Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Sloth]

Hello everyone, as some one has recently accumulated the startings of a Sylvaneth collection over the holidays and experimenting with low point lists I was wondering how many wyld woods is it advised to have?

[vesco]

10 hours ago, Sloth said:

Hello everyone, as some one has recently accumulated the startings of a Sylvaneth collection over the holidays and experimenting with low point lists I was wondering how many wyld woods is it advised to have?

I use 3 for 1k points, planning on 6 for 2k

 

[Matt Large]

I think I saw only one or two Sylvaneth Players in the list for the weekends Heat 1. With only one in the top 40. Honestly thought we were more popular than that! Is this a fair reflection of where we are in the competative scene? 

[GeneralZero]

the problem  of competitiveness is that it is the result of 2 main factors:

1. strenght of the allegiance 

2. Number of players who want to  be (tourney) competitive and do what is needed to.

For the 1. , I think that sylvaneth is not taht bad, especially with the  Ally rule.

For the 2. the global tendency is not in favor of Sylvaneth. Not enough trees players  out there maybe....

 

[Azurious]

6 hours ago, GeneralZero said:

the problem  of competitiveness is that it is the result of 2 main factors:

1. strenght of the allegiance 

2. Number of players who want to  be (tourney) competitive and do what is needed to.

For the 1. , I think that sylvaneth is not taht bad, especially with the  Ally rule.

For the 2. the global tendency is not in favor of Sylvaneth. Not enough trees players  out there maybe....

 

The big problem with sylvaneth atm is tzeentch and KO.  Most competitive players will build lists to compete against their most likely opposition.  Both KO and Tzeentch are extremely popular and both hard counter sylvaneth.  As a result most players wont bring them.  If the meta shifts then sylvaneth still have one of the strongest allegience abilities in the game and could well come back

[GeneralZero]

I'm addressing to Sylvaneth pros: could you guys, please, make an input in this really useful topic Things for Players to Watch out for at Las Vegas Open here:

 

BTW, it is useful for ALL players, including you, my fellow sylvaneth 

[Richelieu]

On 1/15/2018 at 3:26 PM, Azurious said:

The big problem with sylvaneth atm is tzeentch and KO.  Most competitive players will build lists to compete against their most likely opposition.  Both KO and Tzeentch are extremely popular and both hard counter sylvaneth.  As a result most players wont bring them.  If the meta shifts then sylvaneth still have one of the strongest allegience abilities in the game and could well come back

I think you're using the term "hard counter" too liberally.

I rate the KO matchup as skill based.  Sylvaneth are more than likely going to go first except for a 50/50 chance in the most extreme one-drop clown car build (which forfeits punch in exchange for being a one-drop), which means that you can screen your vulnerable units with Dryads and take early board control. 

And even the Tzeentch matchup is probably only 66-33% in favor of the Tzeentch player, all else being equal. 

To me a hard counter is where if you are playing a player of equal skill, you have along the lines of 15% chance or less to win.

[Mirage8112]

40 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

I think you're using the term "hard counter" too liberally.

I rate the KO matchup as skill based.  Sylvaneth are more than likely going to go first except for a 50/50 chance in the most extreme one-drop clown car build (which forfeits punch in exchange for being a one-drop), which means that you can screen your vulnerable units with Dryads and take early board control. 

And even the Tzeentch matchup is probably only 66-33% in favor of the Tzeentch player, all else being equal. 

Keep in mind the percentage of success in any given match-up will also depend on the battleplan. Some battleplans are more difficult/easier for Sylvaneth than others. 

[Richelieu]

3 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Keep in mind the percentage of success in any given match-up will also depend on the battleplan. Some battleplans are more difficult/easier for Sylvaneth than others. 

Agree completely.  My post was in opposition to the notion of Tzeentch and Kharadron as hard counters to Sylvaneth rather than a deep analysis of those matchups in each battle plan.

[Azurious]

14 hours ago, Richelieu said:

I think you're using the term "hard counter" too liberally.

