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Let's Chat Sylvaneth


scrubyandwells

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Just wanted to express appreciation for this discussion re: the potential value and role of Tree-Revenants.

Don't have much to add yet, but I'll continue playtesting w/ them, starting tonight in an Escalation game, which looks well-suited for Sylvaneth.

On another topic: 

Has anyone had much success with mortal-wound output via Awakening the Wood and the Sylvaneth Wyldwood's Roused by Magic?

And the more general Q: Have you had much success forcing your opponent to fight you within the comfort of your Wyldwoods?

I haven't had much success so far with either...specifically with leveraging Awakening the Wood + spellcasting within 6" to repeatedly trigger Roused by Magic. In principle, when running Gnarlroot Wargrove, you could be casting 7-9 (or more) spells per your hero phase, and if you're dice are kind, the mortal-wound damage could add up.

Looking to playtest this more to get better at it. It seems especially good for Blood and Glory, Border War, Escalation, and Three Places of Power, since they give you a clearer idea of where your opponent must compete on the board, which is where you'll focus your Wyldwoods.

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Has anyone had much success with mortal-wound output via Awakening the Wood and the Sylvaneth Wyldwood's Roused by Magic?

I have had great success with this dynamic throughout any of the games I have played, and as such, a Treelord Ancient is an auto-take for me. It often depends on your opponent's experience with the Wyldwoods, as many experienced players will stay the hell away, but using your Ancient to generate more and more Woods, you can make it so that no matter what, they are near one.

It can definitely be hit or miss. One time I killed a Stormcast Lord-dude on Draconth, three seperate squads of Stormcast-bros and a Giant-Spider thing in one cast; getting 3s on both D3s on the important models and simply taking the last remaining wound(s) of the other ones. Other times, they have stayed away, making me fight them out in the open instead of in the woods.

 

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1 hour ago, scrubyandwells said:

And the more general Q: Have you had much success forcing your opponent to fight you within the comfort of your Wyldwoods?

 

Now that you mention it and I think back, almost all of my games have been mostly fought in my deployment zone! Crazy how quick some AOS armies are. 

 

Having played a monster heavy list I've not been fussed about cover, so  I've tended to put the Wyldwoods just in front of my force to make the enemy question whether they want to charge in or not, especially with their more elite models. Not really come up  tho tbh. I usually concentrate on putting the woods near objectives to  score points rather than try to mess with the enemy, especially as the deadly aspect is 1/6 and the roused by magic is 1/3...

 

Aaron

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@Forestreveries Well, really here we aren't quite talking about list building just yet. You raise a lot of fair points regarding how revenants find their way into lists, and we can get to that in a bit, but really it depends on what type of strategy you want to play and what kind of opponent your playing with. Questions of "why take revenants?" are different then "What role do they play in the game?" 

And although cost per model is not totally irrelevant (you don't want to be spending 120pts per model for a sacrificial unit). You have to look at what the model can do. Zombies meet all the requirements for tar-pits. They are battleline, they are cheap, they can easily replenish wounds and can even merge units together to create a large ablative pool. Clan rats are nearly the same, battelline, cheap, numerous and gets bonuses the larger the unit is.

Chaff needs to be highly mobile. None of the units you mentioned are mobile enough to be a good chaff unit. Back in WHFB chaff was almost always min sized units that were either fast cavalry or single model flyers (like great eagles). Since the rules for engagement have changed how you positon the models is important (I'll discuss this a little later.)
 

7 hours ago, Forestreveries said:

As far as I can follow you were saying that Dryads were more suited to what you describe as 'tar pit' situations, presumably because of their defensive abilities? 

A few of us have suggested that they are still better 'chaff' than Revenants on account of more, cheaper bodies. 

You're saying that Dryads need to benefit from their additional defensive abilities obtained from large units and Wyldwoods ...whilst simultaneously saying that the more expensive Tree Revenants are better suited to this "chaff" role *because* they lack those (optional) abilities?

Seems a little backwards to me tbh.  

Let me clarify here. Nearly every unit in AoS can fill more than one role on the battlefield depending on how you mix in your support and utility units. But certain units perform certain roles better due to having stats more tooled for a specific task, while others are more generalists, who are able to perform a couple roles depending on how to kit them or support them.

