Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Nico]

Ok here's my first list with Alarielle:

Alarielle List
Gnarlroot Wargrove	80
Household	20
1 Treelord Ancient (Regrowth and Verdurous Harmony) (Briarsheath)	300
1 Branchwych (Verdant Blessing and Verdurous Harmony) (The Silverwood Circlet)	100
1 Loremaster (Treesong and Verdurous Harmony) (Acorn of the Ages)	100
1 Alarielle the Everqueen (Throne of Vines and Verdurous Blessing) General	620
5 Tree Revanants	100
10 Dryads	120
30 Dryads	360
3 Kurnoth Hunters (Bows)	180
	1980

It's a single drop as usual. The basic gist of this army is to be a magical gunline. The Treelord Ancient and Branchwych and the Loremaster (acorn) will spam Wyldwoods in front of the army/on the objectives as necessary.

The Loremaster buffs Alarielle with rerolls to hit and wound (including her shooting attack which is a 30 inch cannon ball).

Alarielle (bunkered behind the 30 Dryads) first casts Throne of Vines (+D3 to casting rolls), then she casts summon Balewind Vortex (on a 5), this gives her a total of +(D3+1) to casting rolls and doubles the range of her spells. She still has two spells remaining (summon Balewind refunds you a spell if it casts successfully). She can then fire off Metamorphosis - with an average +3 to cast, this should do 5 mortal wounds at a 32 inch range (wow - this is nearly as good as a single 320 point Thundertusk...). The downside is that she has to stand still for this turn. However, her shooting attack should still be in range of something. Finally she lobs a 36 inch range arcane bolt at an artillery crew. The Revanants try to kill something soft near a board edge.

The combo of her spells, shooting attack and the 3 bow dudes hopefully soften them up in the first turn. After that, the army can move forward. 

 

[scrubyandwells]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

Ok here's my first list with Alarielle:

[...]

The combo of her spells, shooting attack and the 3 bow dudes hopefully soften them up in the first turn. After that, the army can move forward. 

Wow. That's a sweet list. Thanks for sharing it + the prior ones + your detailed analysis. Would love to hear how this one does in particular. Very intriguing.

Are you sure the Loremaster can receive a Sylvaneth Allegiance Artefact via Gnarlroot Wargrove? Have you seen this clarified anywhere? 

[scrubyandwells]

2 hours ago, Nico said:

Alarielle (bunkered behind the 30 Dryads) first casts Throne of Vines (+D3 to casting rolls), then she casts summon Balewind Vortex (on a 5), this gives her a total of +(D3+1) to casting rolls and doubles the range of her spells. She still has two spells remaining (summon Balewind refunds you a spell if it casts successfully). [...]

Not very familiar with Balewind Vortex...is its use commonly accepted in organized play and just viewed as another example of summoning? That's clearly how the warscroll reads...just wondering if there's any pushback against its use, such as any tourneys not allowing it or what not. Is it used regularly at tourneys? The Rolling Vortex of Magic would be incredibly valuable on a Wizard like Alarielle, since you wouldn't be able to engage her in combat and only shooting/magic/abilities could take her out.

[scrubyandwells]

2 hours ago, Nico said:

Alarielle (bunkered behind the 30 Dryads) first casts Throne of Vines (+D3 to casting rolls), then she casts summon Balewind Vortex (on a 5), this gives her a total of +(D3+1) to casting rolls and doubles the range of her spells. She still has two spells remaining (summon Balewind refunds you a spell if it casts successfully). 

Also...I love the idea of seeing a Balewind Vortex conversion for a model the size of Alarielle, theming it around Ghyran Magic or what not, but just wondering if tourneys are not allowing its use, or whether it would be widely frowned upon.

[Corai]

Also...I love the idea of seeing a Balewind Vortex conversion for a model the size of Alarielle, theming it around Ghyran Magic or what not, but just wondering if tourneys are not allowing its use, or whether it would be widely frowned upon.

As far as I know, a lot of events are allowing it. I don't see how it's legal in GHB matches play though as to summon it surely it would need to be in your reinforcement points, but it does not have a points costs/profile in the GHB. What am I missing?

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[scrubyandwells]

1 hour ago, Corai said:

As far as I know, a lot of events are allowing it. I don't see how it's legal in GHB matches play though as to summon it surely it would need to be in your reinforcement points, but it does not have a points costs/profile in the GHB. What am I missing?

Oh yeah, good point. It does need a points value to be summoned in Matched Play. 

