Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[scrubyandwells]

13 hours ago, Mossback said:

Anyone think we might get some new Sylvaneth models this year? We really have only nine options, not counting the one off Alarielle and Drycha. With the Stormcasts having so many troop options, it would be nice to add in some variety. Maybe some sort of medium range javelin throwers or swarms of shrubs like Nurglings. Thoughts?

Let's hope no Death, Skaven, or Grot players have been made physically ill reading that comment.  I'm sure we'll see new sylvaneth at some point (especially since they've sold like gangbusters), but here's rooting for good tidings for others.

 

[scrubyandwells]

15 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

@scrubyandwells Hope that helps bud. 

-F

You rock sir. This is outstanding. Sending a PM your way. 

[Nico]

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but here's rooting for good tidings for others. 

Love that pun!

[Nico]

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Let's hope no Death, Skaven, or Grot players have been made physically ill reading that comment. 

Don't forget Brayherd and Warherd as they are now. At least they get to look at their superior Tzeentch cousins with envy I suppose.

 

[Nick in York]

5 hours ago, Aezeal said:

Please share

Well so far it still needs a lot of work as it is too cumbersome. Is basically a table on Word sperated by phase. For each phase I've listed the abilities in the order they need to be used and which character has them. Helps me remember everything. I'll see if I can screen shot what I've done so far - was for a 500 point game - but you might have to wait a few days as I've got a unit of dryads to finish painting and basing for a competition at my local GW on Sat.

[Mirage8112]

 

4 hours ago, Nico said:

One further tweak if you want even more alpha is to give Alarielle Throne of Vines instead of Regrowth.

After having put herself 16" forward before the game starts properly (so just out of the unbinding range of their pro wizard). She casts that and gets average +2 or hopefully +3 to cast roll for herself, for her next two spells. Then she casts Metamorphosis (potentially on a 2+). Ideally have her touching some Arcane Terrain in the middle of the table somewhere too. The spell then does 0.5*(the result of the casting roll) of mortal wounds at a target. Hence, with +3 to cast, she could do a jolly 0.5*(12+3) = 7.5 mortal wounds at 16" range. Depending on how that goes, she can then cast either bolt as final spell or mystic shield with +1, +2 or +3 to cast, to put herself on a 2+ save reliably. #MysticShieldWinsGames

Also take the Damned Buff from any terrain in the middle of the board and then heal herself with Amphorae as well.

 

 

That's a good call on throne of vines.

Incidentally, When I calculated the potential of a Dreadwood Alpha-strike list, I didn't include any damage output from magic in my totals, nor did I add in the mortal wounds from hunters stomp, and I didn't consider the re-roll command trait on Alarielle herself. The adjusted totals are as follows:

If everything goes according to plan, that brings the total wound output in the first turn to ~67 wounds. 33 from the hunters with Scythes at -2 rend (rerolling hits/wounds), 4-5 mortal wounds from the hunters stomp ability, 7.5 mortal wounds from metamorphosis+throne of vines, and 22 from Alarielle in CC (all but 2 of those wounds being at -2 rend. The two without rend are from the talon of dwindling which has it's own special abilities).  

Yep, you read that right; 67 wounds with statistically average rolls, 10-13 of them mortal. It does require rolling at least 2 traits on the stratagem table (67% chance of doing so) and not having throne of vines or metamorphosis dispelled. (pretty good chance if you're careful with your target selection.) But considering that this list puts 3/4 of it's own wound count (~97 wounds) in damage on the first turn (at -2 rend no less) there's not much that can stand up to that.
 

4 hours ago, Nico said:

Also brace yourselves for the LoC with his 27" unbinding bubble of ruining Sylvaneth's day. I rolled out the Disciples of Tzeentch yesterday to horrible effect vs Sylvaneth at the South London Legion vs Ben Savva. This will be even worse with the Changehost+Changeling so they can teleport the LoC into casting and unbinding range turn one (and potentially match you single drop army for single drop army). This is on top of summoning a cheap inbinding wizard into range of your wizard (and relying on destiny dice as a guaranteed unbind). It's a really interesting match up (since Kurnoth Bow Hunter spam taking turn one is the hard counter to the LoC (or LoCs) and his posse of horrific wizards (before they can get Shield of Fate, Mystic Shield, Daemonic Power and Mystic Shield and Oracular Visions on). 