As you stated above, Dryads make excellent tarpits. In a wood, they have a 3+ save (in groups larger than 12) they are -1 to hit and gain +1 to hit an enemy every other round. They don't really put out a tremendous amount of damage having 2 attacks 4+/4+ and no rend. I wouldn't say their bravery is fantastic (6 base) but in groups of 20 it's a decent 7 (8 at full strength). Which means on an average D6 (3) means you'll need to lose 5 in a round before really worrying about battleshock. Between their improved save (3+) and -1 to hit from the woods, they can hold a moderate damage unit in place for a number of turns without dying. If you're also running a household battalion and put the branchwytch behind the dryads, the enemy unit they are tar pitting cannot even choose to retreat and must remain stuck there until the dryads run out of wounds or help arrives. (Being the in forest with a branchwytch is also optimal; with the wych able to buff the dryads through Regrowth AND have the forest doing the heavy lifting by dishing mortal wounds for every spell cast.)

As far as chaff goes, dryads do not have the mobility to be as effective as chaff. A 7" move is nice, but nothing beats the potential 72" move that revenants are capable of (and still charge) if the need arises. Add to this the ability to teleport between wildwoods means if your dryads are anchored in the woods holding an objective and face potential charge next turn, a unit of revenants holding an objective clear across the board can teleport in and soak the charge if needed. There are some restrictions on how they are placed but if your playing proactively and don't get caught off guard this should be something you can plan for. Dryads do not have this flexibility unless you are keeping them off the board specifically for this purpose. And if so, you cannot put them on a board edge, and they cannot do anything while your waiting to use them as a speed bump. Dryads can be chaff if you need to, but really your paying 20pts more for for something that has a reduced threat range, less hitting power and only marginally better staying power.  An extra 5 wounds won't help you considering they lose the -1 to hit, lose the +1 to armor since they're only 10 models, and lose the +1 from cover in the wood and lose the +1 to bravery making them bravery 6. That basically means they lose 30% of their defensive bonuses and will only need to lose 3 models before having to worry about battleshock. 

So, as chaff, dryads really can't be everywhere you want them to be, they're more expensive, they don't hit any harder, they don't have any better staying power (when you count battleshock, and no, you should not use inspiring presence to make chaff stick around.) They fill a battleline slot, but so do revenants. 

As to footprint size, it's not an issue, it's a little tricky to explain without diagrams, but for the sake of argument I'll use a previously mentioned unit. The great eagle. 

A great eagles mounted on a 50mm base has a footprint of about an inch and half. Granted while a model can charge past it if something is within range, it cannot move within 3" of it. That means the area denial for movement with an eagle is a circle, approximately 7.5 inches across. That means if positioned between a unit of dryads at the edge of a wildwood, and an enemy looking to set up a charge, you can effectively keep the enemy from moving within roughly 11" of your dryads. (3" from the dryads, 1/2 inch space, 7.5 from the eagle.) Flyers looking to fly over the eagle and charge, can't land due to being within 3" of the dryads, or 3" of the eagle. 11" is an insanely long charge. (ideally, you would have a unit ready to counter charge if he failed or opted not to charge, but thats another matter)

So. Even with a great eagle on a single 50mm base has an area denial foot print of 7.5". 5 revenants if placed in a circular formation (like a 5 on a D6) 1" apart from the center pip, they have a footprint of about 6". Add 3" to each side that means they have an area denial bubble of 12". Space them 3.5 inches from something they're protecting and that's a 15.5 potential buffer they can give one of your units effectively making them unchargeable. If you want to use them a screen, spread out 1" apart. A unit of 5 revenants has a foot print of roughly 9" across and 1" deep. That's an area denial of 15" wide and 7" deep. again, spaced in front of the woods that means an enemy would be 11 inches away from your protected unit, meaning flyers would need to roll a 11-12 to fly over and get into combat. A unit trying to go around could not roll high enough even if 3" away from the revenant screen.  

