Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Aezeal]

11 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

@scrubyandwells. I guess with Kurnoth going up it's tough but I can swap Dryads for TreeRevs and got 60 spare right now slight discount on Alarielle and TreeRevs and I am fine (going by Skirmish) if not I will go with 9 Kurnoths( 6 and 3) and some allies then 

I am just little burned out by Gnarloot found myself many times with no spells to cast as only Regrowth is great every turn and Mystic Shield and Arcane are one offs. 

With that list I have 4 spells and Alarielle spell is bonkers. 

 

Well sure I often have no spells to cast with ALL my 6-7 spell slots... but still sometimes even only having that 1 extra spell is nice.  Especially when that spell is verdurous harmony on treekin or hunters. I always try to cast shield though... there is usually a target that needs shielding. And if something is in range then the bolt's D3 MW are always a nice  extra

[scrubyandwells]

27 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

@scrubyandwells. I guess with Kurnoth going up it's tough but I can swap Dryads for TreeRevs and got 60 spare right now slight discount on Alarielle and TreeRevs and I am fine (going by Skirmish) if not I will go with 9 Kurnoths( 6 and 3) and some allies then 

I am just little burned out by Gnarloot found myself many times with no spells to cast as only Regrowth is great every turn and Mystic Shield and Arcane are one offs. 

With that list I have 4 spells and Alarielle spell is bonkers. 

 

Right on! Also excited to switch to an Alarielle build once GH2017 is out.

[Aezeal]

15 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

Right on! Also excited to switch to an Alarielle build once GH2017 is out.

I hope she gets a slight point drop, then I'll probably take her more often. Hope the damage to the hunters isn't to harsh.. Their damage output isn't that high compared to some buffed destruction and chaos units and while their toughness is nice I'm not sure a point increase is warranted. 

If Orion gets a small point drop I might take em both in a list.

[xanderhansen]

I personally don't think that hunters gonna get a point increase. Yeah they cost more in skirmish, but that's understandable when you look at them unbuffed compared to others. But when you look at them in a complete 2000 points army, then their prize is just fine. They will never grow In power like others will when they get buffed by their army combination.

 

But hey, that's just what I think [emoji6]

 

Sendt fra min SM-G935F med Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

[Davariel]

I think hunters are definitely undercosted, if only because a unit comes with 15 wounds (with really good offensive stats... rend -2 is really rare and powerful) when most other units at that price point only get 10 wounds. 

The problem as I see it is that hunters are the only unit we have with powerful and non-situational offensive and defensive abilities, which forces us to depend on them perhaps a little too much. Everything else is too fragile (revenants), lacks rend (dryads), or is luck-dependent (I'm looking at you, Treelord).

I'm hoping that Hunters go up, but a fair bit of other Sylvaneth stuff goes down, so the cost of most lists stays roughly the same... but I guess we'll just have to wait and see

[Durandbrand]

Hello fellow tree huggers! Been reading this thread for a bit and finally decided to post. I'll be competing in a big NA tournament (NOVA Open) at the end of this month and would like some feedback on my list. It'll also be my first actual tournament as well.

The core of my list consists of

General: Treelord Ancient (300)
Trait: Gnarled warrior
Artefact: Oaken armor
Deeplore: Regrowth

Branchwych (100)
Artefact: Ranu's
Deeplore: Verdant Blessings

Battlemage on Celestial Hurricanum (320)

Tree Revenants x5 (100)
Dryads x10 (120)
Dryads x10 (120)

Battalions:
Household (20)
Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)

Kurnoth Hunters w/ scythes x6 (360)
Kurnoth Hunters w/ bows x3 (180)

Balewind Vortex (100)

Now the part I need help on would be how to finish up the list. I'm thinking of one of the options below

Kurnoth Hunters w/ bows or scythes (180)

Or

Treekins x6 (200)

Or

Remove the unit of bow hunters and add

Drycha (280)
Treekin x3 (100)

The Balewind could also be interchanged for more treekin as well. It's mainly there just to provide cover for the hurricanim and make him invulnerable to any melee that might fly over the screen or deepstrike in.

I do have Alarielle and Durthu as well, if you think they will make a better fit in my list.

Any advice and feedback will be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

[scrubyandwells]

50 minutes ago, Durandbrand said:

Hello fellow tree huggers! Been reading this thread for a bit and finally decided to post. I'll be competing in a big NA tournament (NOVA Open) at the end of this month and would like some feedback on my list. It'll also be my first actual tournament as well.

The core of my list consists of

General: Treelord Ancient (300)
Trait: Gnarled warrior
Artefact: Oaken armor
Deeplore: Regrowth

Branchwych (100)
Artefact: Ranu's
Deeplore: Verdant Blessings

Battlemage on Celestial Hurricanum (320)

Tree Revenants x5 (100)
Dryads x10 (120)
Dryads x10 (120)

Battalions:
Household (20)
Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)

Kurnoth Hunters w/ scythes x6 (360)
Kurnoth Hunters w/ bows x3 (180)

Balewind Vortex (100)

Now the part I need help on would be how to finish up the list. I'm thinking of one of the options below

Kurnoth Hunters w/ bows or scythes (180)

Or

Treekins x6 (200)

Or

Remove the unit of bow hunters and add

Drycha (280)
Treekin x3 (100)

The Balewind could also be interchanged for more treekin as well. It's mainly there just to provide cover for the hurricanim and make him invulnerable to any melee that might fly over the screen or deepstrike in.

I do have Alarielle and Durthu as well, if you think they will make a better fit in my list.

Any advice and feedback will be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

That all seems pretty solid. Personally, I'm not a fan of running the Balewind, especially since sylvaneth are already quite strong, but this is just a personal bias. 

If you're interested in running Alarielle, I'm a big fan of the attached list from Laurie (@Lhw), who finished 3rd with it at the AoS GT Heat 3 last month. It's also somewhat similar to the Alarielle list that Austin (@AustinTheMan) took to LVO earlier this year (he finished 2nd overall), although Austin wasn't running Gnarlroot Wargrove. As with many sylvaneth lists, it requires careful play and can be unforgiving to many mistakes; but I think it's quite strong overall, and, based on personal experience (I've been playtesting a similar Alarielle build for a while), a lot of fun to play, since it enables you to do a bit of everything. 

