Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Mirage8112]

17 hours ago, Davariel said:

I want to like Sisters of the Watch... but their point cost for 10 wounds with only a 5+ save really concerns me. Their entire warscroll seems to be at odds with itself - they get an extra attack if they don't move, but only have an average range; they get to shoot when charged... but they're so fragile and expensive they don't want to be anywhere near combat.

 
There are quite a few units in the game that have warscrolls that require some creativity to get them to work right. Sisters of the watch is definitely one of them (Tzaangor Enlightened would be another one of them). Basically you'd need to set them up with a screen of some sort. Dryads would be the most ideal, and with a unit of 30, it would be easy to position them in a "U" shape, with the SotW in the center.  

Ideally you'd want to create a "long head" formation, something like this:

 

30 dryads will have difficulty getting completely situated in a WW as it is, so you're not losing anything by setting the unit up this way. Basically, you're daring the enemy to charge the block. If you set up at 15", you're well within range to shoot at least once. If the enemy takes the bait and charges, he won't be able to get a deep enough charge to completely avoid ending his charge within a 1/2" of the SotW, and you'll get a second chance to shoot. If he opts to get a we bit closer to avoid the trap, you get to shoot twice in the next turn. If he tries to weather the shots, it's pretty likely he'll only be able to get 1-2 models in range to attack the SotW, which will greatly reduce their casualty rate since they're likely to only have to weather 3-5 attacks instead of 10-20. 

You could also set it up like this, and further reduce the amount of incoming fire the unit will face. 




This way, the enemy will be forced to take his entire unit through the woods on the charge, and will likely be stuck fighting in the forest giving the spellcaster an opportunity to set the woods on them*. Plus, the dryads themselves will benefit from the -1 to hit, and the charging unit will not receive cover on the turn they charge. 

Using them in a combination like this, basically adds shooting to your dryad blob, allowing them to threaten anything at a 18" range with 20 shots as opposed to just "standing there" looking intimidating. It also adds to our "area denial" army make-up by further increasing the area of the board that's dangerous for opponents to enter into without taking damage. 

A hallmark of our army is making the enemy fight in places that are disadvantageous to them and advantageous for us. Allying in a unit that prevents an enemy from ignoring a dryad bunker shouldn't be overlooked. 

*It would also be a good idea to replace the Branchwytch/wraith with a spellweaver in this scenario, as her "blessing of life" spell can bring back D3 slain wanderers to the sisters unit. That way you can replenish any loses from the charge, and still have the same chance for the wood to nomnomnom whatever is unfortunate enough to be standing within 1" of them. 

[Aezeal]

In both those examples the enemy could easily avoid the sow shots by keeping 1 model slightly back. For the rest the strategy seems good to avoid casualties.

[Aezeal]

On 13-9-2017 at 7:21 AM, Davariel said:

I want to like Sisters of the Watch... but their point cost for 10 wounds with only a 5+ save really concerns me. Their entire warscroll seems to be at odds with itself - they get an extra attack if they don't move, but only have an average range; they get to shoot when charged... but they're so fragile and expensive they don't want to be anywhere near combat.

I'm not convinced that bow hunters are great at their current points either (that 4+ to hit...), but they just seem to offer so much more. They have solid durability, making them decent objective holders/blockers. They've got some rend. Their immense 30" range is always a psychological factor. Not to mention the fantastic mileage they can get out of stuff like cover and the Gnarlroot spell.

Hunters just seem so much more versatile and tactically useful that I can't imagine ever taking SotW over them. The sisters by contrast just seem painfully one-dimensional.

Hunters are long range assassins,  sotw do more damage but less likely to be able to target buffin chars etc. And general damage dealing melee hunters probably do better.

[Paul G]

23 hours ago, Dragon10 said:

Can hunters get anything to re roll hits or +1 to hit 

Hurricanum is great for +1 to hit, not sure about it with the new points though!

[Freejack02]

6 hours ago, Aezeal said:

In both those examples the enemy could easily avoid the sow shots by keeping 1 model slightly back.

Exactly this. Regarding the first situation: now, not only are the sotw now engaged in melee, but the enemy is free to pile-in as they wish, having already avoided the charge-move shooting ability. They activate as many as possible on the sotw, who are quite fragile, and the rest on dryads (which are moderately tough in this situation). The retaliations are going to consist of whatever Dryads can pile-in, and a couple of sotw sword attacks that are quite poor. Doesn't seem like a good strategy to me?

 

I feel like trying to screen them is the best way to lose out on 'Loose Until the Last', as it gives the enemy much more freedom to avoid ending a charge within .5". To me, they simply aren't worth the points.  

[Mirage8112]

9 hours ago, Aezeal said:

In both those examples the enemy could easily avoid the sow shots by keeping 1 model slightly back.

3 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

Exactly this. Regarding the first situation: now, not only are the sotw now engaged in melee, but the enemy is free to pile-in as they wish, having already avoided the charge-move shooting ability. They activate as many as possible on the sotw, who are quite fragile, and the rest on dryads (which are moderately tough in this situation). 

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how keeping "1 model slightly further back"  would make any difference. Since the lead model in the charge (i.e. the one needed to come within 1/2" of a charged unit) can't come within 1/2" inch of the dryads without also coming within 1/2" of the sisters; I.e. you can't hold the lead model back because you would fail the charge. 

If the the charging enemies are 15" away, and manage to move forward and complete the charge, they can't really engage one unit without coming within 1/2" of the other. It is possible that they could sort of "funnel" their troops around the sides to avoid coming within 1/2" of the SotW, but it's not at all likely if it's a 8-9" charge (that's why it's so important that you pick your distance to target depending on the movement of the enemy target, for this scenario, I'm assuming the target unit has a movement of 7-8" or so). 

