AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[Satyrical Sophist]

5 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

The only time Gors outperform Ungors mathematically is in medium sized units which should never be run. Basically every line infantry unit in BoC should either be run at Minimum or Maximum sizes. Also the big rumor leak says that Bestigors are unchanged in BoC - Gors are getting a bit cheaper (again this all rumor so take it with plenty of salt). 

What's the rumour say about the bird goats?

[Popisdead]

On 5/2/2019 at 9:15 AM, SugarMaple82 said:

Anyone else looking at converting a Ghorgon into the new Keeper of Secrets?

It was done before, I've posted photos in the old Slaanesh thread (dunno if they renamed it or made a new one).  It was a 40k army and the photos aren't amazing but it was an Armies on Parade winner.

who was Malekith's father?  Aenerion?  There is an old pencil and paper piece of art from the 6th ed HE book of Aenerion fighting a Keeper.  You can make the Ghorgon (with some legit green stuff skills) look like that.  GeoOrc did a converison with the metal Keeper years ago on his blog.

[Fulkes]

The reason to compare medium sized units though is because you can't expect to be hitting the enemy at full strength everytime. Sure if you manage to get to hit first with a block of 40 Ungor it's good, but chances are more likely you'll be hitting with less.

[SwampHeart]

11 minutes ago, Fulkes said:

Sure if you manage to get to hit first with a block of 40 Ungor it's good, but chances are more likely you'll be hitting with less.

You should be dictating the pace and scope of combats with BoC in most cases. if you aren't you're probably losing already. 
 

27 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

What's the rumour say about the bird goats?

Enlightened on Disc up by 20 - every other bird is unchanged. 

[Fulkes]

Even when dictating the game you can't avoid taking casualties. If your Ungor survive being punched in the face they're not going to be swinging with 40 models. The fact you need to make excuses to justify only a maxed sized unit comparison shows that the comparison isn't flawless.

Ungor only trump Gor at full size. At any other size Gor trump Ungor. Especially when comparing MSU units. Which means Gor are going to be useful for longer than Ungor after that first round of combat.

I feel like everyone looked at those max sized unit numbers and then stopped considering that you can't keep those units at those sizes for the entire game.

I admit to being a bit stubborn about what I think about units. I mean I was running Repentia in a Sisters of Battle army back under Codex Witchhunters. The thing is, I also did really well with said Repentia despitr bring told they were bad because I found ways to use them effectively. And I feel like Gors do have good uses and clear benefits over Ungor and Bestigor, but I am assuming everything in the book has some utility, even if it's a bit more niche.

[SwampHeart]

28 minutes ago, Fulkes said:

I feel like everyone looked at those max sized unit numbers and then stopped considering that you can't keep those units at those sizes for the entire game.

No what I'm basing my opinion off of is actual practical experience. I desperately want Gors to be a good and valid unit, I own 90 of them. However I've also got nearly 70 games in with BoC against a variety of armies and play styles and I can tell you that through sheer volume of playing they're not a viable choice. This is further backed up by most BoC tournament lists, the best finish with BoC using Gors was Joel McGrath at CanCon and he still only has the minimum 10 for Desolating Beastherd. 

You're being stubborn because you've formed an opinion and don't want to change it. When you dictate the pace of combat with BoC, especially when leveraging the tools available to the book (Movement Bonuses, Taurus, etc.) you're going to swing first with full sized units. The reason you're going to do that is because BoC units absolutely melt under any form of returned attacks. What isn't going to happen is you're going to lose 10 Ungor or 5 Gor, you're going to lose 25 Unngor and 20 Gors at a time. And once you've taken those casualties it doesn't matter how they perform in smaller units because the output from both is so trivial as to be unimportant. You're looking at combats as small multiple damage increments as opposed to one swing and its over - the latter is how AoS works at current. You will have no models left to swing after wyches, GGRs, HBs, etc get their swings through. If you aren't going first at full size with your unit you're basically not swinging at all. 

I think in a meta where you played lots of MSU style play Gors may be more attractive but in my experience that simply isn't competitive AoS. There are chaff units (which you can sweep with your own chaff without investing more points in) and there are hammers. People just don't run medium size/small units that are expected to be effective. You're more than welcome to try and make Gors work and they may be serviceable for you but at the top end of competitive play Gors are a bad choice. And to be clear your assumption about everything having utility - unfortunately that isn't true at all. Our book has some of the worst internal balance in AoS. 