Some notes on the list:

• A lot of players have been running Branchwych w/ both Acorn of the Ages and Verdant Blessing. In this case, Alarielle has Verdant Blessing. I'm a fan of this for multiple reasons, e.g., let's say you're facing a one-drop army, which finishes deploying before you, then goes first, and then proceeds to take out the Branchwych before she's had a chance to generate a Wyldwood with her Acorn of the Ages. In that case, you've still got a reliable way to generate Wyldwoods -- Alarielle w/ Verdant Blessing.
• Branchwych w/ Throne of Vines is solid since you can often get her to a spot to hang out for a while (Throne of Vines stays up without recasting as long as the caster doesn't move), and then she can cast 2 spells w/ +D3 to cast. Even if she's moving and then only casting 1 spell w/ +D3 to cast, she gives you a more reliable way to get off Verdurous Harmony for replenishing your Kurnoth Hunters.
• Oaken Armour is more common for the Ancient, but personally, I'm a fan of Moonstone of the Hidden Ways, since it turns him into an amazing utility piece (Moonstoning the Ancient has helped me win multiple games, and it's just a ton of fun to play). Of course, this makes the Ancient a little less resilient, so there's definitely some tradeoffs to consider. 
• Alarielle's shooting attack, the Ancient's, and the 6 greatbows give you a solid amount of long-range damage potential. This means a lot of armies will have to come to you, which in turn combines well with optimizing your Wyldwoods + the 7 spells you can cast from the list, e.g. for triggering Roused by Magic rolls on those Wyldwoods.
• You've got some bodies in the 2x10 Dryads for screening off key pieces (e.g. w/ 3 scythes behind one of them swinging over the top), sitting on objectives in cover in a Wyldwood, etc. Definitely be careful about how you use sylvaneth battleline, though, since they can die pretty easily and are easy to waste. 
• You've got some combat punch in the list (Alarielle + 3 scythes especially) to deal real damage. Unfortunately, Alarielle's beetle can sometimes get lazy and not do much for you, and of course gets weaker as she takes damage.

@Lhw might have other thoughts, since he has a lot more practice with this Alarielle-list variation.

[Lhw]

Hello chaps. Just to add my two cents on top of S&Ws thoughts there, on Alarielle. He's covered most of the big points on her. I would say though:

• Alarielle's healing of every Sylvaneth model is great, each unit of Khunters, the Branchwych, TLA and Alarielle herself (2d3 for her!) healing each turn is great.
• This also can pretty much give you free damned - put a unit of bows next to damned in your side of the table, if you've got some. Take damned, then heal - can keep doing this all game normally.
• I take Oaken Armour on the Ancient, because I've found you have to have Mystic Shield up on Alarielle, or else she just goes down too quickly. She's already weak against mortal wounds, need to stop her being weak to mass loads of attacks too. Means sheild is never on Ancient.
• S&W is right, the beetle is swingy, especially against units under 5 models. But Alarielle's attack can be ace for that. Against small heros or elite units (basically models around 4-7 wounds), doing 1 wound then rolling 2d6 to beat their wounds characteristic can be great. Essentially it's just the big monsters/characters she struggles against - but that's where shooting and spells should be going.
• Finally, having Throne of Vines on Branchwych also can boost her own spell as well, which can be good fun if you get her hidden near a big combat.

She's really great fun to use. You need to be conservative with her, first few games I chucked her forward and she died quickly. But her shooting, healing and magic, is still doing enough even when she is sitting at the back. Then end game she can jump forward and smash things.

I've been running that list for a while now and haven't got bored of it.

[DantePQ]

Ok so I played two games with army I posted earlier (Alarielle with Regrowth, TLA with Verdant Blessing and Moonstone, 2x5 Tree Revs, 2x6 Scythes Kurnoth, 10Dryads) 

Against Blades of Khorne I wrecked by opponent in Border Patrol this army is nuts with objectives. Big Blocks of Kurnoths are almost unmovable and TLA with Moonstone is also great even with less protection but moonstone can really make a difference and keep opponent on his feet whole game. And I agree that Alarielle should be played more like huge support unit then offensive hammer her abilities are great but without Mystic Shield she is fragile against mortal wounds and many attacks. 

Second game against SE (3 places of power) was even easier Alarielle and TLA were huge in taking objectives and then you got to put Kurnoths to guard it. 

Couple points 

- I didn't miss Gnarlroot (although with Kurnoth going up without any units dropping in points I will use it with 9 Kurnoths) as Deepwood Lore is quite average and especially in latter turns without much place to create woods I don't have enough spells. And I am fine without looking after Branchwych. 

- I miss shooting with Kurnoths but I am still torn between 2x6 Kurnoths with Scythes as they worked great just without much shooting I got to play differently. 

I am looking forward to GH2 but I unless Kurnoths are 240 I am fine. I hope they are 220 and TreeRevs and Branchwych are 80. 

 

[Lhw]

That sounds an interesting list Dante. I'd like to see how it goes against a shooty list. I think that's where the big blocks of Scythes would struggle more, potentially. That's also where you might miss the bows even more. 

 

Agree with alarielle being one big support unit. There are times when her combat is awesome too, though. 

[Aezeal]

10 hours ago, DantePQ said:

Ok so I played two games with army I posted earlier (Alarielle with Regrowth, TLA with Verdant Blessing and Moonstone, 2x5 Tree Revs, 2x6 Scythes Kurnoth, 10Dryads) 

Against Blades of Khorne I wrecked by opponent in Border Patrol this army is nuts with objectives. Big Blocks of Kurnoths are almost unmovable and TLA with Moonstone is also great even with less protection but moonstone can really make a difference and keep opponent on his feet whole game. And I agree that Alarielle should be played more like huge support unit then offensive hammer her abilities are great but without Mystic Shield she is fragile against mortal wounds and many attacks. 