So, using creative positioning and a little foresight you can essentially make a unit un-chargeable without first killing the 5 revenants. If they opt to shoot them, thats great. it means they aren't shooting something more valuable, and even if the unit is destroyed, a charging unit still has to roll an 11-12 if they were screening and cannot even attempt a charge if they were bubbling. And an enemy 15" away is well within range for a counter charge. 

Think about it also if your force is split between two sides of board, and you wanted to screen both but aren't sure which side the enemy is going to pick. To screen with dryads, you'll need two units, since the 48" gap between the two camps is too far for a dryad screen to cross in a hurry. That means you're need two groups of 10 clocking in at 240 pts. But single units of revenants can essentially go to either if needed, only cost 100 pts, freeing 140pts to spend on something more useful. 

Granted we're talking about how best to use the unit defensively. Because really I don't think of revenants as an offensive unit. But revenants can be used offensively in a pinch,  but it's not optimal. 

As far as @Nico's point about not using overcosted models dying. a good, balanced list should have 1 chaff unit at the very least. revenants do it better and cheaper than anything in the Sylvaneth Battletome. Playing games without intending to lose models is ideal, but often un realistic, because a lot of things in AoS hit really, really hard. With the new battletomes, particularly bonesplitterz and beast claw raiders, their units are brutal in close combat, they're fast and can tear through just about anything we have on the charge. Have a fast throw away unit or two that can screen, redirect, and double as an objective thief could easily make the difference between a win and a loss. 


 

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What's everyone's thoughts on 2 T/Ancients on the field together? Too much?

Like a lot of people here, I'm wanting to play the Gnarlroot Wargrove just because I'd like to have a strong magic phase with Kurnoth Hunters to compliment. I'm just playing with the idea of having two TAs... More magic, another monster, another wyldwood created...

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1 hour ago, Lanoss said:

What's everyone's thoughts on 2 T/Ancients on the field together? Too much?

No definitely not too much! 

Almost every 2k list I've written contains either Alarielle or Gnarlroot and 2 TLA's. 

I think my go to will be one with Regrowth, one with Treesong (provided I have a Branchnoun or two with Verdant Blessing) one with Gnarled Warrior and Oaken Armour, one with Briarsheath.

You have 2 super tough monsters at that point. Going to take a lot to shift one of those bad boys, let alone both!

Particularly strong in the 'Three Places of Power' Battleplan I think. 

Also I don't think ive ever even put a non-Ancient Treelord on the table yet... The benefit of the extra spellcaster over the extra points being an easy pill to swallow.

Aaron

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On 18/08/2016 at 5:59 AM, Mirage8112 said:

@Forestreveries Well, really here we aren't quite talking about list building just yet. You raise a lot of fair points regarding how revenants find their way into lists, and we can get to that in a bit, but really it depends on what type of strategy you want to play and what kind of opponent your playing with. Questions of "why take revenants?" are different...

Thanks for the thought out post. I think I see what you mean on paper, and maybe as I get better at reading the game I will hopefully be able to use the tree revenants to the potential you describe. I've been finding with my games so far (vs Beastclaw Raiders and vs Seraphon ripperdactyls) that I'm getting moved onto and charged so quickly that I wouldn't have time to teleport the revenants to make use of that mobility. I think these games probably aren't good representatives though. I've ordered some tree revenants (plus drycha, and 2 x Kurnoth Hunters, though they are sold out everywhere here atm) so I can play around with the Gnarlroot Wargrove bonuses. What size bases are the revenants on? 

On a different note, the big problem I had in my last two games the other night was vs the Ripperdactyls (opponent had a squad of 6).

I think with the starter set, I just don't have enough units and enough threat. In game one, I didn't really know what they did so they just appeared turn one, moved and charged my Treelord Ancient and completely took him off the board before he could do anything. I've looked at their warscroll, because I was starting to doubt their rerolling ALL failed hit and wound rolls, but it's true. I don't get their deployment though. First hero phase he puts the toad down right on top of my units which reads fine. However, he is then starting them off board, and bringing them on (I think) from any table edge? Though maybe I misunderstood. I think he was also adding 2 or 3 D6 to their movement in the same turn, but I couldn't find anything for that on the warscroll, is that a special rule from elsewhere. I didn't see it under the flyer section in the 4 page rules, but perhaps it's from a batallion?