Back about 20 pages ago this is pretty much the scenario I was worried about with gnarlroot. Up until DoT dropped there wasn't really a hard counter to Sylvaneth's Gnarlroot casting abilities; we were pretty much free to just replenish/heal our forces as the enemy chipped away at them. Granted not every army has access to this type of mechanic, but it seems to me that this is army I'd worry about drawing in competitive play if I was running "the standard". 

Some events allow you to bring two lists in which case Dreadwood and Gnarlroot would be my first choices. Winterleaf could be a viable choice as well, but I'm not sure the bonuses are really that much better vs. this particular chaos list (I mean rerolling 1's for hit and wound are nice, but it's not exactly a great equalizer). Plus, it really seems to me like pink horrors with reserve points for splitting (even if it's only one unit) makes a pretty effective tarpit when it takes at least 3-4 combat rounds to clear. If they are using those destiny dice rolls of "1" for battleshock tests that could go on even longer. Exploding dryad attacks are great but pretty ineffective if they're just trying to churn through endless pink/blue/brimstone horrors all game. 

The single drop is even more of a worry. So much of what we've put together strategy-wise depends of us getting the first turn by combining all our units into a single battalion. If the enemy has the same list structure, that goes from being a guarantee to being a roll of 4+. Since we can't drop units into wyldwoods if the enemy is within 9", we run the risk of getting shut out of our own woods with no easy way to bring units from the hidden enclaves onto the table. Also dreadwood works mainly on the premise of a first turn strike, (i haven't really sat down a worked out a contingency for being out-deployed)  not to mention that fact that demons have ld 10 making the outcast battalion less effective if they go the demon route. @Nico since you've played this, what are your thoughts on developing a counter?

 

[Nico]

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Incidentally, When I calculated the potential of a Dreadwood Alpha-strike list, I didn't include any damage output from magic in my totals, nor did I add in the mortal wounds from hunters stomp, and I didn't consider the re-roll command trait on Alarielle herself. The adjusted totals are as follows:

That's good news. Watch me buy Alarielle now!

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Back about 20 pages ago this is pretty much the scenario I was worried about with gnarlroot. Up until DoT dropped there wasn't really a hard counter to Sylvaneth's Gnarlroot casting abilities; we were pretty much free to just replenish/heal our forces as the enemy chipped away at them.

There was but his name was Nagash and sideboards are rarely 1000 points.

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Some events allow you to bring two lists in which case Dreadwood and Gnarlroot would be my first choices. Winterleaf could be a viable choice as well, but I'm not sure the bonuses are really that much better vs. this particular chaos list (I mean rerolling 1's for hit and wound are nice, but it's not exactly a great equalizer). Plus, it really seems to me like pink horrors with reserve points for splitting (even if it's only one unit) makes a pretty effective tarpit when it takes at least 3-4 combat rounds to clear. If they are using those destiny dice rolls of "1" for battleshock tests that could go on even longer. Exploding dryad attacks are great but pretty ineffective if they're just trying to churn through endless pink/blue/brimstone horrors all game. 

I would go dual list Winterleaf (hello reroll ALL hit and wound rolls of 1 vs CHAOS) and Dreadwood.

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The single drop is even more of a worry. So much of what we've put together strategy-wise depends of us getting the first turn by combining all our units into a single battalion. If the enemy has the same list structure, that goes from being a guarantee to being a roll of 4+. Since we can't drop units into wyldwoods if the enemy is within 9", we run the risk of getting shut out of our own woods with no easy way to bring units from the hidden enclaves onto the table. Also dreadwood works mainly on the premise of a first turn strike, (i haven't really sat down a worked out a contingency for being out-deployed)  not to mention that fact that demons have ld 10 making the outcast battalion less effective if they go the demon route. @Nico since you've played this, what are your thoughts on developing a counter?

