AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[Myrdin]

So gents, If you noticed GW had a sale of the old Beastmen miniatures like Gorthor, Wargor BSB and such. Now this by itself is "meh who cares unless I want them for collection" type of info since these units were dropped from the current book anyway.

Spoiler

 

But... after our book was released and I skimmed it back and forth a few times, and saw that the BoC as an experiment by GW, overall received a very positive feedback from the gaming community had a thought. If BoC does well, we might see some more units, namely old Named characters (Gorthor, Khazzrak, Morghur and Malagor. These guys had models, old as F, I know but still models never the less), might make an appearance in the form of "expansion pack".

Now this WOULD be amazing thing to happen. (Even more amazing would be for them to actually make new bloody sculpts for those and then release them with new crispy rules, but ah well).

But I am getting to convoluted in my message here - If you read the upper part of this GW update:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/11/02/2nd-nov-the-blood-glory-studio-preview-roundup-extravaganzagw-homepage-post-1/?fbclid=IwAR1gAnOyzi8L3iIVWOsBKK7JeaWUvnfXnW797kaVE3SXtJdvX2WjwqEzFNg

The top part that concerns Beast of Chaos read - bla bla re-release of some old fan favorite models, bla bla, and now the important part:

What’s more, we’ll be giving a host of Beasts of Chaos Heroes and units from the world-that-was a permanent home with a new Warhammer Legends download that lets you field a Chaos Beastmen army of the Old World in narrative and open play. 

Now if this reads the same as my train of thought described above, we might very soon have some old characters make a comeback !

Here is the link to the "Warhammer Legends" heroes compendium:
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/ENG_HEROES_OCTOBER.pdf

So far the heroes like Helleborn, who logically should have "Daughters of Khaine" keyword, do not have that. I hope this will get updated,  since without the keyword this thing is kinda worthless and serves only as a fancy read to see how the old heroes translated into AoS.

What are the odds of them giving the characters proper keywords so they can actually be used in a LEGAL game ?

I mean they thats the least they could do considering we didnt get even a single named char, but its GW so who knows how their brains work.

 

Edit: Yeah ignore what I said... I was hyped for a sec thinking we will get some actual named character back. Nope aint happening. Coz BoC cant have nice thing *sigh*. None of that stuff is compatible with BoC, no keywords and the old Primal Fury is there. It would have been so cool to have Gorthor as the General though. A goat can dream.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Myrdin

[Skoll]

1 hour ago, Myrdin said:

So gents, If you noticed GW had a sale of the old Beastmen miniatures like Gorthor, Wargor BSB and such. Now this by itself is "meh who cares unless I want them for collection" type of info since these units were dropped from the current book anyway.

  Hide contents

 

But... after our book was released and I skimmed it back and forth a few times, and saw that the BoC as an experiment by GW, overall received a very positive feedback from the gaming community had a thought. If BoC does well, we might see some more units, namely old Named characters (Gorthor, Khazzrak, Morghur and Malagor. These guys had models, old as F, I know but still models never the less), might make an appearance in the form of "expansion pack".

Now this WOULD be amazing thing to happen. (Even more amazing would be for them to actually make new bloody sculpts for those and then release them with new crispy rules, but ah well).

But I am getting to convoluted in my message here - If you read the upper part of this GW update:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/11/02/2nd-nov-the-blood-glory-studio-preview-roundup-extravaganzagw-homepage-post-1/?fbclid=IwAR1gAnOyzi8L3iIVWOsBKK7JeaWUvnfXnW797kaVE3SXtJdvX2WjwqEzFNg

The top part that concerns Beast of Chaos read - bla bla re-release of some old fan favorite models, bla bla, and now the important part:

What’s more, we’ll be giving a host of Beasts of Chaos Heroes and units from the world-that-was a permanent home with a new Warhammer Legends download that lets you field a Chaos Beastmen army of the Old World in narrative and open play. 

Now if this reads the same as my train of thought described above, we might very soon have some old characters make a comeback !