After that though, they are just insane with the 6 4/4 dmg 1 attacks, 18 3/3 dmg 1 attacks, and 18 4/3 dmg 1 beak attacks (tripled from 6 because of the toad) which all generate an extra attack if they hit (which a lot do with rerolling, though luckily we played it so the second round of attacks don't generate more hits). All these attacks are rerolling failed hits and wounds. Unfortunately my mystic shield didn't go off, I had rolled for abilities / items and didn't get anything defensive and he just couldn't make it through the last of the beak attacks.

Game two I tried to bubble around my ancient with dryads so he couldn't turn one charge me this time. I was allied with a kid who comes in with only his two big Archaeon and Glotkin models. His Archaeon got 1 turned by the beastclaw raiders, and his glotkin got 1 turned by the ripperdactyls (I thought that Glotkin would be tougher! I always feel sorry for this kid, but he doesn't learn the rules for his guys so maybe he is missing stuff that would make them better). My Awaken Woods spell didn't go off, which would have been fantastic (I had bad luck with magic that game). Turn two I decided to charge the beastclaw with my dryads so he would at least not get another charge bonus. I was hoping to at least play the end part of the game as well as I could, even though i probably couldn't take a single model off. Managed to string them out so, while not all could attack they were still partially blocking the ancient. He shot most of them off with his thundertusks and the ripperdactyles with the bonus 2/3 d6 movement thing closed the whole board and destroyed my ancient from behind. Unfortunately, even though I had priority vs the ripperdactyls (the beastclaw raiders had decided to attack my one remaining dryad despite his ally telling him not to do anything), I somehow managed to miss all 3 sweeping blows attacks (I guess I had bad dice rolls in general this game). 

I'm at a loss how to fight these guys. The 6 ripperdactyls cost less than my treelord ancient, so it's hardly unfair for him to field them. The rest of his army was two big blocks of skinks and a Salamandar. These units seem not rediculous, the Salamander is strong, and probably contributed somewhere to the damage described above (so many dice rolls so it's hard to keep track when we play fast) but the skinks are just normal troops who I wouldn't mind fighting. Can anyone help me understand the rules for the Ripperdactyle movement and deployment? Looking at their warscroll I see they can be summoned by Slann, but he didn't have one (and that used their movement phase also, so they couldn't do anything until turn two that way). Even when I was allied with this Seraphon army the other game, I just found they have so many rules for each model that there is a lot of room for misunderstanding. 

Sorry for the long post! First time I've had a chance to put all my thoughts down somewhere, so you're all suffering the consequences.

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It's a battalion. Specifically the Shadowstrike Starhost. 

The skink priests can give rerolls on hits/wounds to any unit from the formation it can see. The ripperdactyls start off the table and can be deployed anywhere, more than 3" from the enemy. Then once they come on the board they gain +1 to wound for that turn. Couple of things before we talk strategy. Ripperdactyls only generate extra attacks with their beak attack. Not the claws or the war spear. Also, I think only the skinks from the battalion gain the 3d6 movement. 

Really, this is the best alpha strike unit in the game. The ability to come on whenever/wherever they want is pretty brutal. The fact that your rolling for items/spells isn't helping (why are you doing that exactly? The book explicitly states you can choose.). The reason I ask is because there's a few item/spell combinations that can be used pretty effectively but if you can't be guaranteed to get them, it puts you at a serious disadvantage. 

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4 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

It's a battalion. Specifically the Shadowstrike Starhost. 

The skink priests can give rerolls on hits/wounds to any unit from the formation it can see. The ripperdactyls start off the table and can be deployed anywhere, more than 3" from the enemy. Then once they come on the board they gain +1 to wound for that turn. Couple of things before we talk strategy. Ripperdactyls only generate extra attacks with their beak attack. Not the claws or the war spear. Also, I think only the skinks from the battalion gain the 3d6 movement. 

