Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Nico]

 

Quote

 

Considering we've seemed to reach a consensus that Wyldwood trees block movement (we have haven't we?) 

CERTAINLY NOT

Edited Friday at 05:10 PM by Aezeal

 

This debate will outlive Alarielle herself.

Shall we all settle on a practical solution - ask the TO in advance for the specific event, maybe even publicise what the ruling on it will be.

There are so many sub-distinctions as to this now and good and sincerely held arguments both ways for every position (e.g. is it just the area of space covered by the imaginary cylinder coming out of the base (convenient), is it the entire volume occupied by the trees (simple, does what it says on the tin), do the trees have to be stock models or can they be converted for reasons that are not blatantly exploitative - e.g. a special protruding branch at Stonelord Spear height; and can you pick up the trees assuming that the laws of physics and the properties of glue so permit to insert models into the Wyldwood.

I personally was going to replace the Trees with conical mini volcanic eruptions that are burning down the Forest, which magical water (e.g. coming out of the legs of my models) is then attempting to cool down (I still need to catch Vince Venturella's video on lava - busy December+January has shredded my hobby time). I'll now check this for the next GW event I take Sylvaneth to (which does not mean that I'm taking Sylvaneth to the next GW Event - I genuinely haven't decided). There's also Rule of Cool, which is always a strong one. Keep it Simple also makes the occasional appearance. 

From a gaming perspective, it might be safer to assume that 20+ Dryads just aren't going to fit in a Wyldwood and an Ancient is going to be just as unable to find a way through as the marginally bigger Stonelord (incidentally Stonelords would be a lot less undercosted if they were on Gordrakk bases - any hero on a tiny base with a disproportionate amount of damage output is an interesting proposition (take a bow Hooded Villain)). The trick might actually be to put a Wyldwood next to a regular piece of terrain that gives cover and is flat (land of joy). Then have most of the Dryads in that terrain (especially if it's Inspiring or Deadly to an opponent coming into you), but also have a tail of Dryads who are giving you the holy grail of -1 to hit against pew pew and melee. 

Here's another little quiz - how many digressions are there in this post (including this one)? I haven't counted. 

Sleep well!

[scrubyandwells]

Hi guys, sylvaneth were out in force over the weekend at GW's AoS Grand Tournament Heat 1.

If you haven't seen Warhammer Live's coverage, I highly recommend Day 1. Let's just say we finally got our faction featured on WH Live.

There were a number of different 2K lists at the event, but here's one in particular that did incredibly well (playing on Table 2 in the final match, I believe...), from Darren Watson: 

• Treelord Ancient
• Drycha Hamadreth
• 10 Dryads
• 10 Dryads
• 5 Tree-Revenants
• 3 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes)
• 3 Kurnoth Hunters (Greatbows)
• 3 Kurnoth Hunters (Greatbows)
• 3 Kurnoth Hunters (Greatbows)
• 3 Kurnoth Hunters (Greatbows)
• 3 Kurnoth Hunters (Greatbows)

Darren chose to skip any battalions, allowing him to fit a ton of shooting while still having a nice mix of other elements.

The list is similar to one I've been looking at for AdeptiCon (below), but Darren's might be stronger, especially for AdeptiCon, where they're rolling for abilities.

• Treelord Ancient
• Branchwych
• Mistweaver Saih
• 10 Dryads
• 10 Dryads
• 5 Tree-Revenants
• 3 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes)
• 3 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes)
• 3 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes)
• 3 Kurnoth Hunters (Greatbows)
• 3 Kurnoth Hunters (Greatbows)
• 3 Kurnoth Hunters (Greatbows)
• Gnarlroot Wargrove + Household

It also seemed a number of lists winning multiple games were running two or three units of only 10 Dryads, rather than bigger blocks of 20 or more.

Also, 'didn't hear if anyone played sylvaneth at Heat 1 with the Skink Starseer. As discussed, we might do quite well with him, allowing us to potentially re-roll our opponents' priority roll and re-roll our own as needed, which could be very significant, since it seems the priority roll is having visible influence on some of the games.

[Aezeal]

6 hours ago, Nico said:

 

This debate will outlive Alarielle herself.