Second game against SE (3 places of power) was even easier Alarielle and TLA were huge in taking objectives and then you got to put Kurnoths to guard it. 

Couple points 

- I didn't miss Gnarlroot (although with Kurnoth going up without any units dropping in points I will use it with 9 Kurnoths) as Deepwood Lore is quite average and especially in latter turns without much place to create woods I don't have enough spells. And I am fine without looking after Branchwych. 

- I miss shooting with Kurnoths but I am still torn between 2x6 Kurnoths with Scythes as they worked great just without much shooting I got to play differently. 

I am looking forward to GH2 but I unless Kurnoths are 240 I am fine. I hope they are 220 and TreeRevs and Branchwych are 80. 

 

Did he play with bloodsecrators and bloodletters etc and how did you deal with those combos?

 

I think 220 is a bit much. I do hope tree revenants drops slightly, maybe Alarielle too. I don't mind the cost of the branchwych that much but compared to say: all characters in BoK she's a bit weak: those slaughterpriests with 1D6 MW are nasty especially in the pilgrim thingie, same for bloodsecrator.. but basicly they all have a decent combat buff that makes them better than the wych. I'd prefer a point increase for those characters though.

[DantePQ]

he had both it was much o a problem as he didn;t have Sayl or wahtever that guy is called. As he got 1st turn but in second I was able to put two exra wildwoods on the battlefield and with ability to choose when and where fight It was quite easy to but win. 

Also one thing that's usually overlooked with Alarielle is how mobile she is, with multiple woods her ability to fly 16'' is huge, he can deal huge amount but for 3 turns she was locked in combat with Demon Prince, Bloodsecrator and Slaughterpriest and 5 infrantry that strikes after death, beetle didn't 0 damage for 2 rounds of combat and she nearly died as my opponnent got double turn. 

There is a problem with any kind of buffs for Sylvaneth as they would be too strong, problem is how weak our Deepwood Spell Lore is, especially in latter rounds with no room to make extra woods then only Regrowth is great value. Also priests are better as they can stack those prayers and cast them more then once (from different priest) I would love to see Mystic Shield or Arcane Bolt(or both) not being limited to 1 per turn that would be huge boost to Gnarlroot ( or some extra spells for example for GA Order) as sometimes with so many casters there are no spells to cast to maximize Sylvaneth casting potential. 

Yeah I agree I need to test it against some heavy shooty army - DoT or SE (the army I played only had 9 Raptors) but I like how it works. 

Also for sure will make slight change to spells - Alarielle will get Verdant's Blessing and TLA - Regrowth it's easier to optimize magic in certain battle rounds with that selection. 

[Aezeal]

On 6-8-2017 at 10:43 AM, DantePQ said:

he had both it was much o a problem as he didn;t have Sayl or wahtever that guy is called. As he got 1st turn but in second I was able to put two exra wildwoods on the battlefield and with ability to choose when and where fight It was quite easy to but win. 

Also one thing that's usually overlooked with Alarielle is how mobile she is, with multiple woods her ability to fly 16'' is huge, he can deal huge amount but for 3 turns she was locked in combat with Demon Prince, Bloodsecrator and Slaughterpriest and 5 infrantry that strikes after death, beetle didn't 0 damage for 2 rounds of combat and she nearly died as my opponnent got double turn. 

There is a problem with any kind of buffs for Sylvaneth as they would be too strong, problem is how weak our Deepwood Spell Lore is, especially in latter rounds with no room to make extra woods then only Regrowth is great value. Also priests are better as they can stack those prayers and cast them more then once (from different priest) I would love to see Mystic Shield or Arcane Bolt(or both) not being limited to 1 per turn that would be huge boost to Gnarlroot ( or some extra spells for example for GA Order) as sometimes with so many casters there are no spells to cast to maximize Sylvaneth casting potential. 

Yeah I agree I need to test it against some heavy shooty army - DoT or SE (the army I played only had 9 Raptors) but I like how it works. 

Also for sure will make slight change to spells - Alarielle will get Verdant's Blessing and TLA - Regrowth it's easier to optimize magic in certain battle rounds with that selection. 

My Khorne opponent started last game by saying the forests where nothing to him. I actually only had room for about 4 bases in total except on the sides. Anyway my first forest was 2 bases near the middle extending to one side. So he was like they don't matter to me, he then moved 3 characters into the forest turn 1 (incl bloodsecrator) and had 4 seperate units within 3 inch. He was saying... much Thanks for the cover now the bloodsecrator has 2+ in a good position near the middle.etcetc. Then my tla cast awakening on that forest turn 2... rolling Only 2 and 3 mw. 3 for the secrator... And then my bow hunters did another 3 wounds in shooting phase 2. After that he wanted to stop..... (But he played till the end of turn 3.. By then his lonely charging bloodthirster and most of his 20 bloodletting where dead too....

And since then I've only heard him complain about OP hunters that need a point increase.

[Jamopower]

How are you using the Tree revenants? Might be because I'm not playing with Sylvaneth allegiance, but I have had troubles getting any value out of my five revenants. Closest was when they had a chance of charging a repeater bolt thrower crew, but they failed their charge. Other than that very special situation, it's very hard to get any other use of them than distraction and they are fairly costly. The models are so cool that they'll most likely be in my lists in the future as well, but it would be fun to hear some ideas how to use them to the max as they seem to be frequently included in even tournament lists (maybe due batallion requirements though?).

[Aezeal]

22 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

How are you using the Tree revenants? Might be because I'm not playing with Sylvaneth allegiance, but I have had troubles getting any value out of my five revenants. Closest was when they had a chance of charging a repeater bolt thrower crew, but they failed their charge. Other than that very special situation, it's very hard to get any other use of them than distraction and they are fairly costly. The models are so cool that they'll most likely be in my lists in the future as well, but it would be fun to hear some ideas how to use them to the max as they seem to be frequently included in even tournament lists (maybe due batallion requirements though?).