Really, this is the best alpha strike unit in the game. The ability to come on whenever/wherever they want is pretty brutal. The fact that your rolling for items/spells isn't helping (why are you doing that exactly? The book explicitly states you can choose.). The reason I ask is because there's a few item/spell combinations that can be used pretty effectively but if you can't be guaranteed to get them, it puts you at a serious disadvantage. 

Thanks for the reply! I'm kind of relieved that, 1) the rules are all pretty much being played right so there's no awkward conversations there, and 2) that it's at least a good unit i'm getting done in by.

On why I rolled: The guys who I've been playing with have been a bit all over the place with the alliance bonuses, seeming a lot of people haven't got the newer battle tome armies and haven't been bothered to suss out what they want in the general's handbook bonuses. I've heard some TO's are considering whether or not to include them. I'm personally all for them. A few of my last games people have been asking to not play with them at all to save time everyone going through and picking stuff. For this game I offered to roll on them so we could at least get to use them. I also don't mind rolling because it gets me to practice with the different bonuses, even though it's not ideal. Later on, and maybe vs these tougher armies / more experiened players I feel start insisting on playing with them and picking them, because the handbooks been out for a while now and it seems lame to not play with something that's fun like that.

What would you suggest taking vs that kind of threat. Generally I've liked the ignore rend -1 and -1 to hit items on the ancient when I get to pick.

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Ah I see. 

The only point I would make is that our entire army, points and all, is designed around the battletome. Our army is intended to play around woods, and we are at a severe handicap if we don't get enough woods on the table. In open play, that doesn't really matter, because you can throw down units to compensate, but in matched play, our item/spells/command traits are build into our units point costs. 

Aside from that. I think what you take is less important than how you deploy. Your big advantage here is that you have the ability to null deploy if you want. Which is the first and best counter to an alpha strike list like this. 

There are two ways you can do this, and they both force the enemy to make a decision between two things, neither of which he wants to do. One is more item oriented, and the other is less so. 

1. When it comes time for your deployment, put your woods down in a position you wouldn't mind coming into on the board. An objective would be nice, but proximity to threaten one would be just as good. It's also probably best to have them somewhere close to your deployment zone, but off to one side, so enemy units can only threaten one forest at a time.  

2. Then when it's time to deploy, deploy one branchwych somewhere 5" from where you'd like to put a forest down, but out of out of LoS (if you can). Well away from the wildwood you placed earlier.  She should be equipped with the acorn.

3. Deploy nothing else. 

Since you have only deployed 1 unit, you will have the ability to choose who goes first. If you were able to get your branchwytch into a good position out of LoS, you could eat him go first. If you do decide to let him go first, it's a lose/lose for him. If he gets the first round, he's lost the ability to take out your strongest unit, or possibly even your general with the alpha strike. He could take out your wytch, but it's a bit of a waste to use up the element of surprise (and the +1 bonus to wound) just for that. Likely he'll hold it back and try to maneuver for objectives. 

If you do decide to take the first round, (which you will most of the time) then you immediately drop the acorn and put a wood as close as you can to the objectives, or if just a straight "punch em in the face" then try to drop it in a  bottleneck that will force him to move through it on be annoying to go around. (You have within 5" of the watch, so it's important to have positioned her well) Then, in your movement phase, bring in your dryads, (preferably 2 groups 20 strong)  and a group of kurnoth hunters, and whatever third unit you wanted to bring (lets say treeman ancient.) Then deploy then so the your dryads surround the hunters in one wood, and surround your treeman ancient in the other. 

If you let him go first, then you will roll for priority. At that point, if you get the turn, god help him, because all your shooting units will likely be in range of something and that something will probably be badly hurt, through ranged attacks and the next magic phase. 

If he gets he roll off or you went first this turn, then he goes next. He has a tough choice to make. Since your so close to the objectives, he'll be forced to deal with you. And again, it's lose-lose-lose for him. He could bring his ripperdactyls on, but he'll have to pick one forest bunker or the other. Regardless of which he picks, he won't be able to get to the center unit he wants to kill (you're ancient, or your hunters) without engaging the dryads, from any angle (since 20 dryads should be more then enough to bubble wrap 2" deep with coherency.) And if he does, the math looks bad for him.

