Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Nico]

I said:

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It's a potential Pandora's Box. Now you need to check every single ability (on your target and on your Warscroll and any external buffs and debuffs) to see if they are phase-dependent or not.

Here's a good example of the Pandora's Box effect of the nerf to Free Spirits - the Verminlord Deceiver versus Kunning Rukk:

 

[scrubyandwells]

On 12/27/2016 at 10:53 AM, Primarch said:

So I've been toying around with a few lists and all focused around gnarlroot and this is what I have at the moment:

Treelord Ancient (300)
Spirit of Durthu (400)
Branchwych (100)
Loremaster (100)

Units
Dryads x 20 (240)
- Battleline
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Greatbows
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Scythes
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Scythes

Battalions
Household (20)
Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)

Total: 1980/2000

I like this list, good amount of heroes for 3 places of power, fair amount of punch with schythe hunters and Durthu and also a nice block of dryads and Tree-revs for objectives.

I don't know if I'm loosing out by not using the free spirit battalion, the extra 5inch move is tempting but if I figure I can just use the spirit path to get durthu and the hunters where I want. And to put in the Free Spirits would force me to drop 10 dryads and replace them with 10 more T-revs (if I've done my math right)

What do you guys think is the 5inch move worth it if I lose my most resilient objective holder?

Yeah that's a solid list. It's one of the lists I've been looking at for an upcoming article series on the sylvaneth. Tend to agree w/ Nico's recommendation to swap out x5 Tree-Revenants for x10 Dryads to bring you to 2,000.

[MidasKiss]

Yeah that's a solid list. It's one of the lists I've been looking at for an upcoming article series on the sylvaneth. Tend to agree w/ Nico's recommendation to swap out x5 Tree-Revenants for x10 Dryads to bring you to 2,000.

Yeah, I ran this list earlier in the year and it did well in my friendly game, though it's a bummer that we can't fit the free spirits in there

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[Primarch]

Thanks @Nico, @scrubyandwells and @MidasKiss. I see what you ate saying about the T-revs to Dryads i guess 10 wounds almost always trumps 5 in regards to objective holding. I don't have the models at the time though so I'll have to try with the 2x T-revs for now.

What do you guys think when it comes to artifacts? I'm thinking dual Briarsheets for TLA and Durthu and gnarled warrior for TLA as general.

Alternativly Ranus Lamenteri and gnarled warrior for TLA and Briarsheet for Durthu. TLA would then take one of the healing spells to be able to heal and buff Durthu/Hunters.

Also a final question; How should I use the Loremaster (aside from casting HoG) in the few games I've played with Sylvaneth 1000p I feel that the Lormaster can be left behind. Any tips?

[MidasKiss]

1 hour ago, Primarch said:

Thanks @Nico, @scrubyandwells and @MidasKiss. I see what you ate saying about the T-revs to Dryads i guess 10 wounds almost always trumps 5 in regards to objective holding. I don't have the models at the time though so I'll have to try with the 2x T-revs for now.

What do you guys think when it comes to artifacts? I'm thinking dual Briarsheets for TLA and Durthu and gnarled warrior for TLA as general.

Alternativly Ranus Lamenteri and gnarled warrior for TLA and Briarsheet for Durthu. TLA would then take one of the healing spells to be able to heal and buff Durthu/Hunters.

Also a final question; How should I use the Loremaster (aside from casting HoG) in the few games I've played with Sylvaneth 1000p I feel that the Lormaster can be left behind. Any tips?

The 5 tree revs vs 10 dryads is probably a matter of opinion, I expect Mirage to chime in his preference for that version  They do offer a level of threat with their mobility.

Items and traits depends on the match up, in my area we pick each game so I haven't had to decide which ones are best all around, but briarsheath might be my choice if I did. As @Forestreveries has pointed out, vs some armies like Ironjaws if they buff their hit rolls back up easily with something like warchanters it's probably more effective to go with Gnarled Warrior + Oaken armour for the mostly 2+ save rerolling ones.

I have run the Ranus on the Ancient before and it is very nice if you're not worried about getting stuck in any massive combats. When you have durthu i find the ancient gets ignored a little more than usual so it might work out.

For the Loremaster, I literally used him to cast HoG on Durthu every turn haha. You might find it useful to put him more middle/up front towards the later game so people might be tempted to ping him off rather than focus on durthu (to their detriment). He should go into cover pretty easily and make things a little more difficult. I would want to get at least a couple of turns out of him though, HoG on Durthus shooting is awesome for taking out early threats.

[Mirage8112]

6 hours ago, MidasKiss said:

The 5 tree revs vs 10 dryads is probably a matter of opinion, I expect Mirage to chime in his preference for that version  They do offer a level of threat with their mobility.

