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Let's Chat Sylvaneth


scrubyandwells

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6 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

Agree with @Aezeal: Gnarlroot and other battalions seem tough to take in 2K, and doubly so in 1.5K. I like the look of Ancient, 20 Dryads, 5 TRevs, 6 Scythes, and 6 Bows. It could struggle in Duality of Death, so you might swap one of the 3 Kurnoth for a Treelord. 

Or 2, I don't think they are a worse choice since they have shooting too. 

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7 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

Hi @Nick Dicehammer, in terms of your Q/requirements,  are you looking for a sylvaneth army/list that takes the edge off quite a bit? That is, an army/list that most opponents would be able to defeat, and would be able to defeat relatively quickly? Or are you looking for an army/list that could defeat, say, 50% of opponents quickly? 

I would like an army that is fun, easy and quick to play but isn't a total pushover in games.  I guess I would like the best of both worlds from your post above. 

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Quick question re: Alarielle's Talon of the Dwindling attack. Does the defender choose the order of damage applied from the Antlers / Talon? Situation - my Alarielle is attacking a unit of Mournfangs. I deal 5 antler damage and 1 talon damage. Now if the antler damage is applied first, one model takes 5 wounds, dies, and another takes 1. This would allow Talon's ability to activate, possibly killing the model. However, if the talon were assigned first, the remaining antler damage would kill the model and deal 1 additional wound to another. This would not allow the Talon ability to activate (assuming I read it correctly). My reading of the rules seems to indicate that the defender allocates all damage from whatever source they wish at one time - meaning the Talon ability will rarely see use.  

Would splitting the Antler and Talon attacks to different units be the most effective? Antlers on a large block/unit and Talons one elite multi-wound models?

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1 hour ago, Freejack02 said:

Quick question re: Alarielle's Talon of the Dwindling attack. Does the defender choose the order of damage applied from the Antlers / Talon? Situation - my Alarielle is attacking a unit of Mournfangs. I deal 5 antler damage and 1 talon damage. Now if the antler damage is applied first, one model takes 5 wounds, dies, and another takes 1. This would allow Talon's ability to activate, possibly killing the model. However, if the talon were assigned first, the remaining antler damage would kill the model and deal 1 additional wound to another. This would not allow the Talon ability to activate (assuming I read it correctly). My reading of the rules seems to indicate that the defender allocates all damage from whatever source they wish at one time - meaning the Talon ability will rarely see use.  


This is my reading as well. All the attacks are carried out, and then the defender allocated wounds as he sees fit. It means there is definitely a strategy to the order in which wounds are assigned if you are targeting a single unit. It seems like it makes it less useful, but it's also a balancing mechanism. For such a powerful ability it's probably a good idea to have a way to mitigate it (at least a little bit). 

There could be mental game to this as well. Roll your antler attack first (hits, wounds, saves) and declare that you are doing it. Then roll your talon attack (hit wounds save), and declare you're doing it. Then, after it's all resolved and it's time to distribute damage, say "The antler attack does 5 damage apiece". Chances are he'll distribute that damage first. Then tell him the talon does 1 damage. 

Leading an opponent to distribute damage in a way that benefits you is a big part of the psychological game that goes hand in hand with game tactics. It's sneaky, but he doesn't have to do it that way, (and a savy opponent will know what abilities do before they engage combat). But the doesn't mean you can't lead them in a direction that beneficial to you. ;)
 

1 hour ago, Freejack02 said:

Would splitting the Antler and Talon attacks to different units be the most effective? Antlers on a large block/unit and Talons one elite multi-wound models?


That would work as well and is probably the preferred tactic one you opponent figures out what everything does. 

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19 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

Leading an opponent to distribute damage in a way that benefits you is a big part of the psychological game that goes hand in hand with game tactics. It's sneaky, but he doesn't have to do it that way, (and a savy opponent will know what abilities do before they engage combat). But the doesn't mean you can't lead them in a direction that beneficial to you. ;)

Say it ain't so! My group already hates it when I play Sylvaneth because of the wood-spam, now I have to mentally toy with them as well... does the psychological damage know no bounds?!? ;) 

Yeah, I don't relish the thought of charging Alarielle into two different threats; but to maximize the Talon potential it does seem like the most effective way. Also opinions: is she worth stressing a Gnarlroot for just to run her with a Loremaster? No doubt they are an effective duo, but not sure if it's a worthwhile endeavor at 2k. Is Gnarlroot even effective at 2k, considering the cost? Quick list something like:

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
Treelord Ancient (300)
Branchwych (80)
Alarielle the Everqueen (600)
Loremaster (100)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
30 x Dryads (270)
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (220)
- Greatbows
Household (70)
Gnarlroot Wargrove (180)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
 

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15 hours ago, Nick Dicehammer said:

I would like an army that is fun, easy and quick to play but isn't a total pushover in games.  I guess I would like the best of both worlds from your post above. 