Shall we all settle on a practical solution - ask the TO in advance for the specific event, maybe even publicise what the ruling on it will be.

There are so many sub-distinctions as to this now and good and sincerely held arguments both ways for every position (e.g. is it just the area of space covered by the imaginary cylinder coming out of the base (convenient), is it the entire volume occupied by the trees (simple, does what it says on the tin), do the trees have to be stock models or can they be converted for reasons that are not blatantly exploitative - e.g. a special protruding branch at Stonelord Spear height; and can you pick up the trees assuming that the laws of physics and the properties of glue so permit to insert models into the Wyldwood.

I personally was going to replace the Trees with conical mini volcanic eruptions that are burning down the Forest, which magical water (e.g. coming out of the legs of my models) is then attempting to cool down (I still need to catch Vince Venturella's video on lava - busy December+January has shredded my hobby time). I'll now check this for the next GW event I take Sylvaneth to (which does not mean that I'm taking Sylvaneth to the next GW Event - I genuinely haven't decided). There's also Rule of Cool, which is always a strong one. Keep it Simple also makes the occasional appearance. 

From a gaming perspective, it might be safer to assume that 20+ Dryads just aren't going to fit in a Wyldwood and an Ancient is going to be just as unable to find a way through as the marginally bigger Stonelord (incidentally Stonelords would be a lot less undercosted if they were on Gordrakk bases - any hero on a tiny base with a disproportionate amount of damage output is an interesting proposition (take a bow Hooded Villain)). The trick might actually be to put a Wyldwood next to a regular piece of terrain that gives cover and is flat (land of joy). Then have most of the Dryads in that terrain (especially if it's Inspiring or Deadly to an opponent coming into you), but also have a tail of Dryads who are giving you the holy grail of -1 to hit against pew pew and melee. 

Here's another little quiz - how many digressions are there in this post (including this one)? I haven't counted. 

Sleep well!

Yeah I'll be sure to ask. I only play locally and they use self made forests from teh shop (which are also used for several other games and usually they clear the forests when troops move in. It'll be a whole different game if it's played differently though ( I admit blocking the butchers from beastclaws would be nice and my behemoths don't need to be in the forest.. so it might not be worse for me.. just different). 

[DantePQ]

Considering those Warhammer GT lists 2 lists were in TOP5 one that was featured above with tons of Kurnoth Hunters and the other one more traditional. 

Leaders
Treelord Ancient (300)
-General
- Artefact: The Oaken Armour
- Command Trait: Gnarled Warrior
Spirit of Durthu (400)
-Artefact: The Oaken Armour
Branchwych (100)
-Artefact: Acorn of Ages

Units
10 Dryads
5 Tree-revenants
5 Tree-revenants
6 Kurnoth Hunters with scythes
3 Kurnoth Hunters with greatbows
3 Kurnoth Hunters with greatbows

Warscroll Battalions
Gnarled Wargrove (80)
Household (20)
Free Spirits (40)

 

I must playtest that Kurnoth Hunters list but so far I have 12 kurnoth hunters I like how well rounded it is still - a lot of small shooting units which are extremly tough to kill, Drycha to kill big units and TLA to give everything re-rolls (I am curious what artefacts and command traits he choose for Treeman Ancient)

 

 

[scrubyandwells]

Liam Cook also had a great showing at Heat 1, finishing 8th with the following sylvaneth list, a modification on one of the most popular builds: 

• Treelord Ancient
  • Gnarled Warrior, Oaken Armour, Regrowth
• Spirit of Durthu
  • Oaken Armour
• Branchwych
  • Not sure re: artefact/spell
• Sorceress
  • Her spell: On 7+ cast, one visible enemy unit within 16" suffers one mortal wound and must subtract 1 from their hit rolls until your next hero phase
• 20 Dryads
• 5 Tree-Revenants
• 5 Tree-Revenants
• 3 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes)
• 3 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes)
• 3 Kurnoth Hunters (Greatbows)
• Gnarlroot Wargrove Battalion
• Household Battalion
• Free Spirits Battalion

[DantePQ]

So 3 lists in Top10 (and 2 in Top5) that's pretty amazing   

[Nico]

Quote

The list is similar to one I've been looking at for AdeptiCon (below), but Darren's might be stronger, especially for AdeptiCon, where they're rolling for abilities.