 

Edited June 5, 2019 by SwampHeart

[Fulkes]

Top end competetive play means next to nothing to me due to how they s ore tournaments being often different than how we score games (via secondaries to break ties and the like).

I appreciate that you've shared your experiance, but I can't hold it to be universal. GHB2019 will be shaking the game up here in a month or less so we can always pick back up on this topic in the future.

[CB42]

2 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

I think in a meta where you played lots of MSU style play Gors may be more attractive but in my experience that simply isn't competitive AoS. There are chaff units (which you can sweep with your own chaff without investing more points in) and there are hammers. People just don't run medium size/small units that are expected to be effective. You're more than welcome to try and make Gors work and they may be serviceable for you but at the top end of competitive play Gors are a bad choice. And to be clear your assumption about everything having utility - unfortunately that isn't true at all. Our book has some of the worst internal balance in AoS. 

 

Definitely agree with SwampHeart on Gors, unfortunately. And if you're going to use MSU style play, 10 Bestigors outperform 10 Gors by so much that it's not worth considering the Gors.

Something else worth thinking about: 40 Ungors are better for screening than 30 Gors. I was at a tournament recently where I was playing against melee stormcast and I needed to screen against him dropping 20 Sequitors, 10 Evocators, and Gavriel Surecharge behind my lines. 40 Ungors, spread 1 inch apart each, were able to cover my entire rear side plus part of the two sides, and even better, since they are on 25mm bases (which are less than 1") I could place other large units like my 30 Bestigors on either side of a line of Ungors and still remain within coherency.

And 3 x 10 Ungors are better for screening than 2 x 10 Gors are because you have 3 MSU units rather than 2, and neither one will survive taking a hit anyways, so you'd rather just have more units in that case.

[Myrdin]

2 hours ago, Fulkes said:

Top end competetive play means next to nothing to me due to how they s ore tournaments being often different than how we score games (via secondaries to break ties and the like).

I appreciate that you've shared your experiance, but I can't hold it to be universal. GHB2019 will be shaking the game up here in a month or less so we can always pick back up on this topic in the future.

You are giving GHB update more credit than it deserves in my opinion. There wont be any major changes in the pricing as far as Beastmen are concidered. I mighty be proven wrong on this but I very much doubt I will. The units are pretty well priced, in general, its stats and ablities and their lack of that are amiss. And as our army is nowhere near the top, despite it being competitive enough due to some stuff we can pull, there is no real need for GW to shake things up radically for us. As for the grind to death ratio > Swampheart is absolutely correct about the current pacing of the game > things swing, and things die en masse.

This no longer is the day of Warhammer fantasy where two blocks would grind against each other as it used to be.

I have nowhere near the sheer volume of games under my belt as he does, however I can say that things melt quickly when combat is joined. And BoC units are especially of the "do or die" type.

Anyway, we`ll see what price changes they bring. Honestly cant see bestigors getting more expensive. They are low tier elite unit, in other armies.

Only thing that will get a hit, are Tzaan Exalted on discs,but we all knew that one was coming, when they are pretty much the most killy thing in the entire army for meager 140 pts.  Wish they dropped Skyfires by 20 as well in recompense though.

 

So, outside of the Gor discussion > Do we have any estimated release date for the GHB update ?

[Fulkes]

The shift in the meta will be more than just our book, which can shift what is "good" for us (who knows, maybe our new meta turns into a Warherd one, ot Monster Mash becomes more viable for us).

That said, I'd guess we'll see it on pre-order next week at the soonest, and the last week of June at the latest.

[The_Yellow_Sign]

6 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

You should be dictating the pace and scope of combats with BoC in most cases. if you aren't you're probably losing already. 
 

Enlightened on Disc up by 20 - every other bird is unchanged. 

Damn, I was hoping Skyfires were going down. They've gotten worse with the Activation Wars.

[Fulkes]

I saw a confused reaction on my post about top end play, so let me clarify a little:

Tournament meta is only useful for those playing in that meta due to differences in scoring leading to armies gaining extra points on kill points, painting, sportsmanship or whatever else the TO wants, meaning that rankings aren't purely on a win/loss ratio which makes it less useful for more casual players.

Likewise, annecdotes about personal experiences can be a decent guideline for people to avoid major pitfalls, but should never be taken as gospel due to differences in local metas.

So while I appreciate personal experiance, I find the worth of one unit over another can be drastically different based on who you play against.

