9have I mentioned how much I love T-revs?). Combat-wise I took everything he had off the board and won handily when my opponent conceded turn 5: 13-10. 

 Then entire match was pretty much a textbook account of what makes us so difficult to fight. I was able to dictate when and where I got into combat, only picking fights I knew I could easily win (i.e. drycha frozen kernel-ing a unit of 40 clan rats was pretty funny). Screened Scythe hunters backed by an Archy is also no joke. 

Tree’s attacking when spells are cast works as well as it ever did, dealing a significant amount of damage throughout the course of the game. Likewise, having the worm function as a roving MW generator, blocking access to forest made life pretty rough for his Stormfeinds. They couldn’t shoot into the forest since they were LoS blocked, and they couldn’t really charge being blocked by the endless spell. 

Winterleaf’s trait is also very satisfying to play with, and also fairly intmidating. Having extra hits on 6’s made up for the hunters only have 3 attacks, (having the archy buff helped a lot too).

All in all I’m really pleased with how the book performed. It was a friendly game on both sides, but entirely taking an army of 160 or so models off the table is nothing to sneeze at even in a friendly game.  

Edited by Mirage8112
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7 hours ago, Lanoss said:

I think if you’re going to play heartwood you should have more(bigger units of) Hunters. Chuck in a Treelord/TLA/Durthu  or 2 for their stomp (and other abilities). The Glade almost tell you what to include for them to work best :) 

I'm not exactly sure how this helps me honestly.   Heartwood really doesn't care about the size of your units.  The only thing that would is the Arch-Revenants command ability.  Plus I already am spending 1000-1200 points on kurnoths alone generally across the lists...

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5 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

So I finally got my chance to start putting the book through its paces this last week. 

A lot of the things I noticed have already been commented on. Drycha is a beast, and kills all of the things. Spites are fairly killy and also fairly fragile. The Wyldwood changes to a D6 in the charge phase did pretty much nothing all game. All fo this more to less jives with everyone else’s experience so I won’t overrun them here.

What I did want to highlight are a few areas that I haven’t seen talked about. 

I was playing an “untuned” skaven list. My list was fairly untuned as well, (somewhat limited by what I had on hand and what I could proxy) I So I felt we were more less evenly matched list-wise. I took a Drycha/TLA hybrid Winterleaf list with a single unit 6x Scythe hunters and the warm endless spell. We played the Total Conquest BP from the GHB 2019. I out-dropped him, so to treat the viability of going second I chose to give him first turn. The first turn as about what you’d expect, positioning to take objectives, hold what you could and prepare for combat turn 2. 

I was only using the old woods models, which I think actually put me at a bit of handicap. while imminently useable, the old woods are a bit cumbersome in how they are placed because of drop restrictions. There were several times during the match that I would have liked to place forest somewhere, but the old wood footprint was just too large and I had to pick a slightly less optimum spot. If I had been using the new models (bought, but still in the box) I would have been able to put them right where I needed them.

That being said I was able to have 3 out by the end of my first turn, and they proved to be a massive headache for my opponent. Shutting down LoS alone is almost worth the loss of that dangerous terrain check they used to provide. The inability to see through the forests meant that he had to push up to set himself up for charges, only to be either countercharged next turn, or forced to fight a bunch of stubborn dryads in the woods which largely went nowhere.

Throughout he course of the match, I was absolutely stunned at the level of board control we have. I put up about 2 woods in the third and 4th turn, making 5 on the board in total. Between teleports, summoning and units with relatively high movement speed, there wasn’t anything I couldn’t reach in a turn, turn and a half anywhere on the board. That made it very easy for me to isolate and destroy dangerous units without posing much risk to my army as a whole. I ended up just about tabling him in the top of the 5th, when he conceded. Over the course of the match, i lost 3 units of 5x spites and 1 unit of t-revs. Maybe 3-4 drayds and 1 hunter. The games outcome really only was fought over 2 objectives (despite their being 4 on the board). Those two objectives changed hands 2-3 times between them, with the final steal coming from T-revs turn 3 which ended up being the score needed to push me ahead for the rest of the game 9have I mentioned how much I love T-revs?). Combat-wise I took everything he had off the board and won handily when my opponent conceded turn 5: 13-10. 

 Then entire match was pretty much a textbook account of what makes us so difficult to fight. I was able to dictate when and where I got into combat, only picking fights I knew I could easily win (i.e. drycha frozen kernel-ing a unit of 40 clan rats was pretty funny). Screened Scythe hunters backed by an Archy is also no joke. 