Cool! Yeah the Free Spirits suggestion is a good one. Spirit of Durthu is a lot of fun since he's powerful but very swingy and relatively easy to kill for quite a few armies (especially since you need to get him into combat to do his thing, which means he's often in range of lots of mortal wounds coming his way). Sometimes he'll destroy a unit, sometimes he'll whiff, and sometimes he'll die before he even makes it into combat. When he does his thing, though, he's a joy to behold. 

Here's one list attached that I think would be pretty fun to play while still being competitive.

Good luck!

Screen Shot 2017-09-29 at 12.05.32 AM.png

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4 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
Treelord Ancient (300)
Branchwych (80)
Alarielle the Everqueen (600)
Loremaster (100)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
30 x Dryads (270)
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (220)
- Greatbows
Household (70)
Gnarlroot Wargrove (180)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400

If facing a middle-of-the-road competitive field, I think the above could do pretty well. Against a field with a lot of top lists and experienced players, though, it would probably struggle.  It doesn't really have enough threats and has too many eggs in the Alarielle basket, and she's easy to kill (or chaff/ignore) for quite a few good lists, especially if you're double turned. I do think she could be viable in a mixed Order list, though, with a Loremaster and other efficient friends. :)

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I was thinking about the recent podcast with Shaun. The following seemed worth a look as variations on the theme we discussed.

The first swaps the Waywatcher and one of the 3 KH Bows for 2x5 Judicators.

The second does that + swaps one of the 5 TreeRevs for a Knight-Azyros and splits the 20 Dryads into 2x10.

In general, I suspect the first variation is stronger than the second.

While Judicators have certain limitations over KH Bows, their RR 1s to hit vs Chaos (especially Tzeentch and Khorne) is notable. They also provide a few extra bodies for screening and/or standing back and sitting on objectives. 

With the second variation, the Azyros further improves the KH Bows + Judicators vs all armies via his RR 1s to hit vs any target within 10" of him. In the least, that means he probably becomes a priority target for your opponent (especially vs Chaos with his one-time D6-mortal-wound 8" bubble), so in turn he's taking attention away from something else. 

first_variation.png

second_variation.png

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3 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

Say it ain't so! My group already hates it when I play Sylvaneth because of the wood-spam, now I have to mentally toy with them as well... does the psychological damage know no bounds?!? ;) 

Lmao. I play Dark Eldar in 40k. Some habits are hard to break. xD 

 

21 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

I'm hopeful @Mirage8112 or someone else with Dreadwood can manage to do well vs a good Tzeentch player with one of their top lists, and then share with the rest of us how the hell they did it (we can theory all day but of course we ultimately need to see things on the table with the right conditions (i.e., it needs to be versus a player who knows what they're doing, they need to be playing a strong Tzeentch build, etc.).

 

@scrubyandwells Lol don't you trust me? xD Oh ye of little faith...

All kidding aside, do you remember when BCR came out and we spent 20+ pages working through the permutations of dealing with double/triple stonehorns/husktusks? Tzeentch is the new BCR in terms of tough opponents for Sylvaneth. I'm not saying that Dreadwood is perfect counter (because it most certainly isn't), but it's not as if there are any better or "proven" alternatives at the moment. I don't think Gnarlroot is the way to go personally, because gnarlroot's play style is basically what DioT does, except not as well. Gnarlroot relies on range and spell casting to overcome some of the weaknesses inherent in a Sylvaneth army. But with Skyfires for range, and guaranteed unbinds/castings from destiny dice, as well as fairly decent cc units, I think Gnarlroot is trying out magic the Ultimate Magician and outshoot Robin hood. While I haven't play tested the Dreadwood build vs a DioT list yet, I actually play a DioT list as my second (well... 5th) AoS army, so I'm reasonably confident in the match-up (as confident as one can).