[decker_cky]

1 hour ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

Damn, I was hoping Skyfires were going down. They've gotten worse with the Activation Wars.

The 'leak' includes ungor raiders at 80/240 (ie, 30 ungor raiders cost the same as 40) and changed a bunch of costs from the brand new fyreslayers book, both of which suggest it is nonsense.

[decker_cky]

If those 'leaks' are true, nurgle beasts is the way to go with 150 pt pestilent throng and 50 pt chariots. 

7 individual chariots for 350 pts with shamans for speed (13"), a feculent gnarlmaw for run and charge, and a reroll to charge for a fairly easy turn 1 charge on most chariots. They cause decent damage on the charge, then when they die, they explode, with a surprisingly threatening 7" aura from their huge bases. You can rely on the wheel to stack some extra damage to finish off support units that you catch. 

Pestilent throng (150) + 3x10 ungors (180) + 7x1 chariots (350) + 2 shamans (100) + cogs (80) = 860 for a pretty nice janky death bomb (12 units that can explode for MW) that covers your battleline. 

Edited June 6, 2019 by decker_cky

[Fulkes]

If we mean this leak that cropped up on Facebook now as well it's pretty suspect. I mean unless GW hasn't been able to sell a single Endless Spells kit for Box I don't see the Taurus getting that cheap.

 

EDIT: And chances are it's fake or GW threw it out online to watch the reactions.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Fulkes

[Myrdin]

Interesting leaks.

We`ll see soon enough which of them were true or close enough, and which ones were complete miss.

Greater Beast God knows that Bullgors could use the price drop (and the battalions as well).

80pts Beastlord... yeah, I mean, honestly I`d rather see BL getting some extra passive, like All BoC units within 12" using his Dics. instead of their own for Battleshock test or something. Cheaper chariots > if its true, then they just got even better than they already were, to the point where Razorgors would become completely obsolete.

Again, we`ll see soon enough. Lets hope for some good price drops *fingerscrossed*

Edited June 6, 2019 by Myrdin

[Fulkes]

Beastlord needs a rework from the ground up. His command ability is a paragraph long disaster full of clauses, and is at odds with the Blade of the Desacrator since the command ability makes you chase heroes, but the blade makes you chase hordes.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Fulkes
Typo

[Satyrical Sophist]

4 hours ago, Fulkes said:

Beastlord needs a rework from the ground up. His command ability is a paragraph long disaster full of clauses, and is at odds with the Blade of the Desacrator since the command ability makes you chase heroes, but the blade makes you chase hordes.

Honestly I quite like the beast lord. He basically lives for Gavespawn though. Give him the Gnarl blade and he kills most foot heroes pretty reliably, and has a good chance of spawndom.

Seems really weird to object to him based on the mandatory artifact for one of the Great frays. I mean the Great Bray Shaman is at odds with Blade of the Desecrator since he wants to stay out of combat, but the blade makes you chase hordes. 

Blade of the Desecrator is just a bad artifact. Quite a lot of the mandatory artifacts or command traits are, it's one of the toggles they have for balancing them.

[Fulkes]

14 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Honestly I quite like the beast lord. He basically lives for Gavespawn though. Give him the Gnarl blade and he kills most foot heroes pretty reliably, and has a good chance of spawndom.

Seems really weird to object to him based on the mandatory artifact for one of the Great frays. I mean the Great Bray Shaman is at odds with Blade of the Desecrator since he wants to stay out of combat, but the blade makes you chase hordes. 

Blade of the Desecrator is just a bad artifact. Quite a lot of the mandatory artifacts or command traits are, it's one of the toggles they have for balancing them.

My problem with the Beastlord is two fold: first his synergy with the army is too much of a mess. I don't care how thematic a rule is, if it takes a paragraph to explain it then it's not a good rule. Having listened to a Stormcast so with Jarvis where he talks about killing your darlings that rule was definitely a darling that should have been killed.

Secondly, unless a character is specifically written for a given subfactions, they should be viable in all subfactions. The fact that the Beastlord is only good in Gavespawn isn't a glowing endorsement for how well his rules are written, it's more an endorsment for Gavespawn for taking a hero tax and managing to make him have a niche use.

And all melee weapons are bad for the Shaman. The thing is that a melee weapon shouldn't be bad on a melee character. Underwelming compared to other options perhaps, but not outright bad.

I'd rather the Beastlord had an aura of run and charge so he'd have more synergy with units that can't take a command as well as getting to do so himself.