If the 6 ripperdactyles were to charge something out in open. They could, on average, be expected to put out about 45 wounds (if the blot toad is near by). but, if forced to charge a group of dryads in a forest, they'll lose 1 (on average) on the charge. Then, after getting -1 to hit, the improved saves on the dryads, they're putting out 24 wounds, of which the dryads will fail 8 (on average.). If he picked the bunker with the treeman ancient, and the treeman's stomp goes off, then on average the dryads will lose only 5. 

Either way the attacks back will be pretty brutal. Plus the magic phase since he'll now be standing right in a wood. Plus now he's used his best weapon and it's only done a minor amount of damage. Pretty much all around the worst thing and alpha strike list would want to see happen.

Without items it's trickier to get so much board control. You'll have to drop your wood in a position your relatively certain he won't be able to get to when he deploys. Then you drop the aforementioned bunker with the hunters, and dryads (maybe the ancient as well) into the wildwood.

The effect will be less of a choice for him and it it gives you less options, but it should still work. The only downside to this is that it makes the placement of that first wood so critical. Too close and he can block your arrival, to far and he can just ignore it (if it's an objective game). But if you make good placement, (or if he takes the bait) then you can bring the rest of your units on as it's convenient. 

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Maybe take the -1 to hit artefact.

Picking artefacts and traits is vital. It's overwhelmingly bad for some factions (Death and Chaos) to roll.

You have to remember that Seraphon players are always wilfully misreading the rules (cf Kroak getting bravery 12 from Saurus Guard), using both abilities from a Skink Priest, the list goes on).

The reroll hits and wounds is only rerolling 1s.

Above all else, IF the Rippers were in the formation AND off the table, then this combo falls apart completely.

They come on in the MOVEMENT PHASE, so you cannot cast the formation buff on them from the Skink Dude (as not on the table in the hero phase), so no rerolls!

More importantly, if there are no Rippers on the table in his first hero phase he gets zero Blot toads for the whole game!

The Toad Rage only works in the FIRST hero phase and is one toad per unit of Rippers ON THE TABLE!

I increasingly wonder about why they nerfed monsters cover wise, when it's synergised units that are the ones putting out 15, 20, 30, 60 wounds in one turn.

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3 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Ah I see. 

The only point I would make is that our entire army, points and all, is designed around the battletome. Our army is intended to play around woods, and we are at a severe handicap if we don't get enough woods on the table. In open play, that doesn't really matter, because you can throw down units to compensate, but in matched play, our item/spells/command traits are build into our units point costs. 

Aside from that. I think what you take is less important than how you deploy. Your big advantage here is that you have the ability to null deploy if you want. Which is the first and best counter to an alpha strike list like this. 

There are two ways you can do this, and they both force the enemy to make a decision between two things, neither of which he wants to do. One is more item oriented, and the other is less so. 

1. When it comes time for your deployment, put your woods down in a position you wouldn't mind coming into on the board. An objective would be nice, but proximity to threaten one would be just as good. It's also probably best to have them somewhere close to your deployment zone, but off to one side, so enemy units can only threaten one forest at a time.  

2. Then when it's time to deploy, deploy one branchwych somewhere 5" from where you'd like to put a forest down, but out of out of LoS (if you can). Well away from the wildwood you placed earlier.  She should be equipped with the acorn.

3. Deploy nothing else. 

Since you have only deployed 1 unit, you will have the ability to choose who goes first. If you were able to get your branchwytch into a good position out of LoS, you could eat him go first. If you do decide to let him go first, it's a lose/lose for him. If he gets the first round, he's lost the ability to take out your strongest unit, or possibly even your general with the alpha strike. He could take out your wytch, but it's a bit of a waste to use up the element of surprise (and the +1 bonus to wound) just for that. Likely he'll hold it back and try to maneuver for objectives. 

If you do decide to take the first round, (which you will most of the time) then you immediately drop the acorn and put a wood as close as you can to the objectives, or if just a straight "punch em in the face" then try to drop it in a  bottleneck that will force him to move through it on be annoying to go around. (You have within 5" of the watch, so it's important to have positioned her well) Then, in your movement phase, bring in your dryads, (preferably 2 groups 20 strong)  and a group of kurnoth hunters, and whatever third unit you wanted to bring (lets say treeman ancient.) Then deploy then so the your dryads surround the hunters in one wood, and surround your treeman ancient in the other. 