DoT now have the most cost effective chaff in the game (40 points for 10 Brimstones at Bravery 10, which FINALLY beats the 100 points for 20 wounds of Savage Orruks/Arrers). They also have splitting trickery etc.. Frankly you don't want to alpha strike them unless you can get the double turn or if they mess up deployment. As soon as they get a turn in with their wizards in range, they will fire all the mortal wounds in the world at you with their spells and spank their destiny dice until all your valuable stuff is dead (any fives and sixes are especially bad). They are essentially a short range (18") mortal wound bunker with possible Skyfires to add pew pew at range (or summoning Skull Cannons). This means that they should lose out to long range bunkers. Take out their long range pew pew first, then get rid of the squishy casters, then you engage in melee. Frankly a Winterleaf list full of Bow Hunters (the rerolls are INSANE) and a Hurricanum or a Dreadwood list full of bow hunters (use the ability which limits their range to 12" on their spells, would be tasty options. All the LoCs or other casters of note (the one(s) with the Fold Reality Spell in particular - this can bring back 6 Skyfires) need to be dead, before you engage with melee units. If you want to be more inventive, then take the Winterleaf and a War Altar of autodeleting Daemons. Go read the scroll, laugh and then reread it, laugh some more.

[Aezeal]

The war altar is OK. . But it's damage output is not that insane. Don't know it's points Atm though.

[Mirage8112]

7 hours ago, Nico said:

DoT now have the most cost effective chaff in the game (40 points for 10 Brimstones at Bravery 10, which FINALLY beats the 100 points for 20 wounds of Savage Orruks/Arrers). They also have splitting trickery etc.. Frankly you don't want to alpha strike them unless you can get the double turn or if they mess up deployment. As soon as they get a turn in with their wizards in range, they will fire all the mortal wounds in the world at you with their spells and spank their destiny dice until all your valuable stuff is dead (any fives and sixes are especially bad). They are essentially a short range (18") mortal wound bunker with possible Skyfires to add pew pew at range (or summoning Skull Cannons).

I don't know if I would call them the most cost-effective chaff in the game. If you wanted to bring them as part of a pink horror "split" chain, it's going to cost you 320 points (if you wanted them to split to their full potential). If you wanted to bring them solo they are indeed very cheap; 40 points for 10 as you said. But they are only movement 5 which means you're going to struggle to get them anywhere useful. You could feasibly use them to bubble wrap something sitting on an objective... say Tzaangor Enlightened. That way, when the enemy activates to clear a path to the enlightened, they can use their "guided by the past" ability to re-roll hit/wounds) But that's a pretty limited use for them. You can't summon them like the pinks, and you've got better units to catapult around with the Changehost, so I can't see any reason for taking them solo. 

But even if you do take them as part of a splitting pink horror chain, they are arguably a better tarpit than dryads. Not only can they shoot, but it's nearly impossible to clear them off in a single game turn. Dryads will wilt like leaves in the sun in the face of a charge from a Stonehorn or Ironguts. But Pink horrors will take a minimum of 3 turns to clear (since they're placed at the end of the combat phase). At 320 points, vs a unit of Dryads at 240, the price is fair (especially since they are not dependent on wyldwoods for their tar-pittyness) but they will be a problem to deal with. Especially if they're using 3 battleline units of horrors strung out in a line of 5 x 3. Even with only enough reserve points for 1 unit to fully split that gives a lot of flexibility. 

As an interesting side note, a unit of 10 tarpit horrors is perfect trap for hunters. I've always said hunters should be run with swords in groups of 3 and scythes in groups of 6, (unless you were going to use them specifically for hunting highly armored targets of 3+ or better) due to sword hunters having more attacks. Swords will easily clear the first 10 horrors in 1 combat round, but scythes will need 2 rounds to clear 10 horrors. After the first split, it will take scythe hunters 3 more combat rounds to fully clear the split blue horrors (vs 2 for swords), and another 3 rounds to clear the brimstone horrors (vs 2 for swords). That's the difference between being tied up in combat for 4 game turns, vs 2 1/2. And if he's got any extra 1's in his destiny dice pool he could feasibly tie up those hunters the entire game. If you are to double that hunter unit to 6 (2 unit of 3 for swords), swords still fare better. 5 rounds for 6 scythe hunters vs 3 rounds for 2x3 for sword hunters. Not pretty either way. 

Tying up 1 unit of 180 hunters for 320 points isn't exactly game breaking, but being able to spread out and tie up 2 could feasibly be trouble (as could tying up Durthu for 3 rounds while he's shot to pieces.) With smart deployment using 3 battleline horrors to bubble wrap the general and two other valuable units makes a CC alpha strike nearly impossible by denying the 9 scythe hunters a juicy easy-to-reach target. The fact that they can pretty much stop ANY CC unit for at least 1 1/2 turns is a problem.