And let's say, for the sake of argument, that the charging unit is able to avoid coming within 1/2" of the Sisters but is close enough that they can pile in and activate a few models on the sisters. The absolute best they hope for in this situation is 2 models in range to attack (assuming a 1" attack range and 2 attacks apiece or so). After hit/wound/save rolls, the Sisters would be likely to lose 1 model. Maybe 2. (Math says 1.75 models not assuming mystic shield). That's not really enough to worry about battleshock, plus, you can remove the casualties from the front, and the sisters will no longer be in combat. Then,  as I mentioned above, if you have an allied Spellsinger nearby, you can bring D3 models back in your next hero phase (and it's only a casting value of 5). And now, you have successfully baited the enemy unit into attacking a very resilient unit of 30 dryads, you have a unit of sisters at full strength shooting twice in the next shooting round and your enemy can't do a damn thing about it. 

And again, it's not as if you absolutely have to make "loose until the last" work for the unit to be a viable addition to the army. It's main effect is to discourage a charge against the SotW (which is a decent trade off considering how fragile they are). 

3 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

The retaliations are going to consist of whatever Dryads can pile-in, and a couple of sotw sword attacks that are quite poor. Doesn't seem like a good strategy to me?

Actually forcing an enemy unit to charge through a wyldwood, (losing 2-3 models in the process) into a tarpit of dryads, while eating 2-3 rounds of arrow fire plus return attacks from the dryads and possible mortal wounds from spell casting/the forest would be terribly devastating for whatever was unfortunate enough to find itself in that position. Likewise if they refused to take the bait, you could just sit there and shoot them all day without any real fear of the sisters getting wiped from combat. 
 

3 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

I feel like trying to screen them is the best way to lose out on 'Loose Until the Last', as it gives the enemy much more freedom to avoid ending a charge within .5"

Using them in combination with type of screen does work, and I've used this technique in the past with great success. 

It works because it puts the enemy in a rather difficult position; all the choices they could make are bad choices. They could try to do as you suggested and hope for a loooong charge so they can stay far enough away from the sisters to avoid getting shot on the charge; but in order to do that, they need to roll an 11-12 and they have to charge through the trees. They could instead, opt to move forward and get closer to reduce their charge range and guarantee that they avoid the sisters, but that puts them smack in the center of the woods for their charge, and it also allows the dryads to close ranks around the sisters AND sisters get double shots in the next turn. They could opt to take 2 turns to move within 3" of the bunker and then charge, that way only 1 model needs to actually charge (which avoids the wood problem). But if they do that, then they eat 2 additional rounds of double bow fire and the dryads close ranks around the sisters anyway. 

So that leaves us 5 possible choices the opponent could make:

Scenario 1: Try for a 11" charge through the woods to avoid the Sisters: (Only Lose 1-2 models from the forest but low chance of success. If the charge is failed, take 10 wounds from sisters next turn.)

Scenario 2: Complete an 8" charge through the woods, but activate the Sisters (Lose 1-2 models from the forest, and 5 wounds from sisters. Moderate chance of success. If the charge is failed, take 10 wounds from sisters next turn.) 

Scenario 3: Move for a closer charge next turn (through the woods), avoid the Sisters (Lose 1-2 models from the forest, D3 mortal wounds from spellsinger, 10 wounds from sisters next shooting phase, dryads close ranks on sisters to shield them from combat, possible D3 wounds from the forest if it activates.)

Scenario 4: Use 2 movement phases to ensure closest charge (no loss of models from the forest on the charge, 2D3 mortal wounds from Spellsinger, 2x10 wounds from sisters over 2 shooting phases, dryads close ranks on sisters to shield them from combat, possible 2xD3 wounds from the forest if it activates.)

Scenario 5: Decide not to charge at all. (Eat shooting the entire game from the sisters nestled in their bunker. Also a tough choice to make if the sisters are sitting on an objective.) 

I'm curious what you would do if you were in your enemies shoes: If you found yourself in his position above, which choice would you make? Would you bet your money on making an 11" charge? or if you were a Disciple of Tzeentch player, is it worth burning 2 Destiny Dice for a chance take out 1-2 Sisters who stand a good chance of coming back to life next hero phase? 

 

3 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

To me, they simply aren't worth the points.  

At 220pts, I wouldn't say they are mandatory, but are on par with glade guard. I like sisters because it basically takes the damage output of a 20 man glade guard unit and squeezes down into 10 models (with a few small tradeoffs.) I don't feel wanderers are a mandatory addition to our army, but the shooting they bring can be a nice addition in certain lists. 

Sometimes abilities aren't valuable because they actually work in game. They're valuable because they force your enemy to go out of their way to avoid them. If you know an enemy has 3 units of fanatics bunkered in a unit of night goblins, you aren't going to roll up and try to charge it with a unit of unsupported hunters. Likewise, you aren't going to send Alarielle toe-to-toe with Skarbrand if he's incandescent. The ability forces you alter your plans, so you can avoid it. None of the above 5 scenarios would be the same if you replaced the unit of Sisters with Glade Guard or bow Hunters, because they're no downside to charging right away. There's no shots to avoid, because neither Glade Guard or Hunters can shoot in the enemies shooting phase.

Again, not mandatory. But certainly viable if your inclined to play that way.   

[Freejack02]

Let me first say that I responded to your initial post after only really glancing at the diagram. Now that I've had a little more time to study it (and make a couple MS Paint changes), let's dive into what I was refuting: 

 

8 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Since the lead model in the charge (i.e. the one needed to come within 1/2" of a charged unit) can't come within 1/2" inch of the dryads without also coming within 1/2" of the sisters; I.e. you can't hold the lead model back because you would fail the charge. 

