Nighthaunt Special Character Rules Revealed - Thoughts?

[themortalgod]

So Gw revealed the warscrolls for the 3 special characters and I've got pretty mixed feelings. ( https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/06/25/25th-june-heroes-of-the-nighthauntgw-homepage-post-4/)

- Lady Olynder's rules are awesome. She will be especially strong in spirit host based armies where her spell and command abilties can get really great mileage.

- Kurdoss feels like an almost "must-take", that ability to steal enemy CP just feels too strong to ignore. It could completely shift a game

- Rekeinor feels hopelessly "meh", sweet model but he doesn't bring much. He doesn't provide much synergy and his damage output is pretty mediocre at best


All that said, them all having only 7 wounds and no MW protection concerns me. I feel like they will be sitting ducks to MW sniping and will be very difficult to keep alive. I know my Tzeentch army would find it laughable how easy it would be to remove any of these from the board super early in the game.

Also note the change of wording for "frightful touch" on Rekeinor. I suspect this wording will be across the entire army meaning we can't spam +1 to hit to make spirit hosts super strong. 

Thoughts?

[Rod]

well lady olynder its super good, not so sure about the other two heros.  

one thing that struck me , all mortal wounds made by attacks are triggered by an unmodified roll of  6 ,  not 6+ like hexwraits or spirits and that suck

[themortalgod]

Just now, Rod said:

well the lady olynder its super good, not so sure about the other two heros.  

one thing that struck me , all mortal wounds made by attacks are triggered by an unmodified roll of  6 ,  not 6+ like hexwraits or spirits and that suck

exactly, though, expect the new rule text to apply to be added to existing warscrolls too. Though, tbh, even though it hurts combo potential, it also means hexwraiths and spirit hosts don;t become useless vs -1 to hit.

[Rod]

5 minutes ago, themortalgod said:

exactly, though, expect the new rule text to apply to be added to existing warscrolls too. Though, tbh, even though it hurts combo potential, it also means hexwraiths and spirit hosts don;t become useless vs -1 to hit.

thats true, but the  combo between Keldrek: Knight of Shrouds and other nighthaunt units its gone though =(

[themortalgod]

Just now, Rod said:

thats true, but the  combo between Keldrek: Knight of Shrouds and other nighthaunt units its gone though =(

Yeah, but i think that combo has too much potential to do stupid things so im not surprised they removed it.

[Nevar]

14 minutes ago, Rod said:

thats true, but the  combo between Keldrek: Knight of Shrouds and other nighthaunt units its gone though =(

Still good for things like Grimghasts and stuff to make them hit on 3s and wound on 3s with all kinds of rerolls.

[Nuradin]

If the unmodified 6 is applied to other factions a lot of the synergies that many armies rely upon will change! So will definitely be interesting to follow how this pans out! I dont like anything that removes synergies, since synergies is what really tickles me  However, I understand that some synergies are just stupidly overpowered!

[Nevar]

5 minutes ago, Nuradin said:

If the unmodified 6 is applied to other factions a lot of the synergies that many armies rely upon will change! So will definitely be interesting to follow how this pans out! I dont like anything that removes synergies, since synergies is what really tickles me  However, I understand that some synergies are just stupidly overpowered!

I would also argue that it is an overall buff to our Nighthaunt as opposed to a nerf as it makes out units like Spirit Hosts not so susceptible to -1 to hit debuffs.

[Nuradin]

7 minutes ago, Nevar said:

I would also argue that it is an overall buff to our Nighthaunt as opposed to a nerf as it makes out units like Spirit Hosts not so susceptible to -1 to hit debuffs.

That is a really good point that I have completely failed to see!
It also makes Spirit Hosts less reliant on having heroes closeby, and thus making them better at running a few skirmishes off to the sides. 
A really good points, Nevar; one that made me more hyped about the faction!

[Captain Roderick]

I gotta say that making frightful touch an unmodified 6 will also affect my list composition in a pro-nighthaunt way. 