I do play sylvaneth and have exactly the same experience. I played them most games because gnarlroot tax.. But apart from the first game where I could surprise my opponents mage I've not been able to get much milage out of them.

[Nick in York]

6 hours ago, Jamopower said:

How are you using the Tree revenants? Might be because I'm not playing with Sylvaneth allegiance, but I have had troubles getting any value out of my five revenants. Closest was when they had a chance of charging a repeater bolt thrower crew, but they failed their charge. Other than that very special situation, it's very hard to get any other use of them than distraction and they are fairly costly. The models are so cool that they'll most likely be in my lists in the future as well, but it would be fun to hear some ideas how to use them to the max as they seem to be frequently included in even tournament lists (maybe due batallion requirements though?).

Using them with Sylvaneth allegiance, I keep them back in the hidden enclaves and bring them on later in game to claim objectives or to stop an enemy unit from making their desired move. I generally bring them on into areas I've cleared with either my Kurnoth greatbows or somewhere that my opponent doesn't think needs protecting.

Note: I pretty much expect them to die quickly but that might hold a unit up for a turn or gain some victory points.

 

[scrubyandwells]

35 minutes ago, Nick in York said:

Using them with Sylvaneth allegiance, I keep them back in the hidden enclaves and bring them on later in game to claim objectives or to stop an enemy unit from making their desired move. I generally bring them on into areas I've cleared with either my Kurnoth greatbows or somewhere that my opponent doesn't think needs protecting.

Note: I pretty much expect them to die quickly but that might hold a unit up for a turn or gain some victory points.

 

I've found TRevs especially useful at events w/ secondary objectives, which is pretty common. Often I've seen secondary objectives that require high mobility (e.g., getting a unit off the table via your opponent's deployment zone, tagging multiple terrain features, tagging multiple board edges,  etc.). In general, though, I also tend to keep them in the hidden enclaves and bring them on later for an objective or for setting up a key screen. Every once in a while it'll make sense to try and get off a 9" charge on a vulnerable Hero, but at their current price, I haven't found that a reliable role.

[Mirage8112]

43 minutes ago, Nick in York said:

Using them with Sylvaneth allegiance, I keep them back in the hidden enclaves and bring them on later in game to claim objectives or to stop an enemy unit from making their desired move. I generally bring them on into areas I've cleared with either my Kurnoth greatbows or somewhere that my opponent doesn't think needs protecting.

Note: I pretty much expect them to die quickly but that might hold a unit up for a turn or gain some victory points.

 

10 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

I've found TRevs especially useful at events w/ secondary objectives, which is pretty common. Often I've seen secondary objectives that require high mobility (e.g., getting a unit off the table via your opponent's deployment zone, tagging multiple terrain features, tagging multiple board edges,  etc.). In general, though, I also tend to keep them in the hidden enclaves and bring them on later for an objective or for setting up a key screen. Every once in a while it'll make sense to try and get off a 9" charge on a vulnerable Hero, but at their current price, I haven't found that a reliable role.

I'd echo the above as well. But I'll also use them for screens which has been very effective. Setting them up 1" apart means they can effectively screen an area about 16" wide ( 5" for the models, 1" between them and 3" on either side). This can make it very difficult for a hard hitting hammer unit to charge a key character, move onto an objective, or deep strike to set up a charge on a vulnerable position. If you have a unit that can reliably put out 6-10 wounds on the charge it's best to feed them a unit or T-rev's which leaves them pen for a counter charge. Typically I'll take 2 units of 5, and that's been more than enough to prevent anything from hitting my front line before I'm ready for them. 

I'll also add I've had excellent results with them in combat (believe it or not). But it is important that you are mindful of their limitations. They can't really take on anything big by themselves, unless your intention is to weaken the unit before the real fight starts. But in that case, you're almost guaranteed to lose them. I've found it's better to activate them last in a fight and use them to either deliver the last 2-3 wounds in combat or to discourage the enemy from piling in. 

Typically if I'm using them for that purpose I'll run them in tandem with a treelord or a small unit of hunters. I'll use the treelord/hunters to deliver the main charge, and then set the T-rev's just outside 3" from the current enemy position. That way, the Treelord/hunters deliver the initial blow and do whatever damage they're capable of. Then the enemy has a choice; if he chooses to pile in it will bring the T-rev's in range and allow them to pile in up to 6" likely getting behind the unit cutting off retreat or maybe bringing them into range to attack a buffing character, or they can opt not to pile in which increases the treelord/hunters survivability. The ability to reroll a single hit or wound roll is great if you're using the scion with his glaive. T-rev's are also a readily accessible source of -1 rend which helps a bit with peeling those last few wounds off. 

[Aezeal]

I actually prefer to use units of 10 dryads for most of those functions mirage. Sure 20 points more bu double the wounds too.. keeps stuff tied up longer.

[Mirage8112]

Alright peeps. 

Since the GHB2 is right around the corner, I'm seeing a lot of speculation on how points will change. I keep hearing, over and over that hunters are getting a points increase. I haven't seen anything concrete regarding that (has anybody had any sort of official word from anybody who would be in a position to "know" rather than "guess"?) 

In light of this, I'm going to offer my predictions for how points will function for our army in GHB2. This is really based on my own analysis regarding the internal balance of our book rather than speculation about "what's fair". Feel free to add anything you all find relevant. I'll start from the ground up. 

Dryads: Currently 120 for 10. Max unit size of 30. 

Dryads are the core of our forces, and it doesn't make much sense to run an army without any unless forced to by battalion requirements. Interestingly enough, most battleline units in the game gain scaling bonuses based off unit size. Dryads do get that, but only in running units at a size greater than 12.  Max unit size is 30, but there isn't much reason to run them in groups larger than 20 since they don't really gain any bonuses for bringing the unit above 20 models strong. Initially I was unsure where the massive regiments bonus would be used in our army but the only place it can go is on dryads. T-rev's box size is just too damn small to seriously justify anything larger than 2-3x the box count (3x the box size would be 15 models, which is only half the max unit size.) I do not see Dryads getting a flat point reduction, since T-rev's would need to be dropped below dryads points-wise and I can't see them going lower than they are.  