I rate the KO matchup as skill based.  Sylvaneth are more than likely going to go first except for a 50/50 chance in the most extreme one-drop clown car build (which forfeits punch in exchange for being a one-drop), which means that you can screen your vulnerable units with Dryads and take early board control. 

And even the Tzeentch matchup is probably only 66-33% in favor of the Tzeentch player, all else being equal. 

To me a hard counter is where if you are playing a player of equal skill, you have along the lines of 15% chance or less to win.

I refer to a hard counter when the innate tools a faction/list directly counters the tools you are bringing yourself.  In Sylvaneths case their strength lies in their ability to mitigate a lot of physical dmg output and through abilities and thereby maintaining control of the board.  Sylvaneth are not a high wound count force and as such rely heavily on these defensive abilities to negate incoming pressure.  Both KO and Tzeentch have the ability to completely ignore these defense mechanics on mass, due to the high volume of MW output from tzeentch and the sheer number or shots a high proportion of which are rend 2 and above, on top of which both enjoy high levels of mobility to ensure that zoning them off is exceptionally difficult.  Now this isnt to say these matchups are unwinable.  Scenarios, skill levels and luck of the dice always come into their own but in the RPS analogy I believe that both of the above are paper to Sylvaneths rock.

[Kage kriger]

Hallo I am new to the competitive scene of AOS but have tried to make some list here. I would really love to get some pros and cons to My build here? 

I'm posting a 2000 build here. What my plan here was to cast a lot of spells and and counter spell. My dryads would be buffed to hold the enemy away for as long as they can. Drycha and spite are teaming up to debuff enemy units and deal mortal wounds. tree revenants to take objectives. hunters to fight with dryads and maybe some where else. TLA and branchwych are to buff units and cast spells. Maybe go Moonstone of the hidden ways on TLA to go after important units. 

 

What do you guys think?

[Kage kriger]

I also have a 1000 point build im gonna try tomorrow I hope it will work well?. I'm gonna play 2vs2 with a wanderers army on my side 

[Mirage8112]

 

On 1/17/2018 at 5:21 AM, Azurious said:

I refer to a hard counter when the innate tools a faction/list directly counters the tools you are bringing yourself.  In Sylvaneths case their strength lies in their ability to mitigate a lot of physical dmg output and through abilities and thereby maintaining control of the board.  Sylvaneth are not a high wound count force and as such rely heavily on these defensive abilities to negate incoming pressure.  Both KO and Tzeentch have the ability to completely ignore these defense mechanics on mass, due to the high volume of MW output from tzeentch and the sheer number or shots a high proportion of which are rend 2 and above, on top of which both enjoy high levels of mobility to ensure that zoning them off is exceptionally difficult.  

Just thought I would make a slight comment on the above:

I don't see armies as having "hard counters". While your points above are well taken, I still disagree that KO and TZ are a hard counter as "an army". Certainly lists can see their hard counters across the table from them, but seeing a particular army across the table from you doesn't really mean anything until you see what units they're working with. Granted we make certain assumptions about what we'll see across the table from us when we sit down to write a list. The prevalence of of certain things in the meta always inform the choices we make between which units we take and in what combination. But even when writing the best "all-comers" list you can, you will invariably run up against a mechanic your list is weak to. 

And thank god right? Every list should have a counter. 

But, when you say:

On 1/17/2018 at 5:21 AM, Azurious said:

Sylvaneth are not a high wound count force and as such rely heavily on these defensive abilities to negate incoming pressure

 

That's not true at all. The winterleaf anti-demon list I posted a number of pages back on the thread has a model count of just over 150. We are fully capable of fielding a force that uses a high model count (and thus wound count) to rob gunlines of their ability to put their firepower anywhere useful. A block of 20 Dryads can easily eat 10 wounds and still fight on. And hell even if the enemy did 15-20 wounds (though magic/shooting/battleshock), with that many bodies you still have 4 full strength units of 30 to work with. These scary lists you're referencing revolve around their ability to take out lynchpin units (TLA in a Gnarlroot list, Durthu or a big block of hunters in a free spirits list) or shut down one very particular mechanic that the list requires to work (healing in Gnarlroot list for example). 

