Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Aezeal]

21 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

It's tricky indeed. thankfully it's an across the board change, so it's not just us. 

 

I think we've covered this topic pretty extensively. I'm just mentioning that I've changed my position on the matter. 

My original position was that you could use Navigate the realmroots to get out of combat, but it counts as retreating. After looking at the FAQ I'm more inclined to think you cannot use it to get out of combat, because the only way you can get out of combat is to retreat and it seems the only way to retreat is to move. I know your logic that it's a set-up and not a move, but if moving is the only way to get out of combat then you can't use a "set-up". 

Their ruling that "as the movement phase" essentially means "the phase is the phase", and retreating is definitely phase dependent. So forest folk and stormcast teleports which happen in the hero phase are definitely not retreats, since retreats are explicitly a requirement of the movement phase. 

I'll add that I'm not 100% sure on this. Maybe 55/45 between our two interpretations. You can either use it to get away and still shoot, or you can't use it; its unclear.

 

That is another view on it... can't really say your logic is flawed.. but I'd say redeploying units could be considered as a move so is possible but then counts as a retreat.

[Mirage8112]

2 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

That is another view on it... can't really say your logic is flawed.. but I'd say redeploying units could be considered as a move so is possible but then counts as a retreat.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to agree with you. But the FAq really seems to say when they say "move" they mean "regular move". That seems pretty clear at least.  

[Aezeal]

8 hours ago, Nico said:

Depends on what the context is. Against Fanatics deploying adjacent is a hard counter; and against Skulkers it's a soft counter. Sometimes you want to deploy adjacent to score and sometimes, you need to deploy a hero 3" away on an objective and then charge in order to score on Three Places of Power (setting up on the objective doesn't let your hero tag the objective).

Maybe if you play very agessively you could kill enemy heros before they score much points and then score a few points with her while the rest of the army kills their army. She'd probably be able to fight too since here base is huge :D. Ofcourse.. she'd probably be dead if she moves that agressively.

[Aezeal]

1 minute ago, Mirage8112 said:

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to agree with you. But the FAq really seems to say when they say "move" they mean "regular move". That seems pretty clear at least.  

I don't see your point. Our ability is a seperate rule and has not limitations registered. It seems obvious to me you can use that ability to teleport anywhere. The wording of the retreat rule then implies that is COULD be counted as a retreat. Don't see where the word move comes into this.

[Mirage8112]

1 minute ago, Aezeal said:

I don't see your point. Our ability is a seperate rule and has not limitations registered. It seems obvious to me you can use that ability to teleport anywhere. The wording of the retreat rule then implies that is COULD be counted as a retreat. Don't see where the word move comes into this.

No I get that. 

My original thinking was that that you could use it but it counted as a retreat. Now I'm not so sure. Based on some of the wording it seems to be that the only way you can retreat is to move.

For example, it says "The distance a model can move and the restrictions that apply to the move vary depending on the type of move being made, it cannot finish the move within 3" of an enemy model. Units can run or retreat when they make a normal move. The fact that a unit in combat at the beginning of the movement phase can either stay stationary or retreat."

When i read the above with the rampaging destroyers rule:

Q: Can the ‘Rampaging Destroyers’ ability be used to retreat?

A: Yes, this move is made ‘as if it were the movement phase’, so as long as you roll high enough you can use this move to retreat.

I seems to me that your allowed to use it to retreat because it is "a normal move" Because it's made "as if it were the movement phase." That to me implies that if it weren't a normal move, you wouldn't be able to use it to retreat. Nico has very clearly (and doggedly) delineated that Navigating the realmroots is not a move; it's a set-up.

As I said above I'm not 100% on this. I could see it going either way. I only lean no because I don't see then saying "it's ok to get out of combat in the same turn and shoot". That seems like interpreting the rules for an advantage, 

As to the other situation that use a set-up to "move" they happen in the hero phase; not "as the movement phase". So based on their "the phase is the phase" rulings and that retreat happens only in the movement phase, there's no conflict. 

[Aezeal]

2 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

No I get that. 

My original thinking was that that you could use it but it counted as a retreat. Now I'm not so sure. Based on some of the wording it seems to be that the only way you can retreat is to move.

For example, it says "The distance a model can move and the restrictions that apply to the move vary depending on the type of move being made, it cannot finish the move within 3" of an enemy model. Units can run or retreat when they make a normal move. The fact that a unit in combat at the beginning of the movement phase can either stay stationary or retreat."