Here is the link to the "Warhammer Legends" heroes compendium:
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/ENG_HEROES_OCTOBER.pdf

So far the heroes like Helleborn, who logically should have "Daughters of Khaine" keyword, do not have that. I hope this will get updated,  since without the keyword this thing is kinda worthless and serves only as a fancy read to see how the old heroes translated into AoS.

What are the odds of them giving the characters proper keywords so they can actually be used in a LEGAL game ?

I mean they thats the least they could do considering we didnt get even a single named char, but its GW so who knows how their brains work.

 

Edit: Yeah ignore what I said... I was hyped for a sec thinking we will get some actual named character back. Nope aint happening. Coz BoC cant have nice thing *sigh*. None of that stuff is compatible with BoC, no keywords and the old Primal Fury is there. It would have been so cool to have Gorthor as the General though. A goat can dream.

I would have liked the brass bull to actually get a sculpt and rules. Woulf have made a fantastic centerpiece for the army and a hell of a killy character.

[The_Yellow_Sign]

7 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Plus if you compare them to Enlightened who are 120 pts cheaper when in a unit of 6 (that price difference is LITERALLY an extra unit of Bestigors), those can deal more damage still, even without the rerolls. If you get those, they will not justf "finish off" big stuff like Nagash. They will "wipe stuff of the board period".

Just for imagination - 3 of these guys wiped a unit of 5 Demigryph Knights. WITHOUT re-rolls or Tzaan shaman. Yes I rolled really well, but still. Thats 20 Wounds 4+ reroll 1 Save, just "poof"... gone.
So yeah, I mean, its cool and all, but compared to Enlightened, for those 200 pts, I just dont feel them. They could be good with lower cost, but as they are now, they are overpriced and that fact can not be disputed.

That's your opinion, and I dispute it. 

I used to be a naysayer as well, who thought Skyfires were ******, until I learned how to use them correctly and did the maths on their melee output.  And it's not just theory-crafting: I won a tournament with them recently, and they were extremely effective in play. 

As I said before, Enlightened and Skyfires fulfill very different roles so it's doesn't matter that Enlightened have better melee output. If the Skyfires' melee output was even close to Enlightened, they would obviously be ridiculously OP.  

Shooting is still very important in AoS 2.0, especially when facing an army which relies on big centre-piece heroes like Alarielle, Durthu, or Nagash, or a skilled opponent who uses screens and chaff effectively.  Skyfires give you an incredibly fast flying unit that is able to both shoot and fight in melee, and they are quite good at both of these roles, as the maths shows.

They are basically the analog of renaissance-era dragoon troops. But unlike historical dragoons, who used shorter-ranged weapons like pistols, Skyfires have crazy-good range---they're like dragoons with sniper rifles. Ungor Raiders, who need to be in big blocks of 30+ to pose a serious threat, can be screened away from shooting down Nagash since they only have 18" range and a big footprint. Your opponent cannot safely hide Nagash from Skyfires, since they fly and have 24" range.

The two units also synergize well together because Enlightened like to go second, sitting behind a chaff screen, whereas Skyfires like to go first. Enlightened do not want to  waste time fighting chaff and then get countercharged---you want to get them fighting against the elite infantry ASAP. With their range and speed, Skyfires can fight on multiple fronts, removing chaff screens or wounding heroes halfway across the board, while charging down and wiping another unit and taking objectives.

Skyfires are not "the ultimate unit" that you need to spam like in AoS 1.0 Tzeentch lists. They are not a Raider-replacement. They are just a very useful tool in your toolbox, which you should strongly consider taking in a unit of 6 if you have a Tzaangor shaman in your list, which you should have anyway if you're taking Enlightened. 

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by The_Yellow_Sign

[decker_cky]

10 hours ago, Myrdin said:

So gents, If you noticed GW had a sale of the old Beastmen miniatures like Gorthor, Wargor BSB and such. Now this by itself is "meh who cares unless I want them for collection" type of info since these units were dropped from the current book anyway.