My main opponent is a nurgle player, and he's planning on doing that battalion where everyone gets -1 to hit. I'd completely dropped spirit hosts and hexwraiths from my plans as a result. If this becomes the rule across the board, I'll definitely get some more ghosty things ?

[Oogje]

44 minutes ago, Captain Roderick said:

I gotta say that making frightful touch an unmodified 6 will also affect my list composition in a pro-nighthaunt way. 

My main opponent is a nurgle player, and he's planning on doing that battalion where everyone gets -1 to hit. I'd completely dropped spirit hosts and hexwraiths from my plans as a result. If this becomes the rule across the board, I'll definitely get some more ghosty things ?

Although I'm a bit scared on how to counter act those terrible plague knights with those d6 hits 

[Urauloth]

I was kind of expecting a switch to unmodified 6s and I don't think it's bad at all. You can't shut off the MW potential of FT units with debuffs now, and rerolls - which are easier to get than ever - still give them a considerable buff.

As for the heroes, I'm too hyped about the reveal of Reikinor's model to evaluate him fairly, but the Craven King seems great. A 33% chance to steal a command point every battle round just by being on the board is very powerful and something your opponent has to react to. He's strong in combat, too, clearly, but the mileage you'll get out of that is probably going to vary a lot since he only moves 6". His price tag is the big downside, I guess. Is he too easy to kill for the points you pay for his ability?

I like the Mortarch's abilities a lot, but even with the ability to heal herself, 7W is very fragile. She has do defence against mortal wounds at all, barring allegiance abilities. This is true of the others, as well, but she's an even bigger investment than Valentian. 

[TheOtherJosh]

2 hours ago, Captain Roderick said:

I gotta say that making frightful touch an unmodified 6 will also affect my list composition in a pro-nighthaunt way. 

And that makes Screamers of Tzeentch even more awesome when near a Daemon hero of Tzeentch ... because those natural 6’s become 1’s.

[Aelfric]

10 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

And that makes Screamers of Tzeentch even more awesome when near a Daemon hero of Tzeentch ... because those natural 6’s become 1’s.

But isn't that a modification, so the mortal wounds should still go off first.

[themortalgod]

27 minutes ago, Urauloth said:

I was kind of expecting a switch to unmodified 6s and I don't think it's bad at all. You can't shut off the MW potential of FT units with debuffs now, and rerolls - which are easier to get than ever - still give them a considerable buff.

As for the heroes, I'm too hyped about the reveal of Reikinor's model to evaluate him fairly, but the Craven King seems great. A 33% chance to steal a command point every battle round just by being on the board is very powerful and something your opponent has to react to. He's strong in combat, too, clearly, but the mileage you'll get out of that is probably going to vary a lot since he only moves 6". His price tag is the big downside, I guess. Is he too easy to kill for the points you pay for his ability?

I like the Mortarch's abilities a lot, but even with the ability to heal herself, 7W is very fragile. She has do defence against mortal wounds at all, barring allegiance abilities. This is true of the others, as well, but she's an even bigger investment than Valentian. 

We know the pts costs for them? What are they?

But yeah, it seems like hero fragility is going to be a huge problem across NH as a whole. I feel like it was a bit lost on GW that look out sir doesn't actually really address the hero sniping problem as most hero sniping comes from MWs.

[themortalgod]

7 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

But isn't that a modification, so the mortal wounds should still go off first.

Yup, not really on topic, but imo screamers still suck, event at 100pts. 

[TheOtherJosh]

4 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

But isn't that a modification, so the mortal wounds should still go off first.

You’re treating hit rolls of 6 as hit rolls of 1 when attacking them when they’re within 9” of a hero unit.

Locus of Change

Whilst this unit is within 9" of any TZEENTCH DAEMON HEROES from your army, [...] if an enemy model targets such a unit, your opponent must treat any hit rolls of 6 as hit rolls of 1 instead.