Do you mean laying out the carpet for Warrior Brotherhoods (or even Clan Skryre with a favourable match up) to win? "Oh, we didn' get Reckless, better roll that 3" charge after all first time - what's that - you didn't get the 5+ Ward save, so I've killed all your squishy heroes who needed that 5+ ward." Or "Poor Stonelord, going to have to go to rehab to get off his Battle Brew Addiction." 

Quote

Also, 'didn't hear if anyone played sylvaneth at Heat 1 with the Skink Starseer. As discussed, we might do quite well with him, allowing us to potentially re-roll our opponents' priority roll and re-roll our own as needed, which could be very significant, since it seems the priority roll is having visible influence on some of the games.

I did - he's a fascinating mini game all by himself. A lot of fun and guaranteed drama. More details to come.

There was even a Kairos vs Starseer game - old Kairos! Despite having 2 rerolls in the bank, I believe I rolled a 2 and (very nice guy) Adam rolled a 5, then I rerolled the 5 and 

The fact that new Kairos can no longer virtually guarantee initiative rolls is probably a good thing, and means that the other ways of potentially nudging it (which are all far more unreliable and far more risk reward - Coven Throne (What's a Coven Throne? Don't you mean a VLoZD?), Starseer (who gave my opponents only slightly fewer rerolls than me); and Lords of the Expensive Fully Kitted Out Lodge of 160 points - should not need to be nerfed any more.

These will become vital for trolling DoT players, i.e. making them reroll the dice that they use Destiny Dice to "fix the result" of any of the types of roll they want. I now own two of them. 

[Nico]

Quote

Yeah I'll be sure to ask. I only play locally and they use self made forests from teh shop (which are also used for several other games and usually they clear the forests when troops move in. It'll be a whole different game if it's played differently though ( I admit blocking the butchers from beastclaws would be nice and my behemoths don't need to be in the forest.. so it might not be worse for me.. just different). 

It's a thorny issue (pun inadvertent but spotted). It makes a massive difference, especially to muppets like me who try to play with Gordrakk or other models which require a helipad of their own to land. Gordrakk cannot fly over a line of grots 1 grot wide without running (as I found out against @Darranat Blood & Glory). Alarielle can make it as she is faster. However, she will not be able to clear a wood easily.

For the record Gordrakk is (obviously subjective) by far the most fun Warscroll in the game and has truly stunning potential in the right circumstances.

[DantePQ]

Ok So I made that list what do you think ? 

 

Alarielle the Everquenn - 620 - Regrowth 

Spirit of Durthy - Gnarled Warrior, Oaken Armour 

 

Battleline

10 Dryads

10 Dryads

5 Tree-Revenants

 

Troops 

3 Kurnoth Hunters - bows

3 Kurnoth Hunters - bows 

3 Kurnoth Hunters - scythes 

 

I got 100 pts left so I can add :

-Branchwych with Acorn of Ages also she gives me another spell (so maybe I can give Alarielle Throne of Vines ) 

-another units of Tree-Revenants (they run them 10 in one unit or bump up Dryads to 20) - more troops 

-cut one unit of Kurnoth Hunters and add Drycha - I compromise number of Kurnoth Hunters to include another big character but it gives me nice tactical options and more mobility. 

What do you think ?

Why Alarielle ?  I just love that model 

 

 

[scrubyandwells]

Hi @DantePQ, looks like a fun list! Some folks have done quite well @2K with Alarielle and a Spirit of Durthu together. If you were to drop the scythes and add Drycha, you'd have Craig Namvar's 4th-place-finish list from Blood & Glory. 

[DantePQ]

Hi thanks a lot

It'sjust what I have painted at this moment in this winter theme , still waiting for more Kurnoth Hunters  

But some more specific question 

is Regrowth for Alarielle optimal ? 

And artefacts and command traits for Druthu (is it worth making him general?) 

[scrubyandwells]

16 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Hi thanks a lot

It'sjust what I have painted at this moment in this winter theme , still waiting for more Kurnoth Hunters  

But some more specific question 

is Regrowth for Alarielle optimal ? 