  Hide contents

 

But... after our book was released and I skimmed it back and forth a few times, and saw that the BoC as an experiment by GW, overall received a very positive feedback from the gaming community had a thought. If BoC does well, we might see some more units, namely old Named characters (Gorthor, Khazzrak, Morghur and Malagor. These guys had models, old as F, I know but still models never the less), might make an appearance in the form of "expansion pack".

Now this WOULD be amazing thing to happen. (Even more amazing would be for them to actually make new bloody sculpts for those and then release them with new crispy rules, but ah well).

But I am getting to convoluted in my message here - If you read the upper part of this GW update:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/11/02/2nd-nov-the-blood-glory-studio-preview-roundup-extravaganzagw-homepage-post-1/?fbclid=IwAR1gAnOyzi8L3iIVWOsBKK7JeaWUvnfXnW797kaVE3SXtJdvX2WjwqEzFNg

The top part that concerns Beast of Chaos read - bla bla re-release of some old fan favorite models, bla bla, and now the important part:

What’s more, we’ll be giving a host of Beasts of Chaos Heroes and units from the world-that-was a permanent home with a new Warhammer Legends download that lets you field a Chaos Beastmen army of the Old World in narrative and open play. 

Now if this reads the same as my train of thought described above, we might very soon have some old characters make a comeback !

Here is the link to the "Warhammer Legends" heroes compendium:
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/ENG_HEROES_OCTOBER.pdf

So far the heroes like Helleborn, who logically should have "Daughters of Khaine" keyword, do not have that. I hope this will get updated,  since without the keyword this thing is kinda worthless and serves only as a fancy read to see how the old heroes translated into AoS.

What are the odds of them giving the characters proper keywords so they can actually be used in a LEGAL game ?

I mean they thats the least they could do considering we didnt get even a single named char, but its GW so who knows how their brains work.

 

Edit: Yeah ignore what I said... I was hyped for a sec thinking we will get some actual named character back. Nope aint happening. Coz BoC cant have nice thing *sigh*. None of that stuff is compatible with BoC, no keywords and the old Primal Fury is there. It would have been so cool to have Gorthor as the General though. A goat can dream.

I use the wargor BSB model as a beastlord with a gorgeous banner. It's a great model that's worth owning for the model alone (it's what sold me on beasts of chaos back in the day).

I'm considering loading up on pestigors while the getting's good. That might depend on how they bundle the models (back in the day, it was a box set of 10 rank and file, with a blister for the champion and a blister for the musician and standard, while I'd prefer if they were bundled 10 including full command). 

[Myrdin]

1 hour ago, decker_cky said:

I use the wargor BSB model as a beastlord with a gorgeous banner. It's a great model that's worth owning for the model alone (it's what sold me on beasts of chaos back in the day).

I'm considering loading up on pestigors while the getting's good. That might depend on how they bundle the models (back in the day, it was a box set of 10 rank and file, with a blister for the champion and a blister for the musician and standard, while I'd prefer if they were bundled 10 including full command). 

Honestly I never even knew we had an official BSB model up to this point. I converted mine from the metal casted Beastlord and a Ogre Banner with a bestigor axe.

As for the pestigors, I think you might be a little to late. I cant find them in the shop anymore just like all the other stuff. It seems that it was a very time limited offer.

10 hours ago, Skoll said:

I would have liked the brass bull to actually get a sculpt and rules. Woulf have made a fantastic centerpiece for the army and a hell of a killy character.

Personally I would like to see Ghorros. Always liked the idea of a huge drunken horny Centigor who buffs your other centigors

Though fluff wise my favorite would  be Khazzrak. His rules aint that great but from the lore perspective I always like this cunning beastlord

[decker_cky]

7 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Honestly I never even knew we had an official BSB model up to this point. I converted mine from the metal casted Beastlord and a Ogre Banner with a bestigor axe.

It was only available in a beastmen armybox that came out with the 6th edition book, which included a pretty lackluster selection of models (I know for sure there were chaos ogres in it).

Quote

As for the pestigors, I think you might be a little to late. I cant find them in the shop anymore just like all the other stuff. It seems that it was a very time limited offer.

I think the models will be available as of this saturday for a week. 