LoL. I seem to be developing somewhat of a reputation as contrarian. 

Actually I'd say it's 50/50 here. He's got 1 unit of Rev's, so that's better than nothing. I will say that Revenants work better in two groups of 5, rather than 1. Plus, math wise anything that can evaporate a unit of 5 tree revs probably won't have too much trouble with a unit of 10 dryads after battleshock, especially if they aren't in a forest (objective grabbers usually aren't). Running the numbers, it's nearly the same.

Personally I'd probably go with the rev's and the chance of a role on the triumph table for having a point value below my opponent. But I'd say the alternate is probably just as good. 

Personal preference here.

[MidasKiss]

LoL. I seem to be developing somewhat of a reputation as contrarian. 

Actually I'd say it's 50/50 here. He's got 1 unit of Rev's, so that's better than nothing. I will say that Revenants work better in two groups of 5, rather than 1. Plus, math wise anything that can evaporate a unit of 5 tree revs probably won't have too much trouble with a unit of 10 dryads after battleshock, especially if they aren't in a forest (objective grabbers usually aren't). Running the numbers, it's nearly the same.

Personally I'd probably go with the rev's and the chance of a role on the triumph table for having a point value below my opponent. But I'd say the alternate is probably just as good. 

Personal preference here.

Haha I wasn't wrong. I don't disagree here. I would try 2 x 5 but I'm not buying more

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[Nico]

Did I mention already that the FAQ actually names the Treelord's Spirit Paths ability as an example of a set-up rule? As you'll appreciate, Spirit Paths is a simplified version of Navigate Realmroots, so this also points towards the latter being a set up rule (as distinct from a move).

[Nico]

 

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Thanks @Nico, @scrubyandwells and @MidasKiss. I see what you ate saying about the T-revs to Dryads i guess 10 wounds almost always trumps 5 in regards to objective holding. I don't have the models at the time though so I'll have to try with the 2x T-revs for now.

What do you guys think when it comes to artifacts? I'm thinking dual Briarsheets for TLA and Durthu and gnarled warrior for TLA as general.

Alternativly Ranus Lamenteri and gnarled warrior for TLA and Briarsheet for Durthu. TLA would then take one of the healing spells to be able to heal and buff Durthu/Hunters.

 

You're very welcome.

It's not a big point either way. Some match ups/Battleplans you'll prefer one to the other. 10 Dryads are suboptimal anyway (since they don't have the +1 to save). It might also depend on your ability to remember Triumph rolls. I suggest you build markers for Triumphs which are 1 foot wide and lit up with neon.

I'd genuinely suggest running some searches on this website for the artefact names to find earlier discussion (particularly in this thread). The Search functionality is really good. As @MidasKiss and @Mirage8112 have said, artefact choice is match up dependent (and to a lesser extent battleplan dependent). If I only have one Ancient, then it's going to have a defensive artefact always, rather than a spell one. Don't overlook Seed of Rebirth as a soft counter to snow balls from Husktusks and other Tusks, much better than losing Durthu/Ancient after two 2+ rolls (although also the Vultures to worry about - insist on the actual rules here - he has to attack with all of his attacks from a given Husktusk before you allocate any damage (effectively all the attacks are simultaneous), so I suspect that some overkill wounds would be wasted which helps you - athough hmmm technically a Vulture isn't a shooting attack - ponder ponder).

 

 

[Primarch]

Thanks again guys, I'm aming to bring this army to a torunament in a couple of months hence all the questions. I don't know yet if I'll get to pick the artefacts before each game or if I can have duplicates. I know that they play that the same effect can't stack i.e no double bloodsecrator banner or -2 to hit for double treeman stomp so I'm guessing double artefacts won't be a thing. 

How ever I do look forward to bringing this army out to play I have everything painted and about half painted so playtesting (limited to SC, Slaves to Darkness and Aelfs) good news is that I do know that the tournament will permitt the use of home made woods with same footprint as citadel woods

[Nixon]

I actually thought that artifacts was one of a kind, so no duplicates. 

Its good to know that Realmroots can be used to disengage from combat without being a retreat. 

[Mirage8112]

Did I mention already that the FAQ actually names the Treelord's Spirit Paths ability as an example of a set-up rule? As you'll appreciate, Spirit Paths is a simplified version of Navigate Realmroots, so this also points towards the latter being a set up rule (as distinct from a move).

Lol. That doesn't change anything. I don't think anybody thinks it's not a set up rule.


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[Aezeal]

15 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

 

Lol. That doesn't change anything. I don't think anybody thinks it's not a set up rule.