You could write a list that is a hard counter for anything in the game; full stop. Granted it might not work well against anything else, but all things being equal you have a fair shot against anything in a 1-on-1 match.  

[DantePQ]

You're right @Mirage8112 but recent tournament results mirror my experiences right know Sylvaneth doesn't have good matcheups against best armies at all (KO, DoT, Murderhost, Fyreslayers) so it's uphill battle everytime. 

Sure you can field anti-daemon list with lots of bodies but that kind of list will struggle against Murderhost and Fyreslayers. Of course there are many issues but main problem is how badly efficent is Gnarlroot now and the main reason is that Deepwood Spell Lore is so bad that after you set up some Woods there is no way to take full advantage of Gnarlroot bonuses. 

The main problem is that we don't have a list that plays well in every matchup or in majority of match-ups. I've been playing Dreadwood Alarielle list for some time and it's only list that I have consitently good results (not great but good) of course there is still Gnarlroot list but it's not very fun to play and I  know that with Dreadwood I got a chace at better results but there're bigger results swings . 

[Azurious]

On 24/01/2018 at 1:06 AM, Mirage8112 said:

 

Just thought I would make a slight comment on the above:

I don't see armies as having "hard counters". While your points above are well taken, I still disagree that KO and TZ are a hard counter as "an army". Certainly lists can see their hard counters across the table from them, but seeing a particular army across the table from you doesn't really mean anything until you see what units they're working with. Granted we make certain assumptions about what we'll see across the table from us when we sit down to write a list. The prevalence of of certain things in the meta always inform the choices we make between which units we take and in what combination. But even when writing the best "all-comers" list you can, you will invariably run up against a mechanic your list is weak to. 

And thank god right? Every list should have a counter. 

But, when you say:

 

That's not true at all. The winterleaf anti-demon list I posted a number of pages back on the thread has a model count of just over 150. We are fully capable of fielding a force that uses a high model count (and thus wound count) to rob gunlines of their ability to put their firepower anywhere useful. A block of 20 Dryads can easily eat 10 wounds and still fight on. And hell even if the enemy did 15-20 wounds (though magic/shooting/battleshock), with that many bodies you still have 4 full strength units of 30 to work with. These scary lists you're referencing revolve around their ability to take out lynchpin units (TLA in a Gnarlroot list, Durthu or a big block of hunters in a free spirits list) or shut down one very particular mechanic that the list requires to work (healing in Gnarlroot list for example). 

You could write a list that is a hard counter for anything in the game; full stop. Granted it might not work well against anything else, but all things being equal you have a fair shot against anything in a 1-on-1 match.  

You are absolutely right and I feel I may have been too vague in regards to my initial point.  I was not attempting to bemoan sylvaneth as a hopeless cause against Tzeentch and KO.  As you say if you know you're fighting them you can make some excellent lists that even the field very well.  My point was entirely directed at singles tournaments where you have no real control over who you face.  In this environment players will be bringing an all comers style list with an eye on what they are likely to face should they win some games.  Recently top tables have been shown to be a mixture of KO, Tzeentch, SCE, khorne and bonesplittas.  The problem sylvaneth player has is if he/she brings an all comers style list (Gnarlroot, alleriale bomb) then the previously mentioned tzeentch and ko have a very favourable match up against it.  If you specialise more into horde to combat those two forces then tanky sce and fyreslayers become a big problem.  Off the back of this my refering to hard counters was in relation to the common iteration of tree lists seen (as of yet mass dryad horde has not been seen, at least to my knowledge) as opposed to a generalisation of army vs army.

[DantePQ]

Yep ^

Exactly what I meant - Sylvaneth is stuck as a list that woudl perform well enough against both KO/Tzeentch and Fyreslayers/Murderhost is hard to make.  That's why we don't see Sylvaneth performing well in tournaments anymore. 