And artefacts and command traits for Druthu (is it worth making him general?) 

Yeah if she's the only Wizard, Regrowth is probably the best choice, especially to heal up the Spirit of Durthu, who you'll likely want taking wounds for her via Solemn Guardian. 

With your list above, yeah I'd probably make Durthu the general and give him Gnarled Warrior and Oaken Armour in most instances, or Seed of Rebirth if facing mortal wound spam. Personally I'm also a fan of Lord of Spites + Oaken Armour, since the former allows you to re-roll the first missed hit for Durthu in your shooting phase and combat phase, which can be a huge bonus, especially if Durthu isn't within 3" of a Wyldwood for his +D3 attacks.

[Nico]

Quote

The list is similar to one I've been looking at for AdeptiCon (below), but Darren's might be stronger, especially for AdeptiCon, where they're rolling for abilities.

Do you mean laying out the carpet for Warrior Brotherhoods (or even Clan Skryre with a favourable match up) to win? "Oh, we didn' get Reckless, better roll that 3" charge after all first time - what's that - you didn't get the 5+ Ward save, so I've killed all your squishy heroes who needed that 5+ ward." Or "Poor Stonelord, going to have to go to rehab to get off his Battle Brew Addiction." 

Quote

Also, 'didn't hear if anyone played sylvaneth at Heat 1 with the Skink Starseer. As discussed, we might do quite well with him, allowing us to potentially re-roll our opponents' priority roll and re-roll our own as needed, which could be very significant, since it seems the priority roll is having visible influence on some of the games.

I did - he's a fascinating mini game all by himself. A lot of fun and guaranteed drama. More details to come.

There was even a Kairos vs Starseer game - old Kairos! Despite having 2 rerolls in the bank, I believe I rolled a 2 and (very nice guy) Adam rolled a 5, then I rerolled the 5 and 

The fact that new Kairos can no longer virtually guarantee initiative rolls is probably a good thing, and means that the other ways of potentially nudging it (which are all far more unreliable and far more risk reward - Coven Throne (What's a Coven Throne? Don't you mean a VLoZD?), Starseer (who gave my opponents only slightly fewer rerolls than me); and Lords of the Expensive Fully Kitted Out Lodge of 160 points - should not need to be nerfed any more.

These will become vital for trolling DoT players, i.e. making them reroll the dice that they use Destiny Dice to "fix the result" of any of the types of roll they want. I now own two of them. 

[Nico]

Regarding Soul Amphorae from another thread - of great relevance to Alarielle lists:

Quote

Has it been specifically stated somewhere by someone with authority that this is not a typo. (I mean the whole context.. alarielle can do this in the hero phase ... USUALLY hero's act in their own hero pahse) I know that RAW you are correct.. but I doubt it is as intended. (And I'm sure my opponents would frown to say the least when I do this).

I originally looked at this and came to the same conclusion (typo), but then apparently it was ruled the literal way in Heat One! Others apparently played it this way all along.

There are actually a few other examples of such abilities, Tretch's definitely works in the enemy charge phase (not a shadow of a doubt); and it wouldn't be out of character for Kemmler to teleport 2 D6 in the enemy hero phase (Cloak of Mists and Shadows), e.g. to flee or to unbind some spells (he has an unbinding buff). The literal wording and purposive wording both line up, the only way out is to allege a typo based solely on balance fears (which aren't even justified).

The deeper reason that occurred to me after the ruling is that it actually makes the summoning options viable. This is because while dropping 2D6 Dryads next to Alarielle before you move is a pointless gamble, dropping 2 D6 Dryads after you've moved, charged and attacked in your turn in the enemy's subsequent hero phase makes a lot of sense both fluff wise and combat/balance wise - she is generating extra Dryads as she goes (filling up the crater that her antlers and impact hits leave. These Dryads can (sensibly) defend their queen by forming a wall against the ongoing attackers to slow them down. I discussed this with @scrubyandwells.