This image, along with the statement that "the enemy won't be able to get a deep enough charge to completely avoid ending his charge within a 1/2" of the SotW". It's simply not true, and that should be readily apparent.  So perhaps I am the one missing something, but the following image should easily illustrate what the enemy would do if they indeed decide to charge that massive concentration of troops. 

The enemy has charged, successfully, and is not within .5" of the SotW.  Dryad models 1,2,4, and 5 are all valid .5" targets. The enemy can then pile-in, cramming as many models between the gaps of the Dryads as possible and completely avoiding the Loose Until the Last ability. However I realize the actual arms they can bring to bear on the SotW will depend heavily on a few things. 1) base size of the enemy 2) range of weapons 3) distance between Dryads and SotW. Even with 32mm bases and a 1" range, the enemy can still pile-in 3 models on the lead SotW #3. If the Dryads are pressed to the SotW, every model that piles in will have enough range to hit beyond the Dryads, likely bringing down enough pain to destroy the SotW in one combat. 2" weapons also increase the odds greatly.

It's not a stretch to say that an average enemy unit - even given the completely defensive formation of the Dryads and SotW - can deal the necessary 7-10 wounds to eliminate the SotW in a single combat round. Especially if you consider that nearly 500 points of models are tied up in this scenario (giving the attacker a similar unit value). Again, I was simply stating that the presented formation looked fairly ineffective at protecting while completely neutering the SotW anti-charge mechanic. 

[Mirage8112]

19 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

This image, along with the statement that "the enemy won't be able to get a deep enough charge to completely avoid ending his charge within a 1/2" of the SotW". It's simply not true, and that should be readily apparent.  So perhaps I am the one missing something, but the following image should easily illustrate what the enemy would do if they indeed decide to charge that massive concentration of troops. 

I see what your saying. But I think you might have glanced over the fact that I mention this in the second post:

On 9/14/2017 at 10:43 AM, Mirage8112 said:

If the the charging enemies are 15" away... It is possible that they could sort of "funnel" their troops around the sides to avoid coming within 1/2" of the SotW, but it's not at all likely if it's a 8-9" charge (that's why it's so important that you pick your distance to target depending on the movement of the enemy target, for this scenario, I'm assuming the target unit has a movement of 7-8" or so). 

If the enemy unit is 15" away, they get 1 move before they can charge. Even with a movement of 7-8" (which is generous for an infantry unit, Reavers are move 6", Marauders are 6" as well. Most armored infantry move 5") They are still, facing a charge of 8-9". Now, I picked 15" as an arbitrary number, but you would obviously you would adjust this distance if you were facing something like Tzaangor (who can run and charge), or whipped bloodreavers or something similar, by lengthening that distance to 18" (still within shooting range of the sisters). 

The point is, you need to set the bunker up in such a way that the minimum roll needed to make the charge is about 8". So, after moving the diagram would look like this:



In order to come within 1/2", the enemy needs to roll at least an 8" charge. In order for the model marked "X" to reach model #5 in your diagram, you would need to roll a charge of at least 10". They can't roll 8" and pile in either, because sister activate based on where model ends the charge, not where it is after it finishes piling in. Basically your saying "they can avoid the sisters if they roll a 10" charge", and I totally agree. But my point is that a 10" charge isn't likely at all. Even if they roll a 9" charge, it's still not quite enough to keep them 1/2 away from the sisters. They would need to roll a 10 to even get into the position you're suggesting.

How confident are you that you would be able to make a 10" charge roll? Normally, if you failed the roll; no big deal. But in this case if you fail, you get shot by double sister shots next turn, and if you roll less than a 10, but more than an 8, you get shot on the charge. 

But lets say you get lucky, and you manage to roll that 10" charge (praise be to the dice gods!). 

19 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

The enemy has charged, successfully, and is not within .5" of the SotW.  Dryad models 1,2,4, and 5 are all valid .5" targets. The enemy can then pile-in, cramming as many models between the gaps of the Dryads as possible and completely avoiding the Loose Until the Last ability.

True! Continue... 
 

19 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

However I realize the actual arms they can bring to bear on the SotW will depend heavily on a few things. 1) base size of the enemy 2) range of weapons 3) distance between Dryads and SotW. 

You're correct that the amount of attacks that the enemy can bring to bear on the sisters depends on the above. You would of course, account for that when you set up the bunker (in the same way you accounted for the models movement and abilities when you set the bunker up to ensure the minimum charge needed was 8") In the diagram I drew, I accounted for an infantry unit, with a move of 7", and a 1" attack range. In the math I gave them similar attack profiles to the dryads (2 attacks 3's/4's with no rend) 

The point I would stress here, is that it's not as if your going to set up for a charge from Chaos Warriors and when combat rolls around they turn into a Carnosaur, or a full contingent of witch elves buffed by a hag on a cauldron of blood. If you've done your homework (or have the AoS app open) you should know what's coming across the table.  As I said above, the diagram I drew was just a rough guide of how to set up a relatively strong shooty bunker that is capable of taking advantage of how the rules interact. 
 

19 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

If the Dryads are pressed to the SotW, every model that piles in will have enough range to hit beyond the Dryads, likely bringing down enough pain to destroy the SotW in one combat. 2" weapons also increase the odds greatly.

Dryad bases are 1.25" across. So nobody is hitting over the dryads with a 1" attack range. If the enemy had a 2" attack range, you'd obviously give a wee bit more space. 
 

19 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

It's not a stretch to say that an average enemy unit - even given the completely defensive formation of the Dryads and SotW - can deal the necessary 7-10 wounds to eliminate the SotW in a single combat round.