 

[Nuradin]

8 minutes ago, themortalgod said:

We know the pts costs for them? What are they?

But yeah, it seems like hero fragility is going to be a huge problem across NH as a whole. I feel like it was a bit lost on GW that look out sir doesn't actually really address the hero sniping problem as most hero sniping comes from MWs.

The MW problem may be adressed in the book, which is why I am really looking forward to it. What their allegiance traits are and what sort of battalions they will have access to. So much information we still don't have. The MW problem will probably not be adressed in the book, since every army needs a downside in one way or an other. And Lady Olynder is according to me really cheap for what she brings to the table. Worst case scenario is that she gets sniped first round, but then the opponent will have wasted quite a lot of damage to get her off the board..  damage that you will take advantage of later when your units smashes into their enemies. Since here presence on the board is very noticable your opponent is kind of forced to react.. and 7 wounds is just on that sweet spot where you think "I can probably snipe that in one turn" and "oh, damn.. I thought I could snipe that, but it still survived.. damn those dice! damn them straight to helll!"
And if you don't kill her in one turn she can just heal back up to max wounds again and your opponent will have to do the whole process over again. Granted, this is all very theoretical..

[Captain Roderick]

5 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

You’re treating hit rolls of 6 as hit rolls of 1 when attacking them when they’re within 9” of a hero unit.

Locus of Change

Whilst this unit is within 9" of any TZEENTCH DAEMON HEROES from your army, [...] if an enemy model targets such a unit, your opponent must treat any hit rolls of 6 as hit rolls of 1 instead.

 

It needs faq-ing because that's messy. You've still rolled an unmodified 6, the shift to 1 happens after. But I can see it being argued the other way too. 

[Nevar]

1 minute ago, Nuradin said:

The MW problem may be adressed in the book, which is why I am really looking forward to it. What their allegiance traits are and what sort of battalions they will have access to. So much information we still don't have. The MW problem will probably not be adressed in the book, since every army needs a downside in one way or an other. And Lady Olynder is according to me really cheap for what she brings to the table. Worst case scenario is that she gets sniped first round, but then the opponent will have wasted quite a lot of damage to get her off the board..  damage that you will take advantage of later when your units smashes into their enemies. Since here presence on the board is very noticable your opponent is kind of forced to react.. and 7 wounds is just on that sweet spot where you think "I can probably snipe that in one turn" and "oh, damn.. I thought I could snipe that, but it still survived.. damn those dice! damn them straight to helll!"
And if you don't kill her in one turn she can just heal back up to max wounds again and your opponent will have to do the whole process over again. Granted, this is all very theoretical..

The foot Mr.Shrouds only has 5 wounds and I used him against a very shooty Stormcast player with the new rules.  He survived the concentrated firepower of Stormcast rapid fire crossbows with three of his wounds still remaining.  I know dice play a role, but odd were that he would die before Look Out Sir, and odds were he would survive after those rolls.  Stopping hits is far superior to stopping wounds or making saves, and Lady Olynder isn't a monster so she can use Look Out Sir to help keep her alive from all normal shooting.  That removes most of the hero sniping capabilities from our concern leaving only MW sniping and most of those are spells which we can try to unbind.

There will definately be things like the dirty snowball, but those are outliers that we can't plan everything around.

[Nuradin]

3 minutes ago, Nevar said:

The foot Mr.Shrouds only has 5 wounds and I used him against a very shooty Stormcast player with the new rules.  He survived the concentrated firepower of Stormcast rapid fire crossbows with three of his wounds still remaining.  I know dice play a role, but odd were that he would die before Look Out Sir, and odds were he would survive after those rolls.  Stopping hits is far superior to stopping wounds or making saves, and Lady Olynder isn't a monster so she can use Look Out Sir to help keep her alive from all normal shooting.  That removes most of the hero sniping capabilities from our concern leaving only MW sniping and most of those are spells which we can try to unbind.