[rokapoke]

1 hour ago, Corai said:

As far as I know, a lot of events are allowing it. I don't see how it's legal in GHB matches play though as to summon it surely it would need to be in your reinforcement points, but it does not have a points costs/profile in the GHB. What am I missing?

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34 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

Oh yeah, good point. It does need a points value to be summoned in Matched Play. 

According to the GW General's Handbook FAQ (https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Errata/Warhammer_aos_generals_handbook_en.pdf), at the end of the first page, scenery costs zero points and can be summoned in Matched Play.

[scrubyandwells]

21 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

According to the GW General's Handbook FAQ (https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Errata/Warhammer_aos_generals_handbook_en.pdf), at the end of the first page, scenery costs zero points and can be summoned in Matched Play.

Thanks @rokapoke, I stand corrected.

Imagine adding Grombrindal into the mix w/ Alarielle, running the Ironbark or Winterleaf Wargrove. With re-rolls, you'd be more likely to get @Nico's combo off and increase your average to ~10 mortal wounds w/ her via your Hero Phase, although you'd be trading off the Loremaster for Grombrindal. Not sure if that's a good trade..

[SentinelGuy]

Anyone have any thoughts on treekin? I know they are a legacy scroll and that the models aren't amazing unless you do some serious conversion work but at 100 points they are one of the best units available for that cost and out perform a similar priced unit of dryads.

I plan to take a squad of 3 as blockers and chaff as with the ability to pop out of woods their slower speed is partly negated. It's the 4+ save that's appealing. Chuck on an arcane shield and get a wizard nearby to heal them up if needed (they give every wizard a weaker regrowth spell).

They seem great if you have 100 points left over and don't need another hero or unit of revenants.

[Forestreveries]

2 minutes ago, SentinelGuy said:

Anyone have any thoughts on treekin? I know they are a legacy scroll and that the models aren't amazing unless you do some serious conversion work but at 100 points they are one of the best units available for that cost and out perform a similar priced unit of dryads.

I plan to take a squad of 3 as blockers and chaff as with the ability to pop out of woods their slower speed is partly negated. It's the 4+ save that's appealing. Chuck on an arcane shield and get a wizard nearby to heal them up if needed (they give every wizard a weaker regrowth spell).

They seem great if you have 100 points left over and don't need another hero or unit of revenants.

Yeah I've been thinking exactly the same. They seem amazing for 100 points. With gnarlroot you can bring back a model every turn as well so a unit of 6 could tank really well. 

Granted not as well as Kurnoth Hunters ...but they are almost half the points!

I was was using them before sylvaneth battletome and they did well. 

 

If if you have your battleline covered but want some more units for objective holding then these are an excellent choice. 

Also I feel with Alarielle multi wound models are worth even more as she can keep topping up those wounds on any damaged models. 

They could be a really nice bodyguard for her as they are a lot of wounds to chew through for their points.

 

Aaron

 

[SentinelGuy]

Ah I'd missed that Gnarlroot bonus. 

[Nico]

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Are you sure the Loremaster can receive a Sylvaneth Allegiance Artefact via Gnarlroot Wargrove? Have you seen this clarified anywhere? 

It's the wording around artefacts and the Lore. It specifically says "wizard"/"hero" in a "Sylvaneth Army" - they have done this deliberately so that you don't get to use Alarielle in a Stormcast army with a Sylvaneth Lore spell. The Loremaster clearly fits this requirement.

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As far as I know, a lot of events are allowing it. I don't see how it's legal in GHB matches play though as to summon it surely it would need to be in your reinforcement points, but it does not have a points costs/profile in the GHB. What am I missing?

As discussed, the FAQs for the GH specifically provides for summoning scenery at no cost.

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The Rolling Vortex of Magic would be incredibly valuable on a Wizard like Alarielle, since you wouldn't be able to engage her in combat and only shooting/magic/abilities could take her out.

Furthermore an answer in the normal FAQ clarifies what the 3 inches rule means - it only applies in the movement phase - so you can still charge the wizard and get into combat. You'll need an 8 to make it up there from 3 inches away from the Balewind. I would just assume all the charging models are in range and put them to the side (or fit them into the 3 inch ring around the Balewind).

I'm finding the possibility of a Balewind a good thing as it reduces the awfulness of being given the first turn and facing off against a possible double turn as one of your wizards can actually do something more than casting mystic shield in turn one. This is especially the case for debuff spells (which should have had a 36 inch range from the start). Many of these would be useful but might only be castable by turn 4 of the game (your turn, their double turn, then your second turn). Festus is probably the pre-eminent example with his ridiculously bad 14 inch spell, but Dark Elf Sorceress, Be'Lakor and so on could get some use out of their spells with double range.