8 hours ago, Nico said:

...they should lose out to long range bunkers. Take out their long range pew pew first, then get rid of the squishy casters, then you engage in melee. Frankly a Winterleaf list full of Bow Hunters (the rerolls are INSANE) and a Hurricanum or a Dreadwood list full of bow hunters (use the ability which limits their range to 12" on their spells, would be tasty options. All the LoCs or other casters of note (the one(s) with the Fold Reality Spell in particular - this can bring back 6 Skyfires) need to be dead, before you engage with melee units. If you want to be more inventive, then take the Winterleaf and a War Altar of autodeleting Daemons. Go read the scroll, laugh and then reread it, laugh some more.

A long range bunker with say 9 winterleaf bow hunters backed by a Celestial Hurricanum put out around 20 wounds after re-rolls. That's not an insignificant amount of wounds considering the range is 30". The standard loadout puts this list at 1600 points (9 hunters and a Hurricanum +2 x20 dryads and 1x5 T-rev for battleline) leaving 400 points to play around with. 

But it certainly isn't auto-win. The Hunters can deep strike, but the hurricanum cannot. In order to take advantage of the +1 to hit and get the best target in them first round, you'll need to be within 10" of the Hurricanum and come into your forest dead center of the board. To do that, you'll definitely want to go first, but if it's single drop vs single drop it's only 50/50 that you'll get first turn. If you don't get first turn (50/50 shot after all), it's pretty easy for the DoT player to get in the woods and deny the opportunity to deep strike. Without another way to bring woods onto the board, anything in the enclaves is stuck and building any wood redundancy into the list just eats up points. 

But, assuming you did get first turn, what would you do if he reserved his LoC, dropped a changeling mid-field, and then summoned the LoC in his first hero phase using destiny dice? Changelings can't be targeted so there's pretty much no way to stop him, plus FAQ has ruled Summoned units can act as normal in the turn they arrive. Skyfires have a range of 24" but can also move 16" on top of that, so it would be rather easy to deploy them well out of range since will be pretty obvious where you're coming in. That just leaves a bunch of unappealing targets to choose from (pink horrors? tzaangor? Arcanites?). Plus you might have just handed his newly summoned LoC a double turn with your hunters hanging out mid-field with no support and their pants down... 

I'm not sure that an aggressive deployment (something that usually works well for us) is the best plan here. Since our deployment is so predictably tied to our woods, dropping a big unit of hunters in a central forest basically "splits" the army into two parts. There's just too many things that can go wrong with that strategy, and the destiny dice mechanic makes the DOT player more flexible in those first few rounds.

So, if you expect to be confined to a "traditional" deployment what list do you bring and how do you deploy? Especially if you're expecting the possibility of not getting the first turn. 

 

[Aezeal]

Woods redundancy is 100 points: a wych with acorn and summon woods spell covers things.. 2 wyches with acorns isn't bad either :D.

[Nico]

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As an interesting side note, a unit of 10 tarpit horrors is perfect trap for hunters. I've always said hunters should be run with swords in groups of 3 and scythes in groups of 6, (unless you were going to use them specifically for hunting highly armored targets of 3+ or better) due to sword hunters having more attacks. Swords will easily clear the first 10 horrors in 1 combat round, but scythes will need 2 rounds to clear 10 horrors. After the first split, it will take scythe hunters 3 more combat rounds to fully clear the split blue horrors (vs 2 for swords), and another 3 rounds to clear the brimstone horrors (vs 2 for swords). That's the difference between being tied up in combat for 4 game turns, vs 2 1/2. And if he's got any extra 1's in his destiny dice pool he could feasibly tie up those hunters the entire game. If you are to double that hunter unit to 6 (2 unit of 3 for swords), swords still fare better. 5 rounds for 6 scythe hunters vs 3 rounds for 2x3 for sword hunters. Not pretty either way. 

Isn't there a problem here due to the rule about not exceeding the initial unit size. Let's say you shoot 2 Pink Horrors, that gives you a choice of creating a brand new unit of 4 Blue Horrors (at a full cost of 50) or (assuming that you're allowed to elect not to use the Split rule, which is probably the case) you can choose to do nothing. If you do create the unit of 4 Blues, then you're unable to top this unit up due to the not exceeding the initial size of the unit rule. So when you attack again in the combat phase and kill say 3 more Pink Horrors, then the Tzeentch player is left with the choice of either creating another derpy unit of 6 Blues (capped at 6 for ever) for a full 50 points or just not using the Split rule. In some cases, it will still be worthwhile.