When i read the above with the rampaging destroyers rule:

Q: Can the ‘Rampaging Destroyers’ ability be used to retreat?

A: Yes, this move is made ‘as if it were the movement phase’, so as long as you roll high enough you can use this move to retreat.

I seems to me that your allowed to use it to retreat because it is "a normal move" Because it's made "as if it were the movement phase." That to me implies that if it weren't a normal move, you wouldn't be able to use it to retreat. Nico has very clearly (and doggedly) delineated that Navigating the realmroots is not a move; it's a set-up.

As I said above I'm not 100% on this. I could see it going either way. I only lean no because I don't see then saying "it's ok to get out of combat in the same turn and shoot". That seems like interpreting the rules for an advantage, 

As to the other situation that use a set-up to "move" they happen in the hero phase; not "as the movement phase". So based on their "the phase is the phase" rulings and that retreat happens only in the movement phase, there's no conflict. 

Another interpretation: You are allowed to use it as a retreat because a retreat can be used in the movement phase. Using our ability in the movement phase covers that. Then it says you need to make sure you end up more than 3"away.. which would be the general idea and is very well possible with this ability. 

 

[Mirage8112]

15 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

You are allowed to use it as a retreat because a retreat can be used in the movement phase. Using our ability in the movement phase covers that. Then it says you need to make sure you end up more than 3"away.. which would be the general idea and is very well possible with this ability. 

My point is that it looks like you can only use a "regular move" to retreat. The last round of FAQ made it pretty clear that just because you can move in one circumstance, doesn't mean you can use the Realmroots. As I said before, realmroots are clearly not a move. So IF the only way you can get out of combat is to move, AND realmroots is not a move, then you can't use it to get out of combat. 

Like I said, not 100% on this. I could see it going either way, but I'm more inclined to lean no. You're welcome to use it, because it's really not clear which way is up. 

[Aezeal]

Well basicly I'd say that since the rule doesn't disallow it it's allowed. lots of special rules have inbuild limitations and this one doesn't have a limitation in that regard. After that the retreat rule kicks in I'd say. Anyway I just hope they FAQ it too since it's just not clear.

[Mirage8112]

Generally rulesets are permissive, they tell you what you "can" do, rather than what you can't. A popular example is that the rules don't say you "can't" punch your opponent". 

But that's silly. 

So I'm not clear on your interpretation, are you saying they can use the realmroots but it doesn't count as a retreat? Or that they can but it does count as a retreat? 

[Nico]

Quote

A: Yes, this move is made ‘as if it were the movement phase’, so as long as you roll high enough you can use this move to retreat.
 

Note how this answer starts and ends with "move" - so it's irrelevant to a set-up rule. It's not an accident that Rampaging Destroyers is a move and not a set-up rule since it would allow a Stonelord to back it up and go in for another charge and D6 mortal wounds every turn.

The other argument besides retreats are moves and set-ups aren't moves, so set-ups aren't retreats; is that each set-up rule is a self-contained code for how it works that adds on an additional option to what you can normally do in the core rules; and the core rules don't specify everything you can do, many abilities on Warscrolls add something completely new to the game which doesn't have to be shoehorned into the existing rules. Thus the Navigate Realmroots adds on the ability to do something else in the movement phase (in fact specifically at the start of the movement phase) in addition to the normal options of (a) stand still or (b) retreat. Navigate Realmroots doesn't necessarily have to fit into (a) or (b), it adds a new option (c), just as Kairos's Oracle of Eternity rule doesn't fit into the rules on rerolls (since it's a change the dice rule) - it adds something completely new.

Quote

I only lean no because I don't see then saying "it's ok to get out of combat in the same turn and shoot". That seems like interpreting the rules for an advantage, 
 

Sylvaneth are the hit and run army. They've taken away the undercosted alpha strike ability of Forest Spirits, so I see absolutely nothing wrong with using Navigate Realmroots to extricate Hunters from combat and then pew pew another target - this is exactly what they would be doing.

[Aezeal]

1 hour ago, Mirage8112 said:

Generally rulesets are permissive, they tell you what you "can" do, rather than what you can't. A popular example is that the rules don't say you "can't" punch your opponent". 

But that's silly. 

So I'm not clear on your interpretation, are you saying they can use the realmroots but it doesn't count as a retreat? Or that they can but it does count as a retreat? 