There are so many options for firing off long range mortal wounds in the shooting phase that I don't see a balance issue (Thundertusks are now all over the place, Warp Lightning Cannon and Hellcannon to name a few). The restriction on moving that turn is also significant (you wouldn't want to do it every turn for Nagash or Alarielle as you would want to move and attack with them. 

[SentinelGuy]

Doesn't the FAQ specifically state that non slyvaneth don't get to benefit from the allegiance abilities (which includes magic and items), they just get to count as sylvaneth for the purposes of generating the overall allegiance and calculating battleline units.

Also I'm sure the magic items and spells say that they have to be used by a sylvaneth hero/wizard if you read the text at the top of each page. 

[Nico]

What it says is they don't benefit from the Allegiance Abilities as they don't have the keyword Sylvaneth. This stops them using Forest Spirits and Navigate Realmroots in particular.

However, as discussed the relevant wording on the artefacts is:

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If a SYLVANETH army includes any HEROES, then one may bear an artefact of power. 

It doesn't say "Sylvaneth Heroes".

[See below for updates, they can use Lore but not Artefacts.]

The wording for the Lore is very clearly arranged:

Quote

"Each WIZARD in a SYLVANETH army knows an additional spell chosen from the Deepwood spell lore."

They could have said "SYLVANETH WIZARD" but chose not to as this would allow Sylvaneth wizards in other mixed Order lists to have the spells from the Lore.

I don't find it a terribly hard stretch to imagine a single hero getting integrated into the Sylvaneth army and receiving an artefact from them or being taught a single spell (less so if it's Kroak, but I wasn't suggesting that). The 2 Duardin Units formation is probably the best example, since the Duardin have helped them improve their weapons and come up with a specific artefact for the formation.

It's not a big point for my list as the Loremaster would be casting his own spell anyway.

 

 

[Nico]

Winterleaf Wargrove	100
Forest Folk	60
1 Branchwraith (The Reaping and Verdurous Harmony) (The Silverwood Circlet)	100
10 Dryads	120
10 Dryads	120
20 Dryads	240
20 Dryads	240
5 Sisters of the Thorn (Regrowth)	220
1 Treelord Ancient (General) (Gnarled Warrior) (The Oaken Armour) (Regrowth)	300
1 Treelord Ancient (The Oaken Armour) (Verdant Blessing)	300
3 Kurnoth Hunters (Bows)	180
	1980

Here's another army which is quite fluffy. Again - it's single drop. The core of it would come out of a few starter set boxes, which is a big plus for me.

I need to check the wording of Shield of Thorns in the Order Book - to check it is not restricted to Wanderers.

The larger blocks of Dryads are massively tough with +1 armour and another +1 armour and -1 to hit them in Wyldwoods. I'll add mystic shield and shield of thorns to make them into a lethal trap.

My concern is how expensive the Battleline units are. Spells triggering mortal wounds from Wyldwoods will likely be integral to doing damage in this list.

The two ancients spam Wyldwoods everywhere with the passive ability and the spell on one of them - I think I'm going to go with the approach from Mc1Gamer on YouTube- cutting out Wyldwood shaped sections of a swampy Fat Mat for budget Wyldwoods. They can also take Shield of Thorns and Mystic Shield and go play.  

 

 

[SentinelGuy]

I'm really not trying to cause an argument but in the app in the allegiance abilities document it does say SYLVANETH HEROES and SYLVANETH WIZARDS. It says that right underneath the subheading for the arcane treasures and the magical artefacts. 

I was trying to prove to myself earlier that you could use the items on non Sylvaneth units but rules as written it doesn't allow it. It's the same for the Ironbark item. You can choose it instead of choosing from the generic items. Therefore if you can't choose from the generics then you can't use it.

The spell lore is a grey area though.

Don't misunderstand me, I want to be able to use them, but rules as written it's not allowed.

[RossMHoward]

What are peoples Opinions on the Moonstone of Hidden Ways + Throne of Vines. 

Vines to add d3 to cast and unbind. Gnarlroot to gain 2 cast and unbinds a turn. 

Cast Vines on a Branchwraith in the hero phase and then use the Moonstone to remove her from play and set her up anywhere 4" away from an enemy. 

