AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[SwampHeart]

13 hours ago, Xasto said:

Thanks! Means the Taurus probably is worth more now! Haha

I agree 100% - I actually just recently swapped up my list to include the spell because of the prevalence of Gristlegore builds I'm sure we'll see. And that paid dividends at my FLGS tournament this weekend - played FEC in round 3 against the Zombie Dragon variant - popped the bull on him and then charged it with 9 Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc, he was able to use their fight before death ability but it was a huge moment in the game for sure. 

[Kevin K]

16 hours ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

Yep, that's right.

 

That's great, but how do you decide which was "applied second"?  It's nice that Taurus was their example.

[Kazimer]

33 minutes ago, Kevin K said:

That's great, but how do you decide which was "applied second"?  It's nice that Taurus was their example.

Whatever triggered second. If its a passive ability, its always first for example. So since Taurus hits the board after a command ability triggered to fight first, it has priority. First on, last off. Like a stack of dishes.

[Kevin K]

10 hours ago, Kazimer said:

Whatever triggered second. If its a passive ability, its always first for example. So since Taurus hits the board after a command ability triggered to fight first, it has priority. First on, last off. Like a stack of dishes.

So if the Taurus was moved between turns (already on board) and a CA is uses at the beginning of combats that says to fight at the beginning of combat, they would fight first? (one of the realms does that - Hyish I think)

Edited February 26, 2019 by Kevin K

[Sauriv]

2 hours ago, Kevin K said:

So if the Taurus was moved between turns (already on board) and a CA is uses at the beginning of combats that says to fight at the beginning of combat, they would fight first? (one of the realms does that - Hyish I think)

Yes, the latest effect to be activated is the one that counts. taurus is activated in the hero phase (or start of battle round) 

[Angoose]

Yeah was wondering about our beloved flaming bull and its interaction with murder bats

I had great fun and success with it this past weekend at slaughter. 

Also the horn could help aswell, providing a nice debuff providing the bat attacks in its aura. Helped me vs a double LoB dragon list. 

Ungor raiders look even more useful to try and knock them down a couple of pegs or even screening your lines from first turn bat rushes. 

I think we should be OK vs FEC. Hard matchups but not impossible. 

[SwampHeart]

On 2/24/2019 at 6:30 PM, Xasto said:

Would I be correct in thinking that the Wildfire Taurus, which makes a unit fight at the end of the combat phase, would counter the FEC command trait which lets the general fight at the begining of the combat phase?

So upon some further reading - the current RAW would be that a Gristlegore character would not be able to fight at all (see attached wording). Once the bull hits him he must fight last and since the Gristlegore ability says he fights before any units are picked and can't again he's no longer able to fight. This is a super strict RAW interpretation that I'd never actually try to play to be clear. 

[Kazimer]

So for the whole deepstriking ability great frays give you, why would I want to deepstrike on turn two with the dark frays ability? 

[The_Yellow_Sign]

46 minutes ago, Kazimer said:

So for the whole deepstriking ability great frays give you, why would I want to deepstrike on turn two with the dark frays ability? 

Because if you are forced to come on turn one your opponent will attempt to zone you out. If you can come on turn 2 then they will be often forced to leave some gaps as they move to capture objectives.

[Kazimer]

So im making my first Beastmen only list (previously just with BoK), is Gavespawn as obviously more powerful than the rest as it seems? It just seems to have so much more direct power than either of the other two.

[kenshin620]

26 minutes ago, Kazimer said:

So im making my first Beastmen only list (previously just with BoK), is Gavespawn as obviously more powerful than the rest as it seems? It just seems to have so much more direct power than either of the other two.

Yea BoC was the 2nd time they attempted to make the 2E sub-faction allegiance thing, first being SCE (and THAT was a massive mess), well 3rd time I guess if you count Tamurkhan's Horde.

So they kind of didn't know know to well balance the entire "forced to pick 1 trait and 1 item" thing. Well it still isn't perfect but I think that the FEC ones are a bit more interesting.