Actually I say nothing says you can't retreat and getting al the other rules involved when not needed should be avoided so it's allowed. It's clear this move or set up is not mentioned in the base rules so I'd say it offers a completely new option aside from the existing options in the movement phase.

After that is basicly a close call about if this action still activates the existing rule about retreats but I'd take the cautious side and call it a retreat since that rule DOES cover leaving combat, and the realmroots don't say it's not activated.

But I just want a FAQ since what is intended isn't clear apart from the difficulty to devine the RAW.

[Mirage8112]

46 minutes ago, Nico said:

Words and stuff

Yeah we've been over this. I still think thats dodgy logic. Even more so since the last FAQ

 

46 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

Actually I say nothing says you can't retreat and getting al the other rules involved when not needed should be avoided so it's allowed. It's clear this move or set up is not mentioned in the base rules so I'd say it offers a completely new option aside from the existing options in the movement phase.

After that is basicly a close call about if this action still activates the existing rule about retreats but I'd take the cautious side and call it a retreat since that rule DOES cover leaving combat, and the realmroots don't say it's not activated.

But I just want a FAQ since what is intended isn't clear apart from the difficulty to devine the RAW.

I'd agree with that if you wanted to play it that way. Truthfully I'm fine playing it either of those ways provided it's established before the match. It not being a retreat though still seems gamey to me. 

Hopefully the next FAQ isn't too long out. They're being pretty good about it though. 

[Mirage8112]

So with the new FAQ basically gutting my original Alpha-strike army build, I decided to sit down and relook at some of the numbers to see what could be done for those of us that might want to build an alpha strike army. I was never really a fan of Freespirits as an option for alpha strike. I think there might still be a place for freespirits somewhere in competitive play, but I'll be damned if I know here it is. It's main drawback is that it's expensive, (nearly 1000pts bare bones) and its cost doesn't include any battleline units. So to make it legal for competitive play you're looking at nearly 1300 pts if you go with all tree-revenants. Not a promising start. 

So that brings me back to Dreadwood. I had built the list previously around Drycha, a TL and 1 unit of scythe hunters. Between those three units and the (now illegal) movement shenanigans, the list was capable of putting 30 wounds (before saves) into the enemy's front lines on the first turn. The list had a lot of rend, (mostly -1, but a few -2) so hitting a unit with a save of around 4+ that meant about 24 unsaved wounds. This of course assumed that Drycha was enraged, and if she was mopey, that drops to ~22. So 23 wounds on average is what I'm looking to replace. 

Here's what I've come up with:

Leaders
Spirit of Durthu (400)
- General
- Trait: Realm Walker 
Branchwych (100)
- Artefact: Acorn of the Ages 
Treelord Ancient (300)
- Artefact: Briarsheath 

Units
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
Kurnoth Hunters x 6 (360)
- Scythes

Battalions
Dreadwood Wargrove (100)
Outcasts (40)

Total: 2000/2000

Dreadwood allows a roll for 3 stratagems, but you only really need ambush. If you get a second, you'll want sneak attack . The plan will be for a single drop. The wytch, 3x Tree-Revenants, Durthu and hunters on the table, everything else in the realms. Your freewood goes in a clump in the center left. Assuming you get 2/3, you put an extra move on the wytch, Durthu and the hunters.

First hunters re-deploy within 6" of the alpa-strike target. They can then use their free move to get within 3". Then, using your free move granted by sneak attack,  The wytch will move up and drop the acorn wood near the right center. ( sneak attack gives her a little more range for her wood drop, so she can get closer to an objective or the alpha strike target). Durthu then uses his free move to get within 3" so he can use the realmroots at the start of the movement phase. He also uses inspiring presence on the hunters. 

At the start of the movement phase, Durthu walks the roots to within 9" of his target and rolls on the table. Realm walker gives him +2 on his roll, so on a roll of 4+ he can move again putting him within 5" of the enemy. Then you can bring the rest of the outcasts and the ancient out of the realms. 

Then during the charge phase both units charge obviously.

On average the hunters unit by itself will put out ~18 wounds. (15 at -2 rend, 3 mortal assuming all are in range for trample. That probably won't happen, but you might get close.) Durthu can pretty easily put out 15-16 by himself if you get the Wytch's forest within 3" of the enemy on the drop (very possible). Altogether that's ~32 wounds all at -2 rend. Granted it's a 4+ roll to avoid the long charge with Durthu, but even if it's only the Hunters that get into combat on the first turn, 15 wounds is enough to kill most monsters, and certainly kill 1-2 units with battleshock.  