I have my qualms with Allherd are many (it has a trait that wants you to charging every turn for the leadership buff, but the command trait is for buffing summoning and not buffing our charges (say giving a unit 3d6 choose the highest for 1cp). Alternatively if it wants to buff summoning it should give a second sacrifice every turn for a CP since 1d3 would be actually useful when compared to the 1 for 1 trade.

As it stands Gavespawn is the always choice, Dark Walkers is the sometimes choice but Allherd is the never choice and that's just sad.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Fulkes

[Myrdin]

I do agree on the Beastlord wholeheartedly.

Its a Beast f*ing Lord. He should have at least one  passive trait, that works well in synergy with our army, and as he is of the Brayherd type himself, should be also able to Run n Charge on default.
I really do like kenshin620 idea for BLs command ability. Instead of what he has now (agree that huge paragraph of text is like.... why ? This could have been so much more simpler and shorter) > having a free use on one of the Rulebook command abilities (auto run, ignore battleshocks, reroll charges). That would actually BE GOOD, synergise well and make the BL a solid support, rather than just a one ride pony Artifact wielder.

Personally I would like for him to have a passive trait > if the BL is the General all BoC units withing 12/18", regardless of type, be it Brayherd, Warherd, Thunderscorn or monsters, can chosse to  use his Bravery value as their own. Just how like the generals used to work back in the day. Especially for our army that would mean some reduction to Battleshock, as most of our units are between 4-5 wih occasional 6 Bravery I believe.

And yeah... its the motherFing BEASTLORD.... you know... the Lord of all Beasts ? Imposing his will over all members of the Herd ?  Way to cool, to not do that 

 

 

Just a though > what about running 4-5 BL as a single unit, on 2K points you can squeeze in 2 artifacts. Gnarled Blade and Volcanic Axe, both of which are pretty deadly with BLs 6A re-roll 1s to hit. A little hero hammer that can cleave a lot of stuff be it hordes, medium elites and even some tough monster, for fairly decent point allotment.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Myrdin

[decker_cky]

I like beastlords as a gavespawn player. Gnarled Blade and Volcanic Axe means you can take two that are are extremely deadly to anything they strike before, and when they die, they were a cheap hero to source you a spawn. Multiple beastlords makes the command ability a bit more palatable too.

The command ability sucks (a theme for beasts of chaos, tbh) and could easily have been an ability on the card in addition to a good command trait. Don't try to force the command trait and instead use the beastlord as a cheap missile you can use to deny area and to kill anything that comes within its deathzone. 

[Satyrical Sophist]

3 hours ago, decker_cky said:

I like beastlords as a gavespawn player. Gnarled Blade and Volcanic Axe means you can take two that are are extremely deadly to anything they strike before, and when they die, they were a cheap hero to source you a spawn. Multiple beastlords makes the command ability a bit more palatable too.

The command ability sucks (a theme for beasts of chaos, tbh) and could easily have been an ability on the card in addition to a good command trait. Don't try to force the command trait and instead use the beastlord as a cheap missile you can use to deny area and to kill anything that comes within its deathzone. 

I think the coolest fix would be allowing a brayherd unit to fight immediately afterwards if he kills an enemy hero. That way its a gamble, if the beastlord can do it then its super cool, if he fails then you suffer.

[mukslinger]

I just picked up the starter and a herdstone yesterday. I find the idea of Gavespawn interesting, what would be the typical list for Gavespawn? I'm trying to plan out my purchases, lol. To be honest it all appeals to me, bullgors, dragon ogres, rawr! I'm thinking of building up a Gavespawn list first, then experimenting as I buy a few other units here and there, maybe mix daemons, who knows. But before I get ahead of myself and go on a spree.. a starting point would be cool, haha.

[Fulkes]

Desolating Beastherd is pretty much the go-to for most of us. It has a lot of flexibility with a low count of required units making it easy to run.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Fulkes

[Myrdin]

I do prefer the Brass Despoilers over most. Desolating is nice but to me is worth only if I run with 40 Raiders, Cygor and a Shammy with +1 to Hit when ambushing artifact. Which is not always something I wanna go do. Brass is easy to do, and while there are units that benefit less from the effect than others, some benefit form it rather nicely. Like a bunch of Minotaurs and Gorgons.... oh yesss... Brass Gorgons are the Jam!

Though I`ve been toying with the idea of a Chaos Sorci thrown in the mix. Brings pretty nice spammable re-rolls of 1s to the army.