7-10 wounds? You're joking right? Unless the "average enemy unit" is something like Ironguts with 3 attacks doing 3 damage apiece then just no. In my test runs of this, I've never seen an enemy be able to get more than 2 models in range to hit what's in the center. Even if they did, the absolute maximum they could get would be 3 models. With 2 attacks apiece, even 6 attacks ALL Hitting and ALL wounding and NONE being saved, does not equal 7-10 wounds. 

So,

If you are saying that the enemy can get around this formation by rolling a 10 on the charge, squeezing 3 models into a space for 2, hitting and wounding with all their attacks, after which the sisters fail all their saves, and subsequently roll a 5-6 battleshock; then yep. Ya got meh. P.S. If you can do that on demand, then there isn't a unit in the game that can stop you.  
 

19 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

Especially if you consider that nearly 500 points of models are tied up in this scenario (giving the attacker a similar unit value). 

I'd easily put 500 pts of models on an objective. I do it all the time. (Hell, in GHB16 I regularly put 20 dryads, an Ancient and a supporting spellcasters on objectives for a whopping cost of 640pts). But, I might also point out that your unit is now locked in combat with a unit of 30 dryads. Who are not exactly easy to remove. However, your unit of enchanted unicorns that never miss, never fail to wound, and have some sort of magical aura that causes all saving throw rolls to fail, should have no problem clearing that up in a turn or two....  
 

19 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

Again, I was simply stating that the presented formation looked fairly ineffective at protecting while completely neutering the SotW anti-charge mechanic. 

Yep. You did indeed show that under the most improbable of conditions it is possible to prevent the sisters from getting 10 shots off on the charge.

All snark aside, I appreciate where your coming from, but I still don't think your solution is probable. The main problem I have with it, is that I don't think any reasonable player would bank on making a 10" charge, especially when the penalty for failure is so high. Not to mention that upon making that charge, it's far more likely that the sisters would lose about 2 models (assuming 3 enemy models could get within combat range, which is a little bit of a stretch for 33mm bases. 25mm bases could do it, but they tend to have less attacks anyway). 

As I said above, if you really consider what might actually happen given the probability of 2D6 rolls, it's far more likely they'd lose 2-3 models rather than 7-10. And, of course, you'd remove them from the front and have the dryads pile-in to close ranks, protecting them from future attacks. Then they can shoot twice next turn. So thats still 14 shots doing 7 wounds so (8 if its vs a chaos unit) which is still a better damage output statistically (and more reliable) than hunters under the same circumstances. 

Going back just a bit to one of your earlier comments:
 

On 9/14/2017 at 7:45 AM, Freejack02 said:

To me, they simply aren't worth the points.  

This strategy is a "bait" strategy. Some players are not at all comfortable with type of play, because it is very possible that the bait will get a bite taken out of it. But bait strategies are super effective against most AoS players because the temptation to take a unit off the table is too much to bear. 

Take this scenario for example, the right choice it isn't to charge at all. In fact, the best choice to just to leave the bunker alone because anything that tries to take out the sisters will just get swarmed by the dryads, and likely be held there all game. (I usually use the subsequent pile in to surround the unit to prevent a retreat. Effectively holding it in place until I can bring something smashy to assist). I be clear, I want you to try and take the sisters out of the bunker. I'm daring you to do it even (see how I left just a little space to tempt you into charging?). How do you think this scenario would play out if we switched the sisters with hunters? Do you think the enemy would be as tempted to charge in that scenario? Do you think the enemy would weather 30" of bow fire to even get close enough to charge? No. Because they can't do anything to the hunters. There's no bait in this scenario worth risking a charge. 

Loose until the last is a situational ability that forces the enemy to alter their plans to avoid it. It's value is not that it nets you a few extra wounds on the charge, it's value is that it makes a target that's just tempting enough to bait the enemy into trying for a 10" charge (and hopefully failing so I can either shoot them on the charge, or shoot them twice the in the next turn). And if they did successfully pull off a 10" charge, that's ok too. The sisters loose until the last prevented the enemy from charging head on and funneled enemy models around the sides, making it easier to surround and lock in place. They are likely to take minimal causalities, can shoot next turn and can be topped back up to full health by a spellweaver (hopefully you've brought one.)

Models that tempt your enemy into making bad decisions are worth their weight in gold (which is why I love Tree-Revenants so damn much). They don't take a whole models off the table by themselves, but they lure your enemy into making exploitable mistakes, or they force him to scrap carefully set up charges, or they draw units out into the open so the real heavy hitters of the army (Hunters, Treelords and characters) can do the real heavy lifting. 

Don't poo-poo the bait/sacrifice play. That tactic alone has won me more games than I can count. 

 

[Nico]

Other than the psychological bait aspects - the only upside difference between the Sisters being walled off or being part exposed happens if they roll the exact charge roll. 

Perhaps having more of the Sisters exposed might be more effective (with 2" range Dryads reaching over) - provided they cannot get enough models in to kill the whole unit (denying you the D3 models back). 

I'm liking the D3 models back spell - looking at Wild Riders but not convinced.

[Mirage8112]

38 minutes ago, Nico said:

Other than the psychological bait aspects - the only upside difference between the Sisters being walled off or being part exposed happens if they roll the exact charge roll. 

Perhaps having more of the Sisters exposed might be more effective (with 2" range Dryads reaching over) - provided they cannot get enough models in to kill the whole unit (denying you the D3 models back). 