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True it's sometimes the question what being a set up rule means, wether or not it does still or does not qualify the set up as a move or not.

[Mirage8112]

10 hours ago, Aezeal said:

True it's sometimes the question what being a set up rule means, wether or not it does still or does not qualify the set up as a move or not.

Yes. I think the question is more about how a set-up is supposed to interact with the rules for retreating. But I don't think there was ever a question if Navigate Realmroots or Spirt paths was a set-up. We've said from the very start that it activated gryphhounds and whatnot. It be nice if we could get that one aspect of it clarified. We already know it can't be used in other phases. But there's still question if there are any restrictions placed upon it by being in combat at the start of the movement phase. 

 

[Aezeal]

So just for an army list question: for a 1500 point tourney.

Gnarlroot Wargrove (something like Wych (2x), TLA, 3 hunters, 20 dryads, 10 Dryads., 5 revenants)

Or

Allariele, Durthu and 20 dryads x 2 and 3 hunters. (no formation). And whatever more I can put into that.

[Nico]

I prefer the bodies. The second list is much more rock paper scissors. If you look across the table and see 2 Husktusks and some Moonclan, let alone Kunning Rukk Arrer Boyz, then you've lost the game already. Frankly Stormcast are going to give you a hard time as well, provided that they don't mess up their target selection.

[Paul G]

Anyone see the Masters lists? Up on the Bad Dice Site - Ben Johnson's Sylvaneth have 2 x 10 Tree Revenants! So cool to see that.

[Aezeal]

2 hours ago, Nico said:

I prefer the bodies. The second list is much more rock paper scissors. If you look across the table and see 2 Husktusks and some Moonclan, let alone Kunning Rukk Arrer Boyz, then you've lost the game already. Frankly Stormcast are going to give you a hard time as well, provided that they don't mess up their target selection.

Yeah the first list does have more flexibility.. but the 2nd list just has such an insane damage output and still quite a lot of healing potential. It's a pretty soft tournament, the local community is fairly smallish. 

I'm pretty certain that if someone goes kunnin ruk and gets first turn or goes 3 x behemoth in beastclaw I'd be dead anyway. But if I get first turn against ruk I think Alarielle might whipe out a unit of archers of the Ruk and I think she'd be good against stormcasts too having quite some strong rend attacks.

I'll try another game with the gnarlroot but tbh I find the effect of the wargrove somewhat limited. Not often doing much damage with the wyldwoods, not doing much extra damage with spells and even healing isn't happening that often. I think Alarielles automatic healing combined with Durthu taking wounds might get more out of healing.

[ProvokedTree]

3 hours ago, Paul G said:

Anyone see the Masters lists? Up on the Bad Dice Site - Ben Johnson's Sylvaneth have 2 x 10 Tree Revenants! So cool to see that.

I am tempted to do something like that with the Ironbark Wargrove so they can do as much as possible. Another fun thing is that lets me give the Ironbark Talisman to the Spirit of Durthu so he is wounding on 2s with his sword now.

[Nico]

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but the 2nd list just has such an insane damage output and still quite a lot of healing potential.

The catch is that it's not an insane damage output. No monster (not even a Stonelord or Gordrakk) comes close to the damage output of a Deathstar backed up by a stack of buffs (e.g. Necropolis Knights - which can be run as a 12 if you really need to); Clanrats or Stormvermin with a pile of buffs plus Sayl to lob them forward, Bloodletter bomb plus damned terrain; and pounding them all by a landslide Kunning Rukk 40 Arrers with Damned Terrain, or 20 Irondrakes next to a Hurricanum with 2 stacks of Runelord goodness shooting at a target near your Azyros for -3 rend pew pew) etc.. 

The fact that Sylvaneth happen to have some soft counters to some of these combos (and none of these counters are likely to be available if you go for Alarielle and SoD) doesn't change the fact that big monsters don't do as much damage as buffed blocks do.  

Then you can think about the reliability of the Deathstars created by rolling huge volumes of dice instead of a handful of critical hit, wound and D6 damage rolls.

The Alarielle list relies a great deal on bad target selection by your opponent, either because he's a melee oriented army and cannot help it or due to skillful play by the Sylvaneth player. If the opponent ignores the monsters, hits the retreat button and runs onto objective; and crushes the undersized blocks in your army that you need to score with, then you will be in big trouble.

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I am tempted to do something like that with the Ironbark Wargrove so they can do as much as possible. Another fun thing is that lets me give the Ironbark Talisman to the Spirit of Durthu so he is wounding on 2s with his sword now.

 Like this

I suggest you don't - you'll regret it as it means you have to waste 260 points on an artefact-lacking Treelord. 