The scenario above, where they all die in one phase, is what you want to avoid.

Or you can just flood them with Gryph Hounds and shoot each new Blues unit. Ok that's an aside as we're talking about Sylvaneth but seemed like a fun thought.

This Split mechanic will be strongest vs Khorne and Ironjawz where almost all the damage will happen in the combat phase. What's particularly scary is setting up the Blues as a unit within 6" of the Pinks as this allows you to conga and potentially to block other units or flood objectives.

It's weaker than it seems (or than it would be in narrative play).

It well if you're opponent plays into your target selection, by whittling down a big Block of Blues and then killing Pinks which allows you to top up the Blues without spending reinforcement points. The trick is to kill the Pinks in small increments across different phases. Impact hits in the charge phase would be effective too.

[Aezeal]

Splitting in new (unengaged but still close) units might take evenlonger to clear... but the points it will take will probably not make it worth your while.

[Nico]

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But it certainly isn't auto-win. The Hunters can deep strike, but the hurricanum cannot. In order to take advantage of the +1 to hit and get the best target in them first round, you'll need to be within 10" of the Hurricanum and come into your forest dead center of the board. To do that, you'll definitely want to go first, but if it's single drop vs single drop it's only 50/50 that you'll get first turn. If you don't get first turn (50/50 shot after all), it's pretty easy for the DoT player to get in the woods and deny the opportunity to deep strike. Without another way to bring woods onto the board, anything in the enclaves is stuck and building any wood redundancy into the list just eats up points. 

 

 

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I'm not sure that an aggressive deployment (something that usually works well for us) is the best plan here.

Absolutely, I mean bunker like a coward, keep walking backwards or teleporting elsewhere. Flood the middle of the table and anywhere else with Wyldwoods which his spells will trigger. Keep shooting!

You don't want to deep strike, you may want him to go first and then try to double turn him. Sit back and let him come to you. If he has gone mass Skyfires then work out whether the whole unit will pop with Battleshock or not (look at his Destiny Dice).

You want to be spamming Woods away from him in the back field and keeping out of 18" range at all times. He can get his LoC to teleport in and zap you, keep the 12 wound heroes off the table if necessary. Gnarlroot would help by bringing back Hunters that get zapped.

It's a lot harder to do a single drop army for Tzeentch than it is for Sylvaneth. They have to take some units that they really don't want to take.

The Alarielle+Dreadwood list is badly suited to taking on Tzeentch (assuming that they have the bodies to protect the core). Destiny dice of 6 to stop -2 rend 6 or D6 damage attacks going through are also a serious counter to alpha strikes.

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Changelings can't be targeted so there's pretty much no way to stop him

We have one of the few hard counters, the Forest Spirits battalion allows the Branchwraith to set up next to him in the hero phase (conveniently it's in "your territory" so anywhere he can go, you can go too), say hello, reveal him and then kill him. This is another reason why Winterleaf is a strong option since it emphasises Forest Spirits.

Don't Charge him with Durthu though.

It's going to be a very interesting match up.

The Wyldwoods can potentially be the lifeline, by denying territory where the Tzeentch player can safely cast spells. 

 

 

[Nico]

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The war altar is OK. . But it's damage output is not that insane. Don't know it's points Atm though.

D3 shots, so call it 2. 3+, 2+, -1, 3 damage.

Except against Chaos Daemons, where it's 3+, 2+, -2, 6 damage. You can take Damned buff and then heal it with the Regrowth spell for 2+ 2+, -2.

[Aezeal]

That is still just above 50% chance to hit per attack.. so avarage 6 damage (excluding damned) for the price of ~ 1,66 unit of hunters. 5 hunters would be 10 shots of which 3-4 (considering  a bit better hit ratio for maybe 2 champions) would impact at D3 damage and a lower rend vallue. Damage is nearly equal and hunters have longer range, drop less in damage output, more wounds and don't do half damage against anything non chaos.