It's not without it's finesse. You'll have to position Durthu in a way that avoids him taking too much damage before he attacks. if you drop the ancient on the board, vs in the realms, you'll have the opportunity to shield him, giving him a 2+ save, and if the hunters put out plenty of wounds on a monster, it shouldn't be able to do too much damage before Durthu unloads. If it's a unit you're after, you should be able to prevent too many models being able to pile in with careful positioning of the hunters (key in my last game). 

All in all, it will play different and it's not as elegant as my last idea, but ~32 wounds at -2 is actually a better damage output than the last version. I suggest putting regrowth for the extra spell on the ancient in case they manage to get a double turn, because in the first combat round it's unlikely they'll be able to do much back. In your opponents phase they might be able to pull a few wounds off, but they won't be able to bring anything from the edges of there deployment until the second turn. The hunters are battleshock proofed, so they won't go anywhere and they should be able to limit access to Durthu long enough for you to heal him with the ancient at the start of your second turn. 

If he doesn't get the double turn, it's pretty much game over for at that point baring a major mistake at that point. This army is 92 wounds. That means it puts out 1/3 of it's own wounds before the game even starts. That's hard to come back from. 



 

[Knight of Ruin]

As i understand the realmroots issue now, we have a few camps?

Camp A

Can not use realmroots if we are within 3" of an enemy model

Camp B

Can use the realmroots in order to retreat, and can still shoot if doing so.

 

Camp C

Can use the realmroots in the hero phase and movement phase, even to retreat (but doing so incurs the retreat penalty for the remainder of that player turn)

Camp D

I dont know if i missed one? 

 

Are any of the above correct?

[Nico]

Navigate Realmroots definitely works in the Start of the Movement Phase (never in the Hero Phase cf. Forest Folk!).

You mean this:

Camp A

Cannot use Navigate Realmroots if we are within 3" of an enemy model.

Camp B (my camp)

Navigate Realmroots is a set-up rule. Set-ups and moves are distinct in the rules/FAQs. Set-ups cannot be moves and vice versa. Retreats are a subset of moves. Navigate Realmroots is not a move and so cannot be a retreat.

Can use the Navigate Realmroots rule as a self contained code irrespective of the positioning of enemy models at the start of the movement phase (provided near the Wyldwood); and since it's not a retreat, you can still shoot (and charge) if doing so (subject to the table in the self-contained code).

Camp C

Navigate Realmroots is a set-up rule. Set-ups and moves are distinct in the rules/FAQs. Set-ups cannot be moves and vice versa. Navigate Realmroots is not a move.

However, (unlike Knight Vexillor, Changehost of Tzeentch etc.), Navigate Realmroots happens in the Start of the Movement Phase (rather than the Hero Phase), which is a sub-phase of the Movement Phase, hence Navigate Realmroots is a retreat if within 3" of enemy unit.

Can use the Realmroots rule as a self contained code irrespective of the positioning of enemy models at the start of the movement phase (provided near the Wyldwood); however, if within 3" of enemy unit, it is a retreat, you cannot shoot or charge if doing so (however you can still do another regular move if you roll well on the table in the self-contained code). 

Camp D

Realmroots is a set-up rule; and a move; and hence a retreat.

Can use the Realmroots rule as a self contained code irrespective of the positioning of enemy models at the start of the movement phase (provided near the Wyldwood; however, if within 3" of enemy unit, it is a retreat, you cannot shoot or charge if doing so (however you can still do another regular move if you roll well on the table in the self-contained code). 

[Nico]

11 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

So with the new FAQ basically gutting my original Alpha-strike army build, I decided to sit down and relook at some of the numbers to see what could be done for those of us that might want to build an alpha strike army. I was never really a fan of Freespirits as an option for alpha strike. I think there might still be a place for freespirits somewhere in competitive play, but I'll be damned if I know here it is. It's main drawback is that it's expensive, (nearly 1000pts bare bones) and its cost doesn't include any battleline units. So to make it legal for competitive play you're looking at nearly 1300 pts if you go with all tree-revenants. Not a promising start. 
 

Prior to the FAQ update aimed squarely at Free Spirits (it even names Free Spirits in the Answer), you would get 2 Subterfuge abilities on average. It was possible to Ambush (always pick that one) and then if you rolled average or more, you could also use Sneak Attack on 3 units.