The problem is that both lists have strengths and weaknesses that depend pretty heavily on rolls. Destiny dice are critical for DioT and if the roll is bad (no 6's and no 1's for example) it can make the game much more difficult. Likewise for Dreadwood, a low stratagem roll combined with bad initiative roll can make things equally difficult. Likewise the different scenarios in the GHB favor one army or the other, so there are a hell of a lot of variables that go beyond "competitive lists and good players."

So this is my thought. Write me a competitive 2k DioT list, something that you would expect to see at a tournament (i.e. not particularly tailored for Sylvaneth. Perhaps @Nico would like to contribute on this matter) and I'll see if i can find somebody to playtest it with me. We'll set it up with an "average" destiny dice roll and use 2/3 of the dreadwood stratagems. I have a few players at my local club that are very competent players (Kyle, my opponent from my dreadwood test is actually very good, although I think he's a bit annoyed me after our last game [not that I blame him xD].) and I'll sit down and see if I can put it through its paces.    



 

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1 minute ago, Mirage8112 said:

@scrubyandwells Lol don't you trust me? xD Oh ye of little faith...

All kidding aside, do you remember when BCR came out and we spent 20+ pages working through the permutations of dealing with double/triple stonehorns/husktusks? Tzeentch is the new BCR in terms of tough opponents for Sylvaneth. I'm not saying that Dreadwood is perfect counter (because it most certainly isn't), but it's not as if there are any better or "proven" alternatives at the moment. I don't think Gnarlroot is the way to go personally, because gnarlroot's play style is basically what DioT does, except not as well. Gnarlroot relies on range and spell casting to overcome some of the weaknesses inherent in a Sylvaneth army. But with Skyfires for range, and guaranteed unbinds/castings from destiny dice, as well as fairly decent cc units, I think Gnarlroot is trying out magic the Ultimate Magician and outshoot Robin hood. While I haven't play tested the Dreadwood build vs a DioT list yet, I actually play a DioT list as my second (well... 5th) AoS army, so I'm reasonably confident in the match-up (as confident as one can).

The problem is that both lists have strengths and weaknesses that depend pretty heavily on rolls. Destiny dice are critical for DioT and if the roll is bad (no 6's and no 1's for example) it can make the game much more difficult. Likewise for Dreadwood, a low stratagem roll combined with bad initiative roll can make things equally difficult. Likewise the different scenarios in the GHB favor one army or the other, so there are a hell of a lot of variables that go beyond "competitive lists and good players."

So this is my thought. Write me a competitive 2k DioT list, something that you would expect to see at a tournament (i.e. not particularly tailored for Sylvaneth. Perhaps @Nico would like to contribute on this matter) and I'll see if i can find somebody to playtest it with me. We'll set it up with an "average" destiny dice roll and use 2/3 of the dreadwood stratagems. I have a few players at my local club that are very competent players (Kyle, my opponent from my dreadwood test is actually very good, although I think he's a bit annoyed me after our last game [not that I blame him xD].) and I'll sit down and see if I can put it through its paces.    

;)

Love your idea! You're on, my friend. I'll put something together and send your way. And yeah it'd be awesome to hear from @Nico as well. 

Incidentally, I tend to agree with you on Gnarlroot vs Tzeentch, especially now that it's 250pts. 

Very excellent point re: "there are a hell of a lot of variables that go beyond 'competitive lists and good players'."

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53 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

Incidentally, I tend to agree with you on Gnarlroot vs Tzeentch, especially now that it's 250pts. 

Very excellent point re: "there are a hell of a lot of variables that go beyond 'competitive lists and good players'."

It's not just the battalion costs. I think you hit the nail on the head easier when you said:
 

23 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

but for us in particular with our low-model count and lack of mortal wound protection, yeah it's a pain in the ---, no way around it.