Prediction: 120 for 10, 300 for 30. 

T-rev's: Currently 100 for 5, max size 30. Battleline if army has the SYLVANETH allegiance. 

T-rev's are currently our only other choice to fill our required battleline slot. They are already fairly cheap. Clocking at 100pts for 5. The difficulty here is that people currently complain endlessly about them thanks to their 4+ to hit and relative fragility. Since they're warscroll can't really be changed (that's not within the scope of changes the GHB2 is making to the game) some people are hoping for a points reduction. 

I don't see T-rev's getting a massive points reduction. There's no way they would drop lower than 80 for 5, but even then at 80 pts I'd be concerned they'd be undercosted. Currently, one of the cheapest battleline units in the game are clanrats (which has been confirmed by warhammer community) as being 120 pts for 20 models in the new book. That brings the battelline cost for a 2k game to 360 pts. (3 min sized units of 20 rats). I can't see GW allowing Sylvaneth to satisfy battleline requirements with 240 pts (80 T-rev's x 3 units of 5). My guess is that T-rev's will stay the same base cost, and that they'll encourage plays to take larger units by dropping the max unit size to 15-20 models. I can't see them making this unit straight battleline since so much of their worth is tied to their movement, and their movement requires a wyldwood to be it's most effective. 

Prediction: 100 for 5, 260-320 for 15-20. Battleline if army has the SYLVANETH allegiance. 

Spite Revenants: Currently 100 for 5, max size 30.  

Probably the most under-utilized unit in the codex. I see this going one of three ways. 

If GW's goal is to see that all the units in the codex see play-time they'll have to either make spites battleline or offer a substantial reduction in cost. Given the amount of damage they are capable of (not a whole lot) they could drop the point cost to as low as 60 for 5. This would mean that most plays could fit a unit or two into a list without making large sacrifices to accommodate. It would also increase the playability of the Dreadwood battalion as the initial investment in Spites makes the base cost around 840 points at it's bare minimum (4 units of spites @ 400 pts, 3 units of T-rev's @ 300 pts, outcast battalion at 40 pts, dreadwood battalion at 100pts.) It's clear also that GW considers the Dreadwood to be a strong battalion as it's currently one of the most expensive. Dropping the cost of spites to 60pts puts dreadwood in the 580 range. 

The other direction they could go is making spite battleline with restrictions. Possibly if Drycha were the general. This would bring the cost of fielding Dreadwood down to 500 pts. More than reasonable if it also makes battleline requirements in the process. 

The third option is a hybrid of the two. Drop their points to 80 but make them battleline and increase the dreadwood battalion cost to 120 pts up from 100. Personally I think this is the most balanced of the three. This puts dreadwood in the 5-600 pts range but gives you battleline and drycha, or in the 800 pt range exchanging Drycha for dryads or T-revs. 

Prediction: 80pts for 5. Battleline if army has SYLVANETH allegiance it's general is Drycha.

Branchwytch and Branchwraith. Currently both 100pts. 

It's pretty obvious that the wytch has more utility in matched play than the wraith as the branchwraiths spell summons a random number of dryads and requires reenforcement points (not to mention barring the roll of a "12" the summoned unit won't have enough models for the +1 to save rolls.) However I don't see either character being worth less than 100pts. If they do decide to adjust the points here, I assume they'll raise the price on the wytch sightly. 

Prediction: Branchwraith unchanged at 100pts. Branchwtych unchanged OR 120Pts. 

Treelord/TLA. Currently 260pts and 300pts. 

Widely regarded as being overcosted, the treelord has seen some use recently thanks to @scrubyandwells's effort to highlight proper use for him on the tabletop. I will always take a points reduction, but I actually feel like the treelord is fairly well pointed for what he can do. He matches pretty closely with the Frost Pheonix (260) the the war hydra (240) Coven throne (260) and Bloodthirster of incessant rage (280). Most behemoths in the game with utility abilities clock in around 260-280 it seems. So barring a game wide adjustment for behemoths, I expect him to stay relatively unchanged. 

That being said, I actually think he feels lackluster because of his comparison to the TLA. As much as I hate to say it, I think TLA will see a slight points increase bringing into line with something like the Celestial Hurricanium (320) Archmage on a Dragon (360). My guess is it will be slight, but could go as high as 340. 

Prediction: Treelord unchanged at 260 (or in line with whatever changes they make to behemoths game-wide). TLA 320-340.

Kurnoth Hunters. Currently 180 pts for 3.

This is the big one everybody is concerned about. I've said before that most people had their greatest trouble with hunters because they were really the first unit in the game that operated under the new battletome system. As such I would say they were the first real "AoS-ified" unit to hit the tabletop and people didn't know how to deal with them.

That being said, making a call on how they will be pointed in the handbook is tricky. For players who intend to run a full Sylvaneth Tree army they are, aside from characters, pretty much the only damage-dealing unit we have access to. Overpaint them and we have very little chance of damaging much of anything on the tabletop barring bring in allies from another faction.

Truthfully, I think it will come down to how GW sees the army working. It's my opinion you need to have at least 2 separate damage-capable units in a list to be effective. If they see the damage-dealing portion of the army to be primarily hunters, I'd say they say the same, or at the very most are bumped to 200. If not, and they intend to increase hunters to 220 or (god forbid) 240, that role will have to be filled with something else. Spirit of Durthu maybe? Not for 400 pts. Maybe for 320 one could make that happen. The treelord is another option, but as I said, his points seems closely connected with other behemoths in the game. Since allies will be a thing going forward, I just cannot see the Treelord coming down to 240 or 220 to compensate for a hunter cost bump. since that would make him fairly pointed in Sylvaneth army, but underpointed if taken as an ally. 

I could see them leaving hunters the same, but making some of the buffing agents so often run with hunters more expensive. For instance raising the celestial Hurricanium from 320 to 360 and raising the Gnarlroot Wargrove from 80 to 120.  