Now, comped into the ground as collateral damage of the undercosted Free Spirits battalion, Sneak Attack is marginally useful at best.

The problem for those who aren't so familiar with @Mirage8112 (listen to him on Scruby & Wells podcast episodes 5 (and 3?)) is that Sneak Attack is almost useless on Sylvaneth units that have to use their actual movement instead of using Navigate Realmroots. It basically nudges them forward 5 inches or so at the start of Battleround One (this wording is identical with the who decides who goes first in each Battleround wording, so it's not entirely clear whether you decide who goes first before (the person who finished deploying first) or after using Subterfuge (it rarely matters if the Sylvaneth player has the choice as normal with a single drop army).

Another option is to use Ambush on Drycha as normal (so put her 6" away before your first hero phase) - cast a spell, move her to 3" away from the enemy - YOLO with either Squirmlings or Flitterfuries. Meanwhile, if you go as many pew pew Hunters as possible, then and if you do get 2 abilities on the D3 for Subterfuge, then you go for Hidden Attackers (you might want to quote Nathan Prescott's most memorable phrase at this point in a Zimbabwe accent - Long live the Hooded Villain!). This limits the Husktusk to a perfectly manageable: 8 (D6+2) plus movement 8 plus 12 inch effective range, which is a pathetic 28 inches maximum effective range. This is a whopping 2 inches lower than the maximum range of the Kurnoth Pew Pew. You then proceed to set up or move all the Kurnoth Hunters into the 28-30 inch sage zone and put some chaff in front of them. They then roll abysmally and fail to kill the Husktuskwith one wound left. The opponent heals it for 9 wounds back - because BCR are THE healing army.

Cynicism and bad luck aside however, no matter how bad the dice, that Husktusk is not going to be able to snowball any of your models in their turn one*. You then might win the initiative roll and actually roll average on your pew pew to kill a Thundertusk.

Against less broken shooting, like Artillery crew and slow infantry with big ranges that cannot deepstrike or stay off the table, Hidden Attackers is great as you get one round of your pew pew at them and they cannot do anything in response. Sadly you cannot stick in a Hurricanum (unless you want them to shoot that, you could maybe? squeeze in Gnarlroot as well and see if it fits, then put Mystic Shield on the Hurricanum and put it in Cover (it's not a monster))

*There is at least one way, but I'm not going to advertise it here.

Quote

First hunters re-deploy within 6" of the alpa-strike target. They can then use their free move to get within 3". Then, using your free move granted by sneak attack,  

This is surely a waste of it. The Ambush happens before your turn one even starts. Thus you can move from 6" away to just over 3" away in the movement phase as normal. Maybe you don't have a better thing to move?

I guess if you could fit in Free Spirits, then you could have Durthu/Hunters moving 5 (Sneak Attack) at the start of the Battleround. Then another 5" in the Hero Phase (Free Spirits), then 5 in the Movement Phase for a total of 15. If the enemy is on the 12" line magnet, then that would be a charge of 9 which is makeable some of the time. To be fair that's identical to the Navigate Realmroots option (also a 9 charge), so it's pointless. I was hoping Hunters were movement 6 not movement 5....

Quote

Sneak Attack is almost useless on Sylvaneth units that have to use their actual movement instead of using Navigate Realmroots.

There is of course one exception (I'm sure you're well aware of this @Mirage8112). A certain special named character with movement 16. You could wander Alarielle forward 16 inches using Sneak Attack before your turn one. Then fire off the once per game Command Ability, then fire off Meta, Bolt and some other spell in the hero phase. Then move another 16" in the Movement Phase to wherever the dinner plate will fit. Then throw the Spear of Kurnoth. Then charge into a point with lots of scenery (screaming "a" means "any" not "one" in this context). Do some impact hits. Activate Alarielle first - smash face, possibly to the valuable stuff behind the chaff that you've just hit with Meta and all the pew pew in your army. Then prepare to be double turned back.

The less aggressive option would be to give Alarielle Throne of Vines (average of +2 to cast rolls). Not only does this buff Meta, it also buffs the mystic shield cast that she absolutely definitely needs to get off. If you fail that, then you really need to win the initiative roll or you are in huge trouble.

It's 540 for Dreadwood and 300 for minimum Battleline and 620 for Alarielle, so I make that 1420 points. I guess an Ancient for Regrowth at 300 takes you to 1720, then Hunters 180 then either 5 more Revenants or another hero for 3 places of power.