This is the reason why I think Dreadwood will fare better than Gnarlroot in DioT matchup:

A typical Gnarloot list brings between 42-45 models to the field with ~97 wounds. Most of that is tied up with ~400 points in essential characters (TLA and the Loremaster), and 660 points tied up in in a single unit of heavy hitters (hunters w/scythes)  After much theorycrafting and play testing, it seem pretty obvious for me that this is exactly what DioT excels at handing. DioT is in some ways point and click, with the ability to throw huge amounts of guaranteed damage (more or less) into a single target, basically overwhelming it off the field. Even if you split the hunters up, and run them as bows rather than scythes, Skyfires are more than capable of taking 1 unit off in a single turn in CC, and if their positioning and rolls are good (or they burn a few DD) they are quite capable of severely wounding a second (especially if they're running big unit of 9). They are also fairly immune to forests, since Skyfires can fly, making them less of safe bet to mitigate CC damage vs dryads. In a gnarlroot list you really feel the loss of a unit (except the T-revs), since there are no redundant units to pick up roles if something eats the dust. 

Dreadwood by contrast brings slightly more wounds to the field (~110) but read over a wider area (~60 models). It only has 280 points tied up in essential characters (Drycha) and less than 100 tied up with the general. The investment in hunters is relatively small (440 vs 660) and most of the time you'll expect to lose them after dropping them into your opponents lines in the first turn. There's not really any one thing thing that's critical to the lists success that you aren't planning on sacrificing (Drycha is the only exception, but at 280 points you aren't really trying to squeeze her in, and she's not designed to be a major component of late-game play.)  

Dreadwood (in contrast to Gnarlroot) doesn't really have the type of targets a DioT player would want to see:

Want to snipe out the general? Go ahead and try. I would love to see you attempt to shoot her out with skyfyres considering that -2 to hit and a 3+ save ignoring rend under -2. And if you want to try magic you'll have to burn DD for the cast since I have a throne of vines wizard nearby getting +D3 to unbinds (and they can no longer use DD to fix spell damage, so it will probably take more than 1 spell). But even then why would you want to? She doesn't really do anything exceptional and isn't really that important to the list.  

Want to shoot the unit of dryads? Sure. Go ahead. -1 to hit, 30 bodies sporting a 3+ save. I'll wait.  

Want to shoot the revenants? I have 4 groups of 5 and they don't really do anything except get in your way. 

Treelord? Sure you can try. A 3+ save means he'll probably survive and get healed up next turn. 

How about CC? Go ahead and try to charge the characters; they're surrounded by dryads. Or the Treelord; he's surrounded by spites.

Want to charge the dryads? Sure. There's 30 of them and they're standing in a forest. Anything other than skyfires and the forest will eat them. And if you do bring skyfires, there's no way to clear them in a  single round of combat and they'll get positively massacred by the return attacks with their pitiful 5+ save and no rerolls in my turn) 

You might be able to get Drycha, or the hunters under normal deployment circumstances. But the thing is, with the points changes to DioT in GHB17, there just isn't the points available for the meta-battalions if you want to max out your damage/spellcasting potential. Which means in a tournament build, your DioT opponent will probably forgo the 1 drop army. No need to charge the hunters/drycha: they'll likely come to you. 

Again, I'm not saying dreadwood is a sure thing. But it certainly doesn't have some of the structural disadvantages present in your standard Gnarlroot list. 

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I've played the two classic DoT builds a couple of times each (The Changehost and a a Skyfire heavy one - though never a maxed out Skyfire one). I've managed to get wins (Minor and Major) against the Skyfire heavy ones, but not come really that close against the Changehost one. I think that's the one that really poses a problem. Unfortunately think the same applies for Dreadwood, unfortunately. The amount of mortal wounds all the casters kick out just means they tear you to pieces. Dreadwood might increase your chances, but a good player will use all his horrors to protect his good units from your alpha strike - then you're in his face for loads of mortals!

I might have missed something, still haven't experimented with a Dreadwood build. I agree that it seems better against the Skyfire build, but the top DoT build at Blackout a few weekends ago was the Changehost one. 

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Good discussion @scrubyandwells And @Mirage8112

What you've omitted is that 20 or especially 30 Dryads will get popped by Infernal Flames from the Gaunt Summoner.

If you wanted to beat DoT as Sylvaneth you would probably need to take a list that wouldn't be good vs other lists - namely spamming bow hunters, taking turn one with a single drop army (ideally Winterleaf) and sniping all of the 5 wound heroes (ignore the LoC it's too difficult to take him off with that kind of shooting in one turn). Then you might be able to grind them down. This list is a straight loss against Stormcast though.