Now I know my maths is a bit rough here.. but I'd say the damage against chaos is slightly higher for the altar, much lower against all other stuff. Then you trade better survivability, longer range, their special abilties and a bit less drop in damage when getting wounded (certainly the first 4 wounds) against 2 unbinds (which can be significant), better speed and better melee. Not to mention that regrowth spell you mention works better on the hunters than on the altar.

Overall I think I'd just go with the hunters really, that 10"range difference can be important.

[Nico]

Good points. However,  the reliability of 6 damage is rather nice though. Means they will need to waste "6" destiny dice to save them (4+ -2 rend), rather than "5" versus Hunter pew pew.

[Aezeal]

Don't know the mechanic except from Silver Tower.. don't know how much of those dice they get.. but would it generally be worth it to spend it on chaff?

Anyway it's probably better to just get a Hurricanum for 20 points more. It's storm of Shemtek has NEARLY same range and does 5 mortal wound average damage I think,. Then it has a pretty nasty spell which can damage too AND boosts shooting from any hunters your army might have (and the chance of that is reasonably large I'd say). Plus he's a reliable mystic shield caster with the +1 to cast.

 

THB all options seems to have a reasonably similar damage output.. but I'd probably still consider the altar the worst of them... especially against non chaos where its'damage output drops like a meteor.

[Nico]

Hurricanum is indeed the easy option.

[Aezeal]

4 minutes ago, Nico said:

Hurricanum is indeed the easy option.

Yeah I probably should get one  especially since I play Gnarlroot mostly. But since I play 1500 points usually I've not really been able to fit it in a list and make it worth my while. In a 2K list next to at least 2 units of hunters it would fit much better. (and luckily a hurricanum and a unit of hunters is exactly 500 points :D)

[Paul G]

Hey guys, looking to get a little advice on the list I'm building towards!



I'm keen to use the Dreadwood war grove, and know this isn't the strongest variations of that list, but I envision it working like the Dryads camping in advantageously placed woods, along with the treelord Ancient - with a unit or two of spites behind to help with enemy battleshock + mortal wounds. The rest of the army would use the Dreadwood movement abilities.

Should I swap out the extra 10 Dryads or Tree Revenants for a Branchwych to help with places of power?

How effective have people found a single unit of bow Kurnoth Hunters? I've yet to build my second unit and wonder whether to go with the bows or scythes (already build one with swords).

[Nico]

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How effective have people found a single unit of bow Kurnoth Hunters? I've yet to build my second unit and wonder whether to go with the bows or scythes (already build one with swords). 

Variable.

It's a tragedy that you've already built the Swords. Wait until you get a mirror matchup and find a Gnarlroot Treelord Ancient has gotten into combat with your Sword Hunters and they cannot hurt him (35/36 save vs -1 rend) AND you cannot retreat from combat (and Navigate Realmroots probably does count as a move sadly (and hence a retreat) - I'm going to concede the point). Game over.

Presumably you're going to YOLO in Drycha to cause as much damage as possible with Ambush.

Given the comp to Dreadwood, I would be inclined to play it either the way that @Mirage8112 and I have cooked up with Alarielle and 6+ Scythe Hunters, or alternatively to use it as an anti bunker army by using Hidden Attackers.

For the latter, Hidden Attackers approach, you would max out the pew pew as much as possible. Make the enemy go first (almost everything they have will be out of effective range (other than teleporting tricks and Stonelords who manage to find a way around the Wyldwoods). Then play for the double turn. Deploy (safer than Navigating Realmroots as you cannot roll a 1 for stupid) your pew pew Kurnoth Hunters into Wyldwoods in the middle of the table at maximum range from and shoot their shooting to bits, then deploy the Dryads and Spite Revenants just in front of them. Then slowly move backwards while you keep shooting. 

 

 

[Aezeal]

BTW it's accepted you can teleport OUT of combat (even if you have to follow retreat rules) with navigate realmroots and/or the ability of the tree revenants right. (I had them kill the crew of a hellcannon b (the chaos dwarf one at least) by teleporting in and since I was playinig against the previously mentioned player who objects against everything I just didn't bother to try and teleport them out again (and they don't really have a chance against the cannon in a fight but I think I am allowed just to flee that cannon and retreat-teleport my remaining revenants to the other side of the board). 