I mean the Desecrator Blade is just flat out terrible with a very confusing role. You get high rend against hordes (who usually have 5+ saves anyways), and nothing against things that would actually have high armor like elite units or monsters.

 

I'm curious to know just how different it would be if you had the OPTION to take the item and trait, or be more like the previous versions of sub-factions like KO Skyports.

I mean I do understand the logic behind it, you get 2 "free" passives (well 1 passive and 1 new command ability) but to compensate you are "taxed" a trait and item. Problem arises though when there are generic traits/itmes that are too good to pass up (Staunch Defender) or one subfaction is far better than the others (Gavespawn).

And then theres the Hammers of Sigmar Special Character problem....

[Maddpainting]

2 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

Yea BoC was the 2nd time they attempted to make the 2E sub-faction allegiance thing, first being SCE (and THAT was a massive mess), well 3rd time I guess if you count Tamurkhan's Horde.

So they kind of didn't know know to well balance the entire "forced to pick 1 trait and 1 item" thing. Well it still isn't perfect but I think that the FEC ones are a bit more interesting.

I mean the Desecrator Blade is just flat out terrible with a very confusing role. You get high rend against hordes (who usually have 5+ saves anyways), and nothing against things that would actually have high armor like elite units or monsters.

 

I'm curious to know just how different it would be if you had the OPTION to take the item and trait, or be more like the previous versions of sub-factions like KO Skyports.

I mean I do understand the logic behind it, you get 2 "free" passives (well 1 passive and 1 new command ability) but to compensate you are "taxed" a trait and item. Problem arises though when there are generic traits/itmes that are too good to pass up (Staunch Defender) or one subfaction is far better than the others (Gavespawn).

And then theres the Hammers of Sigmar Special Character problem....

At lower points Allherd is clearly better, tho the extra rend vs hordes seems bad at first, but then you actually look at how many are "Ignore 1 rend" and more have 4+ saves than you think. It actually is handy at times. I see more armies with ignore -1 rend than i dont. 

I purposely used it a couple games (for our league) b.c my opponent had 70+ models with "Ignore -1 rend" another game had 60+ models with 4+ saves.

For a TAC list or 1 off tournaments, sure Gavespawn will be better in general, but to say its a confusing roles isnt true. BoC has very little -2 rend, this is a way to get it for mass hordes that ignore that 1 rend or has 4+.

I would argue that Allherd is more competitive than most are giving it credit for, especially b.c you can re-roll charges, summoning units with re-rolls isnt that bad, focus on a flank very hard with your general. If you are able to get lucky on the 4+ a turn and a couple 2 PC each turn you can easily summon Chimera turn 2, worst chase you get 6 which can still summon 2 units (tho i would wait) I won a game playing 300points down (it was a league game with mustering points) going allherd and waiting a turn making sure my bestigors and heroes couldnt die (saced my Ungors/Raiders/Gors) once i summoned the Chimera and turn 2 charged with him, Beastlord, 3 units of bestigors it was over, after than turn 3 i summoned 2 units to go to objectives, then turn 4 summon 2 more. It just kept snow balling into my favor. But the -2 rend and the Chimera +2" re-roll charges is what won me the game, my Bestlord killed some "Ignore -1 rend) so i was able to spend the 1 CP i have left to buff my bestigors.

Now, for tournaments i am for sure using Gavespawn, the added attacks and the added units of Spawns are just a bit better, thats not to say the others dont have a place.

[Kazimer]

The issue is that the reroll charge and even its battleshock ability both require you to get into CC first. This SEVERELY cuts down on the number of times you get to use these powers.

[Deadkitten]

17 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

So upon some further reading - the current RAW would be that a Gristlegore character would not be able to fight at all (see attached wording). Once the bull hits him he must fight last and since the Gristlegore ability says he fights before any units are picked and can't again he's no longer able to fight. This is a super strict RAW interpretation that I'd never actually try to play to be clear. 