Prediction: Tricky, but I'm going to say a slight increase in points to 200 for 3 if they opt to directly adjust hunters. If not I'll say hunters stay the same but buffing agents receive a brutal nerf.

Alarielle, Drycha, Durthu. Currently 620, 280 and 400. 

Normally points for named characters don't change all that much. And mostly, I feel like the points for these three are fairly accurate. I do not think we'll see Alarielle under 600 and I don't think we'll see Drycha over 300. It my guess durthu could get a slight point reduction to make up for a increase to hunters, and really 400pts makes it very hard to make good use of his Solem Guardian rule. I could see Durthu going as low as 360 if Hunters go above 200, since he's the only other unit in codex who is really capable of fulling the role as primary damage dealer. 

Prediction: Alarielle 600, Drycha 280, Durthu 360-400 (depending on other changes in the codex.

-----

So those are basically my educated guesses where things will fall. We'll just have to wait to see how everything stacks up later this month. 

 

[Mirage8112]

29 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

I actually prefer to use units of 10 dryads for most of those functions mirage. Sure 20 points more bu double the wounds too.. keeps stuff tied up longer.

Oh you prefer Dryads to T-revenants? What a surprise! I had no idea you felt that way... 

I've used 10 dryads for some of these things too. They are nowhere near as good at it, but work well enough if your lucky enough to have them in the right spot at the right time. 

[Davariel]

@Mirage8112 Those are some dire predictions! Thanks for the in depth thoughts and analysis of all the various units, I greatly enjoyed reading through it

My own responses, thoughts and guesswork below:

7 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Dryads: Currently 120 for 10. Max unit size of 30.
Prediction: 120 for 10, 300 for 30.

Agreed. Dryads seem to be costed on the basis of getting the +1 save for having 12 or more models, and having wyldwood support - if anything I think they need a discount in units of 10, but as you say they're very unlikely to drop in cost. Units of 30 are pretty much never seen so I'd hope to see a discount on them.

7 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

T-rev's: Currently 100 for 5, max size 30. Battleline if army has the SYLVANETH allegiance.
Prediction: 100 for 5, 260-320 for 15-20. Battleline if army has the SYLVANETH allegiance.

I disagree. It's difficult to say just how much value their teleporting ability adds, but overall, the stats and abilities of Tree-Revenants feel pretty much on par with Grave Guard and Greatswords - both of which work out at 80 for 5/160 for 10. I'd be shocked if they don't go down to 80 for 5. I also think the cost of the models is far too high for them to be marketed as a horde unit - although you never know with GW

7 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Spite Revenants: Currently 100 for 5, max size 30. 
Prediction: 80pts for 5. Battleline if army has SYLVANETH allegiance it's general is Drycha.

A very difficult unit to figure out what to do with. Make them battleline and they're competing directly with Tree-Revenants (but without teleporting or rend...), keep them as is and you have to come up with a compelling reason to take them. Personally I think their warscroll should be amended to grant -1 to hit rather than the situational -1 to bravery so they'd at least be high risk/high reward - I'm sure everyone else would cry OP though.

The narrative player in me loves the idea of making them battleline if Drycha is the general, but I'm not sure if that's incentive enough to make a model who can't take a command trait and who has no command ability your general - and again, you could just take tree-revenants instead, with their better stats (assuming they're both the same price). Maybe the solution is to give Drycha a command ability - it's not like Sylvaneth have many to choose from!

I'm expecting them to be 80 for 5, but I think they should probably be 60 for 5 (and NOT battleline) to serve a role as filler/chaff. No one likes the outcasts anyway

7 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Branchwytch and Branchwraith. Currently both 100pts.
Prediction: Branchwraith unchanged at 100pts. Branchwtych unchanged OR 120Pts.

I... really have no idea what you're thinking here. Both have pretty lacklustre stats for the points - 5+ saves, few attacks/no rend, situational special rules, and a unique spell that's either utterly useless (branchwraith) or usually useless (the wych's spell is usually worse than bolt, unless you've got spells to burn with Gnarlroot). I think both will drop to 80 points - and the Branchwych's renown cost in skirmish suggested she'd do so, I believe?

7 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Treelord/TLA. Currently 260pts and 300pts.
Prediction: Treelord unchanged at 260 (or in line with whatever changes they make to behemoths game-wide). TLA 320-340.

Agree completely regarding the Treelord. I think he's fine in and of himself, the problem is that most things he does, Kurnoth Hunters do better and cheaper: more wounds, rerollable saves, better range, better rend. -1 to hit is his biggest selling point, but relying on a 4+ dice roll is always a recipe for disaster. Don't expect any real changes here.

I actually disagree regarding the ancient. I don't think he's undercosted - he only gets a single cast/unbind, his offenses are pretty mediocre, and he's fairly slow. I think he only seems underpriced once you start buffing him with traits, items and Gnarlroot - but the point cost you pay is for a basic Treelord Ancient warscroll and should reflect as much. I expect he'll stay the same as well.

8 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Kurnoth Hunters. Currently 180 pts for 3.
Prediction: Tricky, but I'm going to say a slight increase in points to 200 for 3 if they opt to directly adjust hunters. If not I'll say hunters stay the same but buffing agents receive a brutal nerf.

A very difficult one to assess, as you say - so much hinges on these guys for Sylvaneth armies! Sadly I think their stats and wound count are simply too strong for their price, irrespective of any synergy. Most elite units at the 180-200 price point have 10 wounds, not 15, and lack rend -2 or a 30" threat range! I'm expecting them to shoot up to 220 for 3, but hopefully the effect on Sylvaneth will be offset by reductions elsewhere (as I think Sylvaneth as a whole are fairly balanced).

8 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Alarielle, Drycha, Durthu. Currently 620, 280 and 400.
Prediction: Alarielle 600, Drycha 280, Durthu 360-400 (depending on other changes in the codex.

Agreed on all counts. I could see Drycha going up to 300 or even 320 since her mortal wound output is so strong, but I don't think she's enough of a problem as is to warrant it.