If you let him go first, then you will roll for priority. At that point, if you get the turn, god help him, because all your shooting units will likely be in range of something and that something will probably be badly hurt, through ranged attacks and the next magic phase. 

If he gets he roll off or you went first this turn, then he goes next. He has a tough choice to make. Since your so close to the objectives, he'll be forced to deal with you. And again, it's lose-lose-lose for him. He could bring his ripperdactyls on, but he'll have to pick one forest bunker or the other. Regardless of which he picks, he won't be able to get to the center unit he wants to kill (you're ancient, or your hunters) without engaging the dryads, from any angle (since 20 dryads should be more then enough to bubble wrap 2" deep with coherency.) And if he does, the math looks bad for him.

If the 6 ripperdactyles were to charge something out in open. They could, on average, be expected to put out about 45 wounds (if the blot toad is near by). but, if forced to charge a group of dryads in a forest, they'll lose 1 (on average) on the charge. Then, after getting -1 to hit, the improved saves on the dryads, they're putting out 24 wounds, of which the dryads will fail 8 (on average.). If he picked the bunker with the treeman ancient, and the treeman's stomp goes off, then on average the dryads will lose only 5. 

Either way the attacks back will be pretty brutal. Plus the magic phase since he'll now be standing right in a wood. Plus now he's used his best weapon and it's only done a minor amount of damage. Pretty much all around the worst thing and alpha strike list would want to see happen.

Without items it's trickier to get so much board control. You'll have to drop your wood in a position your relatively certain he won't be able to get to when he deploys. Then you drop the aforementioned bunker with the hunters, and dryads (maybe the ancient as well) into the wildwood.

The effect will be less of a choice for him and it it gives you less options, but it should still work. The only downside to this is that it makes the placement of that first wood so critical. Too close and he can block your arrival, to far and he can just ignore it (if it's an objective game). But if you make good placement, (or if he takes the bait) then you can bring the rest of your units on as it's convenient. 

 

2 hours ago, Nico said:

Maybe take the -1 to hit artefact.

Picking artefacts and traits is vital. It's overwhelmingly bad for some factions (Death and Chaos) to roll.

You have to remember that Seraphon players are always wilfully misreading the rules (cf Kroak getting bravery 12 from Saurus Guard), using both abilities from a Skink Priest, the list goes on).

The reroll hits and wounds is only rerolling 1s.

Above all else, IF the Rippers were in the formation AND off the table, then this combo falls apart completely.

They come on in the MOVEMENT PHASE, so you cannot cast the formation buff on them from the Skink Dude (as not on the table in the hero phase), so no rerolls!

More importantly, if there are no Rippers on the table in his first hero phase he gets zero Blot toads for the whole game!

The Toad Rage only works in the FIRST hero phase and is one toad per unit of Rippers ON THE TABLE!

I increasingly wonder about why they nerfed monsters cover wise, when it's synergised units that are the ones putting out 15, 20, 30, 60 wounds in one turn.

Thanks you both. Particularly Mirage for that massive write up, that's amazing. Once my extra units are here I will try this out and report back definitely. I'm more confident now it's something i can deal with once I get some more units in my army!

On the rerolling, unfortunately the warscroll seems to be in their favour:
"Swooping Dive: At the end of your movement phase, you can declare that this unit will swoop down to attack the foe at close quarters. If you do so, then in the following combat phase you can re-roll failed hit and wound rolls for this unit as the enemy reels from the sudden assault."

The blot-toad seems ambiguous (there seems to be a lot of room for that in the thousands of extra Seraphon rules haha):
"In your first hero phase, place a Blot Toad anywhere on the battlefield for each of your units of Ripperdactyl Riders."

Would that kind of wording tend to be taken like you said, as deployed units only?

Anyways, I shouldn't derail the conversation too far. I thought responses would be useful tactics for all Sylvaneth players, and I think reading through it definitely was. Hopefully we can slowly gather info on how to play vs all the armies. Thanks so much guys.