 

My concern is that the more you open the sisters up, the more attacks back they get if the unit makes the charge. Really, the sisters are there to do some Pew-Pew in the shooting phase, and to tempt the opposing player into charging. But a look at the scenario shows the following:

8" is a reasonable charge distance. Opening that front line up little more means it would be more likely that you get loose to the last off, but it also means more models able to put attacks into the Sisters when they get there.. For example, putting 3 sisters on them front line between the dryads, means on a charge roll of 8, 9, or 10 they can shoot. It would take an 11 or 12 to go around. But it also means the difference between having 5-6 models in CC, vs only 2-3. @Freejack02 is right that they are fragile, and in the scenario above that the difference between 5-6 casualties vs 2. If you used inspiring presence on them, you'd be fine and able to remove causalities from the front and still do 4-5 wounds from the remaining 4-5 sisters (since they'll till be able to shoot twice) and you stand a good chance to top them up from the spellsinger. But if they didn't have inspiring presence on them 5-6 causalities means you'd need to roll a 1-2 on battleshock to avoid losing any more. A bad roll would't completely wipe the unit, and 1-2 models can eventually be brought up to a reasonable strength after enough Blessings of Life but it would take them out of the game for 2-3 turns. 

They are after all only there to bait the enemy into the tarpit, and to peel a few wounds off in the process. However, it would be nice to have them stick around as long as possible.

I suppose it would depend on how soon you got there (shooting twice in your phase? or just once?) and how many wounds the attacking unit could take. 10 sisters shooting twice in their shooting phase (20 shots) do ~9 wounds, ~10 vs chaos (with no rend). Then if they were charged they get 10 shots they'd get ~5 more, so ~15 no rend wounds total. If they whittled down the charging unit to 2-3 models, then it would be worth it since they would only take ~2 casualties (the same as if they hadn't opened up the line.) 
 

38 minutes ago, Nico said:

I'm liking the D3 models back spell - looking at Wild Riders but not convinced.

It brings me great sadness to see how pitiful Wild Riders are these days. They were such a terror in the late days of 8th edition WHFB, pulling off turn 2 flank charges and running circles around everything else. Now they hit like jello and die like flies. So disheartening. 

[Keldaur]

One silly question. Do i need to save 40 points to use the acorn of the ages ?

[Mirage8112]

9 minutes ago, Keldaur said:

One silly question. Do i need to save 40 points to use the acorn of the ages ?

Nope! It's free! You do need the sylvaneth allegiance to use it though, 

[Keldaur]

1 minute ago, Mirage8112 said:

Nope! It's free! You do need the sylvaneth allegiance to use it though, 

So if i play this (ignore the second regrowth, it would be a treesong probably). I can get a second forest from the acorn ? Thx in advance.

Allegiance: Sylvaneth

Leaders
Treelord Ancient (300)
- General
- Trait: Gnarled Warrior 
- Artefact: Briarsheath 
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
Branchwych (80)
- Artefact: Acorn of the Ages 
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth

Battleline
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
10 x Dryads (100)

Units
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (220)
- Greatbows
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (220)
- Scythes

Scenery
Sylvaneth Wyldwood - Sylvaneth Allegiance (0)

Total: 1000/1000
 

 

[Mirage8112]

3 minutes ago, Keldaur said:

So if i play this (ignore the second regrowth, it would be a treesong probably). I can get a second forest from the acorn ?

Yep! Treelord ancient can also call a forest in there hero phase on a 4+. (Both of which are free) 

[Keldaur]

Thx and sorry for the small hijack, continue with the awesome discussion

[Freejack02]

**Disclaimer**

I love tactical discussions. Love em (that's why I'm here personally, along with getting insights into armies I've never played or faced), but I do understand that long text wars may not be fun for some people to read - to those people I am sorry. I am not trying to hijack the thread, nor is it my aim to just argue on the internet for the sake of being contrarian. Also, none of this is intended to be snarky or inflammatory in any way - I really do like sitting down and sorting out all these things. I hope we can continue it! So with that said, let's dive in.

5 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Yep. You did indeed show that under the most improbable of conditions it is possible to prevent the sisters from getting 10 shots off on the charge.

I think I showed that, not only is it quite probable, but it's really the only way an opponent with half a brain would ever consider charging that unit (or they could advance while playing for the double turn). 

5 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Now, I picked 15" as an arbitrary number

I assumed this was the number picked because, with any number lower, the back line of the SotW would not be in range to shoot the enemy on your turn. 

5 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Dryad bases are 1.25" across. So nobody is hitting over the dryads with a 1" attack range. If the enemy had a 2" attack range, you'd obviously give a wee bit more space. 

Correct, they are 32mm - but a model doesn't have to reach across the entire diameter of the base to hit something beyond it. It can use the gap in between - which is just enough room for another 25mm base to hit a 25mm base on the other side (SotW are on 25mm I think?). Possibly a 32mm, not sure on that. Now this is assuming a tight formation - but you are also assuming a 1" attack range.

 

5 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

But, I might also point out that your unit is now locked in combat with a unit of 30 dryads. Who are not exactly easy to remove.

Ok, I've seen this assertion posted elsewhere - and I don't fully agree with it. They are a 1w model with a 4+ save and middling Bravery, which might not qualify as easy to remove... but certainly isn't hard to either. I guess debuffing hit rolls half the time helps in this situation, but any shooting (or anti-horde attack/spell) is going to be pretty successful at removing them. 

5 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

7-10 wounds? You're joking right? Unless the "average enemy unit" is something like Ironguts with 3 attacks doing 3 damage apiece then just no.

5 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

I'd easily put 500 pts of models on an objective. I do it all the time.

Ok. Maybe this is where the disconnect in strategy is coming from. From my perspective - how can you admittedly plant 25% of your army on top of an objective, and not expect to attract the attention of an "elite" enemy unit? Do you really expect to get charged by 20 Marauders, or a 10 block  of Clanrats? The commitment of your force on top of that objective will attract a response - fair to say it will also be 450-500 points. 

5 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

I've never seen an enemy be able to get more than 2 models in range to hit what's in the center.

What? Hell, using 32mm bases, just lining up 3 of them in front of a 25mm base easily gets them all in 1". The diagram I quoted originally doesn't show anything to prevent this, so...