Also... artillery with only crew killed doesn't get me any killpoints right? (especially the hell cannon obviuosly.. but I don't see why other arti would give me points if they have something with a warscroll still standing.. even if its'worthless)

[Shorewood]

4 hours ago, Nico said:

Variable.

It's a tragedy that you've already built the Swords. Wait until you get a mirror matchup and find a Gnarlroot Treelord Ancient has gotten into combat with your Sword Hunters and they cannot hurt him (35/36 save vs -1 rend) AND you cannot retreat from combat (and Navigate Realmroots probably does count as a move sadly (and hence a retreat) - I'm going to concede the point). Game over.

Presumably you're going to YOLO in Drycha to cause as much damage as possible with Ambush.

Given the comp to Dreadwood, I would be inclined to play it either the way that @Mirage8112 and I have cooked up with Alarielle and 6+ Scythe Hunters, or alternatively to use it as an anti bunker army by using Hidden Attackers.

For the latter, Hidden Attackers approach, you would max out the pew pew as much as possible. Make the enemy go first (almost everything they have will be out of effective range (other than teleporting tricks and Stonelords who manage to find a way around the Wyldwoods). Then play for the double turn. Deploy (safer than Navigating Realmroots as you cannot roll a 1 for stupid) your pew pew Kurnoth Hunters into Wyldwoods in the middle of the table at maximum range from and shoot their shooting to bits, then deploy the Dryads and Spite Revenants just in front of them. Then slowly move backwards while you keep shooting. 

 

 

I've cranked out the math on the swords vs scythes and because of the extra 1 attack, Greatswords outperform scythes against 4+ 5+ and 6+ saves.  For 3+ saves they are nearly equal in expected wounds to get through while only on 2+ saves do Scythes outperform Greatswords.  So while scythes are good at opening tin cans, greatswords are better at a much wider range of opponents. 

So while the treelord ancient is near unkilliable with a 2+ rerollable (assuming mystic shield gets off), it just means you tarpit the guy with a squad of dryads and then proceed to ignore it while you murder the rest of his army, preferably starting with his branchwych and working out from there. 

Swords are good, but when you take them it is with the understanding that they are not going to open 2+ saves well (although against 2+ anything but a treelord ancient they do okay, only need a few failed 3+ saves to add up the damage).  they are meant to beat medium armored troops over the head. 

Scythes are much more specialized, you take them when the other elements of your list are not suited to crack tin cans.  Now with the dreadwood you will ideally be able to use drycha to just flood enemies with mortal wounds between her squirmlings, her spell and the combo with the spites, and mortal wounds do a damn good job against 2+ saves. 

[Nico]

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So while the treelord ancient is near unkilliable with a 2+ rerollable (assuming mystic shield gets off), it just means you tarpit the guy with a squad of dryads and then proceed to ignore it while you murder the rest of his army, preferably starting with his branchwych and working out from there. 

Are you planning on winning the roll off to determine who gets to deploy first (and hence choose who goes first)? Otherwise that Ancient is heading straight towards you (and he might even have a Starseer giving him +1 to charge with Curse of Fates and a bunch of rerolls).

While it's a well trodden debate Swords vs Scythes, what people forget is how often they will come up against those bonkers defences where -2 rend can make the difference. Pretty much every Sylvaneth army I see at events is either Gnarlroot with 35/36 Ancient; or Alarielle plus friends. Seraphon can do it, even Dispossessed and Fyreslayers can get crazy rerollable saves. Even DoT can get a lot of rerollable saves in. Wholly denying Plaguebearers their armour save is rather nice too. The Durthu on a 2+ rerollable save (even if it is subject to rend) or a 1+ rerollable save with Mystic Shield is going to laugh at your -1 rend as well. The average damage output doesn't matter as much if once every tournament the -2 rend turns a sure fire major loss into a major win. 

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they are meant to beat medium armored troops over the head. 

Dryads can do this, or the Ancient can do this, or Drycha can do this with Squirmlings.

[Aezeal]

Things with 2+ save (mostly only monsters or hero's, single model OR few model elite units with multiple buffs) will probably not get much wounds from her squirmlings, spell or the outcasts interaction.

Having said that I'd probably still go swords myself for the first 3, scythes for the 2nd 3 of melee hunters. (EXCEPT in specialized alpha strike lists where you need them in a single unit as discussed above.) But I'd probably start with 6 bow hunters or more anyway