Balance wise it's a gamble (i.e. risk reward and trade offs, i.e. good) as you can either go for the safe option of the heal, but instead on a 4+ you can pop out a handful of Dryads (or 10 of them) using 120 reinforcement points to intercept an enemy charge. This extra option by itself gives Sylvaneth another dimension (a little defensive reinforcement pool - almost analogous to Fanatics) and justifies her points costs. In contrast to Gordrakk/Cabbage, who is simply overcosted at the moment.  This extra dimension by itself means that I'm buying the model - I was already tempted after figuring out the Dreadwood plus Alarielle combo and then it being pointed out that Dreadwood can work (sub-optimally) outside of the Sylvaneth allegiance..

People will complain that it makes her overpowered, to which one notable answer is 2 Snowballs on the Durthu one turn and 2 more on Alarielle the next turn and your most of the way to winning the game. Once people watch the Livestreams and see how to play against her and how not to (stop using MSU melee units, retreat out of combat if she is just dumping wounds onto Alarielle, chaff her up).

I managed to shoot her off in one double turn (easily) with Fyreslayers even after I failed a charge with a 400 point unit of 25 dudes. It would have been the same with Durthu next to her (had I in fact made the charge on him and shot him off first), then double turned.

[scrubyandwells]

Hi, I checked and Alarielle's Soul Amphorae is definitely only your hero phase. Multiple warscrolls seem to use "the" instead of "your," e.g., see attached example. At the same time, this does create inconsistencies, so I'm hoping to get more clarity, but nevertheless, Soul Amphorae is only your hero phase.

Also, from the AoS Rules under "Hero Phase":

In addition, other units in your army may have abilities on their warscrolls that can be used in the hero phase. Generally, these can only be used in your own hero phase. However, if an ability says it can be used in every hero phase, then it can be used in your opponent’s hero phase as well as your own. 

In general, I think we need to be careful about confirmation bias. I've certainly been guilty of it before. 

[Nico]

Good spot!

Well hopefully they FAQ her that they did mean every Hero Phase in that case (I gather that the TO at least ruled it that it did work, which prompted the whole discussion). I think you can look at the context of the rule for Tretch's rule, which is plainly every charge phase and isn't subject to that rule you cited as that general rule concerns the hero phase only.

Yeah - let's not let the Husktusks get any more excitable! Double snowballs would be crazy - even if it's winter after all in the UK....

[Siegfried VII]

On 20/1/2017 at 2:33 PM, Nico said:

 

On train to Warhammer World and Heat One now. So excited/sleep deprived.

 

How did it go with the tourney mate? I watched the live stream of Rob and Eddie but I would love to hear some insight on the whole event and the general feeling...

I was thinking on going to one of the heats myself but as I live in Greece I would like to see if the trip is worth it.

[Nico]

In brief, I had a great time.

The atmosphere was buzzing and there were a lot of new faces and a good number of international visitors. Met some good new people all round! Other than the Friday, the Saturday night and after my final game, I didn't get to chat as much as I'd hoped - real life kept intervening (or was it Kairos reaching out from the new shiny Battletome I swiftly acquired first thing on the Saturday morning).

Sylvaneth have definitely taken root, with many more armies. Painting standard is amazing and Sylvaneth were well represented on that front. 

Reportedly only one Nagash made the trip- feeling lost and confused. Tomb Kings did ok, but not so unbeatable after all. Didn't see as much Kunning Rukk, but plenty of Husktusks and Stonelords including a suspiciously familiar army in the hands of Craig Namvar.

There wasn't a quiz this time (so I wasn't able to repeat the feat of losing the dice off after being tied on points and - was it two? - other tie breakers). Food was good.

Friday started really well - catching up with various epic people. I watched some games and then deployed my "back-up" army - namely the Fyreslayers alpha strike list, against @Jimbo's beautifully (and boldly) painted Alarielle and co (admittedly without at least one Spirit of Durthu to accompany her).

My actual list was Casinostrike - designed to emulate variously a "Cr*ps"/"Dice" table - "come out roll" on the Realmgate each battleround (we played before the initiative roll - it could just as easily be afterwards); and various mini-games (guess the Starseer's dice under the Fez) was built on the restriction that it needed to have a lot of Fyreslayers in it and lots of random features that could go wrong, but would pay off in a big way if the reels all locked into place. Overall - it was (I believe) very fun to play for all opponents and for me. The drama level almost rivalled that of Gordrakk. As I said to various opponents, the house doesn't always win (and nor does the Lodge) - there were some distinct highs and lows.