It's much better in a club game than it is for a 6 game tournament. 

Maths didn't quite hold up, so here's a better list with durable battleline.

Leaders
Alarielle the Everqueen (620)
- General
Treelord Ancient (300)
- Artefact: Briarsheath 

Units
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Bows
Dryads x 10 (120)
- Battleline
Dryads x 10 (120)
- Battleline
Dryads x 10 (120)
- Battleline

Battalions
Dreadwood Wargrove (100)
Outcasts (40)

Total: 2000/2000

 

[Nico]

Merry Christmas all (even the Clan Skryre Warpfire enthusiasts - we love you Mediocre Joe)!

Hopefully the baubles and tinsel are modelled onto all the Ancients. The Legend Steve Foote video surely? 

 

[Mirage8112]

7 hours ago, Nico said:

Another option is to use Ambush on Drycha as normal (so put her 6" away before your first hero phase) - cast a spell, move her to 3" away from the enemy - YOLO with either Squirmlings or Flitterfuries. Meanwhile, if you go as many pew pew Hunters as possible, then and if you do get 2 abilities on the D3 for Subterfuge, then you go for Hidden Attackers (you might want to quote Nathan Prescott's most memorable phrase at this point in a Zimbabwe accent - Long live the Hooded Villain!). This limits the Husktusk to a perfectly manageable: 8 (D6+2) plus movement 8 plus 12 inch effective range, which is a pathetic 28 inches maximum effective range. This is a whopping 2 inches lower than the maximum range of the Kurnoth Pew Pew. You then proceed to set up or move all the Kurnoth Hunters into the 28-30 inch sage zone and put some chaff in front of them. They then roll abysmally and fail to kill the Husktuskwith one wound left. The opponent heals it for 9 wounds back - because BCR are THE healing army.

I did look at Drycha to see how she would work in this army scenario, as she was in the original list and has a bit more synergy with the outcasts. 

The only problem with that is that she only really puts out 10-12 wounds at rend -1 (if enraged), and has 10 wounds. The advantage of using psych hunters is that 6 of them have nearly triple the wounds, and they can take a fair amount of damage without losing effectiveness.

The other advantage of taking the hunters is the footprint. The rest of the army is squishy, being that the battleline requirement is met by revenants rather than dryads. If the first round goes badly, (durthu fails his charge, or hunters fail to kill their target) that footprint can easily hold up a third of the opponents army while your own troops hold/defend objectives. If the same were to happen with Drycha and pew pew hunters, the enemy could basically just leave Drycha in combat with whatever unit she's with and use the rest of the army to sweep the board. 
 

7 hours ago, Nico said:

There is of course one exception (I'm sure you're well aware of this @Mirage8112). A certain special named character with movement 16. You could wander Alarielle forward 16 inches using Sneak Attack before your turn one. Then fire off the once per game Command Ability, then fire off Meta, Bolt and some other spell in the hero phase. Then move another 16" in the Movement Phase to wherever the dinner plate will fit. Then throw the Spear of Kurnoth. Then charge into a point with lots of scenery (screaming "a" means "any" not "one" in this context). Do some impact hits. Activate Alarielle first - smash face, possibly to the valuable stuff behind the chaff that you've just hit with Meta and all the pew pew in your army. Then prepare to be double turned back.

 
Ouch. I kinda like that. How about this? 

Leaders
Alarielle the Everqueen (620)

Units
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
Kurnoth Hunters x 9 (540)
- Scythes

Battalions
Dreadwood Wargrove (100)
Outcasts (40)

Total: 2000/2000

Using your strategy above but with 9 scythe hunters ambushing using Alarielle's command trait. That's 42 wounds (11 from Alarielle and 31 from the scythe hunters) in the first round of combat. Not counting the possibility of instadeath from the talon, magic, or impact hits. You could sacrifice some hunters and fiddle around with a sideboard in case you draw places of power. 

I don't think the loss of the ancient or dryads is a bad thing. In this list, you're really going for a knockout blow turn one rather than building an effective castle defense. After the first turn, having Allareille in your front line with 9 scythe hunters backing her up makes that a very tough rock to shift. And having Alarielle for healing also makes those hunters even more stubborn. I would probably activate Allarille first, since she gets weaker as she loses wounds, but having ~42 wounds to play around with (depending on how you distribute and engage) means you have a lot of flexibility to to take out any major threats before you choose what order you want to activate units for combat.