I still think that alpha strike Dreadwood is out best shot. I had some nice results with it against DoT,KO and horde armies but I know it isn't optimal. 

[Mirage8112]

22 hours ago, Azurious said:

My point was entirely directed at singles tournaments where you have no real control over who you face.  In this environment players will be bringing an all comers style list with an eye on what they are likely to face should they win some games.  Recently top tables have been shown to be a mixture of KO, Tzeentch, SCE, khorne and bonesplittas.  The problem sylvaneth player has is if he/she brings an all comers style list (Gnarlroot, alleriale bomb) then the previously mentioned tzeentch and ko have a very favourable match up against it. If you specialise more into horde to combat those two forces then tanky sce and fyreslayers become a big problem. 

Not exactly sure what the "Allarielle bomb" list is, but I do know that Gnarlroot hasn't really been a good all comers list for nearly a year now.  An "all comers" list should really be that; a list that can take "just about everything" evenly. That means not loading up in one particular dimension (for example, Gnarlroot lists sacrifice combat power for healing and magic). Gnarlroot was powerful when the GHB first came out thanks to being rather points efficient, and relatively new in the Meta. That changed when Disciples of Tzeencth battletome was released since it became very obvious very quickly that although Sylvaneth have better than average magic, Tzeencth just does magic better (as it should be). We also have a some new contenders for magical supremacy in the Death update (Nagash is pretty much guaranteed anti-magic).  

Also, I'm not sure why SCE or Fyreslayers would be especially problematic for a dryad horde army. Looking at it on paper it seems to me like it would be a fairly competitive game. 
 

22 hours ago, Azurious said:

My refering to hard counters was in relation to the common iteration of tree lists seen (as of yet mass dryad horde has not been seen, at least to my knowledge) as opposed to a generalisation of army vs army.

Again you're saying "common iteration of tree lists seen". I might point out that Sylvaneth have top spots here and there at tournaments last year, in 2017 Sylvaneth came in 5Th at LVO and 2nd at AoS GT heat 2. Alliance 2017 was also won by a Sylvaneth Player. Two of those were even Gnarlroot lists. 

But even all that aside, if you watch a the driver of a Ferrari drive repeatedly into a wall you don't conclude "Ferrari's aren't competitive race cars", you question why the hell they don't go around the wall. Tzeentch (esp Changehost) stomps all over Gnarlroot and low model count lists, yet nearly every battle report I've seen has the Sylvaneth player taking things like Durthu monster mash/Gnarlroot variations. All I can think is "Dear God why?" There are plenty of other competitive builds we can take that can compete vs the mid-tier armies. Yet the solution everybody seems to jump to is "Moar Hunterz + gnarlroot". The solution is "try something different until you find something that works" not "keep taking the same thing hoping it's going to turn out differently".

Just to clarify, I don't think Sylvaneth are the easiest army in AoS to play, and there's no mystical list that's going to give you leg up vs every army on the tables (that's pretty much the definition of OP). We do have a number of builds that are very powerful providing you are careful with your positioning and the dice don't ****** you (it is a dice game after all). But if the only version of Sylvaneth you can play is Gnarlroot (or some variation thereof) and you expect the event to have a large amount of Tz players: then yes. It's very possible you'll face an uphill battle. But it's not specifically because Sylvaneth "Sucks vs [inset army name]". If you're not getting any traction with a list at an event, you either need to change your tactics, or write a better list next time. 

[Nico]

Sylvaneth almost certainly need to up the model count to be competitive now. All the base units are cheaper and Dryads have a meaningful Horde discount, which helps. Battleshock is a problem (somewhat mitigated if you go Ironbark).

[MayItBe]

Hey

I'm after my second big tournament in Poland and I want to share my experience with you.