I'll do battle reports in due course as normal under

Forums/Organised Play /Gaming Clubs/South London Legion

I'll link to them here.

Might lay out some practical tournament tips as well. In short, the Wardens of the Realmgate opens up a lot of options for Mixed Order and will give them a viable alternative to sticking to Allegiance (as they will presumably be continuing to do once the Battletome and the new allegiance pack slams down imminently).

If at all possible (and provided the venue caters for it), I would try to go to an event the day before, or do a Facehammer and be there the whole week before and meet up with international guests! I had to cancel holiday last week except for the Friday at the last minute, so that cut into practice games (I ultimately managed only 2 and the one with the different list against @Jimbo, rather than the planned 5-7 across all of January).

[Siegfried VII]

Sounds like you had lots of fun.

[Aezeal]

11 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

Hi, I checked and Alarielle's Soul Amphorae is definitely only your hero phase. Multiple warscrolls seem to use "the" instead of "your," e.g., see attached example. At the same time, this does create inconsistencies, so I'm hoping to get more clarity, but nevertheless, Soul Amphorae is only your hero phase.

Also, from the AoS Rules under "Hero Phase":

In addition, other units in your army may have abilities on their warscrolls that can be used in the hero phase. Generally, these can only be used in your own hero phase. However, if an ability says it can be used in every hero phase, then it can be used in your opponent’s hero phase as well as your own. 

In general, I think we need to be careful about confirmation bias. I've certainly been guilty of it before. 

 

Ok that is a clear rule. I think that makes it obvious the ruling Nico mentioned isn't correct. Herophase things are your phase only unless specifically mentioned. Thanks.

[Nico]

Quote

Ok that is a clear rule. I think that makes it obvious the ruling Nico mentioned isn't correct. Herophase things are your phase only unless specifically mentioned. Thanks.

At the moment, we would have to play it as it doesn't work for Alarielle and Kemmler (but Tretch is fine). We can hold out hope for a favourable FAQ ruling towards Sylvaneth on this one. She is about 40 points overcosted at the moment (i.e. better than the likes of Gordrakk and Nagash) and this would tip her back up to being a solid choice - as opposed to a high risk - high reward choice unit which kerbstomps someone who doesn't know what the Spirit of Durthu does - which gives her an inflated value in the perception of players).

[Aezeal]

I'm not convinced she's overcosted in the right list where her healing shines (multiple Kurnoth hunters, Durthu). But 40 points overcosted on this total of points isn't that bad either.. but I guess that is subjective.

[DantePQ]

Ok so I took Alarielle in matched game (Alarielle, Durthu with Oaken Armour and Gnarled Warrior, 2x10 Dryads, 10 Tree Revenants,3x3 Kurnoth Hunters- 2xbows, 1xscythes) against dwarfs (30 crossbowen with ambsuh, 2x10 warriors, hammerers, iron drakes, 2xorgan gun, lord with shieldbearer) 

We played scenario from page 30 of GH (but adjusted to matched play) it was a blast, Dwarfs pushed Alarielle to 5Wounds left thanks double turn and  Organ gun and crossbowen with ambush. But she healed almost all wounds lost. Dwarf player didn't have much tools to deal with her especially with Tree Reventants charging into organ guns.

Battle ended with Sylvaneth winning quite easily having lost only unit of Tree-Reventants, 1 kurnoth hunter and few dryads.

Some pics 

 

[Andy89]

Hi everyone

Does anybody know if the gt in Las Vegas in Feb requires that you have round bases for AoS? Looks i will be taking my Sylvaneth!

Andy

Sent from my LG-K210 using Tapatalk

[Ben_Harper]

Hi all,

 

New to the thread so i may be just repeating something here - apologies if thats the case.

 

The Household Battalion requires a Treelord to work. Are you able to use a Treelord Ancient/ Durthu to fill this space despite them not having the key words on their war scroll?

 

Thanks