[Johann]

6 hours ago, decker_cky said:

It was only available in a beastmen armybox that came out with the 6th edition book, which included a pretty lackluster selection of models (I know for sure there were chaos ogres in it).

Beastlord with big chopper

BSB

Shaman

Ungors 

Gors

Centigors

Chaostrolls 

Chaosogers

 

Still remember, when I opened the box - good times ?

 

[cranect]

I have been having a lot of fun with a khorne allegiance list for buffing the beasts. 

It is 

Doombull

2 units of 6 Bullgors

1 unit of 3 Bullgors

30 Reavers

2 Slaughterpriests the one with Axe is general with the ability to generate extra blood tithe when he kills heroes and monsters and slays at least 1 model

2 Blood Secrators 1 with the banner of Rage

5 Wrathmongers

Brass Despoilers

I have only played against Ironjawz so far since that is what my main opponent plays. Last time the buffed up bulls killed the 30 man block of ard boyz in one round. 3 of them with just the blood secrator killed the mawcrusha. I definitely think the list will not perform as well against some of the other armies but I cant wait to try it. I used to run a doombull, 3 units of 6 bulls, and 3 ghorgons and a cygor. That was my list almost since the start of Sigmar. This one dishes out even more damage and is what I have been planning since the one story in the Godbeasts book. Has anyone else tried thks sort of thing as well? Any tips for dealing with some of the more shooting heavy armies? The combat armies can be mulched pretty easily by making them kkll the reavers and then piling the bulls in for maximum murder.

[decker_cky]

5 hours ago, Johann said:

Beastlord with big chopper

BSB

Shaman

Ungors 

Gors

Centigors

Chaostrolls 

Chaosogers

 

Still remember, when I opened the box - good times ?

 

Lies! There were no gor or ungor units in those days...only beast herds.

 

Thought I remembered centigors and chaos trolls in the box, but wasn't confident. Makes sense though - the ogres, trolls and centigors were all horrid and I remember the box being lackluster.

[Tasman]

10 hours ago, cranect said:

I have been having a lot of fun with a khorne allegiance list for buffing the beasts. 

It is 

Doombull

2 units of 6 Bullgors

1 unit of 3 Bullgors

30 Reavers

2 Slaughterpriests the one with Axe is general with the ability to generate extra blood tithe when he kills heroes and monsters and slays at least 1 model

2 Blood Secrators 1 with the banner of Rage

5 Wrathmongers

Brass Despoilers

I have only played against Ironjawz so far since that is what my main opponent plays. Last time the buffed up bulls killed the 30 man block of ard boyz in one round. 3 of them with just the blood secrator killed the mawcrusha. I definitely think the list will not perform as well against some of the other armies but I cant wait to try it. I used to run a doombull, 3 units of 6 bulls, and 3 ghorgons and a cygor. That was my list almost since the start of Sigmar. This one dishes out even more damage and is what I have been planning since the one story in the Godbeasts book. Has anyone else tried thks sort of thing as well? Any tips for dealing with some of the more shooting heavy armies? The combat armies can be mulched pretty easily by making them kkll the reavers and then piling the bulls in for maximum murder.

If the slaughter priest is your general, then you only have one battle line.....

[cranect]

Sorry I forgot to put that it was 3 units of 10 reavers. No clue why I did that unit differently up above.

[Kaleb Daark]

On 11/8/2018 at 9:08 PM, Skoll said:

I would have liked the brass bull to actually get a sculpt and rules. Woulf have made a fantastic centerpiece for the army and a hell of a killy character.

Of all the characters to make a return to the realms he morghur and Malagor would probably be most likely candidates - the brass bull after all was infused with daemon essence after biting the head off the bloodletter champion, and more importantly in him we have a khorne hero who is a combat machine - as they should be - also (for me selfishly)  he could lead a full blown khorne army.

Now that thanquol is back (curtesy of the new gotrek audio book) anything is possible.

I also think I heard right that the old beastmen khorngors and pestigors were coming up in the next round last chance to buy.