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The priest just picks a unit it can see, then the entire battalion gets re-rolls (hit and wound) against that unit till the next hero phase. It has to make the pick in the hero phase, but it doesn't matter when his units come on the board. If it part of the battalion, it can reroll.

It's a brutal formation.  

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I think your mistaken. The toads are only placed in the first hero phase. It's effects trigger whenever a unit is attacked within a certain distance. And, each unit of rippers gets one. As written, it's one for each", not "one for all".

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23 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:


3. Deploy nothing else. 

Since you have only deployed 1 unit, you will have the ability to choose who goes first. If you were able to get your branchwytch into a good position out of LoS, you could eat him go first. If you do decide to let him go first, it's a lose/lose for him. 

This isn't necessarily the case. 

 

You still have deploy your units one by one, you just have to tell your opponent that they are being set up in the Hidden Enclaves. 

Unless you take a Warscroll / Wargrove Battalion which includes all or most of your army, then you aren't really at any advantage for gaining the choice of first turn priority. 

 

Aaron  

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If you deploy minimally intending to bring units out "from the enclaves", if they get first turn and can kill your units on the field (via alpha strike for example) you lose the game and they get a major victory because there are no enemy units remaining on the board. Is that correct? 

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There's no major victory for having wiped out the enemy rule in matched play.

Unless he has 2 units of Rippers (sounded like one unit of 6 in formation and off the table), he doesn't get the toads at all as at the time the ability is tested (first hero phase) he has no rippers on the table.

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6 minutes ago, Nico said:

There's no major victory for having wiped out the enemy rule in matched play.

Unless he has 2 units of Rippers (sounded like one unit of 6 in formation and off the table), he doesn't get the toads at all as at the time the ability is tested (first hero phase) he has no rippers on the table.

Oh! This was the wording in the 4 page rules that got me thinking that. I wasn't sure if reserves counted as ok the field, just not on the table

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There's no major victory for having wiped out the enemy rule in matched play.

Unless he has 2 units of Rippers (sounded like one unit of 6 in formation and off the table), he doesn't get the toads at all as at the time the ability is tested (first hero phase) he has no rippers on the table.

That's not correct. The blot toads are just placed in his first hero phase regardless of whether or not the rippers themselves are deployed or not. The ability doesn't specify that the rippers have to be deployed on the field. I can see how you could say that but I think you'd have s tough time winning your case arguing that. Might be a good question for the faq guys if your adamant about it.

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That's not correct. The blot toads are just placed in his first hero phase regardless of whether or not the rippers themselves are deployed or not. The ability doesn't specify that the rippers have to be deployed on the field. I can see how you could say that but I think you'd have s tough time winning your case arguing that. Might be a good question for the faq guys if your adamant about it.

If it's not on the table, it doesn't exist and cannot affect the game until it comes on. This seems axiomatic to me. Similarly you couldn't use Oracle of Eternity if Kairos wasn't on the table yet (e.g. on the scenario where your army comes in in 3 waves). 

They made it clear in the main FAQ that you cannot do command abilities in hero phase when you bring a general on in the subsequent movement phase and the same logic applies here. Stop trying to stretch the rules for Seraphon filth.

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Haha. That's funny.

Aside from that, this isn't a command ability. You could argue that the blog toad is part of the unit, but isn't deployed in the deployment phase so the unit is on the table. Just not entirely.

Aside from that this feels a lot like rules lawyering. If your so convinced seriously tho, ask the raw guys. I'd be stunned if they agree with you, but they're as close to an official answer you'll get.

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Aside from that, this isn't a command ability.

It's an analogy. You also didn't respond to the Kairos example. 

If you don't deploy it on the table, you don't have any of its rules until it comes on. It's very simple. 

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I'll admit, it's clever. But again, the ability in question is a deployment ability, not a command ability. Your not modifying a dice roll, your deploying something. (Deploying in that your setting something down on the table.)

The way the ability reads is "you place a blot toad for each of your units of ripperdactyls. It doesn't say "each unit of ripperdactyls on the table". As such, it seems to imply each set of ripperdactyls in your army.

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