Tree’s attacking when spells are cast works as well as it ever did, dealing a significant amount of damage throughout the course of the game. Likewise, having the worm function as a roving MW generator, blocking access to forest made life pretty rough for his Stormfeinds. They couldn’t shoot into the forest since they were LoS blocked, and they couldn’t really charge being blocked by the endless spell. 

Winterleaf’s trait is also very satisfying to play with, and also fairly intmidating. Having extra hits on 6’s made up for the hunters only have 3 attacks, (having the archy buff helped a lot too).

All in all I’m really pleased with how the book performed. It was a friendly game on both sides, but entirely taking an army of 160 or so models off the table is nothing to sneeze at even in a friendly game.  

Thanks for the write up. I definitely agree with you in many ways. I played a similar list vs a Bonesplittas army with 3-4x the number of wounds I had and was stunned to see it all dead by turn 5. We definitely got more brutal.

I have to think that you were not playing with much terrain. In my experience, you can very rarely squeeze in more than two woods on a table. This really limits all those advantages that you rightly identify. It makes me increasingly think Dreadwood may be the way forward.

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On 8/16/2019 at 3:23 PM, Pennydude said:

Thank you!  I'm still torn between Treelord and 3 Sword-noths.  If my wyldwoods get shut down, my Treelord becomes much worse than Sword-noths since it can teleport on its own.   I'm wondering if I'm putting too much stock in that ability and the stomp over the resiliency of Swords.  Having more Kurnoths means I can run them next to Drycha to grant the TLA's  command ability to make Drycha not as squishy.   Any suggestions?

Well your list doesn't have alot of bodies so maybe the extra 3 hunters may be useful,  depending on how aggressive you are pushing the bow hunters.

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Drycha is indeed a beast. I have had her dishing out about 10+ damage per shooting phase without issue. Then again, I tried running Gnarlroot, giving her re-rolls of 1, fishing for even more 6:s. Along with Alarielle and Durthu / TLA / 3 Kurnoth Bows you generally have enough firepower to take out a monster per turn.

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19 hours ago, Trevelyan said:

It doesn’t change that much. Most other spells do require LoS, and while adding 6” to the Wyldwood summon range is nice, wholly within 30” of a model bunkered back in a safe zone (assuming your opponent doesn’t have anything to render that zone less safe) is far less flexible than it sounds. You’re investing a lot of points into that trick for potentially very limited payoff given that any caster more than 6” away from the vortex (i.e. every other caster you’ve got) can cast the same summon in more places. 

It’s not nothing, but it is a classic case of a trick that is almost certainly far better in theory than in practice and you likely don’t gain enough benefit from the Vortex once the whole engine is running to justify the cost of taking it. 

If you set aside the whole “wouldn’t it be nice to be sitting in a wyldwood on a Balewind Vortex with Throne of Vines up and consistently summoning new Wyldwoods and Dryads” and think about the practical issues, the cracks start to show. You need a round or two to set it up - Vortex gives you an extra cast, but you still want to cast Throne of Vines and be summoning Dryads as often as possible, plus summon the Vortex itself. What’s the plan to get it all up and running in a timeframe where you really benefit? You might be able to invest in even more support to further increase your casting rate, but that ups the cost considerably. 

 

The Difference being, of course, that in this case, the character will have the chalice of Nectar which makes casting significantly more reliable. Throne of vines is of little use on a Branchwraith in this case, unless no more woods are needed, in which case it can be used to make the summoning even less likely to fail. It also increases the range of the summoning by 6", right? For 40 points that could be nice.

Then there could be a plan B use for it, making a Wychbomb in case of an MSU army.

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2 quick questions:

1. Are kurnoth hunters with scythes even still worth it compared to greatswords? Their Damage per model is lower against every possible target (even before the mortal wounds abilitiy of the swords the scythes only barely pull ahead against 3+ and 2+ saves) but they do have an extra inch of range

2. Is there any goo reason to give a tree revenant scion an enchanted blade. Before anything else, both weapons have the same damage output, but with Martial memories you get one reroll to hit or wound per phase, which is better on an attack that deal 2 damage than on an attack that deals 1 damage.

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1 I love my scythe hunters. They can get several more models in range in units of 6 than could 2x3 or 1x6 sword hunters. And in a big block they do better with the Archrevenant buff or frozen Kernal. I use 1x6 hunters +1 arch revenant in every list and have yet to be disappointed. They 1 shotted archeon with full rerolls last game. I don't think swords could have done the same. Even with his giant base I don't think they could all fit. They definitely have uses, just require more of a plan than swords. I've also used them to fight over dryads to good effect.