[Skoll]

4 hours ago, Kaleb Daark said:

Of all the characters to make a return to the realms he morghur and Malagor would probably be most likely candidates - the brass bull after all was infused with daemon essence after biting the head off the bloodletter champion, and more importantly in him we have a khorne hero who is a combat machine - as they should be - also (for me selfishly)  he could lead a full blown khorne army.

Now that thanquol is back (curtesy of the new gotrek audio book) anything is possible.

I also think I heard right that the old beastmen khorngors and pestigors were coming up in the next round last chance to buy.

I don't believe they'll receive rules however

[kenshin620]

Man they still look pretty dang neat for such old models

I kind of just noticed though how most of them dont have eyes! I guess they can smell their prey!

[Skoll]

Here i thought it was going to be the really ancient khornegors with hound faces

[Myrdin]

Well, compared to new stuff like Tzaangors (finally assembled my Enlightened and 3 skyfires. Bloody hell, those are some amazing sculpts, and the horns are super cool), or the latest AoS stuff they certainly do feel aged. Compared to the usual Beastmen stuff I think they do look old as well, but not as badly as when put next to the most updated shiny stuff.

Would be really cool to get some BoC love and actuall KEYWORDED rules for these guys and all (since the named characters being "Legends" only left a lot of salt in my mouth and honestly was quite the let down.)

But yeah, seeing thess guys, only reinforces my love for Beastmen as one of the coolest, most unique looking armies out there.

I am still hoping that if BoC as a whole does well in the sales departmen, we might see some new units/named chars. with additionally released rules as add ons to the army. Like what the Khorne guys got recently - the big duded on even bigger dragon comes to mind.

And with Slaanesh release drawing near.... Slaangors, (and Khorngors and Pestigors...) with their own proper and well thought of rules ? (I goatman can dream right ?) ......oooooh boy !

Edited November 11, 2018 by Myrdin

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

22 hours ago, Kaleb Daark said:

Of all the characters to make a return to the realms he morghur and Malagor would probably be most likely candidates - the brass bull after all was infused with daemon essence after biting the head off the bloodletter champion, and more importantly in him we have a khorne hero who is a combat machine - as they should be - also (for me selfishly)  he could lead a full blown khorne army.

Now that thanquol is back (curtesy of the new gotrek audio book) anything is possible.

I also think I heard right that the old beastmen khorngors and pestigors were coming up in the next round last chance to buy.

Maybe try the spoiler filter next time! I e only just started listening lol

[kenshin620]

I found the perfect non gw product for Beasts of Chaos!

?

Spoiler

 

[SwampHeart]

Played in another 3 game 1 day-er this weekend. Decided to try something very different from my usual builds. Went 2-0-1 with the list and got 2nd (lost out to DoK) but it was fun to go in a different direction than usual. the list was:

-Dragon Ogre Shaggoth - General (Ancient Beyond Knowing), Hailstorm
-Great Bray Shaman - The Knowing Eye, Vicious Stranglethorns
-Tzaangor Shaman - Gryphfeather Charm, Tendrils of Atrophy
-40x Ungors - Spears
-10x Ungors
-10x Ungors
-10x Ungor Raiders
-10x Ungor Raiders
-10x Bestigors
-6x Skyfires
-6x Enlightened on Disc
Phantasmagoria of Fate

[Myrdin]

2 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

I found the perfect non gw product for Beasts of Chaos!

?

  Hide contents

 

This is exactly what I said to a friend of mine. "Unlike other factions, BoC collectors are not really players, they ar farmers and ranch owners "

Edited November 12, 2018 by Myrdin

[Skreech Verminking]

21 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

Man they still look pretty dang neat for such old models

I kind of just noticed though how most of them dont have eyes! I guess they can smell their prey!

I see a possibility of using those miniatures as Bestigors for a Nurgle/khorne battailon styles army 

[jkav86]

So I picked up some tzaangors and I was wondering if people had some suggestions on how to build them.

[Pandamina]

1 hour ago, jkav86 said:

So I picked up some tzaangors and I was wondering if people had some suggestions on how to build them.