DoT get wet dreams about playing Gnarlroot lists and the biggest problem is that the standard tactic of plonking Scythe Hunters in front of the enemy in cover isn't going to work. It just puts them in spell range and the only things charging in will have -2 or -3 rend.

 

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27 minutes ago, Lhw said:

I've played the two classic DoT builds a couple of times each (The Changehost and a a Skyfire heavy one - though never a maxed out Skyfire one). I've managed to get wins (Minor and Major) against the Skyfire heavy ones, but not come really that close against the Changehost one. I think that's the one that really poses a problem. Unfortunately think the same applies for Dreadwood, unfortunately. The amount of mortal wounds all the casters kick out just means they tear you to pieces. Dreadwood might increase your chances, but a good player will use all his horrors to protect his good units from your alpha strike - then you're in his face for loads of mortals!

I might have missed something, still haven't experimented with a Dreadwood build. I agree that it seems better against the Skyfire build, but the top DoT build at Blackout a few weekends ago was the Changehost one. 

@Lhw - Thanks for sharing your experiences so far. Does the attached look roughly like one of the top Changehost builds? Just going off top of my head (didn't specify spells etc.). We should probably just find Tony Moore's Blackout list and @Mirage8112 / et al. could test against it. 

Screen Shot 2017-09-29 at 1.54.28 AM.png

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9 minutes ago, Lhw said:

Pretty close - except forgetting the summoning. Which is pretty key, unfortunately. Makes it really tough to just smash through the chaff - which we kind of rely on. Send Scythes into them and they just split. 

Everybody gets hung up on the alpha strike component of the list. It's not the only play you can make with dreadwood, but I still feel compelled to point something out: 

Split happens at the end of the phase after all the other attacks have been carried out. The alpha strike play is designed to have hunters work in tandem with Drycha. Ergo, Drycha clears the chaff, then the hunters pile in to whatever is behind it (you can still pile in and attack if you've charged) That's 5" to work with and should be more than enough to put wounds into something.

Also, It's tough to bubble wrap in every direction, because If i might point out, you get an additional move after the redeploy + charge. (In the last game my opponent bubble wrapped his general with a bunch of troops preventing me from getting at him from the front, so I just went around the back.) It's not just the front or back either, there's also the sides to think about as well. 30 bodies isn't enough to protect everything everywhere in all directions; something will be vulnerable. And if not, there's also tactics you can use other than alpha-strike. ;) 

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The best bet would be to take the 12" range cap and give them turn one. Use Spites to prevent Changeling to LoC swapping into 12" from any heroes. Then you will spend your assumed double turn killing all their chaff (they will spit out a further 10 Pinks, 10 Blues and 10 Brims from their pool. 

If you had Flitterfuries, then you might luck out and kill a 5 wound hero or two.

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7 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

@Mirage8112 - Either Nico's or Tony's that Laurie shared would be solid to test against. Just looking at them on paper makes me queasy.  O.o


lol. Looks like fun. I'll have to see if I know somebody who can field this list. It's full of big models so it might be kind of tough, but I'll see what I can do. 

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Quote

Split happens at the end of the phase after all the other attacks have been carried out. The alpha strike play is designed to have hunters work in tandem with Drycha. Ergo, Drycha clears the chaff, then the hunters pile in to whatever is behind it (you can still pile in and attack if you've charged) That's 5" to work with and should be more than enough to put wounds into something.

This is optimistic. There is nothing behind them except the 5 wound heroes and the LoC who have no reason to be near the front. There's no chunky combat unit to sink your Scythes into. Granted - they could mess up their deployment - but cannot count on it.

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Just now, Nico said:

The best bet would be to take the 12" range cap and give them turn one. Use Spites to prevent Changeling to LoC swapping into 12" from any heroes. Then you will spend your assumed double turn killing all their chaff (they will spit out a further 10 Pinks, 10 Blues and 10 Brims from their pool. 


That would be the plan if you are going to forgo the alpha-strike.

But also, you're forgetting we're assuming 2 stratagems. 12" range cap already prevents swapping since it limits ALL abilities to 12". Plus you get a free move before the game starts for 3 dreawood units. should be more than enough to get a hero in range of the changeling or get a unit to surround it and then bring the hero in (Especially with Drycha and her 7" move and huge base).

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