Of course, the other factor that could change everything is allies. I think it's been said that most if not all order armies can take Stormcasts as allies. Even if they're our only ally, getting access to the huge breadth of Stormcasts would give us access to plenty of units that can fill the damage dealing role in the event Kurnoth Hunters become too expensive to stomach. Of course I wouldn't use any of them since I can't stand Stormcasts, but that's just me Here's hoping we get some aelven allies too!

Interesting times ahead, that's for sure - can't wait to see what GHB2 brings and start coming up with lists to paint towards!

[someone2040]

30 minutes ago, Davariel said:

I... really have no idea what you're thinking here. Both have pretty lacklustre stats for the points - 5+ saves, few attacks/no rend, situational special rules, and a unique spell that's either utterly useless (branchwraith) or usually useless (the wych's spell is usually worse than bolt, unless you've got spells to burn with Gnarlroot). I think both will drop to 80 points - and the Branchwych's renown cost in skirmish suggested she'd do so, I believe?

The Branchwych will drop if you take Skirmish as gospel. If it does, I'd be surprised if the Wraith doesn't follow suit (Other than, $$$, sell newer model over older cheaper one).

Honestly I'm not sure if a drop is needed. Most mages clock in at 100 points, and the Sylvaneth ones can at least fight better than most Mages and have an offensive/defensive perk to boot. The fact their spells are pretty poor is offset in some ways by the fact the Sylvaneth allegiance will give them another one.

The wraith's defensive perk isn't anything to sniff at either. For a Sylvaneth army, it probably won't be hard to get that off, and it helps against both melee and shooting.

[Aezeal]

4 hours ago, Davariel said:

@Mirage8112 Those are some dire predictions! Thanks for the in depth thoughts and analysis of all the various units, I greatly enjoyed reading through it

My own responses, thoughts and guesswork below:

Agreed. Dryads seem to be costed on the basis of getting the +1 save for having 12 or more models, and having wyldwood support - if anything I think they need a discount in units of 10, but as you say they're very unlikely to drop in cost. Units of 30 are pretty much never seen so I'd hope to see a discount on them.

I disagree. It's difficult to say just how much value their teleporting ability adds, but overall, the stats and abilities of Tree-Revenants feel pretty much on par with Grave Guard and Greatswords - both of which work out at 80 for 5/160 for 10. I'd be shocked if they don't go down to 80 for 5. I also think the cost of the models is far too high for them to be marketed as a horde unit - although you never know with GW

A very difficult unit to figure out what to do with. Make them battleline and they're competing directly with Tree-Revenants (but without teleporting or rend...), keep them as is and you have to come up with a compelling reason to take them. Personally I think their warscroll should be amended to grant -1 to hit rather than the situational -1 to bravery so they'd at least be high risk/high reward - I'm sure everyone else would cry OP though.

The narrative player in me loves the idea of making them battleline if Drycha is the general, but I'm not sure if that's incentive enough to make a model who can't take a command trait and who has no command ability your general - and again, you could just take tree-revenants instead, with their better stats (assuming they're both the same price). Maybe the solution is to give Drycha a command ability - it's not like Sylvaneth have many to choose from!

I'm expecting them to be 80 for 5, but I think they should probably be 60 for 5 (and NOT battleline) to serve a role as filler/chaff. No one likes the outcasts anyway

I... really have no idea what you're thinking here. Both have pretty lacklustre stats for the points - 5+ saves, few attacks/no rend, situational special rules, and a unique spell that's either utterly useless (branchwraith) or usually useless (the wych's spell is usually worse than bolt, unless you've got spells to burn with Gnarlroot). I think both will drop to 80 points - and the Branchwych's renown cost in skirmish suggested she'd do so, I believe?

Agree completely regarding the Treelord. I think he's fine in and of himself, the problem is that most things he does, Kurnoth Hunters do better and cheaper: more wounds, rerollable saves, better range, better rend. -1 to hit is his biggest selling point, but relying on a 4+ dice roll is always a recipe for disaster. Don't expect any real changes here.

I actually disagree regarding the ancient. I don't think he's undercosted - he only gets a single cast/unbind, his offenses are pretty mediocre, and he's fairly slow. I think he only seems underpriced once you start buffing him with traits, items and Gnarlroot - but the point cost you pay is for a basic Treelord Ancient warscroll and should reflect as much. I expect he'll stay the same as well.

A very difficult one to assess, as you say - so much hinges on these guys for Sylvaneth armies! Sadly I think their stats and wound count are simply too strong for their price, irrespective of any synergy. Most elite units at the 180-200 price point have 10 wounds, not 15, and lack rend -2 or a 30" threat range! I'm expecting them to shoot up to 220 for 3, but hopefully the effect on Sylvaneth will be offset by reductions elsewhere (as I think Sylvaneth as a whole are fairly balanced).

Agreed on all counts. I could see Drycha going up to 300 or even 320 since her mortal wound output is so strong, but I don't think she's enough of a problem as is to warrant it.

Of course, the other factor that could change everything is allies. I think it's been said that most if not all order armies can take Stormcasts as allies. Even if they're our only ally, getting access to the huge breadth of Stormcasts would give us access to plenty of units that can fill the damage dealing role in the event Kurnoth Hunters become too expensive to stomach. Of course I wouldn't use any of them since I can't stand Stormcasts, but that's just me Here's hoping we get some aelven allies too!

Interesting times ahead, that's for sure - can't wait to see what GHB2 brings and start coming up with lists to paint towards!

My opinion

Dryads: I don't think a price decrease will happen, the reduction at 30 is likely but even then I'll probably stick at 20. 30 dryads are hard to get all in range for attacks and 20 is enough to keep the save bonus a while (at least not loose it to a single spell or a few arrows) while not being inefficient in combat. Left over points mi gh t be spend there though.

Revenants: Obviously I think both should be 80 points (spites for 60 is a bit optimistic even though they might be a bit overcosted on 80 still). I'd like spite as battle line but think it will be only be with Drycha a general which is fluffy but not that appealing.