Now here comes some math. I'm going to draw on likely enemy units I would face from my 3 most common opponents - Skaven, KO, and Orruks (mostly Ironjawz). For skaven, a charging block of Plague Monks (unbuffed). For KO, a 9 squad of Endrinriggers. For Orruks, 10 Brutes. For this test, I will assume that only 3 models can reach the SotW in the charging combat phase (I believe they're all 1" reach). 

3 Plague Monks on SotW - rr hits (always) / rr wounds of 1 (scroll?) = 9 attacks > 6.75 hits > 4.5 wounds.  5+ save = 3 damage dealt.  Not impressive.

~20? Plague Monks on Dryads - rr hits (always) / rr wounds of 1 (scroll?) = 60 attacks > 45 hits > 30 wounds. 4+ save = 15 damage dealt. Half of the Dryads are slain.

 

3 Endrinriggers on SotW - unbuffed = 4 attacks > 2.67 hits > 2.25 wounds. -2 rend, no save, 2 damage = 4.5 damage dealt. 4-5 dead sisters , could be worse. 

6 Endrinriggers on Dryads - unbuffed = 6 attacks > 4 hits > 3.33 wounds. -2 rend, 6+ save, 2 damage = 5.5 damage dealt. 5-6 dead Dryads, not real impressive. 

 

1 Brute Boss on SotW - unbuffed = 3 attacks > 2 hits > 1.33 wounds. -1 rend, 6+ save, 2 damage = 2.22 damage dealt.

2 Brutes on SotW - unbuffed = 8 attacks > 5.34 hits > 3.56 wounds. -1 rend, 6+ save = 2.97 damage dealt.  2.97+2.22 = 5.19 damage dealt. 5 dead sisters, expected worse. 

7 Brutes on Dryads - unbuffed = 28 attacks > 18.68 hits > 12.46 wounds. -1 rend, 5+ save = 8.31 damage dealt. 8-9 dead Dryads, again not as bad as I thought.

 

Ok, this point I will definitely concede - it is not as easy as I previously thought to kill the 10 SotW with so few 1" reach models. The Monks are not strong enough, while the Ends and Brutes will only knock out half the unit, then another 1-2 on Battleshock. I was expecting either of those groups to be able to wipe them off the board. As for the long charge, hell 2 of the units I mathed out above can easily do that (Ends fly 12", and Brutes I've always fought have Rampaging Destroyer move buffs avg 5.5"). The Skaven would need to make a 9" charge (assuming no buffs), no easy feat. I still don't believe the formation has much more merit than a simple Dryad screen with SotW behind them - especially considering the maneuvering it will take to properly setup. I do believe it is still fairly simple to negate Let Loose, which as I understand it is the main point of the tactic. I also still contend that SotW are not worth the price tag - any shooting or magic will properly smack them around. 

 

Edit: This exercise has made me realize that the Libs I have from the starter set seem to be on 32mm bases... aren't they shipped with 40mm? How on earth did that happen.

[Nico]

Quote

I guess debuffing hit rolls half the time helps in this situation, b

All the time - they are pretty much always near a Wyldwood. Works on shooting too. 

My other comment is that unless you are able to get like 20 models in - the classic example being 20 Stormvermin with the 1" base and 2 inch range allowing them to fight in 3 ranks, or you've got an absolute Beatstick unit like Scythe Hunters or Archai or Skyfires, or you've stacked buffs, "most" combats in the game don't annihilate 10 wounds worth of models in one swoop (unless Battleshock lends a hand).

One point to watch out for is that the TLA's free Wyldwood cannot be positioned close enough to your own models for them to be able to use it as the  starting point of a Navigate Realmroots teleport. It has to be more than 3" away. The other sources of Wyldwoods are 1" away. So the TLA's Wyldwood should be the exit point - not ideal as he has a short range.

[Mirage8112]

16 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

**Disclaimer**

I love tactical discussions. Love em (that's why I'm here personally, along with getting insights into armies I've never played or faced), but I do understand that long text wars may not be fun for some people to read - to those people I am sorry. I am not trying to hijack the thread, nor is it my aim to just argue on the internet for the sake of being contrarian. Also, none of this is intended to be snarky or inflammatory in any way - I really do like sitting down and sorting out all these things. I hope we can continue it! So with that said, let's dive in.

A man after my own heart! This thread is full of 3-4 page discussions on single topics. Hell, @Nico and I had a six page discussion on the merits of the dryad bunker. You're in good company here, and the more you argue with me, the more I like you. So carry on soldier... 

22 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

I assumed this was the number picked because, with any number lower, the back line of the SotW would not be in range to shoot the enemy on your turn. 

Nope. It was totally arbitrary. Truth be told, you could always adjust the formation so that every model was within shooting range if that was going to be an issue.

That being said however, it is my understanding based on RAW, that if one model can shoot, all models can shoot. If there is an FAQ clarification on this please point me in the right direction. 

 

26 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

Correct, they are 32mm - but a model doesn't have to reach across the entire diameter of the base to hit something beyond it. It can use the gap in between - which is just enough room for another 25mm base to hit a 25mm base on the other side (SotW are on 25mm I think?). Possibly a 32mm, not sure on that. Now this is assuming a tight formation - but you are also assuming a 1" attack range.

That's would have to be a hell of a gap. Dryads are on 32mm bases, and SotW are on 25's. Here's a pic (blue horrors are standing in for SotW:



You can see that there is ample space within the formation to prevent the Tzaangors from getting within 1" of the Sisters. I even tried it with a little more of a gap, it's still not quite enough to make the distance, and if the dryads are B2B there's no chance. You do have to be careful with your positioning because if the formation is really tight and you leave enough of a gap, it's juuusstt enough that you could feasibly make the gap (but if they did, it would be your own fault for being sloppy with your positioning). 