It's my guess that the opponent would spend a lot of time trying to dislodge Alarielle and the hunters rather than doing what he should be doing; going for objectives. But if he does manage to squeeze something through, you have revenants to bubble wrap the outcasts. The best they could do with their (now greatly limited) resources would be to take out the bubble wrap. And unless it's a death/demon player that outcast battalion rolling vs bravery hurts. 

  
 

[Nico]

I am struggling to believe that 9 Hunters fits. That does look better. I'm a bit of an Ancient addict since I hate wasting the Artefacts, but they do chomp up points. 

As a dual List army it looks tasty (very hard to win on 3 Places of Power though).

Maybe I'll have to buy Alarielle after all!

[Jorthax]

13 hours ago, Nico said:

Maybe I'll have to buy Alarielle after all!

I love the model, and she's just so survivable, I went against a skyborn slayers list the other day and even with as best bunkering as I could do (I'm new to it) she took a total of 32 wounds during the battle and ended with 6/16 dealt. I also love the thrones/meta combo it can do some real damage. The Treeman Ancient healed her twice for d6 and of course her self healing, she was on 1w left at one point so it was touch and go but that's how the dice go.

[Aggesut]

[Sidebar question]

Looked around but not really been able to find an answer or FAQ, and Google was not much help; I've seen people quote the Gnarlroot Wargrove 'Verdurous Harmony' as useful for healing d3 on eg. Kurnoth Hunters, but as far as I can see in the rule, it only brings back 1 model or d3 Dryads/Revenants, (I assume this would be subject to reinforcement costs as well?), so where does the healing I see people throw about come into it picture on Verdurous Harmony?

[Primarch]

So I've been toying around with a few lists and all focused around gnarlroot and this is what I have at the moment:

Treelord Ancient (300)
Spirit of Durthu (400)
Branchwych (100)
Loremaster (100)

Units
Dryads x 20 (240)
- Battleline
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Greatbows
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Scythes
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Scythes

Battalions
Household (20)
Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)

Total: 1980/2000

 

I like this list, good amount of heroes for 3 places of power, fair amount of punch with schythe hunters and Durthu and also a nice block of dryads and Tree-revs for objectives.

I don't know if I'm loosing out by not using the free spirit battalion, the extra 5inch move is tempting but if I figure I can just use the spirit path to get durthu and the hunters where I want. And to put in the Free Spirits would force me to drop 10 dryads and replace them with 10 more T-revs (if I've done my math right)

What do you guys think is the 5inch move worth it if I lose my most resilient objective holder?

[Knight of Ruin]

3 hours ago, Aggesut said:

[Sidebar question]

Looked around but not really been able to find an answer or FAQ, and Google was not much help; I've seen people quote the Gnarlroot Wargrove 'Verdurous Harmony' as useful for healing d3 on eg. Kurnoth Hunters, but as far as I can see in the rule, it only brings back 1 model or d3 Dryads/Revenants, (I assume this would be subject to reinforcement costs as well?), so where does the healing I see people throw about come into it picture on Verdurous Harmony?

I dont think it is subject to reinforcement points as you don't actually summon a new unit (which creates a new unit). This just refills the unit. 

and yes, the harmony returns 1 model or D3 Dryads/tree revenants.

[Nico]

Bringing back a Hunter each turn is nifty. 

That Gnarlroot plus Loremaster list looks pretty close to a "default Sylvaneth army" @Primarch. I wouldn't drop models for the Free Spirits now. I'd also use the 20 points to upgrade one unit of Tree Revenants to a unit of Dryads.

[Aggesut]

13 hours ago, Knight of Ruin said:

I dont think it is subject to reinforcement points as you don't actually summon a new unit (which creates a new unit). This just refills the unit.

Thanks for the answer! I'm not going to make it a discussion about rule-thumping and I don't want to be that guy, but we all know that's what the rule-thumpers do! To quote the Reinforcements rule (pg. 108) "... or replace a unit that has been destroyed" - so does that mean that the entire unit has to be removed before reinforcement points become a question, so eg. You can bring back a Kurnoth or a load of zombies for that matter (death summoning), without thinking about reinforcement points until the unit is actually destroyed? Wording makes a huge difference in this case

I'm sure there's a FAQ somewhere for it, so I'm not going to derail the thread