Hunters: 200 points I'd guess. Not sure that is fair.. but that is what will happen imho. Rumors where 220.. But that is really excessive. 

Treelord: probably the same. As mentioned I think he way less useful than a tla but,

TLA: increase to 320 would not be unreasonable but I'm not sure it will happen

Durthu: 360 please.. But probably gonna be 380.

Drycha: 300 .. Even 320 isnt very unreasonable.

Alarielle: I'd actually think she needs to be 580... But doubt it will happen..Maybe 600?

Wych/wraith: Compared to most compendium races etc 100 for Wych is right.. wraith due to limitations of matched play should be lower... However Compared to the buffers is khorne army or the overlords I think they are overcosted. Bloodsecrator buff... Way better than Wych. . Even the Slaughterpriest blessings are very strong. I'd personally say the khorne chars need a price increase though.  (AND a rule of 1 for those buffs.. looking at aether khemist and bloodsecrator)

[scrubyandwells]

7 hours ago, Aezeal said:

My opinion

Dryads: I don't think a price decrease will happen, the reduction at 30 is likely but even then I'll probably stick at 20. 30 dryads are hard to get all in range for attacks and 20 is enough to keep the save bonus a while (at least not loose it to a single spell or a few arrows) while not being inefficient in combat. Left over points mi gh t be spend there though.

Revenants: Obviously I think both should be 80 points (spites for 60 is a bit optimistic even though they might be a bit overcosted on 80 still). I'd like spite as battle line but think it will be only be with Drycha a general which is fluffy but not that appealing.

Hunters: 200 points I'd guess. Not sure that is fair.. but that is what will happen imho. Rumors where 220.. But that is really excessive. 

Treelord: probably the same. As mentioned I think he way less useful than a tla but,

TLA: increase to 320 would not be unreasonable but I'm not sure it will happen

Durthu: 360 please.. But probably gonna be 380.

Drycha: 300 .. Even 320 isnt very unreasonable.

Alarielle: I'd actually think she needs to be 580... But doubt it will happen..Maybe 600?

Wych/wraith: Compared to most compendium races etc 100 for Wych is right.. wraith due to limitations of matched play should be lower... However Compared to the buffers is khorne army or the overlords I think they are overcosted. Bloodsecrator buff... Way better than Wych. . Even the Slaughterpriest blessings are very strong. I'd personally say the khorne chars need a price increase though.  (AND a rule of 1 for those buffs.. looking at aether khemist and bloodsecrator)

Thanks @Mirage8112 for kicking this off and for everyone sharing their views. Fun topic. Here's some of my own thoughts FWIW: 

1. Sylvaneth are still competitive in the meta but not dominating, and they never have. They're often in the running, though, which is where one would hope they'll stay.

2. I'm as confident as possible Hunters are going up, whether justified or not, which (seemingly) means we'll need to get points back elsewhere to maintain the faction's internal competitive viability. Of course, Allies will throw us a big wrinkle. At the same time, I don't think Allies should be required to be competitive in matched play / at tournaments.

3. I suspect Hunters will go up to 220, so that's going to be a sizable hit for many lists, including the Alarielle (6 or 9 KH) / Drycha (12 or 15 KH) / Durthu (12 KH) variations of Gnarlroot. 

4. Gnarlroot is probably going to go up by at least 20 as well. Hopefully Household will stay at 20, even though I could see it going up 20 too.

5. Let's take the (common) list I ran last weekend at Slobberknocker: Ancient, Durthu, BWych, 2x10 Dryads, 1x5 TRevs, 2x3 Scythes, 2x3 Greatbows, Gnarlroot, Household, Free Spirits. With KH @ 220 + Gnarlroot @ 100, that list suddenly becomes 2,180pts. Personally, I think that list (among others we have) represents a baseline of strength we'd want maintained. The list hasn't been winning many tournaments. It has multiple counters, especially, as always, mortal wound output. 

6. So where do we get those 180pts back? (For ref, it's 220pts you'd have to get back in the common Drycha Gnarlroot variant w/ 15 KH.) The seeming need to get so many points back is why I'm hoping we'll see the following units drop in points, because they reflect units that are (primarily) only interesting choices within sylvaneth allegiance: 

• Dryads - 100 for 10 (at the moment their fine at 120, but again, if we need to get points back, this is a way of doing it; and personally I'm not a fan at all of the idea of getting points back by having to run a Massive Regiments unit of Dryads...one general concern is sylvaneth moving away from its viability as an elite, low-model-count army, which is personally one of the big reasons I love the faction)
• TRevs - 80 for 5 or 140 for 10 (since they come in an box of 5, I'm really hoping you don't have to buy 2 boxes to run a minimum unit...that'll cause some grief)
• Spite Revs - 80 for 5 (...and if they become a minimum unit of 10, that'll do away our hopes for Dreadwood...I don't think many want to run 40 Spite Revs)
• Treelord - 240 (I think one could shave off 20 pts (he's currently 260) and it'd be fine, but 40pts seems too much, especially with Behemoths becoming more relevant in at least one of the new Pitched Battles (Duality of Death)
• Branchwych and Branchwraith - 80 (again, doesn't seem a huge issue to shave off 20pts)
• Spirit of Durthu - 380 (I doubt he'll get 20pts shaved off, but would love to see it, because in the aggregate it could make a major difference to 2K lists) 

7. So going back to the list in #5, if the above had those new point values, my Slobberknocker list would now be 2,040pts. That's better than 2,180pts, but it's still illegal. 

8. Here's my guess on other point values:

• Alarielle - 580 (would love to see her drop a little again to help off-set Hunters going up, but in current sylvaneth points, she's not too bad at 620...if you use her well, she can be insanely good...one problem, though, is you can run up against lists that can take her out in the 1st round even if she's deployed on the board edge)
• Ancient - 300 (Lord of Change is 300, and both seem about right at that amount)
• Drycha - 280 (She seems fine at 280, especially if horde armies are going to become more prominent)