The player with Priority chooses the order in which the triggers stack.  So the Taurus would work but only on the BoC player's turn.  The Ghoul King would still get to fight bc the Taurus ability (attacks last) would superced the Ghoul King's ability (cannot fight in the combat phase).

So doable but Gristlegore will be a problem.....  The Taurus is one of the more obvious answers.

[Satyrical Sophist]

Had a funny small game Vs a Trogherd yesterday. Won 33 to 22, but the kill point difference was astonishing. In a 1k I killed 400 points. He killed 1200 points. 

 

[kenshin620]

7 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

At lower points Allherd is clearly better,
 

Well true, but that has less to do with Allherd being really good and more Summoning becoming wonky at lower points. Especially if you decide to keep summoning in Path to Glory.

The weapon, ok maybe it's not as terrible as I think it is, but the problem is that imo there are better BoC items already existing. The Shaggoth already has access to a -2 rend item (bumping his rend on his axe to -3, unless you want to put the rend on a different weapon), the Doombull already has -2 on his axe, so really it is best suited for the beastlord.

But the beastlord has access to the volcanic axe which DOUBLES his damage potential (and with 6 attacks, thats a lot) and gives him a chance to get free Mortal Wounds on top of his damage.

And then theres the multiple ways BoC can improve rend or lower armor saves.

 

I'm not trying to hate on Allherd, I love me Allherd. But there definitely is a Tax associated with taking it. I do think it is useful though when you want to make Chaos Gargants work so they can hug the general and not slip on invisible banana peels!

Edited February 27, 2019 by kenshin620

[Myrdin]

The fact is that Allherd would be really good, of only a line here and there was dropped.

The weapon should start with basic -1 Rending at all times. and -2 at enemies models being 10+ so just reducing the requirements by one tier.

The ability is also good but the limit of your Hero to be within 3" is meh.

The one with battleshock is ALSO good.... if only it wasnt tied to the battle round you are currently in (this one is janky AF, I dont really understand the wording tbh.)

Allherd would be great if only small touch ups were done.

Darkwalkers: trait is meh, +1 to run is nothing of interest. If it was +1 to run and charge now we are talking.

The Desolate shard is a joke of an item. One use, on 4+, D3 AND the enemy must be close to a terrain piece.... yeah right. Drop the One use and then we`ll talk.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Myrdin

[SwampHeart]

1 hour ago, Deadkitten said:

The player with Priority chooses the order in which the triggers stack.

Edit - I misunderstood your point. Are you saying you don't think the bull works on the Gristlgore turn at all or just that it wouldn't prevent him from attacking? The bull 100% works in both players turns - it is not the player with priority who chooses the order for abilities to work, it is the most recent ability (this is stated explicitly in the FAQ). This is why the Taurus works on an IDK player in the high tide turn regardless of who has priority. Hightide and the Gristlegore ability will never be the most recent ability because they're both always on. An example of something that would meaningfully interact with the bull is the hysh command ability because it could be triggered after the bull. The Gristlegore trait however is never activated and thus cannot be the most recent ability. The Wildfire Taurus stops the Gristlegore command trait from functioning, period, end of story. The only "debate" (I don't actually think there is one because its silly RAW) is if the Gristlegore general can fight at all after being affected by the Taurus. 

Edited February 27, 2019 by SwampHeart

[Angoose]

I'm like 90-95% with swamp heart on the bull timing/activation etc etc. 

Bbbbbut, because the taurus is the latest effect doesn't that cancel out the gristle gore command trait. 

Meaning he can activate as per the taurus wording?  As its the newest 'timing' rule for when he activates. 

Even if he can't, he still will after you kill him. 

[SwampHeart]

3 minutes ago, Angoose said:

Meaning he can activate as per the taurus wording?  As its the newest 'timing' rule for when he activates. 