As as always, I took gnarlroot list, this time maxed on hunters, for shooting:

TLA [Gnarled, Oaken, Regrowth]
Branchwych [Acorn, Treesong]
Branchwych [Ranu's, Verdant]
20 Dryad
10 Dryad
5 Tree-Revenants
3 KurnothBow
3 KurnothBow
3 KurnothBow
3 KurnothBow
Household + Gnarlroot

5-game event:
1st battle vs Changehost (with kairos) [Starstrike]
My list was designed to win against DoT. It went good for me from start to end: mystical and damned helped with 1st turn kill on gaunt and herald, and 8 wound on kairos (LoC out of range). He summoned new herald, and managed to kill my treelord and one unit of hunters with double turn. 20 dryads cleared center objective contested with 30 brimestones. Turn 3  I won initiative and captured all 3 objectives, when he couldnt do the same in his turn, and as the time was up I claimed my first Major of the event.

2nd battle vs mixed Order with Endrinriggers, fulminators and retributors with 2 SCE teleporting heroes. {Scorched Earth]
Pumped up with win against one of DoT players i was choosen to play on stream - my friends was watching it from home and agreed that i couldnt do anything more to win this game. My opponent was saving almost every shooting attack (5 saves on 5+? hold my beer!). First round i've managed to kill only one banner and inflict 1 wound on chemist. That was one of this moments when you really cant do anything, because dices hates you.

3rd battle vs Mixed High Elves Order (dragon, loremaster, luminark on balewind, and 2 bolt throwers) [Knife to the Heart]
With only one loss I still was fighting for podium. Plan was easy - If I was able to do 18 wounds vs 4+ characters I should easily get rid of dragon (14WO) in my first round. Yet, my dices was still eager to increase my difficulty level even after second game. only 7 wounds on dragon from buffed hunters was a catastrophe. My opponent was deploying 40 minutes, and I grew impatient. After 2 rounds I was holding good, but then I was unable to kill Luminark atop balewind vortex to claim major victory and after very unpleasant game I was somewhere in the middle of the table with really bad sight for the next day.

4th  battle vs Order Draconis [2 Dragons with 30 dragon knights] [Duality of Death]
Yay! Another dragon... This time I was ready and deployed my woods appropriately to treesong TLA in range to objective and screened him dryads. I decided to go only for one objective, but now i thing i should sacrifice one branchwych to score 2 points turn one instead of 1, as it was really hard for him to get to my TLA, as he must split his dragons to score both. Of course once again my shooting (all with damned!) was ****** and again 7 wounds was maximum i could get. He decided to charge my weak flank without TLA and charged 2 squads of my hunters. And then dices decided its my birthday, because in combat i lost only 1 hunter to dragon. I was rolling saves like a mad man! Turn 2 my wyldwoods killed half of the bigger cavalry squad (lots of 5+ for roused with magic) and at last i've killed his general (dragon). From that point on we both knew that i'll kill his second dragon sitting on objective in 3 turns that was left. Instead of conceding he wanted to roll some more but i was calm, as Major Victory was assured.

5th battle vs Death (Neferata, Mortis, GKterrorgheist, ghost spirits and cavalry + skellies) [Battle for the Pass]
Not surprisingly, again, no single monster character was killed first round. 20Dryads bunkered on left flank on objective and stayed there for the rest of the game. 10 dryads died bravely scoring right flank, as his monsters chewed through their vulnerable bodies. 9 spirits charged my left flank - he pull out small dice bag saying "i have 56 attacks, hitting 5+ and doing mortals on 6+, you ready?"  as i responded calmly "yea, sure, but you have -1 hitting dryads, and they are +2 save re rolling 1s". After brief silence he said "F** it, i'm not even rolling this." His vulnerable heroes was dying one per turn, and not much more to say about this game.

My weak day1 result  gave me easier opponents and I've claimed 3rd place, to my surprise!

I still think that you can win against any Tzeentch/KO list with clever positioning and maintaining range. I'm not saying it is easy, but doable. Gnarlroot is staying with me, as rousing wyldwoods is my only source of MW, though unreliable, having 6 spells to cast helps a lot


I hope my English is readable for you folks. Next report after LondonGT, see you there!

 

[Aezeal]

Can a luminark be on a bale wind? 