There will definately be things like the dirty snowball, but those are outliers that we can't plan everything around.

Good point!

[TheOtherJosh]

10 minutes ago, Captain Roderick said:

It needs faq-ing because that's messy. You've still rolled an unmodified 6, the shift to 1 happens after. But I can see it being argued the other way too. 

Current faq states:

“Q: When using the Screamers of Tzeentch’s Locus of Change ability, do you change hit rolls of 6 to hit rolls of 1 before or after re-rolls and modifiers have been applied?
A: Before. (A ‘roll’ is the value of the dice before re-rolls and modifiers have been used.)”

Basically you have two chances to roll a 1 when Fighting screamers in range of a Tz Daemon hero. Because you treat the to hit roll of a 6 as if you rolled a 1... the mortal wound doesn’t happen.

[Lemon Knuckles]

Doesn't that just mean that you change unmodified to hit rolls of 6 to 1, and not modified to hit rolls of 6?  And that any modifiers can be applied to the 1?

I don't read anything in that statement that suggest the change itself isn't a modification.  

**re-reading it again, and I think I see your point.  I was interpreting "modifier" as literally something that changes something, when in game terms it means something narrower and more specific?

[TheOtherJosh]

24 minutes ago, Lemon Knuckles said:

Doesn't that just mean that you change unmodified to hit rolls of 6 to 1, and not modified to hit rolls of 6?  And that any modifiers can be applied to the 1?

 I don't read anything in that statement that suggest the change itself isn't a modification.  

**re-reading it again, and I think I see your point.  I was interpreting "modifier" as literally something that changes something, when in game terms it means something narrower and more specific?

That’s actually the key piece of the Mortal Wounds change. The change from “6+“ to “6” implies that you only get a single 1in6 chance for that MW (ie it isn’t a 6+ which implies that it works after modifiers). It doesn’t matter how much +hit you give them, you only have 16.7% chance per hit roll for that MW.

So, while it can’t be +/- modified to miss ... something that changes what you treat the unmodified roll as would. It is an interesting change that makes the MW mechanic powerful for that ability... but like any game of Rock/Paper/Scissors/Bomb there is some form of counter. (And they’re now using the wording that they described in the GHB and FAQ’s regarding changes to unmodified rolls.)

[themortalgod]

41 minutes ago, Nevar said:

The foot Mr.Shrouds only has 5 wounds and I used him against a very shooty Stormcast player with the new rules.  He survived the concentrated firepower of Stormcast rapid fire crossbows with three of his wounds still remaining.  I know dice play a role, but odd were that he would die before Look Out Sir, and odds were he would survive after those rolls.  Stopping hits is far superior to stopping wounds or making saves, and Lady Olynder isn't a monster so she can use Look Out Sir to help keep her alive from all normal shooting.  That removes most of the hero sniping capabilities from our concern leaving only MW sniping and most of those are spells which we can try to unbind.

There will definately be things like the dirty snowball, but those are outliers that we can't plan everything around.

Personally, most of my heroes die to mortal wounds from spells during AoS games. Yeah we can try to unbind, but magic armies like Tzeentch or Sacrament will laugh at NH low odds dispel attempts. NH may stop 1 or 2 but odds are well against us to protect our squishy heroes unless the faction gets some other rules to stop the sniping.

Imo the look out sir rule wasn't enough. It was sorta like GW deciding armies with heavy shooting should struggle to kill heroes but armies with heavy magic should not. Personally, I would have made look out sir also do -2 to casting attempts for spells that cause mortal wounds targeting heroes near units.

Also, statistically, in almost all cases, -1 to be hit is the same as having 1 higher save so I wouldn't consider it far superior. The only situation where -1 to hit is better is when it can prevent additional effects on say 6s. So in some cases, it is superior, in most cases it is statistically the same. (or I suppose vs very high rend where the +1 save means nothing, though not relevant for NH)