The issue with this is that the moonstones wording suggests that this happens INSTEAD OF movement. But would doing so cause the Branchwraith to lose Throne of Vines which is sacrificed as soon as the model is moved? 

It'd be useful if this is a legal move to create some sort of mid board cheaper unbinding unit. 

[Nico]

It would work with the Forest Folk formation as you move in the hero phase.

 

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I'm really not trying to cause an argument but in the app in the allegiance abilities document it does say SYLVANETH HEROES and SYLVANETH WIZARDS. It says that right underneath the subheading for the arcane treasures and the magical artefacts.   I was trying to prove to myself earlier that you could use the items on non Sylvaneth units but rules as written it doesn't allow it. It's the same for the Ironbark item. You can choose it instead of choosing from the generic items. Therefore if you can't choose from the generics then you can't use it.  The spell lore is a grey area though.                
 

 

Good spot!

Ok so no artefacts, but can take a Lore spell (which makes more sense probably).

 

[Nico]

On a brain success for me - the exploding hits in the Winterleaf Wargrove for Dryads does synergise with their +1 to hit Enrapturing Song ability.

[SentinelGuy]

9 minutes ago, Nico said:

On a brain success for me - the exploding hits in the Winterleaf Wargrove for Dryads does synergise with their +1 to hit Enrapturing Song ability.

If you use the ORDER slot to take a battlemage then you can use the lore of beasts to give you +1 to wound as well. That might be quite powerful with big units of dryads.

[SentinelGuy]

I spent the morning meeting at work coming up with ideas for an Ironbark Wargrove list at 2000 points.

Ironbark Wargrove

Household

1 Treelord

1 Spirit of Durthu - General, Gnarled Warrior, Briarsheath

1 Branchwych - The Silverwood Circlet, The Reaping, Regrowth (the weakened spell from Tree Kin)

5 Tree Revenants

5 Tree Revenants 

1 Branchwraith - Regrowth (Sylvaneth lore), Ranu's Lamentiri

30 Dryads

6 Tree Kin

10 Irondrakes

1 Runelord

 

The Irondrakes and Runelord camp an objective and go monster/elite unit hunting. The Runelord buffs the shooting of the Irondrakes because -2 rend or -3 on the torpedo is brutal. If they end up in combat he can always swap to buffing their defence instead.

The Revenants take out back field artillery, support units and can be used to hold enemies in place with their abilities from the Household battalion.

The Dryads, Treelord, Spirit of Durthu, Branchwych and Tree Kin move up, claim objectives and act as my front line units.  If needed the Tree Kin can act as chaff or if supported by the wizards they can act as a wall being healed and arcane shielded each turn.

The Branchwraith is there to chuck spells out to heal or shield my units as necessary. She will hang back and try and claim protection from the woods.

*Edited to show full 2000 point list*

[Nico]

Another option for that Ironbark Wargrove is a Runesmiter plus a unit of 30 Vulkite Berserkers. This means you can deepstrike away from the Wyldwoods - enemy not safe anywhere.  

[SentinelGuy]

Yes that would work brilliantly   I just don't like the fyreslayer models much.

Looking at my list above I think the natural expansion to 2000 points is adding a Spirit of Durthu as the general (with him taking the items and abilities off of the Treelord) and bumping the Tree Kin up to 6 miniatures.   Then the Kin really do become a brick wall. 

 

[Nico]

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Looking at my list above I think the natural expansion to 2000 points is adding a Spirit of Durthu as the general (with him taking the items and abilities off of the Treelord) and bumping the Tree Kin up to 6 miniatures.   Then the Kin really do become a brick wall.

I also looked at the old Treekin the other day, however, I don't rate them. Granted - for 100 points you get 12 wounds of Treekin and for 120 points you get 10 wounds of Dryads. However Dryads have one compelling advantage which is the -1 to hit them with melee and shooting if they are in or near a Wyldwood.

I cannot overstate how big a deal that is. For an enemy unit hitting on 4+ - it's one third of the damage gone (which is double the effect of a mystic shield, which knocks off one sixth of the damage in a simple case). For a 3+ to hit attack, it still takes out one quarter of the damage. Furthermore, it removes or mitigates all the many procs on 6s to hit - Retributors, Executioners, Bloodletters, Daemonettes....

Another big downside of Tree Kin is bravery 6 on a 4 wound model - that's a disaster waiting to happen. Battleshock could devastate them.

The downside of Dryads is that they suck in small numbers.

 

 

 

 

[Nico]

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Yes that would work brilliantly   I just don't like the fyreslayer models much.

They are fun to paint.