[Richelieu]

20 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

Can a luminark be on a bale wind? 

Heck yeah it can!  Those horses ride that cyclone like champions.

[Craze]

Hi everyone,

 

last weekend my local GW started hosting a series they call "Mini-Mosh", meaning you start with 250(260) points, then after 4 weeks go to 500, then 750 and in the end 1000 points.

As I am really a noob to TT right now I was really happy about this event because it looked like a perfect starting point for a beginner to delve into the world of AoS.

The event itself was very nice, I fielded 10 Dryads, 5 Tree-Revenants and a Branchwych and managed to win 2 out-of 3 games, losing only to a rampaging Varghulf Courtier with a huge appetite for  wood splinters.

Now in 3 weeks the 500 point event comes up and I am scared of meeting KO with Khemist + 30 Arkanauts, because there are a couple of KO players in this series and I could watch a couple of games at the last event where they really OBLITERATED 250 points in 1 turn.

My plan was to add 3 Kurnoth Hunters with Greatbows to use the superior range of their shooting attacks to decimate the KO force before they can shoot back.

From your experience, do you think this is a solid plan or is there anything else you would prefer if you would fear meeting KO?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

[DantePQ]

@Craze 

You can't go wrong with Kurnoth Hunters it's  bows or scythes -  either way you'll be good. 

Reagarding KO - it's hard match up - but KO are your best shot as they're multi wound unit that should be able to go after Khemist, also maybe more Dryads oif you have any more as they are better at taking damage then T-Revs.

I would take Branchwraight (with Briarsheath and Gnarled Warrior/Gift of Ghyran) with Verdan'ts Blessing. Extra negative modifiers are great she would be very hard to kill inside of Wyldwood 

2x10 Dryads  

3 Kurnoth Hunters with Bows 

[Craze]

1 hour ago, DantePQ said:

 but KO are your best shot as they're multi wound unit that should be able to go after Khemist, also maybe more Dryads oif you have any more as they are better at taking damage then T-Revs.

With "KO" in this context you mean Bow Hunters?

My plan (pure theory right now) would be to hammer the Khemist with bow hunters, place Wyldwoods strategically and port in T-Revs to try to pressure Arkanauts in melee, while advancing with Dryads and my Wych. Until i have put some serious damage on the Khemist I would try to keep the T-Revs and Wych out of firing range of the Arkanauts. By placing Wyldwoods to prevent them from running in the first turn I would be able to maximise the advantage of the 30" range of the hunters. Of Course this is pure theory right now...

[Walkirriox]

10 hours ago, MayItBe said:

Hey

I'm after my second big tournament in Poland and I want to share my experience with you.

As as always, I took gnarlroot list, this time maxed on hunters, for shooting:

TLA [Gnarled, Oaken, Regrowth]
Branchwych [Acorn, Treesong]
Branchwych [Ranu's, Verdant]
20 Dryad
10 Dryad
5 Tree-Revenants
3 KurnothBow
3 KurnothBow
3 KurnothBow
3 KurnothBow
Household + Gnarlroot

5-game event:
1st battle vs Changehost (with kairos) [Starstrike]
My list was designed to win against DoT. It went good for me from start to end: mystical and damned helped with 1st turn kill on gaunt and herald, and 8 wound on kairos (LoC out of range). He summoned new herald, and managed to kill my treelord and one unit of hunters with double turn. 20 dryads cleared center objective contested with 30 brimestones. Turn 3  I won initiative and captured all 3 objectives, when he couldnt do the same in his turn, and as the time was up I claimed my first Major of the event.

 

Hi! Congratulations about the tournament! Thank you for sharing your experience, it really help us to learn different lists and strategies!

I'm really interested on your list, as I have a match this weekend against a tzeentch player (daemon list). We are playing a firestorm campaing and I have 1800p to build a list. Would you recommend me playing your list but without one unit of kurnoth hunters? 

Could you explain more details about your tzeentch match? I would like to read some strategies, tips and "what/what not to do" about playing against tzeentch daemons.

Thank you very much!