 

2 in general more attacks will be less swingy than more damage although the rerolls help so maybe there is something there. Mine tend to die as soon as they fight anything anyway so what I equipped doesn't seem to matter much either way.

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Hey!

Can anyone tell me in which scenario would you buff Drycha's Squirmlings over the Flitterfuries? Both are Missile weapons but the Squirmlings' 2" range  means you only get to use them in melee when there is a chance they are already nerfed because of incoming damage.

Am I missing something?

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1 hour ago, Isabel said:

2 quick questions:

1. Are kurnoth hunters with scythes even still worth it compared to greatswords?

2. Is there any goo reason to give a tree revenant scion an enchanted blade.

1. has been discussed at length in the last few pages. Short version is they you take scythes in units of 6 and swords in units of 3. Longer version is that AoS isn’t a game where you just compare abstract damage calculations to determine a winner, and an extra inch range has both direct and indirect benefits. To put it another way, why do you suppose GW saw fit to buff the swords and not the scythes if the scythes didn’t have significant advantages in play? 

2. you’re only looking at a single roll and comparing the benefits of successfully rerolling into 2 damage rather than 1. In practice, the extra attacks from the blade result in a more consistent damage output. The single reroll in the combat phase isn’t really a game changer for the unit anyway, and is probably best kept for a save roll. Plus it’s more convenient to roll more of the same attack as the rest of the unit than to single out the unit leader for discrete rolls in each combat. 

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2 hours ago, romhi said:

Hey!

Can anyone tell me in which scenario would you buff Drycha's Squirmlings over the Flitterfuries? Both are Missile weapons but the Squirmlings' 2" range  means you only get to use them in melee when there is a chance they are already nerfed because of incoming damage.

Am I missing something?

Yea squirmlings are melee.

Its is frequently a tricky decision for me to choose Embittered or Enraged though. I always go with the Flitterfly buff for Turn 1, and then switch to  Squirmlings buff for the remainder of the battle. Drycha is pretty fast so she frequently finds herself in combat by turn 2. 

Focusing on Flitterflies can keep Drycha alive longer, but buffing Squirmlings is much more efficient since it gives her the potential to do 26 attacks in both your turn and your opponents turn.  When combined with Gnarlroot or Winterleaf, she can pump out an insane amount of damage. 

I have actually grown to prefer her over Durthu lately.

 

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5 hours ago, Isabel said:

1. Are kurnoth hunters with scythes even still worth it compared to greatswords? Their Damage per model is lower against every possible target (even before the mortal wounds abilitiy of the swords the scythes only barely pull ahead against 3+ and 2+ saves) but they do have an extra inch of range

The MW bonus of Swords made them more on par but Reach and Rend are still too valuable of stats/abilities to ignore.  I *may* run Swords once in a while but I would always choose 6-Scythes first. 

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6 hours ago, Popisdead said:

The MW bonus of Swords made them more on par but Reach and Rend are still too valuable of stats/abilities to ignore.  I *may* run Swords once in a while but I would always choose 6-Scythes first. 

i keep hearing about how rend is so great. I get the reach part 3 scythes are better than 2 swords, but the rend itself doesnt make up for the extra attack and the MW bonus, because even against 2+ saves a sword still has better damage.

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19 hours ago, The World Tree said:

Thanks for the write up. I definitely agree with you in many ways. I played a similar list vs a Bonesplittas army with 3-4x the number of wounds I had and was stunned to see it all dead by turn 5. We definitely got more brutal.

I have to think that you were not playing with much terrain. In my experience, you can very rarely squeeze in more than two woods on a table. This really limits all those advantages that you rightly identify. It makes me increasingly think Dreadwood may be the way forward.

We used 6 very large pieces of terrain, so I’m fairly convinced that the footprint of said terrain was similar enough to the footprint of terrain in the GHB matched play rules that I feel comfortable saying it was “comparable”.

Notice that I did say that I wasn’t always able to get my woods exactly where I wanted them. 3 times out of the 5 I had to put the wood down in a way that wasn’t immediately useful. What I did find was that those “non-optimum” wood drops got more useful as the game moved along; Some units moved around and the general balance of power on the board generally shifted.  

Seems to me to that the basic approach of, “I have no more useful spells to cast so I might as well get some woods on the table” is the best way to approach getting the woods out. Sure throwing down a wood at the edge of the board  isn’t immediately helpful, but in the last 2 turns they might provide you with the mobility needed to lock down an objective or take out a key support unit. 