 

51 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

Ok, I've seen this assertion posted elsewhere - and I don't fully agree with it. They are a 1w model with a 4+ save and middling Bravery, which might not qualify as easy to remove... but certainly isn't hard to either. I guess debuffing hit rolls half the time helps in this situation, but any shooting (or anti-horde attack/spell) is going to be pretty successful at removing them. 

They are a 1 wound model, with a 4+ save (that are a good target for mystic shield, so are often 3+) . Within 3" of a wyldwood they have a perpetual -1 to hit (that effects shooting and CC). 30 models strong they start out at bravery 9 (Base bravery of 6, +1 for every 10 models.)  The only thing they are really weak to are mortal wounds (who isn't?) but with 30 bodies you can actually sustain a fair amount of damage without weakening their effectiveness. 

In the scenario above, we're discussing the first diagram I drew, but I were going to use this strategy, I'd be more likely to use the second, and try to put the WW between them and whatever was trying to charge them. That's really easy to do, since you get free reign to put the WW anywhere you want (within 1" of other scenery) before the game starts (i.e. relative to objectives). That way whatever wants to charge them loses 1/6 of whatever goes through the woods on their way to combat the dryads. 
 

1 hour ago, Freejack02 said:

Ok. Maybe this is where the disconnect in strategy is coming from. From my perspective - how can you admittedly plant 25% of your army on top of an objective, and not expect to attract the attention of an "elite" enemy unit? Do you really expect to get charged by 20 Marauders, or a 10 block  of Clanrats? The commitment of your force on top of that objective will attract a response - fair to say it will also be 450-500 points. 

Oh, I expect to attract attention. In fact I'm counting on it. 

The thing that makes them so effective are the WW. Most of the time you'll find a big block of dryads with a 2-3 inch forest buffer, supported by a Treelord or Treelord Ancient. (I left that out of my diagram because we were specifically discussing SotW, but most of the time you'l find them in that combination). Treelords give a further -1 to hit on a roll of 4+ every combat phase. Which means 50% of the time enemy units are losing 1/6 of their models after charging through the forest (note: that's models not wounds. Elite units with 5-6 wounds are removed the same as 1 wound models). Then they are at -2 to hit in CC, -1 for shooting. Dryads with mystic shield, fully in the forest are at 2+ save, and if you're running Gnarlroot list you stand a good chance of bringing back D3 Dryads every hero phase. You'd be hard pressed to find a better or more resilient bunker in the game. 

In this particular scenario with the Sisters, I've opted to forgo putting them in the woods (since the woods attack anything not SYLVANETH on a roll of 5+ per casted spell (another reason why the formation above is so deadly). But setting this up within some proximity to the woods, especially if you can force the enemy to go through them and stay within 1" of them makes it a real death trap. 
 

1 hour ago, Freejack02 said:

What? Hell, using 32mm bases, just lining up 3 of them in front of a 25mm base easily gets them all in 1". The diagram I quoted originally doesn't show anything to prevent this, so...

I tested this myself and I will definitely concede that with 32mm bases or smaller, you can get 3 within range. However, your picture above, doesn't include the flanking dryads on either side of the lead SotW. You see in my diagram they are ever so slightly closer to the attacking unit than the sisters and slight 1/4" difference means anything larger than a 32mm base, say 40mm and above (and yes, your liberators should be on 40's) it's a max of 2. Most of my opponents (Ogres, Ironjaws ect) are 40's, but there are a few that are on 32's. 
 

1 hour ago, Freejack02 said:

Now here comes some math....

This mostly looks legit. The only thing I would add, is that 3 Endrinriggers will only have 3 attacks, not 4. By my math 3 Endrinriggers with 3 attacks, 2.01 hits, 1.66 wounds x 2 damage = 3.33 wounds after saves. 

Likewise your brutes are on 40mm rounds, so the max they could do on the sisters would factor the boss + 1 brute. So 2.22 from the boss + 1.4 from the single Brute = 3.7 wounds on the SotW.

Your other attacks on the dryads don't look like they factor in the -1 to hit from being within 3" of a WW (and I would definitely make sure they were.) I doubt you'd be able to get 20 Plague Monks within range of the dryads with such along charge necessary, but assuming you were, you're probably looking more like:

60 attacks, hitting on 5's (-1 to hit from being within 3" of a WW) = 19.8 hits  
RR misses = 13.266 more hits
33.06 hits total

33 hits, wounding on 4's = 16.533 wounds
RR 1's (scroll) = 1.3 wounds
17.86 wounds total

4+ save = ~9 dryads dead. 
 

1 hour ago, Freejack02 said:

Ok, this point I will definitely concede - it is not as easy as I previously thought to kill the 10 SotW with so few 1" reach models. The Monks are not strong enough, while the Ends and Brutes will only knock out half the unit, then another 1-2 on Battleshock. I was expecting either of those groups to be able to wipe them off the board. As for the long charge, hell 2 of the units I mathed out above can easily do that (Ends fly 12", and Brutes I've always fought have Rampaging Destroyer move buffs avg 5.5"). The Skaven would need to make a 9" charge (assuming no buffs), no easy feat. 

I mostly agree with your points. The only thing I would add, is if you were facing Endrinriggers you'd likely not use this strategy. In that case there's not much point trying to bait, because as you say, even at the full 18" they can easily make the charge with a 12" move. In that case, I'd definitely close the gap in front of the sisters and force them to try their luck vs. the dryads. that way the next shooting phase they can double tap, and take out 2, and maybe put a wound on a third if they're lucky. Vs. the ironjaws, I'd likely take the full 18" to account for rampaging destroyers, but even if you didn't math shows 2 brutes can't really do enough damage to make me worry. 
 