This is how i assembled mine:
paired blades x3
greatblade x2
mutant x2
musician with greatblade
champion with greatblade
iconbearer with shield
 

[decker_cky]

So GW is asking for feedback for GHB 2019. Here's my view:

• Gors - I'm not sure Gors would be taken even at 70/180 pts.  Given their base size and stats, and compared to Marauders, I believe they would be justified as a 60/160 pt unit. That might be a bit agressive and 70/180 might be enough. 
• Minotaurs - Glass hammer is tough to value, but I am not sure they are better value than Bestigors. 140 pts base, plus they should have a horde discount.
• Bestigors - Probably too cheap at min sized, but I'm not sure they're underpriced at horde size (due to the number of buffs that require the unit to be wholly within range) - 140/300 is probably fair
• Tzaangors - Good at min size. Given the nerf to large units, and the  fact that their buffs are now "wholly within", need a bigger horde discount 180/400. 
• Skyfires - Should be 160 pts
• Enlightened on foot - OK as is
• Enlightened on disc - Should be 160 pts
• Tzaangor shaman - no longer summons new units, so doesn't need the premium price. Should be 20 pts cheaper. 
• Warhounds - 60 pts base, plus should have a horde discount. 
• Chaos Spawn - 40 pts
• Jabberslythe - Needs to be cheaper
• Great bray shaman - probably actually worth 120 pts
• Chariots - 50 pts
• Brass Despoilers (190 p): Fair value
• Phantasmagoria of Fate (200 p): Weakest battalion  benefit because you want to take it in armies that already want lots of wizards, but flexible and includes good units. 120 pts
• Pestilent Throng (200 p): 150 pts would be fair. 
• Depraved Drove (150 p): Fair value. 
• Desolating Beastherd (150 p): Fair value
• Hungering Warherd (150 p): Inflexible and weak, should be cheap. 100 pts
• Marauding Brayherd (180 p): Huge unit tax, should be very cheap: 60 pts
• Thunderscorn Stormherd (190 p): Inflexible, but decent benefit. 120 pts

[Skoll]

40 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

So GW is asking for feedback for GHB 2019. Here's my view:

• Gors - I'm not sure Gors would be taken even at 70/180 pts.  Given their base size and stats, and compared to Marauders, I believe they would be justified as a 60/160 pt unit. That might be a bit agressive and 70/180 might be enough. 
• Minotaurs - Glass hammer is tough to value, but I am not sure they are better value than Bestigors. 140 pts base, plus they should have a horde discount.
• Bestigors - Probably too cheap at min sized, but I'm not sure they're underpriced at horde size (due to the number of buffs that require the unit to be wholly within range) - 140/300 is probably fair
• Tzaangors - Good at min size. Given the nerf to large units, and the  fact that their buffs are now "wholly within", need a bigger horde discount 180/400. 
• Skyfires - Should be 160 pts
• Enlightened on foot - OK as is
• Enlightened on disc - Should be 160 pts
• Tzaangor shaman - no longer summons new units, so doesn't need the premium price. Should be 20 pts cheaper. 
• Warhounds - 60 pts base, plus should have a horde discount. 
• Chaos Spawn - 40 pts
• Jabberslythe - Needs to be cheaper
• Great bray shaman - probably actually worth 120 pts
• Chariots - 50 pts
• Brass Despoilers (190 p): Fair value
• Phantasmagoria of Fate (200 p): Weakest battalion  benefit because you want to take it in armies that already want lots of wizards, but flexible and includes good units. 120 pts
• Pestilent Throng (200 p): 150 pts would be fair. 
• Depraved Drove (150 p): Fair value. 
• Desolating Beastherd (150 p): Fair value
• Hungering Warherd (150 p): Inflexible and weak, should be cheap. 100 pts
• Marauding Brayherd (180 p): Huge unit tax, should be very cheap: 60 pts
• Thunderscorn Stormherd (190 p): Inflexible, but decent benefit. 120 pts

bullgors should be 120 for how poorly supported they are internally tbh. that or be moved to 3+ to hit and remain at same price.