I can see this as a valid stance. Ultimately it isn't something I think is worth spending a ton of time on - just because I feel like any judge is going to tell you 'no you can't stop the monster from fighting at all with your spell'. You're also correct that they'll likely use the CA to fight after death either way, but I'll gladly trade my Enlightened for that thing not being on the table. 

Related to this whole conversation - I recently switched to running 60 raiders in a Desolating Brayherd and they've actually proven quite effective at drilling wounds off large monsters. They're normally generating 50~ hits (after re-rolls and including exploding 6s) which translates into 25~ wounds before saves. They may not kill off a Terrorgheist or Zombie Dragon but they make it really consider its life choices. 

[Angoose]

Yeah, smarter players then me can dissect and discuss this ruling. 

But yes, I would gladly throw a unit away to stop the terror bats just killing stuff every turn. 

Ungor raiders were my go too solution aswell. Large units deep in enemy territory firing all the arrows making it easy to suicide a squad into him and finish the job. 

[Deadkitten]

10 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

Edit - I misunderstood your point. Are you saying you don't think the bull works on the Gristlgore turn at all or just that it wouldn't prevent him from attacking? The bull 100% works in both players turns - it is not the player with priority who chooses the order for abilities to work, it is the most recent ability (this is stated explicitly in the FAQ). This is why the Taurus works on an IDK player in the high tide turn regardless of who has priority. Hightide and the Gristlegore ability will never be the most recent ability because they're both always on. An example of something that would meaningfully interact with the bull is the hysh command ability because it could be triggered after the bull. The Gristlegore trait however is never activated and thus cannot be the most recent ability. The Wildfire Taurus stops the Gristlegore command trait from functioning, period, end of story. The only "debate" (I don't actually think there is one because its silly RAW) is if the Gristlegore general can fight at all after being affected by the Taurus. 

So I'm wrong but for a different reason:

Q: If several abilities are triggered at the same time (at the start 
of a hero phase, for example), how do you determine the order in 
which they are used?
A: If several abilities can be used at the same time, the 
player whose turn is taking place uses their abilities 
first, one after the other, in any order they desire; then 
the player whose turn is not taking place uses their 
abilities, one after another, in any order they desire. 
The same principle applies to any other things – such 
as command traits or artefacts of power – that can be 
used simultaneously.
 

I'm not sure how this ruling interacts with the other one quoted specifically mentioning the Taurus.   My original thinking/understanding was that during the BoC player's turn, when they cast Taurus, that the GK would lose the strike first ability including the part that says he can't fight normally bc the ability was indivisible.  Now I'm really not so sure.  I would need to read up on Endless Spells to see how the triggers happen since they happen at the beginning of the Battle Round before each players' turn.  And I might even be wrong about that part.

That bit I quoted is from the Designers Commentary for the core rules.  

[Malakithe]

Are the God based battalions any good?

[Myrdin]

2 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Are the God based battalions any good?

Khorne is great if the units that are part of it are units you want to play anyway. Has good simple effect.

Nurgle is boring because you cant take Razorgor or Warhounds. The effect itself doesnt really offer anything amazing (if it was D3 then maybe).

Same with Slaanesh. The fact that its ARTEFACT hero only, makes it super pathetic. If it was just HERO in general there might be some semblance of attractiveness for it.

Tzeentch, doesnt really do anything amazing either, but people take so they can one/two drop the entire army on the table. Which is the sole use for this one.

 

None of the battalions makes any use of Chimera, Warhounds, Cockatrice, Giants or Razorgors. Which is REALLY super lame. 

[The_Yellow_Sign]

2 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Are the God based battalions any good?

 Nurgle and Khorne are stronger when used in the respective God Allegiances rather than BoC. For example, notice that Centigors, Chariots, and Bestigors have a built-in +1 hit and the Rotbringer spell Blades of Putrefaction triggers MW on a 6+ to hit. Now get the Glottkin to use his CA for +1 attack and you are putting out a ton of MW.