2 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

I still don't believe the formation has much more merit than a simple Dryad screen with SotW behind them - especially considering the maneuvering it will take to properly setup... I also still contend that SotW are not worth the price tag - any shooting or magic will properly smack them around. 

I think it has more merit than basic dryad screen, but how much more is open to debate and probably match-up dependent.  I think sisters add a bit more versatility to a Sylvaneth list, and are easier to bait with than Hunters. There are trade-offs certainly, but I'd wholeheartedly disagree with the assumption that there is no useful place for them in a competitive list. Also, it's not any more difficult to set up than anything else. The sisters move up into position, and the dryads come out of the Enclaves. As long as one of the Dryads is within 3" of the woods you can set them up however you like. If your doing it right, woods are practically everywhere. 

It's pretty much mandatory to pair them with a spellsinger, who can bring them back as they die, and her once per game auto-unbind is really easy for the opponent to forget. That auto-unbind is also a hard deterrent to anyone trying to use the magic route to snipe them out. (I fell victim to that myself last game, where I moved a Chaos Sorcerer on a manticore up to cast a spell, burned two 6's from my destiny pool only to have it auto-unbound by a spellsinger I forgot was there. Next turn glade guard shot the damn thing to pieces with arcane bodkins. Learned my lesson that day I assure you.)  Shooting faces a similar problem, insofar as anything moving up to try and shoot them puts that unit in range of the dryads next turn, and unless its packing a ton of shooting and intent on removing all 10 that turn they'll just keep coming back thanks to blessings of life. 
 

3 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

I do believe it is still fairly simple to negate Let Loose, which as I understand it is the main point of the tactic.

It's simple to negate it if you can roll a 10" charge. It's not likely, but it is simple. The main point is to get the enemy to try and negate it. To fool him into thinking he's clever, or that you've made a mistake. Any charge, successful or not, plays to your advantage. It's also something the sisters are uniquely suited to do in a way that none of the other units are. And as I said, paired with a spellsinger an set in a formation like this, they are more durable and better protected than they appear. Which is what makes tactics like this so effective.

As I said before, I think this comes down to play style. I don't think they're mandatory (I don't think any wanderer allies are mandatory at this point), but they could be used to great effect if played right. 

[Nico]

Quote

That being said however, it is my understanding based on RAW, that if one model can shoot, all models can shoot. If there is an FAQ clarification on this please point me in the right direction. 

It could be clearer in the rules - but it seems that you measure for each model to check range - the "attacker" must mean the "attacking model". This would be very odd otherwise.

[ppetford]

The rules are pretty clear, it's covered in the first paragraph of the rules for attacking. You need to measure for each weapon being used, no mention of measuring from units that I can see?

[Dragon10]

Hi quick question can we ally with the old wanderers / wood elves warsolls?

 

as I bekeive they took the wanderers alliance out of the older war scrolls, I.e allying avatar of war (Orion) i 

[WABBIT]

Yes you can. It's in the earlier compendium PDF 2015. Google for it, the GW website only has the newer PDF compendium lists. The 2015 compendium units still have the wanderer keyword and they CAN be used. The GHB 2017 FAQ says if you have units with more than one war scroll you can use which ever scroll you want but if using an older war scroll it's polite to agree it with your opponent. I doubt events/tournaments will allow it which I feel is wrong and exclusive but between friends and clubs matches you should have no problem. Put it this way we paid a lot of money and invested a lot of time into models that GW now say are irrelevant. B****** to that. A player with a newer supported army will have a great advantage over compendium lists so being prohibited from using the older warscrolls makes it even more unbalanced. Unbalanced games are not fun for you OR your opponent so it's in everyone's interest to play the warscrolls they want to. I hope you manage to agree to to use them without any arguments as this topic can create some heated debate unfortunately. GW should never have done this. 

[Mirage8112]

10 hours ago, Nico said:

It could be clearer in the rules - but it seems that you measure for each model to check range - the "attacker" must mean the "attacking model". This would be very odd otherwise.

That makes sense to me. I think the confusion came from the fact that the rules are split into two separate sections. Goes to show you how familiar I am with the rules for shooting when I don't often play with big units of shooty models.

That being said I don't think I've ever shot with models out of range. I've let opponents do it though; apparently because I didn't know any better. Sneaky %^%s. 

[HadrielCaine]

Ran the following today at Essex Fury:

Allegiance- Sylvaneth

Treelord Ancient 300

General, Oaken Armour, Gnarled Warrior

-Regrowth

Branchwych 80

Silverwood Circlet

-Verdant Blessing 

Loremaster 100

Dragonlord 340

Tree Revenants 80

Tree Revenants 80

Tree Revenants 80

Kurnoth Hunters 220

Greatswords

Kurnoth Hunters 220

Greatbows

Kurnoth Hunters 220

Greatbows

Household Battalion 70

Gnarlroot Wargrove  180

 

 

 

 

Went pretty well!

 

The list is essentially my GHB1 list minus Spirit of Durthu, Sisters of the Thorn and Free Spirits Battalion. Plus The Dragon and a loremaster.

 

I found I was less a fan of Kurnoth Hunters in general without Free Spirits but the Branchwych and TLA performed much better than with their old loadout (double Ranu's).

 

Dragonlord was fun but died in every game. Loremaster was great, unsurprisingly. Think its time to paint some Dryads. Got 50 in my flat...

 

A.

[Lhw]

Congrats on the awards @HadrielCaine, liked your army when we played at Bristol. I think the swords might be a great shout as we see more hordes, too. It did cut to see @Jimbo on Twitter describe you as the 2nd best looking Sylvaneth player on the scene though...

I might be missing something, but how are you fitting the Dragonlord in? Thought we could only ally with Wanderers and SCE?