 

1 hour ago, Isabel said:

i keep hearing about how rend is so great. I get the reach part 3 scythes are better than 2 swords, but the rend itself doesnt make up for the extra attack and the MW bonus, because even against 2+ saves a sword still has better damage.


-2 rend is nothing to sneeze at. It also helps that scythes usually travel in groups greater than 3. Between 6 scythes, arch rev’s command ability and the rr 1’s aura, and winterleaf adding hits on 6’s, my 6 hunters were regularly dishing out 20-25 wounds at -2 rend. Sure sword hunters might put out a bit more, but I was using old woods, which means positioning hunters around the trees. 

While the new woods have a much more flexible footprint, the trees on the old forests are still super useful for denying your opponent base 2 base contact. Here 2” reach on the scythes really shine: you can limit your unit to unit contact to a handful of models, still get your full (or nearly so) number of attacks and deny your opponent half of his attacks. They are powerful enough together I’m considering using both types of forests in future battles.   

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6 hours ago, Isabel said:

i keep hearing about how rend is so great. I get the reach part 3 scythes are better than 2 swords, but the rend itself doesnt make up for the extra attack and the MW bonus, because even against 2+ saves a sword still has better damage.

No one has said that the extra rend alone makes up for the MW and the extra attack.

The reach is also a significant part of the equation, enabling bigger units to operate with ease (which has further synergy with available buffs) and more flexibility piling in under tanglethorn thickets. 

Very few people disagree that 3 swords are better in most cases than 3 scythes. But most people also find that 6 scythes are better than 6 swords, because a mini with 4 attacks that can’t get into range of an enemy model doesn’t contribute much. 

Whether 6 scythes is better than 2x3 swords is about the only point where there isn’t a clear consensus, although there are strong arguments in favour of the scythes there. 

But if you disagree and think that you can run the swords better then go for it. It’s your list. 

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Good morning everybody, what do you think about this list?

Glade: Gnarloot

Branchwraith(80)    Spiritsong Stave

                                             Throne of Vines

TLA(300) General: Nurtured by magic

                                            The vesperal gem 

                                             Regrowth

TLA(300)                        Chalice of nectar   

                                               Treesong

Drycha(320)                   Dwellers below 

 

Treelord(200)

Kurnoth Hunters(Swords)(200) 1x3

Spite Revenant(60) 1x5

Spite Revenant(60) 1x5

Spite Revenant(120) 1x10

 

Lords of the clan (60)

Outcast(100)

Endless spells:

Chronomantic Cogs(80)

Spiteswarm Hive(50)

Gladewyrm(30)

Vengeful Skullroot(40)

2000/2000 with 2 extra CP

 

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5 hours ago, Milo said:

Good morning everybody, what do you think about this list?

 

 

I like your theme of a magical army, but I think you lack the heavy hitters to push bodies off objectives in a competitive format. 

As it stands, only Drycha and your 3 Hunters are real threats in combat. Two TLA are a bit redunant, as they don't compliment each other very well. I recommend you swap one for something like more hunters or Durthu if you can find the points.

Ancients are in a weird place right now, as a vanilla Treelord + Branchwraith do the same job but better. (Treelord fights better and Branchwraith has better spell and easier to protect). They are also also 20pts cheaper! 

I would also recommend  you drop some of the 360 points in spells/battalions and add more bodies. 

Hope this helps!

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4 hours ago, Landohammer said:

I like your theme of a magical army, but I think you lack the heavy hitters to push bodies off objectives in a competitive format. 

As it stands, only Drycha and your 3 Hunters are real threats in combat. Two TLA are a bit redunant, as they don't compliment each other very well. I recommend you swap one for something like more hunters or Durthu if you can find the points.

Ancients are in a weird place right now, as a vanilla Treelord + Branchwraith do the same job but better. (Treelord fights better and Branchwraith has better spell and easier to protect). They are also also 20pts cheaper! 

I would also recommend  you drop some of the 360 points in spells/battalions and add more bodies. 

Hope this helps!

I agree 4 casters and 4 endless spells seems overkill. And sure he has some nice teleport options and will get his charge in.. but there isn't that much to charge with.. so even a completely succesfull alpha strike will probably mean too little damage is done to prevent a serious counter attack which this small alpha strike force won't survive long enough to do more damage.: your army is probably split up in a little piece they can destroy with their whole army before taking on the rest. 

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