The defensive artefacts for the TLA/SoD are so good that I've seen little reason to move away from them. One possible exception would be the teleport artefact on the Ancient if you're up to skullduggery (since he is a Wizard unlike the SoD).

 

[Nico]

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But if I get first turn against ruk I think Alarielle might whipe out a unit of archers of the Ruk

Good luck with that. They have 80 wounds in that unit. If you do get into melee, I believe they flip up to being Bravery 7 (like Paladins). They will be sitting behind at least 60 wounds of other bodies.

[Aezeal]

7 hours ago, Nico said:

Good luck with that. They have 80 wounds in that unit. If you do get into melee, I believe they flip up to being Bravery 7 (like Paladins). They will be sitting behind at least 60 wounds of other bodies.

 

I know you are probably right I was thinking about doing like 20 wounds.. but that isn't average at all. Her spell can help a lot but will not be in range.

I guess taking out the support character might be possible though with her spear and the hunters which would limit their damage output... or of it's hidden well it might be possible to melee him to death with alarielle (and hope she'll survive (with mystic shield) a turn against 40 unbuffed archers and be able to heal back up).

Thing is.. I don't really thing going Gnarlroot will help me much against the kunnin ruk (or most of the other stuff you mentioned), against kunnin rukk Drycha might be a better option I guess. 

[Mirage8112]

2 hours ago, Aezeal said:

I don't really thing going Gnarlroot will help me much against the kunnin ruk (or most of the other stuff you mentioned), against kunnin rukk Drycha might be a better option I guess. 

I agree with you. Are you allowed a sideboard? A match-up like that screams Dreadwood. 

[Aezeal]

4 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

I agree with you. Are you allowed a sideboard? A match-up like that screams Dreadwood. 

Well no, but honestly our scene is small and the players I know play tombkings (Settra annoying though), empire (only old models, no hurricanum), Chaos and High Elves. Not sure if I could expect a lot from out of town with the killer list though. To be honest against the armies I've played last months I don't expect any problems with either lists but the reason I was thinking about Alarielle is that those lists just can't kill her (except if I make stupid charges and they can put their whole armies against me, if I let Alarielle engage from a side I should be able to just roll up most of those armies). The tombkings are the only list I've seen that has some killing power.

 

But Nico is right that Gnarlroot is more flexible. I might try and fit a TLA and a SoD in there though (or Drycha) it's not that I really want all monsters on the table.. but I like having 2 of them and that isn't that easy if you also need baseline and want hunters. In my regular games we've been doing 3 baseline in 1500 points which makes 2 Behemoths and 3 hunters (all I have.. if I get more I'll want more in there giving me more problems).

[Aezeal]

1500 isn't easy for Sylvaneth lists..

I'm on

1. Alarielle, Durthu, 3 hunters (bows), 20 dryads, 10 dryads 5 revenants

2. TLA, Durthu, Wych, 3 hunters (bows),  2x 10 dryads, 5 revenants (+ Household + Gnarlwood)

Or back to my original list

3. TLA, Wych, Wych,  Drycha, 3 hunters (bows), 2 x 10 dryads, 5 revenants, 3 treekin

 

List 1 has a unit of 20 dryads which is nice and 

List 2 has Durthu, which is nice but sadly no unit of 20 dryads. Gnarlwood gives me the healing spell and extra 2 spells per turn (on the TLA and the wych which would end up being mystic shield, arcane bolt  most turns and likely verdurous/regrowth and reaping if I give the Wych a circlet. I'm not sure the 100 points for Gnarlwood are worth it for the 2 spells per turn.

List 3 gives more bang for buck on the Gnarlwood, I can get an acorn on 1 wych and try and summon forests , a circlet on the other I get more spells for my Gnarlwood points but risk having no real targets for some of those spells in several turns. Now no real heavy hitter in there and still no unit of 20 dryads.

 

When I remove Gnarlwood from list 2 and I remove the wych too then I can put Drycha in there or more dryads 

4. TLA, SoD, Drycha, 2 x 10 dryads, 5 revenants, 3 Hunters

5. TLA, SoD, 2 x 20 dryads, 5 revenants, 3 hunters

I think both options are probably better than 2.

And if I buy the models I COULD go

6. TLA, SoD, 20 dryads, 2x 5 revenants and 2 x 3 Hunters

But I'm not sure about 2 x 5 revenants, their use is limited and I'm not sure I'd need 2 units for those specialised tasks (and against some armies they'll be just expensive roadblocks)

 

Man 2K is so much easier (I think allarielle , Durthu, 9 hunters + free spritis would be nice and a Gnarlwood could get  2 TLA, 40 dryads and either 9 hunters or 6 and Drycha)